Eastern Europe/Ukraine

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Mar 2014 23:47

TSJ,

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that it is the usual European local power play, same crap as they tried with Catholic Croatia/Orthodox Serbia... Overstretch, and they want the US to foot the bill as well as provide the military heft, neither of which it is in the mood to do. So the EU (god alone knows why they want to bring Ukraine into the grouping) pushes for the western Ukraine (mainly Catholic?), while the Orthodox pro-Russian side is not all that interesting, and Crimea certainly not... Now they've stirred the kitchen pot but don't want to eat the food (remember Libya?)... The Ukrainian "nationalists" meanwhile have all gotten hot and bothered, trotted out their neo-nazi paraphernalia and are spoiling for a fight. The saner elements are not that eager, they know bloody well what that means ...

No skin of our backs, just sit back and watch them go at it (or pull back, with palms outward and big grins). There is no "hate" USA here, just pointing out the idiocy of making all these grandiose statements when no one is about to do jack; when you can't bloody sustain a campaign against rifle-toting Afghans, wise to keep your counsel. Let the Euros who started cooking this dish (just like in Libya) provide the ingredients to make it turn out right. If the Americans are unenthusiastic, you will find the European ardour for democracy in Ukraine cooling substantially... Either way though, not many will bother in the Middle East or Asia...

As for the high tech luxury items, fat lot of good it did in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan - what has the US really gotten out of it that it couldn't have without expending all those American lives there?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 02 Mar 2014 23:51

It is indeed strange how western government gave legitimacy to a government that overthrew elected government in majority.

There seem to be no 'international' standards that would allow this so this must be a western specialty. Gives new meaning to words like 'international', 'western', 'legitimacy' etc.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 02 Mar 2014 23:57

vishvak wrote:USA won't mind if a country prefers to buy goods and weaponry from USA instead of Russia. Same for Europeans. Never mind NGOs from USA, in this case started by eBay founder, meddling and muddling without any clear cut benefits.

Pierre Omidyar may call himself "American" but I call him an a***ole. He is Glen Greenwald's buddy and financial backer. his home address is Henderson NV but that is just his tax address. who knows where he really lives? he is trying to start his own media company. To me he is just another rupert murdock flying a flag of convenience.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 03 Mar 2014 00:08

JE Menon wrote:As for the high tech luxury items, fat lot of good it did in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan - what has the US really gotten out of it that it couldn't have without expending all those American lives there?

One would hope that the wannabe euros would need very little direction in the use and craft there of. Hopefully they can also shoot straight. one never knows I suppose.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2014 00:09

rohitvats wrote:What is quite obvious from the developments in Ukraine is that west, especially America, seems to have devised newer methods of undermining countries; they are preying on existing fault-lines and propping up anyone who they feel can further their agenda. ..The naive and gullible population is exploited on the strength of their grievances and by using the cry of 'freedom' and 'democracy' and carrot of economic 'benefits' + friendly loans from international donor agencies.
We, as a nation, need to watch out for many such fault-lines exist in our case and there is no dearth of willing accomplices and village idiots masquerading as intellectuals...a nation needs strong internal security apparatus, armed forces, economy and political leadership to quell such challenges to nation's integrity and sovereignty.

Following on massive "civil" upheavals will be "protection of the rights of civilians" leading to UN/ International Tribunals to threaten elected rulers. This seems to be the point of the Berkeley FOIL scam (see JEM post under the US-India Tamasha Dhaga).

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 03 Mar 2014 00:17

>>One would hope that the wannabe euros would need very little direction in the use and craft there of. Hopefully they can also shoot straight. one never knows I suppose.

Sure, they can shoot straight, and may be able to use stuff like a smartphone, etc., for purposes other than which they were intended. But whom are they going to shoot at? The Russians are not dumb, they will not get into a shooting war against Ukrainian nationalists ... it will be Ukrainians of Russian extraction who do that. So we're talking civil war... and who will win from that? Neither the Euros, the Euro wannabes, the US or the Russians...

Like I said, it seems the Euros haven't learned from the two wars of the 20th century. And it's exactly one century later. 2014. Ominous.

I hope they have the good sense to chill the fu(k down... And by the way, it won't be just the US supplying weapons... There are countries outside the continent who may find it prudent to keep the Euros occupied in their own backyard, than messing about creating ethnic and sectarian strife in their neck of the woods. On the whole, it's not good at all.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 03 Mar 2014 00:32

Soudis will be jumping in joy to fund any such civil war. However I dont expect it to be there, because civil wars do not allow pipelines to work.

So I will expect Russia to jump in full scale. It will establish a temporary even if not recognised rule for two years and then leave.

If this was after south stream pipeline started running, expected late 2015, the russians would have said go on, let the civil war circus begin. Even now with nord stream project complete, only the transit countries will suffer, but the west european consumers are good.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Mar 2014 00:50

It is really amusing to see 'dark' hints of western countries pulling Russians into a civil war by arming the 'wannabe' Europeans and nationalists in Ukraine...As JEM said, it takes two to tango. Russians can play this game equally well w/o playing by western script. The end result will be cleavage of Ukraine across ethnic/linguistic lines. So, fat load of good is going to come to Ukraine by going down that route.

Further, it is one thing to arm militias in far away nations w/o the prospect of blow-back and it another to have civil war at your doorstep. It is anyone's guess as to how many ethnic fault-lines it might open in Europe. Not to mention the refugee problem. Will see how big hearted Europeans are then about human rights and associated paraphernalia.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 03 Mar 2014 00:54

Rohitvats,

Do we really think that these "pure" euro and nato countries care about ukraine?

The refugees will be buffeted by the second class euros, the eastern ones. They are not the ones who are jumping up and down to create a civil war. Oh!, they especially poland supports the coup, but they also do not want to have a civil war.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2014 01:16

Crimea forms its own fleet as Ukraine Navy chief sides with region. Rear admiral Denis Berezovsky, appointed as head of Ukraine's Navy forces just two days ago, has sworn allegiance to the people of Crimea. Taking his oath, regional Prime Minister Sergey Aksyonov announced creating Crimea's Navy.

Ukraine Navy's flagship flies Russian flag

What does this do to Ukraine's control of the rest of its Black Sea coast? Isn't Odessa in Ukraine? Surprisingly no news about it so far.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2014 04:39

A few facts to keep in mind:

In 1954 Khrushchev gifted Crimea to Ukraine. It was part of Russia till then. In fact the 1858 Crimean war was about that region.

1956 Hungary, Romania in 1968, Georgia 2006 all show Russia intervened when its near abroad was violated.
Russia did not intervene in Poland nor East Germany when the Berlin Wall fell.

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Mar 2014 06:40

that the United States of Cavity Searches despite being one of the most discredited countries of the globe in the 21st century, can STILL find agent provocateurs in various parts of the world to do their bidding is what amazes one the most.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 06:42

Culinary have long history of using eccentric billionaires as cover.
remember Howard Hughes and his billion dollar glomar explorer James bond ship was used to try and lift
the k129 sub off the deep pacific floor.

today it will be valley wolves spreading piss nd fleadom around trouble spots.
so far indics have not made it to omidyar level as founders but wait and watch.

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Mar 2014 06:47

Ya, they can always blackmail some influential locals and use them as a cover. As if these puppets are instrumental in planning & executing the entire thing. Culinary has nothing else to do, other than being a devil's workshop 24X7. The entire organisation is an agent of external destabilization. & 400 of them are in dilli building links and creating ground work for a similar revolution in desh. Give it some time & they will create an Omidyar out of a Premjee, while the UPA keeps feeding milk to these snakes on some pretext or another.

One must remember how even before the election results in India are announced, both Ambani-lets and US ambassador rush to greet the victor, and that is how us commons get the hint of who won the elections. These are all culinary network influence at work, and it is them who get to know thing first in this blighted land.

partha · Post by **partha** » 03 Mar 2014 06:56

There is an interesting pic floating around online. It is a pic of a pro Ukraine protest in London. There is a banner with an Iranian flag which reads (paraphrasing) - "Do you (west / US) want this country to give up nukes? Ukraine gave up nukes based on your word and see what's happening to it. What's your word worth?".

I am sure countries like Iran, Japan, SoKo are closely watching and analyzing the Ukraine crisis.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 03 Mar 2014 07:32

partha wrote:There is an interesting pic floating around online. It is a pic of a pro Ukraine protest in London. There is a banner with an Iranian flag which reads (paraphrasing) - "Do you (west / US) want this country to give up nukes? Ukraine gave up nukes based on your word and see what's happening to it. What's your word worth?".

I am sure countries like Iran, Japan, SoKo are closely watching and analyzing the Ukraine crisis.

go nuclear? are you kidding? geezus....thre was never any, and i mean none...us garuantees to ukraine. the us has a signed military agreement with soko and japan. but truely the us thinks it can handle any threat to soko and japan w/o nukes. we think, no, make that *know* we got the conventional mo jo to get the job done. and we are stacking 'em high and going deep even as i write this.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Mar 2014 07:51

Under "Surrender Singh",India is not even "the tick on the hair of the tail of the pup" in the international pecking order of influential states.Even now our "mannequins"....oops! sorry,"mandarins" of the MEA will be watching O'Bomber and Kerry on telly, trying to imitate their mouthings.

In he context of the Ukranian crisis and boundaries created without historical groundings,here is a brilliant piece from Robert Fisk,Midddle East expert,that shows how the West/colonialists screwed up the MEast and the same tribe is now trying to screw up the rest of the world.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 63596.html
Robert Fisk

Sunday 2 March 2014
Robert Fisk: Were it not for the French, Hezbollah would all be Syrians fighting on their own government’s side inside their own country
And you thought the Middle East was a difficult place to understand. Try living here

[quote]
Borders are becoming a bit odd in the Middle East. They always have been, of course. Ever since Mark Sykes and François Georges Picot – the latter a former French consul in Beirut, by the way, who cost a lot of brave Lebanese their lives by his carelessness in sealing their anti-Ottoman letters behind an embassy wall – divvied up the Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Palestine, etc, one lot of Arabs (or their grandchildren) found themselves living as hated refugees not many miles from their original homes, cursed and spat at and sometimes killed by another lot of Arabs who turned out to be – much to their own surprise, in some cases – Lebanese or Syrians.

Then we come to the question of a state called Israel which exists in a land that was called Palestine, 22 per cent of which – and the percentage is growing smaller by the day – is supposed to be called “Palestine”. Well, maybe.

Which brings me to the point. For last week, the Strategic Affairs Minister – is there any other nation on earth which has such a ministry, I ask myself? – of Israel, warned Lebanon that it must prevent Hezbollah (Iranian-armed, Syrian-supported, you know the usual and true clichés) from attacking Israel in reprisal for Israel’s attack on a weapons convoy – an attack which, as is often the case, Israel didn’t actually admit to having carried out.

So let’s get this straight. And I start with a weird quotation from the Reuters news agency. “Israel warned Lebanon Friday to prevent a Hezbollah [sic] retaliation for an alleged [sic] Israeli air strike on a site used by the party on [sic] the Syrian border.” What? Reuters editors had hit a factual problem, of course. The Israelis didn’t actually admit that they had bombed the weapons inside Lebanon, so the agency had to fudge the strike which Israel had not admitted to staging – Israel’s confirmation being needed for any statement of fact in the Middle East – while at the same time referring to the air strike which hundreds of Lebanese in the Bekaa Valley had actually witnessed as “alleged”. Oddly, even Hezbollah didn’t admit this in the beginning. No problem, I suppose, if the air raid had been staged inside the Syrian border – like another three such attacks, also unconfirmed by the Israelis.

But let’s get back to Yuval Steinitz – the aforesaid Israeli minister – who claimed that “it is self-evident that we see Lebanon as responsible for any attack on Israel from the territory of Lebanon”. Israel, according to the same Reuters report, has promised to destroy “thousands” of residential buildings that it claims Hezbollah uses as bases. This is even more odd. For many years – and I have been a witness to five of these wars, although Israel claims only to have fought three of them – I have seen thousands and thousands of “residential” buildings blown to bits by Israel which were not Hezbollah bases. So is Mr Steinitz actually being more restrained than his predecessors? Is he saying that Israel may attack only those residential buildings that Hezbollah is using – and not any other residential buildings that may be in the area? If, of course, Hezbollah retaliates for the Israeli air raid that may – or may not – have happened? And just to finish with the crazed editors at Reuters, the agency report has one more wonderful line which I must share with you. “Israel is technically at war with Lebanon and Syria.” Well, blow me down!

A picture taken from the Lebanese village of Adaysseh shows Israeli soldiers patrolling along the Israeli-Lebanese border on January 20, 2014. (Getty ImageS)
So back to borders. There were, many decades ago, several villages in Lebanon which the French handed over to the Brits – when the Brits ran “Palestine” and the French controlled Lebanon and Syria (Lebanon being a part of Syria until the French chopped it off as a useful ally for future years). A lot of Lebanese, born into the Ottoman Empire, therefore woke up one morning and found they were no longer Lebanese – but Palestinian. And when the Israelis arrived in Galilee and did a spot of ethnic cleansing (see the work of that fine Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, among others), some of these former Lebanese – but now Palestinian – folk were murdered. The rest were thrown out of Israel (formerly Palestine) and into Lebanon – where most of them were born – as refugee Palestinians. A few years ago, they were actually given Lebanese passports – so they knew at last that they were no longer Palestinians.

There can’t be many still alive, although – if they had driven a few miles north of their present homes in Lebanon last week – they might have witnessed the air raid on Lebanon which was only “alleged” to have happened, thus observing an attack by a country which expelled them from “Palestine” to a country they had actually been born in, an air assault which may not have actually happened because the country they were not born in did not claim that it had actually attacked the country of which they are now (again) citizens.

And you, Readers, thought the Middle East was a difficult place to understand. Try living here.

Well, let’s get back to Syria for a moment. As you know, there’s been a civil war going on there for more than two years. Hezbollah is fighting on the side of Bashar al-Assad’s government – a heinous offence in the eyes of the Western governments which allowed France to chop Lebanon off from Syria after the First World War. Had the French not done so, of course, Hezbollah would all be Syrians fighting on their own government’s side inside their own country and would thus not have offended us by crossing the border which we Westerners created against the wishes of their grandfathers. And in which case, the Israelis would not have to warn Lebanon about Hezbollah reprisals for an air raid which might – or might not – have been made on Lebanon by Israel but which would – if we hadn’t created Lebanon – have been the fourth attack of its kind by Israel on Syria, always supposing that Israel “acknowledged” that it had attacked Syria in the first place.
[/b]

PS:And now the newly appointed Ukranian Navy chief has defected to Russia. What a farce!

partha · Post by **partha** » 03 Mar 2014 07:53

TSJones wrote:
partha wrote:There is an interesting pic floating around online. It is a pic of a pro Ukraine protest in London. There is a banner with an Iranian flag which reads (paraphrasing) - "Do you (west / US) want this country to give up nukes? Ukraine gave up nukes based on your word and see what's happening to it. What's your word worth?".

I am sure countries like Iran, Japan, SoKo are closely watching and analyzing the Ukraine crisis.
go nuclear? are you kidding? geezus....thre was never any, and i mean none...us garuantees to ukraine. the us has a signed military agreement with soko and japan. but truely the us thinks it can handle any threat to soko and japan w/o nukes. we think, no, make that *know* we got the conventional mo jo to get the job done. and we are stacking 'em high and going deep even as i write this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_M ... Assurances

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Mar 2014 08:00

The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off
The hysterical reaction to Russian military movements in Crimea won't help. Only Kiev can stop this crisis becoming a catastrophe

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... d-back-off
Jonathan Steele
The Guardian, Sunday 2 March 2014

Simferopol, Crimea, on 2 March. ‘Underlying the crisis in Crimea and Russia’s fierce resistance to potential changes is Nato’s undisguised ambition to continue two decades of expansion.' Photograph: Ivan Sekretarev/AP

Both John Kerry's threats to expel Russia from the G8 and the Ukrainian government's plea for Nato aid mark a dangerous escalation of a crisis that can easily be contained if cool heads prevail. Hysteria seems to be the mood in Washington and Kiev, with the new Ukrainian prime minister claiming, "We are on the brink of disaster" as he calls up army reserves in response to Russian military movements in Crimea.

Were he talking about the country's economic plight he would have a point. Instead, along with much of the US and European media, he was over-dramatising developments in the east, where Russian speakers are understandably alarmed after the new Kiev authorities scrapped a law allowing Russian as an official language in their areas. They see it as proof that the anti-Russian ultra-nationalists from western Ukraine who were the dominant force in last month's insurrection still control it. Eastern Ukrainians fear similar tactics of storming public buildings could be used against their elected officials.

Kerry's rush to punish Russia and Nato's decision to respond to Kiev's call by holding a meeting of member states' ambassadors in Brussels today were mistakes. Ukraine is not part of the alliance, so none of the obligations of common defence come into play. Nato should refrain from interfering in Ukraine by word or deed. The fact that it insists on getting engaged reveals the elephant in the room: underlying the crisis in Crimea and Russia's fierce resistance to potential changes is Nato's undisguised ambition to continue two decades of expansion into what used to be called "post-Soviet space", led by Bill Clinton and taken up by successive administrations in Washington. At the back of Pentagon minds, no doubt, is the dream that a US navy will one day replace the Russian Black Sea fleet in the Crimean ports of Sevastopol and Balaclava.

Since independence, every poll in Ukraine has shown a majority against Nato membership, yet one after another the elites who ran the country until 2010 and who are now back in charge ignored the popular will. Seduced by Nato's largesse and the feeling of being part of a hi-tech global club, they took part in joint military exercises and even sent Ukrainian troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.

The deposed Viktor Yanukovych, for all his incompetence, corruption and abuse of power, was the first president to oppose Nato membership in his election campaign and then persuade parliament to make non-alignment the cornerstone of the country's security strategy, on the pattern of Finland, Ireland and Sweden. Nato refused to accept it. As recently as 1 February, before the latest crisis, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the empire-building secretary general, told a security conference in Munich: "Ukraine must have the freedom to choose its own path without external pressure." The implication was clear: if only it were not for those beastly Russians, Ukraine would be one of us. Had Rasmussen said: "Ukraine has chosen nonalignment and we respect that choice," he would have been wiser.

It is not too late to show some wisdom now. Vladimir Putin's troop movements in Crimea, which are supported by most Russians, are of questionable legality under the terms of the peace and friendship treaty that Russia signed with Ukraine in 1997. But their illegality is considerably less clear-cut than that of the US-led invasion of Iraq, or of Afghanistan, where the UN security council only authorised the intervention several weeks after it had happened. And Russia's troop movements can be reversed if the crisis abates. That would require the restoration of the language law in eastern Ukraine and firm action to prevent armed groups of anti-Russian nationalists threatening public buildings there.

The Russian-speaking majority in the region is as angry with elite corruption, unemployment and economic inequality as people in western Ukraine. But it also feels beleaguered and provoked, with its cultural heritage under existential threat. Responsibility for eliminating those concerns lies not in Washington, Brussels or Moscow, but solely in Kiev.

This exposes the West's hatred of Non-Aligned independent states like India and the insidious efforts of the US to seduce and pressurise developing nations to join its military alliance..

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 03 Mar 2014 08:03

partha wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_M ... Assurances

I don't see anywhere that the US is commited to Ukraine's defense. If you see it, kindly point it out.

According to the memorandum, Russia, the US, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
1.Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2.Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3.Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4.Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5.Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6.Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments

what you are pointing to is *Russia's* problem not the US. they are the violaters not the US.

partha · Post by **partha** » 03 Mar 2014 08:18

Sure, not security guarantees but some kind of guarantee. You said "never any.. none" which is not the case. The bottom line is that if I am Iran, my conclusion would be that these kind of treaties are useless and that I should continue with nuke development to secure my interests and not rely on any kind of guarantees by any superpower.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2014 08:21

Deja vu, Budapest, Prague.
1. Radio Free Oirope exhorts the drunken to take to the streets and throw remnants of their bottles as Molotov cocktails, burn tires at barricades, rocks at police.

Da Free World Is Behind U! Freedom! Liberty! Democracy! The West Will Support You!

2. demonstrators take over the govt. Wild(er) celebrations. Vodka supplies severely depleted.
3. Foreign Aid in the form of Vodka Bottles brought by Special Courier.
4. Loud whining.
5. US says:

Hu, V? V never promised to come to help of you demonstrators!

6. Bottles now up the musharrafs of the demonstrators in BudaPest and Prague Kay Gee Bee Chit-chat chambers. .
7. Supplies of small rocks now being replaced by former demonstrators breaking rocks in Siberia.

Steps 3-7 coming in Kiev.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 03 Mar 2014 08:52

Good. I hope the US SD is as dumb as I think it is and actually tries to help the Ukrainians. This will involve Russia and the US/Western Europe in a war/proxy war which should suit the interests of a nationalist Indian govt just fine to do what it should have done a long time ago in the Indian subcontinent. As a now lamented maulana here once said, Give peace a chance, destroy Pakistan.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 03 Mar 2014 09:04

So, while Russia is physically tearing Ukraine apart at this very moment, with guns and tanks, we are being lectured that the US is tearing Ukraine apart with subliminal messages while Russia is just kind, loving uncle Joe?

This is like the time the US bombed that village in Vietnam. You know, to save it from being bombed.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 03 Mar 2014 09:15

partha wrote:Sure, not security guarantees but some kind of guarantee. You said "never any.. none" which is not the case. The bottom line is that if I am Iran, my conclusion would be that these kind of treaties are useless and that I should continue with nuke development to secure my interests and not rely on any kind of guarantees by any superpower.

If the US signs an agreement, we will make every attempt to honor it and the US is doing that right now with the Budapest agreement. I can't help it if the russian fanbois on this thread loves putin's thuggery. everything they are justifing is built on a tissue of lies accepted as facts.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 03 Mar 2014 09:19

ShankarCag wrote:Good. I hope the US SD is as dumb as I think it is and actually tries to help the Ukrainians. This will involve Russia and the US/Western Europe in a war/proxy war which should suit the interests of a nationalist Indian govt just fine to do what it should have done a long time ago in the Indian subcontinent. As a now lamented maulana here once said, Give peace a chance, destroy Pakistan.

you haven't got a clue as to what is going on do you?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2014 09:38

Russian PM Medvedev views on FB

Russia's not ready to develop relations with people who illegally seized power

MOSCOW, March 03, 7:05 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia is ready to develop relations with Ukraine, but not with the group of people who seized power in breach of the Constitution and other laws of the State, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev wrote on his page in Facebook.

"My attitude is as follows: Russia is prepared to develop comprehensive respectful relations with fraternal Ukraine. Mutually beneficial and effective ones. However, Ukraine to us is not just a group of people who, upon spilling blood at maidan, seized power in violation of the Constitution and other laws of their State. We perceive Ukraine it its aggregate as a country inhabited by diverse people. Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Jews, and people of other nationalities living in accord," the Russian Head of Government wrote.

"Yes, the prestige of President (Viktor) Yanukovich is almost negligible but this does not nullify the fact that under the Constitution of Ukraine he is (still) the legitimate Head of State. If he is guilty before Ukraine carry out a procedure of impeachment in accordance with Ukraine's Constitution (Article 111) and put him on trial. All the rest is arbitrariness. A seizure of power. And this means that such a procedure will be utterly unstable and will end with a new coup, and a new bloodshed," Medvedev maintains.

"Russia needs a strong and stable Ukraine. Predictable and economically reliable partner. And not a poor relative who who keeps begging with an outstretched hand. The latter-day Ukrainian rulers were told about all this on Sunday," the RF Prime Minister emphasized.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 09:42

"Russia needs a strong and stable Ukraine. Predictable and economically reliable partner. And not a poor relative who who keeps begging with an outstretched hand.

>> substitute russia for america and TSP for ukraine and the same things should have been said to TSP from the eisenhower days...instead we got...TSP...pumped up like a rat on anabolic steroids. and the nawab of illahabad was too busy with his gori girlfriends and lifestyle to care.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2014 09:49

Thats the crux of the matter , The EU and Maidan signs an agreement with Yanukovich standing in Gurantee for both and then helped the Maidan and took over the Parliament. Thats Constitutionally illlegal as simple as that.

He might be the worst President but he needs to be thrown out or impeached constitutionally.

The present Maidan government is neither legal and have no authority to pass any law or speak on behalf of Ukranian people as they are not elected representative ......not withstanding recognising from EU or US.

The EU wanted the constitution to go back to 2004 and that is what all agreed. Yet they kicked out Yanukovich which is mind bogling.

This is something the Western Media will never put across......which is the constitutional illegality of Maidan Government.

Its like AAP party taking over Parliament in India and US/EU recognising it and they passing all laws as it suits them or EU........the Congress might be worst but then you have to vote them out ......till then its President Rule

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 09:58

I was looking at the map...Russia is such a vast country...though that place is just a corner overall...the distance from volgograd to kiev is 800km...from saratov to kiev is 1000km. and yet it barely registers on overall map of russia.
engels afb opposite the volga river from saratov city is the main home of russian strategic aviation assets. one can always seen around 30 bears and blackjacks lined up there. from there I guess they are well placed to launch ALCM strike west over the black sea, southern europe..but also head south to middle east or upto the china border in the east. they can also reach central europe easily. truly a strategic location.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 03 Mar 2014 10:17

JE Menon wrote:The Europeans haven't yet learned enough from the two "World" wars it seems...

It's been 75 years, saar. It is said that history becomes legend as its events recede into the mists of time, and that memories grow dimmer in the slumber of peace .....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 10:21

people are well aware of US came to the aid of the desperate people of Grenada and Panama suffering under tyranic regimes . where its vital nearby interests are concerned whether near or far, the rulebook is deftly kept under the table.
thats how 'great powers' work, and no use complaining about it.

if a country the size and population of korea, germany and iraq could be turned over end and end and torn up what is so great about ukraine here?

faultlines are there in every country to exploit by outside powers and this game went on in cold war as well, but lately it has escalated to a dangerous new level against weak central governments who are unwilling to play by the rules dictated by the west.

our singhs and other uncles are so heavily sedated at best one can say by playing dead they bought some time until they too fade away and newer alternative leaders emerge.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Mar 2014 10:24

No,they simply changed the battlefield to Asia (Korea,Vietnam, and the Middle East!),refining and inventing new weapons of mass destruction.Europe having been integrated into a curious beast,a Frankenstein monster say some,has to send its missiles at targets further afield,whi NATO has wanted to plant missiles in Poland,Ukraine,etc,aimed at Russia.Meanwhile Russia warns the Kiev pretender of wzr crimes if he uses force against civilians.

http://rt.com/news/war-crime-ukraine-troops-425/
Will be a war crime to use force against Ukraine civilians, Russia warns self-proclaimed president

The self-imposed president of Ukraine Aleksandr Turchinov will be considered a “war criminal” in case he uses military force against the population of south-eastern part of Ukraine, Russia’s lower house Speaker Sergey Naryshkin reportedly warned.

Naryshkin held a phone conversation with Aleksandr Turchinov from the Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party, who is leading a self-proclaimed government in Kiev. During the conversation Naryshkin reportedly warned Turchinov against deploying forces against Ukrainians resisting Kiev, a source told RIA Novosti.

The Ukrainian side has stated that it has no plans to resort to use of force against citizens.

Russia’s Federation Council unanimously approved on Saturday President Vladimir Putin’s request to use Russian military forces in Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians following a request from authorities in Crimea.

Turchinov has ordered a full mobilization of Ukraine’s armed forces and ordered to boost security at nuclear power plants, airports and other sites citing threat of “potential aggression” from Russia.

It is unlikely that the interim government in Kiev will send troops to Crimea, believes political commentator Aleksandr Nekrasov, but even their rhetoric is enough to escalate tensions.

“Ever since they have seized power in Kiev, I think they were getting desperate by the day because they have suddenly realized that they are not getting that money which they hoped to get at once,” Nekrasov told RT. “And this desperation showed the fact that they have repeated all those warnings about Russian invasion, Russian aggression and so on and so forth and now we see them desperate enough to make all sorts of provocative statements and basically implying that the danger of war is rising.”

The crisis in Ukraine escalated after a revolution forced President Viktor Yanukovich leave the capital. The developments follow an appeal by the Prime Minister of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov, who requested that Russia to help cope with the crisis and ensure “peace and calm” in the region.

One of the first orders of the new self-proclaimed government abolished the use of other languages in official circumstances in Ukraine. It sparked a wave of mass protests in Eastern Ukraine, where a vast ethnic Russian contingent is living and the majority of population speak Russian.

Feeling a threat from the new government of questionable legitimacy, a number of regions stood up against it. Thousands of people across eastern and southern Ukraine are flooding the streets of major cities, carrying Russian flags and urging local authorities to disobey Kiev’s orders. The local population is calling the government in Kiev illegitimate and demanding that their local governments refuse to take orders from it.

Russia, too, has voiced doubts over the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed government, citing the procedural violations the Ukrainian parliament committed in ousting Yanukovich, appointing a new cabinet and taking control of the country’s judiciary. Moscow is also concerned over reports that some MPs were forced to change their votes under threat of physical violence.

Moscow on Saturday referred the issue to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, an advisory body with expertise in constitutional law. A similar request to monitor the legitimacy of the actions in Kiev was addressed to the Interparliamentary Assembly of the Commonwealth of Independent States, which brings together MPs from most former republics of the Soviet Union.

How the US has been purloining Ukraine's secrets.
US military seize documents raided by Ukrainian radicals – suspected looter

Ukrainian radical activists are conducting organized searches of residences of former government officials and handing over all documents to the US military, a man who says that he took part in some of these operations claims.

The allegations come from a Russian citizen who was detained by the Federal Security Service (FSB) shortly after returning from Ukraine. The 21-year-old, who calls himself Vladislav, says he spent some three days among the ranks of the Right Sector group in Kiev after the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovich, and took part in the raids of his deposed officials.

“They load buses with the self-defense troops and go to MPs’ dachas in the suburbs, to their apartments, and break down their doors. It’s not looting, like in taking furniture and stuff. They take documents and hand them over to special people, who check them,” he said in an interview with the Russia-24 news channel.

Vladislav says he saw a group of people, whom he calls American military, who copied or took some of the documents from the radicals.

“It was on the afternoon of February 26, when an American group came in two Mercedes cars. Then American troops came out wearing their uniforms,” he recalled.

The man claims that Germans, too, collected intelligence with the help of the radical group, but at some point they curbed their activities.

Apart from the documents, the Right Sector activists took valuables from the raided residences, but the loot was not taken by the activists themselves. Instead it was handed over to intendants, to be sold. The money would then be used to buy weapons in the black market for the group, it was said.

But the “captains” of the radicals are not as strict with discipline in other areas, the man said.

“To keep men from raving about, the captains give them a bit of freedom in the city. Like telling them ‘Go rob some shops or car dealerships,’” he explained. “It’s not to allow serious violence at Maidan itself, so that the structure they built didn’t collapse.”

Vladislav says he arrived in Kiev on Feb. 25, days after the most violent clashes hit the capital. A trained security guard, he came to the Ukrainian capital partially for an adventure, partially with a hope of participating in looting, he said.

He brought with him from Russia a bulletproof vest, a handgun and a complete set of protective equipment. Actually this same attire brought him into trouble, when he returned to Russia, as police thought he looked suspicious.

He says he was treated with suspicion by Rights Sector activists on the account of his being Russian. He had to take a polygraph test to prove that he was not “a Russian sniper,” a member of an alleged secret team of Russian special operation troops, whom some Maidan activists accuse of killing protesters, but whose existence was never proven. The hostility didn’t pass after he passed the test, Vladislav said, so he decided to leave Ukraine.

He insists that he didn’t get any money for his short tour to Kiev, but mentions “foreign mercenaries” in the interview. It’s not clear who those people may actually be from a legal point of view, considering Vladislav’s own dubious experience with the Right Sector.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 10:28

>> “To keep men from raving about, the captains give them a bit of freedom in the city. Like telling them ‘Go rob some shops or car dealerships,’” he explained. “It’s not to allow serious violence at Maidan itself, so that the structure they built didn’t collapse.”

must have raided the nearest merc and bmw dearlerships for sure and got themselves their choice of accessories and trim levels at gunpoint

high end audio/video eqpt too - EOS 1 dslrs, wharfedale speakers

style!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2014 12:07

Virupaksha wrote:Soudis will be jumping in joy to fund any such civil war. However I dont expect it to be there, because civil wars do not allow pipelines to work.

So I will expect Russia to jump in full scale. It will establish a temporary even if not recognised rule for two years and then leave.

If this was after south stream pipeline started running, expected late 2015, the russians would have said go on, let the civil war circus begin. Even now with nord stream project complete, only the transit countries will suffer, but the west european consumers are good.

Nord Stream passes through the Sea so it does not passes through 3rd country

South Stream will pass through land and many EU countries.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2014 12:43

USAID got Maidan coup up and running – media

The US online whistleblower magazine Pando has leaked documents that suggest the American government in the form of US Agency for International Development (USAID) could have played the role of force multiplier in the overthrow of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych, having funded a host of opposition groups prior to the revolution.

Pando published financial documents, showing numerous funding entries for NGO activities across Ukraine, including in Poltava, Vinnytsia, Zhytomyr, Ternopil, Sumy, and elsewhere, mostly in the Ukrainian-speaking west and center. The list also names US-based contributors, such as billionaire George Soros, eBay founder Pierre Omidyar and his Omidyar Network foundation, as well as the National Endowment for Democracy, which is funded largely by the US Congress.

According to the leaked papers, a network of interlocking NGOs– Chesno (Honestly), Center UA and Stop Censorship, to name a few – were growing in influence in Ukraine by “targeting pro-Yanukovych politicians with a well-coordinated anti-corruption campaign that built its strength in Ukraine’s regions, before massing in Kiev last autumn.”

The fundraising papers show that from October 2011 to December 2012 USAID provided Chesno with a hefty sum of over $421,000, while also planting nine of Center UA experts on its staff whose duty it was to manage the NGO's affairs on the regional level, coordinate its efforts, provide photo and video coverage, as well as creative input.

Hence, it may well be that the activities of Chesno, which bills itself as a civil watchdog movement bent on “filtering the power,” received a large percentage of funds from American taxpayers under the watchful eye of the US Agency for International Development.

Chesno was set up on 29 October 2011 as part of the “Let's Filter the Parliament in 24 hours” campaign, which happened just as the Ukrainian opposition was discussing a unified structure in a bid to consolidate its efforts. Its public face was Oleg Rybachuk, a prominent politician in the country and the right-hand man to Orange Revolution figurehead Viktor Yushchenko.

It was reported earlier that the Maidan unrest in the late 2013 drew large scores of western foreigners in Ukraine’s capital Kiev, including the so-called “mercenaries” from the United States, Germany and Poland.

“There weren’t many Russians there, compared to some 60 people from the United States, around 30 and up to 50 Germans, as well as Poles, Turks and many others,” one of the participants, who identified himself as Vladimir, confessed.

The heavily fortified Maidan camp in Kiev’s Independence Square was the flashpoint of the anti-Yanukovych uprising. It attracted some of the most prominent, if not exactly controversial, public people from the West. Among them were US Republican Senators John McCain and Ryan Murphy. McCain promised protesters the support of the American nation and quoted the 19th-century Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko in his podium speech.

Another Maidan guest was US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland hand in hand with the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey R. Pyatt. The US couple met with top insurgents and gave out cookies to the hungering crowd.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 13:34

amazing. this goes way beyond what covert support the indian outfits are getting...this is blatant and naked interference in internal affairs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2014 13:50

USAID is just a front end for CIA covert activity .....the first thing Putin did when he got reelected was to kick out USAID from Russia , they were they one that was supporting opposition holding Moscow rallies etc.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 03 Mar 2014 13:55

Austin wrote:USAID is just a front end for CIA covert activity

- +1 to that Austinji. During the recent protests at Shahbagh in Bangladesh, happened to speak to an acquaintance who inadvertently revealed that USAID was funding the recording and distribution of CD's carrying protest songs. Really fail to see how it is anyone's business to fund this kind of activity in a foreign country.

Edit 1: This acquaintance comes from a deep BNP family and here I would conjecture that his group/ team getting the funds was kind of related to family connections. But this is totally my personal opinion.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 03 Mar 2014 14:12

Singha wrote:amazing. this goes way beyond what covert support the indian outfits are getting...this is blatant and naked interference in internal affairs.

Singha ji, The relationship between any self respecting nation and US led Anglo world is basically a Zero Sum game. If that nation has to survive with dignity and respect, US led Anglo world has to be destabilized and defeated.

And as far as pure evil is concerned, Hitler trails far behind the American establishment.