Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Mar 2014 22:43

Skynet is real.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Mar 2014 04:40

polish loara?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Mar 2014 06:55

based on the t 55?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 07 Mar 2014 07:04

British Marksman AA turret system mounted on a Polish T55 chassis. Poland has 7 of these.

member_28482 · Post by **member_28482** » 07 Mar 2014 11:55

Just Curious, What will be the cost of Arjun Mark2 tanks? I read somewhere, "Ajun Mark-2 is the Most expensive tank in the World".

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Mar 2014 11:57

aditp wrote:British Marksman AA turret system mounted on a Polish T55 chassis. Poland has 7 of these.

True.
ItPsV 90
The ItPsv 90 is the designation of Finland’s Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun system. Its made of the British Marksman turret and integrated into a Polish T-55AM tank hull. The AM version was chosen as it has a more powerfull engine (620hp) compared to the standard Russian T-55’s and this was required to cope with the additional weight of the Marksman turret compared to that of a T-55 tank turret.

Finland operates 7 of these vehicle since 1990. They serve as protection against anti-tank helicopters and are deployed with Finnish tanks.
http://tanknutdave.com/the-finnish-itpsv-90-spaag/

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Mar 2014 12:00

As India is stepping up licence production of Russian T-90’s and upgrading its T-72 fleet of Main Battle Tanks, their large fleet of Russian T-55 Medium Battle Tanks are being withdrawn from service.

Though the T-55 is obsolete in comparison to other tanks, its hull still offers higher levels of protection in comparison to standard APC’s and has a rework able internal space when the turret is removed.

Israel had proved that their T-55’s called the Tiran could capitalise on these benefits when they converted theirs in to the Achzarit Heavy APC. India appears to now be following this trend.

Theirs is called the Tarmour and uses a new superstructure which is reportedly covered in India’s Kanchan Composite armour, as used on the new Arjun Main Battle Tank and Abhay IFV. The vehicle offers protection far and beyond the standard APC of 7.62mm MG fire, but now protection against RPG-7’s.

The Tarmour can be fitted with a Remote Weapon Station capable of operating a .50 MG, which is controlled by the vehicle’s commander.

The vehicle has a crew of two and provides accommodation for 9 troops. Troops enter and leave the vehicle through the rear door.

Is it true ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2014 06:59

Grant the Israelis to find innovative ways in using obsolete eqpt.Remember how they bought our Centurion tanks retired?

Now for the bad news.media reports say that the Arjun MK-2 trials are stuck because the Israeli Lahat anti-tank missile has repeatedly failed in trials and that the trials may be postponed to "next summer"! Now that is absurd.OK,the missile is a dud thus far,but that does not mean that the rest of the trials cannot proceed? Surely there are other issues/modifications that have been made from the MK-1 the at require acceptance? The tank also has a powerful main gun.It is by no means defenceless! anti-tank missiles fired from main guns are of fairly recent origin.If the rest of the tank's components are OK,then it should be cleared for production while the missile sorts itself out.Do we also not have the NAG on the verge of acceptance?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Mar 2014 08:13

Missile Testing on Arjun MK II May be Delayed

India’s indigenous Main Battle Tank, the Arjun MK-II may have its missile testing runs delayed for up to a year with some of the LAHAT missiles procured from Isreal Aerospace Industries misfiring during the end-user test runs conducted recently.
...
“Two missiles misfired during the test runs earlier this year. With end-user regulations calling for mandatory tests during summer, IAI may not be able to deliver corrected missiles during this summer. If that happens, further missile tests will be carried out only next summer,” he pointed out. The Laser Homing Missile capability is one of the 19 major upgrades in the MK-II.
...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2014 08:25

When the accused is predetermined as guilty, any excuse will do to hang.
the redoutable invar missiles if tested properly will be less than super.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 08 Mar 2014 11:15

putnanja wrote:Missile Testing on Arjun MK II May be Delayed

India’s indigenous Main Battle Tank, the Arjun MK-II may have its missile testing runs delayed for up to a year with some of the LAHAT missiles procured from Isreal Aerospace Industries misfiring during the end-user test runs conducted recently.
...
“Two missiles misfired during the test runs earlier this year. With end-user regulations calling for mandatory tests during summer, IAI may not be able to deliver corrected missiles during this summer. If that happens, further missile tests will be carried out only next summer,” he pointed out. The Laser Homing Missile capability is one of the 19 major upgrades in the MK-II.
...

Summer trials then winter trials and then monsoon trials. Ours must be the only defense R&D program that is so heavily dependent upon Mother Nature. Why can't they just put this feature on hold for further development while approving the tank for production? Avadi anyways has a 2-yr lead time after the orders are placed to commence series production.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2014 12:07

it is important to note NO western heavy MBT uses or plans to use tube fired ATGM. it was a workaround soln developed by Russia specifically because their FCS ability to fire on move accurately fell off beyond 2km while western heavies hull down could start picking them off from 3km. so it was a plan to give them something to deal with until T-series could get close enough.

and we know the arjun really has no need for missile given its gun, fcs and armour are strong and accurate enough..and getting even better with the commanders thermal sight and hunter-killer ability. it apparently trounced a T-90 head to head by completing all tasks incl fire on move well ahead of t90.

these are the kind of false charges and statements khujli baba jumps from tree to tree making every day. nobody has explained exactly in what scenario and use case the arjun needs the lahat.

if they want a heavy top attack missile to target bunkers, do not waste ammo storage on Arjuns for it, get Namica vehicles and Nags. but Shhh that is desi.....

member_28454 · Post by **member_28454** » 08 Mar 2014 12:08

There is no viable operational scenario that calls for a gun fired missile. The lengths to which the army goes to scuttle a superior domestic product to facilitate the import of more expensive junk from abroad is breathtaking.
They will never order the Arjun in quantity to allow the indigenous component percentage to go up and this will then be touted to make a case for the imported content being high.
They will not order any of the bridges and recovery vehicles developed for the Arjun and this will be used as an excuse to scuttle the tank saying that they are not available.
I pray to God to protect India as there is little other hope

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2014 14:23

Ok.But what about the Lahat.Why is it so important for Arjun? Why anoer ATGM when Invar is being acquired? Is it Arjun compatible?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Mar 2014 14:50

In my opinion Lahat is the only HEAT weapon Arjun will be carrying and Invar is a 125mm and not compatible with 120mm gun of Arjun

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 08 Mar 2014 17:47

Lahat is short term solution. CLGM is the long term solution.
http://www.aame.in/2013/12/drdo-clgm-de ... pears.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2014 20:25

who is the intended target of the HEAT round? I thought APDS for tanks and HESH for IFV/bunkers was the general trend these days?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Mar 2014 20:33

The 5 km range CLGM can target armoured vehicles, including Tanks, as well as low-flying aircrafts. It can be fired, both, from the barrel of the indigenous Arjun MBT, thus enhancing that platform's versatility, as well as a standalone system, that can be lugged around by soldiers. India's other indigenous Anti-Tank Guided Missile [ATGM], the Nag, on the other hand, is incompatible with the Arjun Tank, & is much too heavy to function as a man portable anti-tank system.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2014 20:37

I can see that FOC of the CLGM which likely will not be before 2020 due to umpteen trials(it has not entered tests yet) will be the next convenient hook to make sure the Mk2 never sees an order!

but nobody is asking why do we need a 5km long weapon when the std LOC in our theaters (plains) is rarely if ever going to be 5km. in punjab do we imagine anyone has a 5km field of fire? even in rajasthan due to undulating terrain I would not imagine a 5km vantage point is very common.

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 08 Mar 2014 21:16

Can't you guys see it? All these trials are only a smokescreen for the entry of T-90 through backdoor.

Even Arjun mk1 was shown superior to T-90 years ago.So logically we should have expected the Army to order the indigenous world class tank Arjun in numbers.
Instead what really happened was baffling. They ordered more T-90 while sending Arjun mk1(which already beat the tin cans) into an upgrade circus.
They were so passionately fixing the issues with T-90, which the russians should have done in the first place.

Those who are responsible for this are traitors who have sold out this nation. They have looted this country.
Will we ever recover the loot they have taken out of the country as commissions in this deal? Only time will tell.
Really sad to see the state our nation has reached.

Meanwhile somewhere in the thar desert, Arjun mk2 sweats it out.Will it ever enter into service in numbers?I see no hope.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Mar 2014 21:37

^^^ Do you know whether the other trials are continuing or not? It has only been said that the CLGM summer trials may be delayed because there may not be enough time to fix the problems before the summer goes out. Or do you know that the Army will not place orders for Arjun MkII till the CLGM is validated?!!

If not, then why so much of rona dhona?

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 08 Mar 2014 22:38

Singha wrote:When the accused is predetermined as guilty, any excuse will do to hang.
the redoutable invar missiles if tested properly will be less than super.

What

??? Asking for testing the mighty invar missiles in indian desert condition?This is Blasphemy

How dare you speak about testing something made by gora's? We dark skinned people should be testing only weapons made by our own type like Arjun even if they are superior to tin cans.
The weapons and meggiles made by gora's will always be perfect.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 09 Mar 2014 09:48

Off of slashdot and Popular Science blog:
Tale Of The Teletank: The Brief Rise And Long Fall Of Russia’s Military Robots

Seventy-four years ago, Russia accomplished what no country had before, or has since—it sent armed ground robots into battle.
...
...
Specifically, the Soviets deployed two battalions of Teletanks, most of them existing T-26 light tanks stuffed with hydraulics and wired for radio control. Operators could pilot the unmanned vehicle from more than a kilometer away, punching at rows of dedicated buttons (no thumbsticks or D-pads to be found) to steer the tank or fire on targets with a machine gun or flame thrower. And the Teletank had the barest minimum of autonomous functionality: if it wandered out of radio range, the tank would come to a stop after a half-minute, and sit, engine idling, until contact was reestablished.

Interesting reading...

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Mar 2014 10:39

Smerch also has serious problems in desert heat.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 09 Mar 2014 13:30

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... xqLeYWjbac

Guess DRDO should start fielding these weapons in the overseas market. If IA comes after few years, they should pay the price that it pays for T-72. It must be strictly professional relationship between two entities. Someone will surely realise or eyebrows being raised after these items are exported that these are better products than they are meant out to be. If you focus only on requirements of IA you are screwing it up, make it better than what is specified and also include what other tanks have best in them. Only these approach will take Arjun to whole new level and will be ordered in significant numbers. Look at what Lockheed and Boeing does. Project managers, scientists and planners should have stake in the invention. More they are ordered, more bonus they will share.

member_28454 · Post by **member_28454** » 09 Mar 2014 21:04

No country will import what the country's own military does not wish to buy. And the MoD is notoriously difficult in its willingness to allow Indian heavy weapons to be exported as it could offend someone or the other.
Maybe the Navy should be allowed to raise Marine divisions. They will be more professional in their procurement and Arjun will find a place. But of course that is not going to happen anytime soon even if it ever does.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Mar 2014 02:37

There was an effort to develop a tank(?) with Poland, a light tank IIRC. Wonder what ever happened to that idea.

Meanwhile, two rather interesting time-pass videos:

The animation of the PL-01:

then the actual concept version:

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 10 Mar 2014 03:13

What is point of weapons development if your country is not willing to push it and make it better than everyone else ... What happens in the event of major war if the country you import from is unable to fulfill the request ? That is holding billion people hostage on import ! That should surely be punishable to death as treachery I guess !

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Mar 2014 13:11

The Preferential treatment to foreign products.

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our ... /chap2.pdf

Ministry of Defence signed two contracts in December 2005 and March 2007
with M/s Rosoboronexport, Russia for import of a total number of 42
SMERCH Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher System (MBRLS) at the total cost
aggregating Rs 2633 crore

The trials of the system were conducted in three phases between June and
August 2002 prior to conclusion of contract in December 2005. In the General
Staff Evaluation (GSE) of the trials, the Director General Quality Assurance
(DGQA) (L) observed that electronic components should be able to function
in operating environment specification of minus 40ºC to plus 50ºC. However,
the maximum temperature recorded during trials was stated to be up to 36ºC
only when the trials were conducted. The need for verification of these aspects
before finalization of contract was emphasized in the GSE.

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system, the matter was taken up with the supplier who suggested to carry
out the product improvement by installing a cooling system at the cost of
buyer.

One of the possible reasons for the failure of SOCRIG was attributed to high
temperature prevailing in Indian field conditions which suggested that despite
the apprehensions expressed during trial evaluation the system was not tested
at the temperatures stipulated in the contract.

The sub-system DTE is fitted in LV, TLV, CSV and MET Complex for
encrypted data communication. Eleven DTEs each costing Rs 25 lakh reported
complete/partial failures due to defect in the internal component. The
equipment is critical for the reliability of the system since complete
automation depends on it.

The contract provided for PDI by the DGQA and sixteen personnel were
trained in Russia to carry out inspection. The PDI could not be carried out
properly as the team members were not exposed to the weapon system in the
short training.

The PDI team involved in inspection of the LVs etc was not permitted by the
vendor to carry out live firing from the LV (9A – 52 – 2T) supplied owing to
defective wording of the contract.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2014 13:24

Just imagine what Pinaka, Arjun and Nag have been given such linency.

I think there is no doubt Politicans higher up and MOD are heavily in favour of imports. They are ones who make directions and purchase decesions while they let the Services Vs Drdo circus happen.

If they can break rules like this for SMERCH why not for Pinaka, Arjun and Nag. It shows where thier tthinking lies.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 11 Mar 2014 14:50

Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help

The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The Indian Ministry of Defence formally approved the Army’s three-year-old proposal for the T-90 upgrade Feb. 24, and the tender for the upgrade will be sent only to domestic defense companies, an MoD source said.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks’ existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

India contracted to acquire 310 T-90s from Russia in 2001, 190 of which were license-produced at the Avadi-based, state-owned ordnance factory. Another contract was signed in 2007 for the licensed production of 330 tanks. The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said.

The Army plans to procure a total of 1,657 T-90s by 2020, which will include 1,000 tanks produced indigenously under full transfer of technology from Russia, with all parts made in India.

“DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights,” said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

“The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful,” Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, “The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage.”

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, “A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank.”

The Army carried out comparative trials between the heavier homemade Arjun and the lighter Russian-built T-90 in the deserts of Rajasthan last year, with the aim of assessing the Arjun’s combat worthiness.

Both the Arjun and T-90 are being produced at the Avadi factory. Production of the Mark-1 model of the Arjun has begun with 124 tanks ordered. The first Mark-2 models, of which 124 also are ordered, are expected by early 2016.

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

“The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi,” Bhonsle said.

A Russian diplomat, however, said Russia is supplying all necessary technology, and that the responsibility for production delays rests with the Avadi factory.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2014 15:43

>> existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

thats like saying we are replacing the entire car except the engine. this after the cost of the deal itself and the umpteen rounds of system failures and shortcomings and fight over non txfer of manufacturing technologies. other than being a little bigger, the tin can minus these features has little over a original T-72...and we are replacing these features!

but any account this deal is a disaster. but Shhh..let none tell the DGMW that.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Mar 2014 16:08

Seven out of thirteen SOCRIG failed completely during exploitation of sub
systems. As one sub system costs Rs 50 lakh and is critical for the accuracy of
the system, the matter was taken up with the supplier who suggested to carry
out the product improvement by installing a cooling system at the cost of
buyer.

The contract provided for PDI by the DGQA and sixteen personnel were
trained in Russia to carry out inspection. The PDI could not be carried out
properly as the team members were not exposed to the weapon system in the
short training.
The PDI team involved in inspection of the LVs etc was not permitted by the
vendor to carry out live firing from the LV (9A – 52 – 2T) supplied owing to
defective wording of the contract.

Very sad and depressing read considering the hoops the desi products are made to go through

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Mar 2014 16:13

Am I correct in assuming that the tech developed for Arjun will end up upgrading the tin can.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2014 16:55

While many feel Arrjun 1 and 2 are indeed better Tanks and there was no real reason justifying the 124/248 Arjun orders vs 1635 for T-90, I suggest we don't call T-90 a Tin can.

After all the army will have to still do battle with it.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 11 Mar 2014 17:02

Aditya_V wrote:While many feel Arrjun 1 and 2 are indeed better Tanks and there was no real reason justifying the 124/248 Arjun orders vs 1635 for T-90, I suggest we don't call T-90 a Tin can.

After all the army will have to still do battle with it.

if we dont want Tin Can 95 to come in next year, yes we should call out for what they are.

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Mar 2014 18:28

I think if Army is set on T-90 then we should reverse engineer it for indigenous production.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Mar 2014 21:27

Sleep well folks. The embryonic presence of Indian technical critical mass is slowly forcing the issue/s. Fully expect massive turbulence, nothing wants to die. And giving birth is perhaps one of the most painful, yet joyful "events".

Fully expect a lot of hangama, finger pointing, IP talk, etc.

Ultimately all these yahoos will have to give into the Indian expertise. There will be some issues, but nothing that cannot be overcome.

member_28454 · Post by **member_28454** » 12 Mar 2014 04:37

I think if Army is set on T-90 then we should reverse engineer it for indigenous production.

That won't happen for as soon as the Russians say "Intellectual Property", the Army and MoD will cave in as they are very protective of the Russians.
In the meantime the superior Indian product has been dying a slow and prolonged death in-spite of all the attempts by DRDO to keep it alive; it cannot withstand the continuous and untiring attack by the import lobby forever.
In the future our soldiers will be riding to battle in these Tin-cans, while the Chinese and Pakistanis will come to battle in the new Chinese Heavy tank that they will have developed by then.
Of course we had a heavy tank design ready years ago with great growth potential in the Arjun, but by then it would be dead.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2014 06:10

Well, with all this changes, We are looking at Tank-Ex (almost). I think, DRDO should have built the production model prototypes and let the Defence Ministry take a call.