INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 12 Mar 2014 13:26

Going by the cumbersime tender process our MOD babus so happily espouse it may be years of mind numbing paper pushing before we actually even start to fit out the Vikramaditya. And that's if a scam doesnt detail the whole affair.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 12 Mar 2014 14:25

pavankv wrote:Planning and Policy making is not good.... Defence ministry should have decided before arrival of vikramaditya . If a war happens today , it will be sitting duck or to protect the carrier three more frigates are needed, which will decrease the fighting capacity.

The Carrier is never employed all alone, it will always have Frigates and ASW Corvettes for cover regardless of what air defence system is selected. Besides, the most potent defense for the carrier is its airwing which will establish a safe zone well beyond it's air defence missiles can hit out. The Migs can effectively provide a combat radius of 850km with internal fuel alone and the range increases to 1300km with drop tanks and 3500km with IFR.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2014 16:34

Indian Navy keeps INS Vikramaditya busy since home coming

Russian made chiller MTHI 2000 provides air cooling to the ship. 5 Indian pilots have laded so far.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2014 16:38

But why not fit AK-630's and Barak-1 rather than being Nanga for now, Tender and final decesion can be added later. And why wasn'tt this finalised for 10 years. Is Barak-8 virtually dead?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Mar 2014 21:38

I find this asinine of the IN,to commission the country's most valuable warship without any air defence system! It appears that the Israeli lobby scuttled the carrier arriving with Kashtan/whatever.Given the few extra years taken to refurbish the carrier,the IN has no excuse for not conducting a timely selection or competition for the same,not after the carrier has arrived and is being out through its paces! Any competition now will take a few years to conduct,another few years for the MOD to decide and by 5 years or so when an order is eventually placed ,require another 2 more for manufacture of missile/silos/fitting it,and then putting the carrier through weapons/sea trials.During all this time,the carrier is going to be defenceless! This is one case where the IN is totally to blame.The Dear Lord forbid that we have a war thrust upon us during the next 5 years,when teh carrier will have to sail into "harm's way" and that it can avoid any enemy missiles by prayer alone! The Pakis and Chinese must be rollong over with laughter!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2014 21:42

Philip wrote: I find this asinine of the IN,to commission the country's most valuable warship without any air defence system! It appears that the Israeli lobby scuttled the carrier arriving with Kashtan/whatever.Given the few extra years taken to refurbish the carrier,the IN has no excuse for not conducting a timely selection or competition for the same,not after the carrier has arrived and is being out through its paces! Any competition now will take a few years to conduct,another few years for the MOD to decide and by 5 years or so when an order is eventually placed ,require another 2 more for manufacture of missile/silos/fitting it,and then putting the carrier through weapons/sea trials.During all this time,the carrier is going to be defenceless! This is one case where the IN is totally to blame.The Dear Lord forbid that we have a war thrust upon us during the next 5 years,when teh carrier will have to sail into "harm's way" and that it can avoid any enemy missiles by prayer alone! The Pakis and Chinese must be rollong over with laughter!

Its AKA's mandate to ensure IN cant fight. He has systematically ensured services readiness is eroded and has the nerve to write his own Eulogy* by his court jesters in MoD!!!

* As you know eulogies are for dead people only. AKA is politically dead. Along with MMS.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Mar 2014 14:31

Ramana,yopu are spot on.For quite some time now sources in Delhi say that there has been a conspiracy to sabotage the nation's defence preparedness vis-a-vis Pak and China.The perpetrator of this insidious strategy has been none other than Uncle Sam,relying on his arch-collaborator,fellow traveller,Snake-Oil Singh,whose pro-US tilt is almost horizontal.Why? Firstly,to keep the Pakis in good humour with the US.A de-fanged India cannot take advantage of Pak's huge problem with its own version of the Taliban,biting the had that fed it. This has allowed it to transfer large amounts of troops from the Indo-Pak border to the north and tribal areas.diplomatically too,it ensured that under the reins of the Singh regime,the Indian MEA was also castrated,the insertion of alleged Indian interference in Baluchistan to justify the continuation of Paki cross-border terrorism,was a definite defeat for Indian diplomacy.And what of the perpetrators of 26/11? The armed terrorist assault on Bombay and India has seen not a single Paki mastermind punished.Over time and deliberate waffling by Salman-the-Cursed,26/11 has become a footnote in sub-continental history.The Saint has been the perfect patsy or loyal spirit for the task.His decisions,or lack of them have fitted MMS's hand like a glove.

The Sino-US conspiracy to keep India firmly boxed down below the Himalayas and constrained in the IOR was a secret deal worked out by the Clinton administration years ago,after the P-2 N-tests.Clinton was bankrolled by Chinese money for his election campaign allegedly.In addition,the man with a roving eye ,gave allegedly full White House access to a Chinese woman,daughter of a general in charge of ....intelligence! China got NoKo to transfer N-weapon designs and missiles to Pak,so that Clinton could give a clean chit to China so that trade could flourish.The strategy hasn't changed very much,even though we are being arm twisted into joining an anti-Chinese military bloc where the US calls the shots.The US wants China,stuffed with hundreds of billions of US $$$, not to hurt the US economy .Keeping us in a semi-colonial state suits them both whatever their differences.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 13 Mar 2014 15:22

Phil, spot on, actually the nexus of the USA, Pak, PRC and Saudia predates the P2 events in 1998, and it should be said that POk2 arose because of this nexus. The Glenn amendment 1977, which targets countries who test is clearly one aspect of that nexus as its only focus is India, and it allowed China to contain India with the connivance of the USA

member_23891 · Post by **member_23891** » 13 Mar 2014 15:31

++1 Philip Sir. Think of a miserable future when third front govt will be formed Indian defence shall be made toothless. Keeping my fingers crossed to see a strong govt.with strong leadership. Amen!

PS: Respected Gurus/ Mods this is my first post spare me for my mistakes. Thanks.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 13 Mar 2014 16:14

Although I don't quiet agree with Phillip's theory but look, how easy it is to stop any procurement.

1. Float a news or a complaint on things being hush hush on a deal
2. lo and behold!!!...St Anthony appears
3. Procurement is halted dead in its track - Purpose achieved.

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 13 Mar 2014 18:41

Procurement process is messy and the parties that aren't at the table will certainly use any method to scuttle others' chances. This isn't a surprise given that India happens to be the largest arms market.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Mar 2014 18:59

I love slow days (or is it divas?)

So, let us get this straight. Langley is controlling things in India and actually defanging India to keep Pakistan AND China happy.

And Ambani controls COngress (read MMS/Saint/etc). And yet he goes with the Rafale and says nothing about the F series?

And, then there is Mr. Kejriwal - a CIA agent, funded via Ford Foundation and has umpteen US leaning policy formulators on various political teams that are supposed to propose US leaning policies. And, just BTW, Kejriwal is against the very Congress that is in bed with the US? And, he is also beating up on Ambanis who control a US team lead by MMS?

And, where is this "Third Front" exactly coming from? Do they have US permission to even field political candidates (trying to understand)?

Now to matter even worse (or is it better?) Putin is joining this group? By providing dead display units for the MKI, that is. Or is Putin trying a Ukraine on India, I wonder. Grab the MKI bases - since they can see nothing. OK, get it, so the part where Putin starved Soviets provided assets to India of spares was part of this whole game, so that the US could get sales in India and defang India.

And, why has China stopped incursions? Oh, snow. So, that should start any time now. The US opposes Crimea going to the Russians, but will support AP going to China. Part of the script known to Delhiets (only?)?

And, now, fo course, the Saint is so clean that he has cleaned the MoD back account too. No funds to purchase anything for the Indian services

Or is it that Indian political system is totally corrupt and the Indian people impotent or too distracted by T-20 and Bollywood to even pay attention to matters within their country?

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 13 Mar 2014 20:20

Septimus P. wrote:
pavankv wrote:Planning and Policy making is not good.... Defence ministry should have decided before arrival of vikramaditya . If a war happens today , it will be sitting duck or to protect the carrier three more frigates are needed, which will decrease the fighting capacity.

The Carrier is never employed all alone, it will always have Frigates and ASW Corvettes for cover regardless of what air defence system is selected. Besides, the most potent defense for the carrier is its airwing which will establish a safe zone well beyond it's air defence missiles can hit out. The Migs can effectively provide a combat radius of 850km with internal fuel alone and the range increases to 1300km with drop tanks and 3500km with IFR.

Even with all the air defence ships, not having a CIWS on the carrier is a big handicap.

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 13 Mar 2014 20:58

Wouldn't the Akash missile system meet the requirements
for an air defence system for the carrier?
Or even the Brahmos?
If either of the above has some shortcomings, I am in favor
of modifying or developing an indigenous system instead of
shopping for one. Spend the money in India and develop capabilities.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Mar 2014 21:39

Akash is too large for a CIWS.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 13 Mar 2014 21:58

I am not all that worried about the lack of a CIWS currently. The carrier has a good two years to go before its completely operational with a trained airwing and P-15A escorts with LRSAMS. The CIWS will be installed by then, The VIK does not have to undergo a major refit for this.

What is MOST worrying is we have only one SSN. Its going to be a ballet to ensure both the VIK and the SSN are operational at the same time. Without the SSN, the VIK ain't doing any blue water stuff. Diesel subs can't protect a carrier, PERIOD.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Mar 2014 23:22

raj.devan wrote:Even with all the air defence ships, not having a CIWS on the carrier is a big handicap.

They will have AK-630 which will be the CIWS what they won't have is point defense/medium range missile system.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Mar 2014 00:36

Bread and circuses was the way the ancient Romans kept the population happy.Their equivalent of the T-20 and Bollywood was the arena,where for more than half the year,free entertainment in the form of the most elaborate gladiatorial contests were staged.Ever been to the Colloseum?

In the Indian context,the first blow to render India impotent was made "at the stroke of the midnight hour" way back in '47.India and Pak were made to wage war with each other ever since partition to keep them from developing their true potential and dominating world events.The manner in which we achieved Independence through Gandhi and his non-violent strategy,electrified the colonies in Africa and Asia and beyond and sounded the death-knell for the imperial/colonial era.But what replaced this era of servitude? A powerful UNSC in favour of just 5 N-weapon states,with the rest of the nations as mere observers,and a global economic structure loaded heavily in favour of the capitalist nations.Weak ,corrupt and venal leaderships and autocratic dictators were the instruments of retaining a new era of neo-colonialism through willing marionettes like Man Mohan Singh.

Back to the VikA. Given that the carrier was delayed by a few years,it is astonishing that the IN did not choose a suitable LR SAM ,plus an BPDMS for the carrier.It had more than enough time to do so and cannot blame the MOD on this score,unless there is evidence to prove otherwise. There was enough time to conduct a competition right from the start of the project or even choose the Shtil as an interim solution until B-8 (chosen how?) arrives.Even if a competition is conducted in 2014 by a new dispensation,it will take at least 3-54 years before any system is selected after extensive trials,deal signed and the same fitted onto the VikA.That a huge goof up has been made is that even the 3 Kolkatta class Delhi DDG follow-ons will arrive with no LR SAMs! Since the Barak-1 has been cleared after a grave situ appeared affecting almost all IN warships,at least this BPDMS should be installed for the moment.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 14 Mar 2014 10:05

anand_sankar wrote:I am not all that worried about the lack of a CIWS currently. The carrier has a good two years to go before its completely operational with a trained airwing and P-15A escorts with LRSAMS. The CIWS will be installed by then, The VIK does not have to undergo a major refit for this.

What is MOST worrying is we have only one SSN. Its going to be a ballet to ensure both the VIK and the SSN are operational at the same time. Without the SSN, the VIK ain't doing any blue water stuff. Diesel subs can't protect a carrier, PERIOD.

Yeah, but that part isn't coming along too smoothly either. I do like the thinking around P-15A escort(s) though...it's going to be very interesting to see what the CBG composition ends up being.

Counting on even an SSN to protect a CBG against other subs is highly optimistic - if you follow how modern ASW is conducted. You need loads of airborne ASW, preferably fixed-wing, preferably organic from the carrier air wing. Deterrence being almost as good a win as a successfully prosecuted contact.

If it comes down to a sub v sub(s) battle...the CBG is almost already up sh$$ creek.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 15 Mar 2014 12:28

Philip wrote: The Sino-US conspiracy to keep India firmly boxed down below the Himalayas and constrained in the IOR was a secret deal worked out by the Clinton administration years ago,after the P-2 N-tests.Clinton was bankrolled by Chinese money for his election campaign allegedly.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... ge__st__40

US manageed to spoof Indian ship communication channel during Op Parakram, such that during the peak of Indian Military manuvere the ships that were on strict radio silance and guarding assigned flanks on western Arabian seas un-expectedly sailed home and only when they reached Mumbai, IN discovered they were spoofed with a messages that teh IN Command never sent. That was when IN rarely used a US equipment (that too on peripheral systems), what to speak of Command & Control nodes or sensor nodes, or AESA that dowes both.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Mar 2014 12:38

sigh ......................

Merkel's cell was bugged. lol. In 2013.

And, India was provided equipment to listen to the Pakis.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 16 Mar 2014 09:16

Philip wrote:Bread and circuses was the way the ancient Romans kept the population happy.Their equivalent of the T-20 and Bollywood was the arena,where for more than half the year,free entertainment in the form of the most elaborate gladiatorial contests were staged.Ever been to the Colloseum?

In the Indian context,the first blow to render India impotent was made "at the stroke of the midnight hour" way back in '47.India and Pak were made to wage war with each other ever since partition to keep them from developing their true potential and dominating world events.The manner in which we achieved Independence through Gandhi and his non-violent strategy,electrified the colonies in Africa and Asia and beyond and sounded the death-knell for the imperial/colonial era.But what replaced this era of servitude? A powerful UNSC in favour of just 5 N-weapon states,with the rest of the nations as mere observers,and a global economic structure loaded heavily in favour of the capitalist nations.Weak ,corrupt and venal leaderships and autocratic dictators were the instruments of retaining a new era of neo-colonialism through willing marionettes like Man Mohan Singh.

Back to the VikA. Given that the carrier was delayed by a few years,it is astonishing that the IN did not choose a suitable LR SAM ,plus an BPDMS for the carrier.It had more than enough time to do so and cannot blame the MOD on this score,unless there is evidence to prove otherwise. There was enough time to conduct a competition right from the start of the project or even choose the Shtil as an interim solution until B-8 (chosen how?) arrives.Even if a competition is conducted in 2014 by a new dispensation,it will take at least 3-54 years before any system is selected after extensive trials,deal signed and the same fitted onto the VikA.That a huge goof up has been made is that even the 3 Kolkatta class Delhi DDG follow-ons will arrive with no LR SAMs! Since the Barak-1 has been cleared after a grave situ appeared affecting almost all IN warships,at least this BPDMS should be installed for the moment.

Oh man, not even the two revered gurujis of this forum can compare with the pearls here.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 16 Mar 2014 20:08

@RajitO

A CBGs surface ASW is completely independent of the presence of a friendly SSN. Think of it as two rings. The SSN is the outer ring and the pointed edge. It will 'sanitise' the area ahead while the surface ASW watches close and the 'six o clock'. The combat radius of the CBG air wing is ~850 kms. The SSN will keep at least 300 kms forward of the CBG.

Diesel sub skippers are meant to be slippery operators, but would think very, very hard before messing with a SSN presence in blue waters. Life for a diesel sub will be very short if detected.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Mar 2014 21:38

Now carriers are supposed to be accompanied by a screen of DDGs for anti-air purposes and FFGs for anti-sub warfare,but look at the IN's appalling situation.The carrier has no missile defence and the DDGs,the Kolkatta class,also have no LR SAMs,,while we "wait and wait and wait" ( remember Casablanca?) for Barak-8!
Therefore,our new DDGs of the Kol class would be most useful until their LR SAMs arrive,used as coastal defence surface combatants,operating under IAF cover and not venturing out beyond the radius of cover of IAF Flankers!

If they venture far out to sea,then they will have to be defended by the Shtil SAMs of the Talwars or Shivaliks.They have almost zero capability against subs too,as they haven't got their ASW helos either,as we are short of Sea Kings and their replacements ,thanks to the painstaking efforts of our spotless dhotiwallah and his tribe of thumb twiddlers,following their master's emulation of that Roman emperor Nero infamous as a fiddler.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 16 Mar 2014 21:49

@Phillip +1

I firmly believe we have lost the military balance game in the 2010-2020 period vs PRC thanks to St Anthony.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Mar 2014 22:03

The new regime must take urgent decisions on a one-time war-footing basis,to restore the fighting capability of the armed forces asap-imports will be inevitable in the interim and plan for the pvt. sector to complement the DPSUs in raising the indigenous content of weapon systems .With competition from the pvt. sector,the DPSUs will have to perform or perish and their heads made fully accountable.

I am sure that Scamthony and Surrender Singh will get their richly deserved awards from their firang masters.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Mar 2014 22:34

NRao wrote:I love slow days (or is it divas?)

So, let us get this straight. Langley is controlling things in India and actually defanging India to keep Pakistan AND China happy.

And Ambani controls COngress (read MMS/Saint/etc). And yet he goes with the Rafale and says nothing about the F series?

And, then there is Mr. Kejriwal - a CIA agent, funded via Ford Foundation and has umpteen US leaning policy formulators on various political teams that are supposed to propose US leaning policies. And, just BTW, Kejriwal is against the very Congress that is in bed with the US? And, he is also beating up on Ambanis who control a US team lead by MMS?

And, where is this "Third Front" exactly coming from? Do they have US permission to even field political candidates (trying to understand)?

Now to matter even worse (or is it better?) Putin is joining this group? By providing dead display units for the MKI, that is. Or is Putin trying a Ukraine on India, I wonder. Grab the MKI bases - since they can see nothing. OK, get it, so the part where Putin starved Soviets provided assets to India of spares was part of this whole game, so that the US could get sales in India and defang India.

And, why has China stopped incursions? Oh, snow. So, that should start any time now. The US opposes Crimea going to the Russians, but will support AP going to China. Part of the script known to Delhiets (only?)?

And, now, fo course, the Saint is so clean that he has cleaned the MoD back account too. No funds to purchase anything for the Indian services

Or is it that Indian political system is totally corrupt and the Indian people impotent or too distracted by T-20 and Bollywood to even pay attention to matters within their country?

So many choices. I'm plumping for "... Indian people impotent or too distracted by T-20 and Bollywood to even pay attention to matters within their country."

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Mar 2014 12:40

NRao wrote:I love slow days (or is it divas?)

So, let us get this straight. Langley is controlling things in India and actually defanging India to keep Pakistan AND China happy.

And Ambani controls COngress (read MMS/Saint/etc). And yet he goes with the Rafale and says nothing about the F series?

And, then there is Mr. Kejriwal - a CIA agent, funded via Ford Foundation and has umpteen US leaning policy formulators on various political teams that are supposed to propose US leaning policies. And, just BTW, Kejriwal is against the very Congress that is in bed with the US? And, he is also beating up on Ambanis who control a US team lead by MMS?

And, where is this "Third Front" exactly coming from? Do they have US permission to even field political candidates (trying to understand)?

Now to matter even worse (or is it better?) Putin is joining this group? By providing dead display units for the MKI, that is. Or is Putin trying a Ukraine on India, I wonder. Grab the MKI bases - since they can see nothing. OK, get it, so the part where Putin starved Soviets provided assets to India of spares was part of this whole game, so that the US could get sales in India and defang India.

And, why has China stopped incursions? Oh, snow. So, that should start any time now. The US opposes Crimea going to the Russians, but will support AP going to China. Part of the script known to Delhiets (only?)?

And, now, fo course, the Saint is so clean that he has cleaned the MoD back account too. No funds to purchase anything for the Indian services

Or is it that Indian political system is totally corrupt and the Indian people impotent or too distracted by T-20 and Bollywood to even pay attention to matters within their country?

Err. Don't tax your brain too much NRao.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 17 Mar 2014 12:49

anand_sankar wrote:@RajitO

A CBGs surface ASW is completely independent of the presence of a friendly SSN.

"Surface" ASW is a new concept for me so I'll need some educating. Especially since the bulk of the fixed wing "airborne" ASW (closely co-ordinated with surface ships) is also currently not organic to an Indian CBG.

anand_sankar wrote:The SSN is the outer ring and the pointed edge. It will 'sanitise' the area ahead while the surface ASW watches close and the 'six o clock'. The combat radius of the CBG air wing is ~850 kms. The SSN will keep at least 300 kms forward of the CBG.

When reading off the USN playbook also note that:

a) They typically have 2 SSNs assigned to a CBG/CSG to do that, apart from other subs that may be in the area.
b) They have access to a range of other USW surveillance systems like SOSUS, so that they don't just send out these subs "300 kms" ahead all over the place.
c) There are quite a few LRMP assets around as well "cueing" these subs

anand_sankar wrote:Diesel sub skippers are meant to be slippery operators, but would think very, very hard before messing with a SSN presence in blue waters. Life for a diesel sub will be very short if detected.

Really? Don't confuse an SSN's endurance with some all-encompassing superpower ability. Google HMAS Sheehan and USS Olympia, or do visit some of the hardcore sub enthusiast forums to see how diesel subs "consistently" have the beating of their nuke counterparts in NATO and other exercises.

Everyone gets how important an SSN capability is to us. Let's just keep it in perspective.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Mar 2014 16:13

I think he said in blue waters. In littorals the SSN may not have the advantage, but surely it will in open ocean/blue waters given equal sensor capabilities?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 17 Mar 2014 17:01

merlin wrote:I think he said in blue waters. In littorals the SSN may not have the advantage, but surely it will in open ocean/blue waters given equal sensor capabilities?

1. So are we having an abstract discussion around "blue waters" or taking a closer look at the marine topography wrt the Chinese and the potential areas we might find ourselves operating in?

2. You do know that diesel boats are quieter than nukes underwater? (unless we are talking super-stealthy USN SSBNs that have had millions spent on making them super quiet). So what is your basis for saying that?

3. What makes you think NATO exercises were held only in littorals? Remember the enemy they were supposed to be training against? Like I said do Google, and you'll see enough evidence of "blue water" successes by diesel subs.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Mar 2014 17:22

RajitO wrote: Really? Don't confuse an SSN's endurance with some all-encompassing superpower ability. Google HMAS Sheehan and USS Olympia, or do visit some of the hardcore sub enthusiast forums to see how diesel subs "consistently" have the beating of their nuke counterparts in NATO and other exercises.

Everyone gets how important an SSN capability is to us. Let's just keep it in perspective.

Oh! I had always thought that due to bigger size and bigger sonar plus more power for that sonar, an akula would see an agosta or U-Sub from much more distance and target it more easily.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Mar 2014 19:10

RajitO wrote:
merlin wrote:I think he said in blue waters. In littorals the SSN may not have the advantage, but surely it will in open ocean/blue waters given equal sensor capabilities?

2. You do know that diesel boats are quieter than nukes underwater? (unless we are talking super-stealthy USN SSBNs that have had millions spent on making them super quiet). So what is your basis for saying that?

Only when not snorkeling. How many days can they run on batter?

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 17 Mar 2014 21:01

Keeping away from getting too deep into the diesel sub vs SSN debate, it is pertinent to note the scenario I am talking about.

I have clearly mentioned that the carrier is going to be at least ~850 kms away from the coast at any point. It will be in blue waters. It will have to stay away from coastal defences, shore based fighters and littoral submarines. In between the SSN will play a guard dog,

Only the SSN can do that, we all agree, only it has the endurance to keep up with the random daily high speed movements of a CBG.

A given tactical scenario can deliver an advantage to anybody. Quite rightly some diesel subs have trumped in NATO exercises. I have also maintained that diesel sub skippers will be very smart, as they know they have to fight using unorthodox tactics.

But performance advantage in combat will always be with an SSN. Too many base factors loaded in its favour. In a crunch a diesel sub will take its chances to get at a CBG, but it will almost always be a one way trip, with chances of success very lottery like.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 17 Mar 2014 21:23

anand_sankar wrote:Keeping away from getting too deep into the diesel sub vs SSN debate, it is pertinent to note the scenario I am talking about.

I have clearly mentioned that the carrier is going to be at least ~850 kms away from the coast at any point. It will be in blue waters. It will have to stay away from coastal defences, shore based fighters and littoral submarines. In between the SSN will play a guard dog,

Only the SSN can do that, we all agree, only it has the endurance to keep up with the random daily high speed movements of a CBG.

I agree "we should knock it off", given this is not the thread for it.

Let's agree to disagree about the "we all agree" part. A few minutes of googling would have clarified the depth of certain misconceptions...but BR is always more about opinions and less about empirical perspectives, so par for the course.

rudradeep · Post by **rudradeep** » 17 Mar 2014 21:24

Just my 2 paise on this SSN Vs Diesel Boats:
A diesel boat (SSK) is quieter than a SSN only because it can either run on it's battery (with a severe restriction on speed and endurance) or by completely shutting down (a SSN cannot shut down completely as it would need some pump motors to be working 24*7 to keep the coolant circulating in the reactor). Please note that in both these cases the SSK cannot prosecute a carrier unless the carrier blunders in to it's range. The minute a SSK starts it's diesel engine (to either snorkel or catch up with the carrier) it is game over for it as a SSN or other ship based defences of the CBG will 'see' it from far away.

Also, quieteness of a submarine has got nothing to do with Littoral or Open blue Sea. SSKs are considered more 'effective' in littoral areas becasue they can go to a number of places which a SSN cannot as they are much bigger in size and need more depth to operate safely. So this when coupled with a severe degradation of 'passive' sonar performance in the littorals, creates an equal-equal for the SSK (as the engagement ranges are lower and compensates the SSKs slower speeds) that it can use to it's advantage (Imagine lurking in silent mode in the only channel through which a ship/submarine can pass safely through narrow waters). This is why most SSKs are used to defend your coastal/littoral areas and SSNs are used to prosecute other submarines in the open sea.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 17 Mar 2014 21:43

rudradeep wrote:Please note that in both these cases the SSK cannot prosecute a carrier unless the carrier blunders in to it's range. The minute a SSK starts it's diesel engine (to either snorkel or catch up with the carrier) it is game over for it as a SSN or other ship based defences of the CBG will 'see' it from far away.

Since this is at least related to carrier warfare (as was the original discussion which went OT), here's my 2 paise as well:

a) Almost 90 percent of winning engagements in a war is all about who makes the least mistakes. CBGs smug in the knowledge of SSK disadvantages get complacent and make those blunders, which get punished. Those "old salts" commanding SSKs have, like their U-Boat forefathers before them, usually got themselves in excellent positions to ambush their adversaries...because as has been highlighted, they only get one shot at it, literally.

b) Since we seem to be reflecting the larger USN position on nukes vs SSKs it would only be fair to complete that POV and highlight how one of the biggest laments in the USN is about their steady erosion of ASW skills and capability- especially in their organic-fixed wing ASW which they lost when the S-3 Viking was retired. There is a parallel with us since we used to have the Alizes in the past as well.

vic · Post by **vic** » 17 Mar 2014 22:15

SSK is like a maneuverable mine and any target has to come in it's path and range. SSN is hunter killer which can hunt and kill it's prey. Footprint of SSN is equivalent to 3-5 SSKs. IMP factoid, SSN are difficult to catch and destroy even if detected as they can outrun and outdive torpedoes. It is also difficult to triangulate the position of SSNs due to their speed and diving depth capability. Also SSNs will be able to carry Brahmos and stay out of range of enemy sonars.

John · Post by **John** » 17 Mar 2014 22:41

Diesel/Conventional submarines are effective when they are cheap and mass produced however with price tag of subs like Scorpene are far too high thanks in part to its electronics as well huge amount of imports materials and $$ from various vendors involved. Scorpene per vessel all said and done will cost more than P-15A

IMO we should have continued building desi U-209s for 200 mill/each and slowly improving on it, while procuring 3 Scorpene built in France and no more to get our hands on CMS which can be incorporated into our future SSNs.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 05 Jun 2014 03:56

Safety scare on Gorshkov

New Delhi, June 4: A new fighter jet of the Indian Navy was partly damaged after a “hard landing” on the deck of the INS Vikramaditya today, less than a month after the aircraft carrier was declared “fully operational”.

The carrier — earlier called Admiral Gorshkov — and the aircraft were bought with a lot of taxpayer money and after years of delay.

The incident calls to question a history of tardiness in procurement of weapons-platforms, combined with challenges thrown to Arun Jaitley, who has succeeded A.K. Antony as defence minister.
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Navy sources described today’s incident as a “hard landing” to distinguish it from a crash. The nose wheel of the jet, a MiG29K — also procured from Russia like the Vikramaditya — is said to have been partly damaged. The MiG29K has tandem cockpits. Both pilots are safe, navy sources said.

The incident happened off the coast of Goa late this afternoon. The aircraft had taken off from the INS Hansa naval air station at Dabolim, where it is shore-based, and was to land on the Vikramaditya in manoeuvres that the vessel and its aircraft have been engaged in since May 7. That was when navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan announced the carrier was fully operational with its combat aircraft integrated.
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Even if the potential for damage to a carrier and its aircraft is great, “hard landings” are not all that infrequent because of the complex techniques involved in landing and take-off from a sailing ship.
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The MiG29K is designed to land on the Vikramaditya with a tail-hook that has to be trapped in one of three arrester cables on the deck that will force the jet to come to a stop. (Just imagine a sprinter being forced to stop by a tape that cannot be breached, many times over). But the pilots of the jet cannot cut power so much that the aircraft may not be able to take off if the tail-hook fails to trap the arresters.

Navy sources said that in the waters off Goa this evening, the MiG29K failed to “trap” the first two arrester cables but took the third.

That caused the “hard landing” because the pilots were powering up (increasing throttle) to take-off after having missed the first two cables.

Apparently, the shock of the trap and the landing was so much that the nose of the aircraft pointed skywards before the plane dropped down on its nose wheel. The impact damaged the nose wheel. The arrester cables force the aircraft to stop on landing, bringing the aircraft from a speed of about 300kmph to zero in fractions of a second.
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crap
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Look at this reporter/journalist/bewakoof making silly statements. how does a hard landing have any relationship to procurement? Notice that later in the report, he himself mentions hard landings are not infrequent. Hard landings sometimes happens on civil aircraft too when they have lots of runway space available.

He should have just limited to reporting the issue as it occurred and not tried taxing his brains on "analysis". And this is basically a non-event. Yes, hard landings happens, accept it. Once the SBTF is fully operational, more practise runs can happen there, but even that will not rule out hard-landings. Carrier air ops are one of the toughest things out there.