Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 17 Mar 2014 06:42

This "internet of things" always seems one hair away from becoming a real problem. Today it might be a/c, tomorrow trains, buses, cars and whatever else - probably even the damn coffee maker.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 06:42

A_Gupta wrote:About hack-jacking, the person whose experience of explosive decompression that I had cut&paste here says:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... l#comments

Us old pilots have a saying,"If ain't a Boeing, I ain't going". There is a reason for this.

Boeing design philosophy has maintained a connection with traditions of aircraft design and redundancies, which the only other builder of large aircraft, Airbus Industries, has not. Airbus has opted for leading edge computer automation of every aircraft system they can place it on.

Here is an example,Flight Controls. Air Bus is all electronic activated with no actual control cables running from the cockpit to the control surfaces. Boeing went this route on the 777 (it saves a good deal of weight) but…..in a nod to "sometimes unexpected things happen in the air philosophy", Boeing put in a back up manual control system, with which the pilots could manually land the aircraft in a dire emergency with no electronics. In an Airbus if the electronics are gone, you soon will be also.

To answer your question about software vulnerability/weaknesses.

On the current generation of aircraft, I don't believe it is a threat. In the future it no doubt will be. There really is no central operating system as such in the electronics suite of the 777. The autopilot (there are actually three of them ) comes closest to that description, and it has no signals reception capability from outside the aircraft, other than navigation signals. The various system that can receive signals from the ground, have to go thru a pilot review, and then be manually connected to other systems by the pilot.

I would tell new guys, "hey ,if the damn automation gets ahead of you, just click these two automation cutoff buttons, and it will fly like a J-3 Piper Cub". They did, and it would.

I think this belongs in two genres - one being the competition between Boeing and Airbus and the second being the fact that a lot of pilots have said that pilot training nowadays does not include "seat of pants" flying that teaches pilots what to do in a situation where your senses and your instruments are feeding you with wrong info.

I think that Air France Airbus crashed because the pilot should have sensed a possible stall and pushed the plane's nose down. Instead he chose to believe a faulty reading and ignore other warnings and pulled the nose up leading to a stall and a crash. I can't recall the exact details - need to ask Uncle Gokul.

But Airbus does have more automation than Boeing as per Wiki, National Geographic channel and Discovery channel - those centers of aviation excellence.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 06:46

Cynical timing or what! TV in Northern Himachal is showing this movie where a 747 with a bum-e-nook or bum-e-nerve gas is heading for coast of Great Satan, controlled by "Sword of Alla*" carrying AK-47s, and F-14s are loading up Sidewinders to shoot it down.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 06:50

What if the pilot real one, put the plane in auto pilot and started down loading virus infected you know what ( the pilot was a playboy they said)
his attitude was revealed when he said into intercom transmitting to the passengers {like this}

They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say...Let 'em crash!!

Airplane the movie

one of the earliest fly by wire Airbus crashed in Bangalore which had no manual over ride.
Since then they have incorporated the option.

Flight 605 was a A320 fly-by-wire flight on 14 February 1990 that crashed on its final approach to Bangalore airport, killing 92 people.
The airplane, an Airbus A320-231, flew from Mumbai (then called Bombay) airport to Bangalore-Hindustan Airport, taking off at 11:58. While executing a visual approach to runway 09, the plane came in too low on its final approach and still continued to descend, so it hit the ground at a golf club. However, it did not come to rest immediately, but became airborn again for a short time, then, back on the ground, it lost its engines and gears to an embankment and came to its final stop after that, at 13:03.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 06:53

U r right about the difference in design philosophy, and it is seen in the accident record.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 06:58

here is Boeing autopilot version 1.14375

http://tinyurl.com/7xndsqy

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 17 Mar 2014 07:11

UlanBatori wrote:U r right about the difference in design philosophy, and it is seen in the accident record.

Can you elaborate on this. Would be interesting data to note.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 07:19

Wrong thread, discussed many saal pehle, no interest, thx. Back to CTs.. Alpha Strike Team just getting ready to storm into the hijacked cabin like The Wild Bunch in Trinity Is Still My Name

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 07:21

http://www.airfleets.net/crash/stat_plane.htm

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Mar 2014 07:22

Missing Malaysia Airlines jet may have flown under radar: investigators

Kuala Lumpur: Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 dropped to altitudes as low as 1524 metres (5000 feet) using a dangerous flying technique called “terrain masking” to avoid radar in at least three countries

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 07:35

If they had ground support from their accoplice (s), could they have had more fuel than reported? T

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Mar 2014 07:36

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... 70-3251083

those concentric circles are approx. 30mins apart, it could come close to the Indian mainland coast in the intervening 5hrs from the last military radar contact to the red line, but that locks in the northern corridor as the final direction

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Mar 2014 07:37

saip wrote:If they had ground support from their accoplice (s), could they have had more fuel than reported? T

saip: I said that several pages back. If ground accomplice is there, lot of things are possible.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 07:38

Nijalingappa wrote: one of the earliest fly by wire Airbus crashed in Bangalore which had no manual over ride.
Since then they have incorporated the option.

Flight 605 was a A320 fly-by-wire flight on 14 February 1990 that crashed on its final approach to Bangalore airport, killing 92 people.
The airplane, an Airbus A320-231, flew from Mumbai (then called Bombay) airport to Bangalore-Hindustan Airport, taking off at 11:58. While executing a visual approach to runway 09, the plane came in too low on its final approach and still continued to descend, so it hit the ground at a golf club. However, it did not come to rest immediately, but became airborn again for a short time, then, back on the ground, it lost its engines and gears to an embankment and came to its final stop after that, at 13:03.

This particular crash had nothing to do with FBW. The pilot approached too low and wanted more power to coast up to start of runway. He hit the throttle but the spool up time of the turbofan did not allow enough thrust to be generated and the plane crashed short of runway. I lost some family friends in that accident.

The Airbus FBW crash was at the Paris air show where the pilot approached low for a fly by and wanted to pull up but the software wanted him to land and did not allow him to pull up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 07:41

Gerard wrote:Missing Malaysia Airlines jet may have flown under radar: investigators
Kuala Lumpur: Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 dropped to altitudes as low as 1524 metres (5000 feet) using a dangerous flying technique called “terrain masking” to avoid radar in at least three countries

Brilliant geniuses these guys. It must have "dropped under the radar" to be missing for so long

Now how far will a 777 go if it climbs, descends, climbs, turns this way and that and flies at low altitude. It might not even reach India let alone Kazakhstan. I just love the terrain masking that can be done over the sea. Need to ask my Aunt Kokila/Uncle Gokul how far away the earth's curvature is fora plane at 5000 feet.

Just did that - and Kokila auntie tells me horizon is about 140 km away at 5000 feet. I thought radar avoidance required less than 1000 feet. Jagan's 1965 war book speaks of Gnats at 50 feet (fifty feet onlee/a nifty feat onlee)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 07:48

That military radar that picked up the aircraft.. what altitude did it detect?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 17 Mar 2014 07:50

MH370 picture exclusive: Pilot wears anti-government slogan t-shirt amid fears he hijacked missing jet
by Josh Layton, mirror.co.uk
March 16th 2014 6:00 AM

The pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines jet is pictured in a T-shirt with a Democracy is Dead slogan as fears emerge he could have hijacked the plane as an anti-government protest.

Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah was a fervent supporter of his country's opposition leader who was jailed for homosexuality - illegal in Malaysia - only hours before flight MH370 vanished with 239 passengers and crew on board, the Sunday Mirror can reveal.

And in a new twist, it emerged that the pilot's wife and three children moved out of the family's home the day before the plane's disappearance.

Not sure what to believe about MH370? We debunk the myths here.

The revelations came after Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak yesterday confirmed the Boeing 777 jet was deliberately diverted from its planned route between his country's capital Kuala Lumpur and Beijing.

Investigators said trackers aboard the plane, which transmit its location to air traffic controllers, were disabled moments after take-off last Friday.

And the airliner could have flown on for seven hours after vanishing from radar over the South China Sea.

Police raided the pilot's home in the suburbs of Kuala Lumpur on Saturday.

They spent two hours at the gated property and left carrying small bags believed to contain evidence.

They also found that the experienced pilot, who has worked for Malaysia Airlines since 1981, had built a Boeing 777 flight simulator inside.

Follow the latest developments in the search with our live blog here

But his friend Peter Chong insisted Capt Zaharie, 53, would be "the last person" to hijack the aircraft.

He told the Sunday Mirror: "I would trust that man with my life. He loves people and being involved in something like that would hurt people. I would not believe he was involved in any way at all. If I went on a plane and was allowed the choice of a pilot, I would choose Captain Zaharie."

Mr Chong last saw his friend a week before the jet vanished. He said the two had agreed to meet up this week and that the pilot had been "his normal, cheerful self".

But now he has become a focus of the police investigation.

Landing sites: The red dots show all the places MH370 could have landed within the search area

On Twitter and YouTube he has backed human rights groups and campaigners for internet freedom in Malaysia, which has strict Government controls.

The slogan on his T-shirt, as he poses with his pal Peter, is dated May 5, 2013 - the date of the country's elections which led to violent protests against alleged poll fraud.

Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim called activists on to the streets and Capt Zaharie has "liked" videos by Ibrahim posted on YouTube.

Ibrahim was sentenced to five years in jail on gay sex charges on March 7, provoking widescale condemnation across the country.

The jet vanished in the early hours of the 8th.

Experts say it could have crossed up to 14 countries and landed safely in Kazakhstan or crashed into the Indian Ocean.

Mr Chong, a political secretary to a Malaysian MP, described his friend as "a very caring person who puts people ahead of himself".

He said the pilot installed a mock-up of a 777 cockpit at his home only "to share his joy of flying with friends".

Capt Zaharie posted snaps of himself with the Boeing simulator on his Facebook page, along with another showing him brandishing a meat cleaver and holding a bowl of mince.

Mr Chong said Capt Zaharie would have done everything to ensure his 227 passengers were safe in the event of a hijack.

He was angry at suggestions the pilot could have "gone rogue" and hijacked his own plane.

Mr Chong said: "I just do not believe it until there is concrete evidence to prove otherwise. What I hope has happened is that it has been hijacked (by a passenger), landed somewhere and negotiations are going on."
[..]

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 07:53

matrimc wrote:
saip wrote:If they had ground support from their accoplice (s), could they have had more fuel than reported? T
saip: I said that several pages back. If ground accomplish is there, lot of things are possible.

You might have. But do the Malaysians doing anything about it? It took them 7/8 days to search the Pilot's house even though now they say his wife left the house the very next day with her children. May be the ground accomplices did not even load the baggage to keep the plane light and increase the range.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 07:58

Shiv:
"Military radar" and "engine data" reported 45000 feet changing to 20,000 feet in 1 minute, leveling off at 23000 feet... Djinn anti-gravity onlee.
So a 777 was flown terrain-following? These guys are really freaking out.

I think the key point that is being missed is that it was a Saturday night/Sunday morning. Most of the military radar stations etc wouldn't have known if a herd of elephants flew past and peed on them. I think they are ALL covering up. Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, and all the western navies and spy satellite monitors and Engine Data monitors.All had systems shut off and were out drinking.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 07:58

anmol wrote:
Landing sites: The red dots show all the places MH370 could have landed within the search area

Heck - guess I was wrong. I read that the chowkidar responsible for counting all the aircraft on the tarmac at Kolkata has been missing for 10 days. The plane could be in Kolkata.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:01

saip wrote: You might have. But do the Malaysians doing anything about it? It took them 7/8 days to search the Pilot's house even though now they say his wife left the house the very next day with her children. May be the ground accomplices did not even load the baggage to keep the plane light and increase the range.

And the baggage at the airport was secretly loaded onto other aircraft and sent to all those red dots on the map above.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 08:02

Did it have enough fuel to reach Somalia? Maybe the container-ship pirates have diversified their bijnej

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:08

UlanBatori wrote:Shiv:
"Military radar" and "engine data" reported 45000 feet changing to 20,000 feet in 1 minute, leveling off at 23000 feet... Djinn anti-gravity onlee.
So a 777 was flown terrain-following? These guys are really freaking out.

45,000 feet to 20,000 in one minute. About 4 miles a minute or 4000 kmph. The future is here - I used to read in "Science Today" in 1968 that planes would be able to fly at 4000 kmph by 1984. The levelling off manoeuvre has been known for a long time. Here is a video demo of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dDzKIireAw

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:11

UlanBatori wrote:Did it have enough fuel to reach Somalia? Maybe the container-ship pirates have diversified their bijnej

I think a lot of errors have been there in reporting. Ever climbed 3-4 flights of stairs and noticed how out of breath you are?Planes too find it difficult to climb - so at low level, where there is plenty of oxygen to breathe - they can fly further. Besides terrain following is easy at low level - you can see the road signs and all. Somalia is quite likely.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 08:13

Probably lowered the landing gear to get support from the terrain and reduce need for aerodynamic lift. Very fuel-efficient that way. Tires are rubber filled with air, so they float, you know!

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 08:17

Please read this report

http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/IndianAir ... Report.pdf

Probable Cause of the Accident
3. The full text of Part IX of the report entitled "Probable Cause of the Accident” is as follows:
"Failure of the pilots to realise the gravity of the situation and respond immediately towards
proper action of moving the throttles even after the Radio altitude call-outs of "Four Hundred".
"Three Hundred" and "Two Hundred" feet, in spite of knowing that the plane was in idle/open
descent mode. However, identification of the cause for the engagement of idle/open descent
mode on short final approach during the crucial period of the flight is not possible."

• 4. The first sentence of the quotation above deals. with the " cause of the accident ", while the
second sentence deals with the "cause of the aircraft going into the idle/open descent mode on
This crash would not have happened if the pilots had taken any one of the following action:
• (a) if the vertical speed of 700 feet as asked for by Capt. Fernandez at about DFDR 294
seconds had been selected and aircraft had continued in speed/vertical speed mode;
• (b) if both the flight directors had been switched off between DFDR seconds 312 to 317
seconds;
• (c) by taking over manual control of thrust i.e. disconnecting auto thrust system and
manually pushing the thrust levers to TOGA (take off - go around) position at or before
DFDR 320 seconds (9 seconds to first impact on golf course).
• (d) if the go around altitude of 6000 feet had been selected on the FCU in accordance
with the standard procedure at the time it was asked for by Capt. Fernandez."
approach".

In para 53 at page 334 of the report, the Judge has commented as follows:
"(53) There is nothing to indicate that pilots were aware of the speed falling; these are two
experienced pilots out of whom one is on his first route check in this aircraft. The calmness of
cockpit atmosphere indicates that their mind was elsewhere; if not at that point of time, pilots
should have resorted to manual operation of the throttles, instead of searching for the cause for
the idle/open descent mode .... "

more here

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... in/165850/

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Mar 2014 08:30

shiv wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Shiv:
"Military radar" and "engine data" reported 45000 feet changing to 20,000 feet in 1 minute, leveling off at 23000 feet... Djinn anti-gravity onlee.
So a 777 was flown terrain-following? These guys are really freaking out.
45,000 feet to 20,000 in one minute. About 4 miles a minute or 4000 kmph. The future is here - I used to read in "Science Today" in 1968 that planes would be able to fly at 4000 kmph by 1984. The levelling off manoeuvre has been known for a long time. Here is a video demo of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dDzKIireAw

The Wall Street Journal retracted their statement about the info. on which that 45,000 feet to 20,000 feet in one minute was based (which was non-existent Rolls Royce engine data).

There is no press statement anywhere about the military radar observing that kind of descent.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:35

Nijalingappa wrote:Please read this report

http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/IndianAir ... Report.pdf

Here is one more, in great detail
http://flightsafety.org/ap/ap_jan94.pdf

This below was the last chance to save the aircraft:

“[The pilot flying] continued to fly the aircraft, which
was going down much below the required profile until
he realized at 1303:10 that he may not be able to land at
the proper place and said, ‘Hey, we are going down!’ He
then pulled back fully the side stick, activating ‘alpha
floor protection’ at 1303:11. The aircraft was then at
135 feet [41.2 meters] AGL. Activation of alpha floor
protection [designed as wind shear protection that acti-
vates if certain parameters are exceeded] generated an
EPR [engine pressure ratio] command for full power to
both engines. Around two seconds later both the throttle
levers were also pushed to the TOGA [takeoff/go-around]
position by the crew. Engine power started building, but
could not develop adequate power to arrest the descent.
The aircraft touched the ground and hit the embankment
of the golf course.

The report said that “if the thrust levers
would have been moved to TOGA posi-
tion simultaneously when [the pilot fly-
ing] initiated [the] side stick movement
backwards at 1303:08, then [the] en-
gines would have got [an] additional
three seconds to accelerate and would
have attained go-around power. In such
a case, the accident could have been
avoided

Pilot error here:

The CVR indicated that about 21 sec-
onds before the crash, the check pilot
asked the pilot flying, “You want the
FDs [flight directors] off now?” The
flying pilot replied, “Yes, OK, I already
put it off.” The check pilot then replied,
“But you did not put off mine.”
“DFDR data reveal that at least one of the FDs remained
engaged up to the time of [the] crash. The autothrust
mode logic states that if neither autopilot nor FD is
engaged, the autothrust will be active in ‘speed mode’
only. Since in [this case] the aircraft never went into the
‘speed mode’ during this [last] phase, it corroborates
that the FD of [the check pilot] was not disengaged
[until] the time of [the] crash

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:41

A_Gupta wrote:There is no press statement anywhere about the military radar observing that kind of descent.

Is there any report about the altitude at which the military radar monitored the unidentified aircraft.

As far as I have been able to surmise the military radar followed an unidentified aircraft and did not know it was flt 370. Clearly that did not arouse their suspicion if reports are to be believed. After the flight went missing they have gone back and looked at their data and then realized that "Duh - here is an unidentified aircraft trace".

Is there an assumption that the unidentified aircraft was actually flt 370 or could it have been some other aircraft. To confirm that the Malaysian radar operators should have records that identify ever single radar return they have got during that period along with ATC corroboration from the civilian set up. The IAF has that as per reports, but do the Malaysians have that?

What is the evidence that the military radar picked up flt 370 and not some other aircraft?

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 08:45

shiv wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Shiv:
"Military radar" and "engine data" reported 45000 feet changing to 20,000 feet in 1 minute, leveling off at 23000 feet... Djinn anti-gravity onlee.
So a 777 was flown terrain-following? These guys are really freaking out.
45,000 feet to 20,000 in one minute. About 4 miles a minute or 4000 kmph. The future is here - I used to read in "Science Today" in 1968 that planes would be able to fly at 4000 kmph by 1984. The levelling off manoeuvre has been known for a long time. Here is a video demo of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dDzKIireAw

How many minutes are there in an hour?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2014 08:46

UB
Sure puts the fear of flying MAS airlines!

Erica Jong

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 08:48

saip wrote:
shiv wrote: 45,000 feet to 20,000 in one minute. About 4 miles a minute or 4000 kmph. The future is here - I used to read in "Science Today" in 1968 that planes would be able to fly at 4000 kmph by 1984. The levelling off manoeuvre has been known for a long time. Here is a video demo of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dDzKIireAw
How many minutes are there in an hour?

600

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2014 08:48

Imo its not sheer waste for India. A chance to test our kit and procedures for later.

time in the nets or on the road is not waste.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 17 Mar 2014 08:48

UlanBatori wrote:Shiv:
"Military radar" and "engine data" reported 45000 feet changing to 20,000 feet in 1 minute, leveling off at 23000 feet... Djinn anti-gravity onlee.
So a 777 was flown terrain-following? These guys are really freaking out.

General Buck Turgidson explains how a Humongous jet could have made all the way to Central Asia (or ULanbator) by Terrain following ( he puts it as "Frying Chickens in the Barnyards").
Now we know how MH370 reached Shangri La through the Northern Route.

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 08:50

Seriously, there was this chairwoman of the NTSB who said they have never seen an aircraft drop that much in any accidents they have investigated. So the data regarding the drop in altitude is obviously wrong

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 17 Mar 2014 08:50

Malaysiyan PM spoke to both MMS and Nawaz per a news channel requesting their assistance. It gets murkier.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 08:51

My calculations show a G force of 5 (aaprox) the subjects were subjected to assuming angle of descent 30 degrees

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 17 Mar 2014 08:53

Good news is per one report India does have radars in the A&N region but they are switched on based on the threat perception. So the capability is there.

Good news is we are not completely nanga there. It is just that the IAF that needs to zip up the fly.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 08:57

At least we need to have Radar masts that are static and facing towards East and south ( to avoid wear and tear. the Admiral referred to about rotating parts ) and tracking
Say like UK coastal defense during Battle of Britain?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2014 08:58

And patch few holes in the pants. The an is a very long chain of islands...3 radars don't cut it.
paco need more protein.
land version of our bel radrs like aruthra can help.no bideshi needed.