Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2014 21:41

symontk wrote:But there also ICAO code for Singapore airlines in SIA

http://airlinecodes.info/sia/airline-code-sia

But flight numbers are used with IATA codes. And so SIA68 is not Singapore airline flight

SQ68/SIA68 is Singapore Airlines Barcelona to Sau Paolo flight.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 21:41

loading a spare spoof transponder and providing the means to switch it is a non trivial activity - and subject to a large number of checks and controls in engineering...

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 Mar 2014 21:41

Call signs are ICAO, I had posted them before. Its for Singapore airlines. But the blog was comparing MH370 which is a flight number with SIA368 which is a call sign. Is it possible to be inaccurate like that?

Too convenient

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Mar 2014 21:42

LINK

ACARS can be used to send messages and data of all types, including text messages from pilots to dispatchers, or automatically generated data on the health of the plane.
Tracking Malaysia Air flight 370 Waiting is the hardest part for families Private ships search for missing flight WEB EXTRA: A timeline of flight 370
When a plane is over land, ACARS messages typically are sent via VHF radio. But when a plane is in remote regions, or over water and out of range of VHF radio, the signal is seamlessly switched to satellite. "The pilot doesn't have to do anything," said Coiley said.

------
Those intermediate pings were over VHF radio? Hence land

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 21:43

Question. If MH370 flew low to avoid radar why did the Singapore airlines flight that it was shadowing also fly low? I think this proves my theory that planes get more oxygen at lower levels and feel less tired and can fly further.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 21:43

no, the pings were on the INMARSAT satellite - positioned over the IOR, but possibly also the one over the POR

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2014 21:45

Has anyone heard from Boeing about this flight? All these scenarios should be validated by them to find the most probable cause.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 21:46

shiv wrote:Question. If MH370 flew low to avoid radar why did the Singapore airlines flight that it was shadowing also fly low? I think this proves my theory that planes get more oxygen at lower levels and feel less tired and can fly further.

saar... pls to read up on thermodynamics onleee.. jet engines follow an efficiency curve... which means that optimal range is to be had to high altitude

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Mar 2014 21:46

symontk wrote:Only possibility is MH370 used a Over Flight approval for another approved flight and went over. And so no one is able to trace it. It changed the transponder of another flight and used its sqawk code

Then what happened to the original flight? There are no checks for duplicate elimination or at least an alert if the timing is off outside a range?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Mar 2014 21:47

To me, there seems to be some method to madness of the aircraft being at way-points which are the fringe of respective Flight Information Region (FIR).

Also, I'm still not comfortable with assuming that the flight went from east-to-west coast flying over northern part of Malaysian airspace. For a simple reason that if this was an effort to commandeer the a/c for some-other purpose, I cannot take a flight path which is outside of Air-Traffic Service (ATS) routes and WISH that military radars will not detect me. Or, if they do, I will not have couple of Su-30 or F-18 breathing down my neck.

I had written this earlier as well with data points that as of early 2013, Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) has engaged western companies to implement a sophisticated Air Defense Ground Environment System - the company which did this proudly claimed that at its center is the same system which is used in NORAD.

Whatever was done, it was done with utmost planning...and I still hold that a/c flew over Thailand and reached the western coast.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 Mar 2014 21:48

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:UB, I thought from above posts one can't re-program the transponder in flight. The ground sensors will see that.
Is it postulated that a spare transponder with another flight code was turned on?
Spare could be loaded during the maintanence phase ie ground crew is in on the plan.
That would mean the Malay politician sentencing is moot for they would not know when and what the outcome was.
Can we close that leg of the fault tree?
Ramana a spare transponder that has the codes for some other flight assumes that the exact flight to be spoofed was already planned out because the code cannot be simply changed at will. And if that spare is switched on there will be two aircraft flying with the same code and both will respond to interrogation with the same code.

That plane has crashed in the ocean and the whole world is in denial.

If you have 2 more flight plans (apart from the MH370) for the same sqawk code, no problem. You switch, the MH-370 with the new sqwak code goes one way, the other one with the same sqawk code goes another way. no one will notice and the switching is happening over sea where there are no RADARS

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 21:49

Shiv:
Mode S transponder on sale: reduced from $3500 to $2982.14

Plug and Play Installation.
The TT31 is TSO approved for fitting to European and FAA registered aircraft. A new software upgrade to add FAA TSO C166b is in the process of certification and expected in the second half of 2011. This certification and a connection to an appropriate GPS will make the TT31 compliant with the FAA final rule on ADS-B for 2020.

All Mode S transponder upgrades for EASA certified aircraft must be carried out by a licensed engineer using a Minor Change approved by EASA. The TT31 plug and play design minimises the cost and downtime for the upgrade, and our library of pre-approved Minor Changes for popular aircraft types means that for many customers there are no EASA fees to pay either!

That's as big as it is. No need to string wires to the cockpit etc: in the movie I was watching yesterdin, this whole army of guys was hiding in the instrumentation compartment (big as a library) below the cabin, eyeing the houris from ankle level up through periscopes.
But all said and done, I don't see the point of the exercise. Change to another airplane and do what? How long does it take them to find out that either A) one airplane was at 2 places simultaneously or

one airplane simply did not exist? or C) One airplane was not airborne at all that day. Maybe too long. Can one tell from transponder code between a 777 and a Learjet? Speeds are about the same..

As for the code itself, that is not hard-wired at the factory, I am sure. The one I used to fly had a code that was tied to its current owner, and that was certainly bought 3rd-hand or 4th hand.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2014 21:51

Did anyone look at Kandhar or some such place where passengers could be feted by Talibs? Flying under the shadow of Another plane to hide from radar coverage from Andamans or Kolkata is not easy but not impossible either especially if captain is well experienced one. If he wanted to take plane to Afg then that is the probable explanation unless it is lying in Andaman sea under 12000 feet of watery grave. But what could be the motive. Only Americans, perhaps, know this.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 Mar 2014 21:51

matrimc wrote:
symontk wrote:Only possibility is MH370 used a Over Flight approval for another approved flight and went over. And so no one is able to trace it. It changed the transponder of another flight and used its sqawk code
Then what happened to the original flight? There are no checks for duplicate elimination or at least an alert if the timing is off outside a range?

Get two flight plans for two countries and two totally different destinations. switch one and take the other and proceed. No one will be able to find out

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 17 Mar 2014 21:52

shiv:

When shadowing a plane, the MH had to be radio silent; i.e. its transponder were not broadcasting anything. That is feasible; they do not have to spoof the other plane.

Regarding discrimination between the two planes. The question is:

Was anyone looking?

ATC was expecting a 777 and they got their 777.

Military radars were expecting a 777 and they got that and something more. Now the military has to investigate that something more instead of a regular scan. Did the military try to distinguish and see whether it was a single plane or a double plane?

If I were a radar operator tracking a routine flight, I would not be worried. That is human nature.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 21:53

Not that I would like to be in that situation but if I was in a flight that was obviously going wrong I would switch on my cellphone and ask everyone to do that and keep trying to call. The cabin staff too would know that something was the matter. Maybe people would try and bash in the pilot's door - because after one stage you know you are going to die anyway and you don't care.

I don't know how strong cockpit doors are now but I suspect that can be bashed in by the concerted efforts of 8 or 10 men and assorted equipment that one can find in an aircraft cabin. After all - if your flight is hours overdue and the cabin crew do not have meals or water and the toilets are filthy you can't hide trouble from 250 passengers.

In fact if I was convinced that the game was up and that we would die anyway I might simply open one of the doors and say "What the heck?"

249 passengers cannot be so dumb that they sat and did nothing while a plane flew for 4 or 5 hours longer than necessary knowing that things wer badly wrong.

That plane is down in the ocean. RIP.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Mar 2014 21:54

If all pings are on Inmarsat then outside Acars ground coverage all the while, along with the arc doesn't it reduce the zone?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 21:55

Lalmohan wrote:
shiv wrote:Question. If MH370 flew low to avoid radar why did the Singapore airlines flight that it was shadowing also fly low? I think this proves my theory that planes get more oxygen at lower levels and feel less tired and can fly further.
saar... pls to read up on thermodynamics onleee.. jet engines follow an efficiency curve... which means that optimal range is to be had to high altitude

Not at all. Never. Ne c'est pas possible. How can engines fly better with less oxygen? They will surely get tired early and have high altitude sickness. Besides - it gets so cold up there that the engine fire will go out.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Mar 2014 21:58

What if they landed, took the transponder, put it on another plane and went merrily beeping to ACARS, INMARSAT and all the rest?

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 21:59

chaanakya wrote:Its SQ for Singapore Airlines

http://www.airlinecodes.info/iata-code-sq
SQ is flight route code for Singapore Airlines. SIAxxx is call sign assigned by ATC. Check flightradar24.com
http://www.flightradar24.com/2014-03-07 ... .6,99.48/7

Click on any flight with SIA call sign. SQ368/SIA368 is up there and you can see it crossing over pakistan around midnight.

SIA68 is the singapore airlines flight from Singapore to Barcelona to Sao Paulo

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2014 22:00

UlanBatori wrote:SIA may be SilkAir?

It is a subsidiary of Singapore Airlines and Flight Route numberings starts with SQ in most cases But its ATC call sign is SLK.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Mar 2014 22:01

What are the other flights on that arc?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 22:03

VikramS wrote:shiv:

When shadowing a plane, the MH had to be radio silent; i.e. its transponder were not broadcasting anything. That is feasible; they do not have to spoof the other plane.

Regarding discrimination between the two planes. The question is:

Was anyone looking?

ATC was expecting a 777 and they got their 777.

Military radars were expecting a 777 and they got that and something more. Now the military has to investigate that something more instead of a regular scan. Did the military try to distinguish and see whether it was a single plane or a double plane?

If I were a radar operator tracking a routine flight, I would not be worried. That is human nature.

So the spare spoofed transponder is a bogey.

As regards the military - they have to be on the alert for two blips when there should be one because that is the simplest way of getting an extra aircraft into your airspace. Formation flying has to be very very close - in the way IAF spoofed USAF radars by hiding small MiG 21s behind big Su 30s. If there are three enemy intruders they have to be identified as three.

In this case the tailing 777 is expected to maintain close formation in the dead of night for several hours, passing sevreal countries and radar systems all of whom would have seen two blips and turned around an gone to sleep. As a work of fiction such a story would be a B-grade plot. Military radar operatirs are trained to keep an eye open for such stuff and the idea that a series of them all made the same mistake is not likely.

Besides, if you look back this is story number 4.
First story: plane downed in sea off Vietnam
Second story: Plane downed in Andaman sea
Third story: Plane flew low to avoid radar
Fourth story: Plane did not fly low. It simply tailed another aircraft all night and fooled everyone.

i have another story.

The plane has crashed. Everyone is dead.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 Mar 2014 22:03

I checked Singapore airlines website for schedules, the flight number is SQ68. Its the call sign that is SIA68

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 17 Mar 2014 22:06

Western news media uses the name "Andaman Island" and "Andaman Sea" without mentioning any connection to India. Secondly Indians searchers are not saying much. It seems GOI understands that it is some kind of game, but they have no idea about the players and to what end it is played.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 22:06

very few, most flights come over india and then iran - turkey - romania - germany +/- depending on where its going
on that arc (remember to think in great circles and not straight lines) there are few places where you can be controlled/monitored and where you can put down in an emergency

and frankly where anyone actually wants to go

shivji, you are right onlee... air sickness is bad onlee, but too low and sea sickness is there

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Mar 2014 22:06

Flight SIA68 took off from Changi airport at 12:58 am on 8th March and landed in Barcelona and flew over India, Pakistan etc

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SIA6 ... /WSSS/LEBL

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2014 22:09

rsingh wrote:Western news media uses the name "Andaman Island" and "Andaman Sea" without mentioning any connection to India. Secondly Indians searchers are not saying much. It seems GOI understands that it is some kind of game, but they have no idea about the players and to what end it is played.

And they call that Southern Indina Ocean!!!

GOI is letting retired officers make statements.

Not one peep out of those still on duty.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 17 Mar 2014 22:10

UlanBatori wrote:Dead giveaway that this was written by someone who has never been even on a single-engine plane with an instructor. Has read the Bubba's Illustrated Pilot Instruction Book for Pilots Under 7.
3. Look up coordinates for the nearest airport

He has supplied his real name so should be easy enough to check up.
Almost every other pilot who has commented has also noted the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate thing.
Including a few instructors. It is almost like a drill/internal jargon thing.

WRT #3 the entire point of the post was that experienced pilots have an understanding of the nearest landing strip at any given time and the knowledge to get there immediately, by presumably dead reckoning.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Mar 2014 22:11

shiv wrote:Not that I would like to be in that situation but if I was in a flight that was obviously going wrong I would switch on my cellphone and ask everyone to do that and keep trying to call. The cabin staff too would know that something was the matter. Maybe people would try and bash in the pilot's door - because after one stage you know you are going to die anyway and you don't care.

RIP, yes, but the significance of the possibility that the plane ascended to its rated ceiling should be noted. It might be the fastest way of incapacitating the staff and passengers.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Mar 2014 22:12

chaanakya wrote:Its SQ for Singapore Airlines

saip wrote:http://www.airlinecodes.info/iata-code-sq

chaanakya wrote: SQ is flight route code for Singapore Airlines. SIAxxx is call sign assigned by ATC. Check flightradar24.com
http://www.flightradar24.com/2014-03-07 ... .6,99.48/7

Click on any flight with SIA call sign. SQ368/SIA368 is up there and you can see it crossing over pakistan around midnight.

saip wrote: SIA68 is the singapore airlines flight from Singapore to Barcelona to Sao Paulo

That is correct but I am talking about SIA 368 which is from Singapore to Milan and flight path approximated to rendezvous point for MH370 after it maneuvered in zig zag pattern. Pakistan and Taliban are in deep into this. The captain must be rehearsing that flight for very long time. He knows radar positions and its shadow areas and most detailed information. Supports Democracy is dead and anwar ibrahim, clearly anti-establishment guy. CoPilot could be dead after making valiant fight with flight engineer who could have assisted Captain.

my two bit CT. since it is free for all in absence of any concrete info from malay.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 17 Mar 2014 22:12

Pakistan, India, Taliban say know nothing about missing Malaysia jet's disappearance

Aviation officials in Pakistan, India and Central Asia as well as Taliban militants said they knew nothing about the whereabouts of a missing Malaysian jetliner on Monday after the search for Flight MH370 extended into their territory. Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 vanished on March 8 about an hour into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 people aboard and investigators are now increasingly convinced it was diverted thousands of miles off course.

Malaysia said it had sent diplomatic notes to all countries along an arc of northern and southern search corridors including India and Pakistan, requesting radar and satellite information as well as land, sea and air search operation.

Indian defence officials rejected the possibility of a plane flying for hours above the country undetected.

"The idea that the plane flew through Indian airspace for several hours without anyone noticing is bizarre," a defence ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"These are wild reports, without any basis," he said, adding a pilot would have to know the precise location of all Indian radars and surveillance systems to be able to get around them.

Explaining why this was unlikely, he said surveillance was so tight on India's border facing its nuclear arch-rival Pakistan that the air force scrambled a pair of Sukhoi fighters last month after an unidentified object showed up on the radar.

It turned out to be a weather balloon drifting towards the Pakistan border.

Mystery
Pakistani officials said they had detected nothing suspicious in the skies after the plane vanished.

"We have checked the radar recording for the period but found no clue about the ill-fated flight," the civil aviation authority said in a statement.

Central Asian countries Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, at the northern end of the search arc, said no unidentified planes had entered their air space on March 8.

"Even if all on-board equipment is switched off, it is impossible to fly through in a silent mode," the Kazakh civil aviation committee said in a statement sent to Reuters. "There are also military bodies monitoring the country's air space."

As the search widened, some observers suggested the plane might have flown to remote mountainous areas abutting Pakistan's border with Afghanistan where Taliban militants are holed up.

Zabihullah Mujahid, a spokesman for the Taliban in Afghanistan, who are seeking to oust foreign troops and set up an Islamic state, said the missing plane had nothing to do with them.

"It happened outside Afghanistan and you can see that even countries with very advanced equipment and facilities cannot figure out where it went," he said. "So we also do not have any information as it is an external issue."

A commander with the Pakistani Taliban, a separate entity fighting the Pakistani government, said the fragmented group could only dream about such an operation.

"We wish we had an opportunity to hijack such a plane" he told Reuters by telephone from the lawless North Waziristan region.

In Delhi, the defence official said that theoretically the aircraft could have flown a path hugging close to the Himalayas where radar is less effective because of the mountains. But again for that sort of "terrain masking", you'd need intelligence and the skills of a military pilot, he said.

In Port Blair, capital of the remote, forested Andaman and Nicobar Islands, the Indian Navy Ship Kesari returned to its base after being recalled following a two-day search scanning the Andaman Sea.

A senior defence source there said that if the plane had crashed in the area light debris could have drifted a vast distance.

"I would estimate that debris would be travelling at least 15 nautical miles an hour, so you can imagine how far it would be after more than a week," he said.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... 96393.aspx

Pakis getting equated with Talebs.
India inturn getting equated with Pakis.

All this drama in a Reuters report faithfully reproduced in HT "debating the merits" of a Wild goose flight upto Shangri La .

Truly pathetic attempts at misdirection while managing MSM narratives by the invisible hand.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 22:13

as a rookie pilot, the training is to continuously keep an eye on any field that you might be able to put down in should it be necessary

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 22:16

I think military radar operators at least in India have a very clear mandate. There are certain air corridors for civilian flights. Anyone outside that will be intercepted. Everyone within the corridor is counted an identified. The number of identifications has to be equal to the number of flying objects seen on radar. You do not look at two objects flying very close and at the same speed and count that as one. Any object that does not have identification gets intercepted.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 22:23

A_Gupta wrote:
RIP, yes, but the significance of the possibility that the plane ascended to its rated ceiling should be noted. It might be the fastest way of incapacitating the staff and passengers.

How? At 35,000 feet pressurization is maintained at 10,000 feet levels. What would go wrong at 44,000 feet? The pressure drop is not that big and if the engines and wings have enough air to bite into the compressors can supply air to the cabin at the right pressure and temperature.

A 777 has a service ceiling of about 43,000 feet - but the question is whether a fully loaded 777 could go that high at all?

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 17 Mar 2014 22:23

For the operation to bomb the Iraqi reactor Israelis used the civilian corridor and followed a scheduled flight .....
The result is well known

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 22:26

Lilo wrote:

Pakistan, India, Taliban say know nothing about missing Malaysia jet's disappearance

Pakis getting equated with Talebs.
India inturn getting equated with Pakis.

All this drama in a Reuters report faithfully reproduced in HT "debating the merits" of a Wild goose flight upto Shangri La .

Truly pathetic attempts at misdirection while managing MSM narratives by the invisible hand.

No. In fact this is great news. It means that people now recognize 3 countries where there were two. Congratulations to Pakistan on the birth of its latest baby.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Mar 2014 22:28

Nijalingappa wrote:For the operation to bomb the Iraqi reactor Israelis used the civilian corridor and followed a scheduled flight .....
The result is well known

They failed. Iraqi nukes remained a threat until the USA dealt with them in the second Gulf war.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 17 Mar 2014 22:28

If one says the squawk code cannot be spoofed in an area with modern SSR that tracks Mode S signals, then the pilot would have to stick to areas where the technology is absent or older. This negates the possibility that the a/c entered Indian airspace.

That leaves Burmese airspace along the northern path and everything along the southern path between Aceh and the Cocos & Keeling Islands or Christmas Islands.

I gather there is a detention facility already available on the Christmas Islands - managed by a private corporation.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Mar 2014 22:30

i find it hard to believe that chinese/northern himachal airspace is not surveilled
i am sure that the red arc goes over/near lhasa at the very least (not to mention yunan and xinjiang military districts)