Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 00:46

If the plane was at nose-level attitude, then it would not climb unless lift > weight. Planes don't climb by pointing upwards: they climb by having more thrust than is needed for straight and level flight at that altitude, and moving a bit faster than the speed needed for lift=drag. The additional lift makes it rise. The "nose-pointed up" is just enough to make sure that angle of attack is small but not negative. In most planes, during climb, one can still walk to the pakistan without seeming like climbing a mountain, hain?

At some point climb rate becomes zero, and it will keep flying there, climbing slowly as fuel weight comes down, until fuel runs out. As fuel weight comes down, and thrust is constant, and nose attitude held constant, the plane will accelerate, not decelerate, forward.

Even if the climb ended in stall (not sure why it should) then it would have held level attitude only if the autopilot was on and knew how to recover from a stall.

No reason to stall: there is such a thing as static stability after all.

If the autopilot and all control surfaces were working, then electric power was not lost. Also, engine data would have shown high power setting, not cruise setting.

Nothing here except the "theory" based in typical western predjudice (and absence of aircraft fundas) that Asian senior pilots are stupid and incompetent. Pilots not turning back after total comm loss, and BOTH not recognizing hypoxia, is not credible. And 20 minutes of oxygen mask time with the plane not descending and no flt attendant contacting pilots?

Add this to the Kazakhstan-Perth CTs. CNN-quality.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 18 Mar 2014 00:59

UlanBatori wrote:
Add this to the Kazakhstan-Perth CTs. CNN-quality.

Oh I thought you were retired hurt ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Mar 2014 01:01

UlanBatori wrote:Of course it is, but my point is that it does not take many minutes before one is free to hit the MayDay transponder and call ground control and talk to them. It takes seconds, and they didn't do that, so these people are BSing.

Yes. I too have found that odd and lean slightly towards a more sinister explanation. Yet few of the pilots themselves seem surprised by this. It should be remembered that during the entire AF447 saga with many minutes of instrument problems and panicking pilots not once was ATC contacted. No mayday nothing. All the way down to the ocean. Folks were left to try and piece together events from ACARS, CVR & FDR data.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 18 Mar 2014 01:10

shiv wrote:5. Flight 370 pilot stayed in close formation with that aircraft in the dead of night. So soooo close that it looked like one radar blip. And no one noticed. A hackjacker on flight 370 turned off proximity warning on the SIA jet. (Hey maybe he jammed all radars as well?)

TCAS/PCAS relies on transponder information from other craft. If the transponder is switched off the TCAS wouldn't show the aircraft.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 01:10

during the entire AF447 saga with many minutes of instrument problems and panicking pilots not once was ATC contacted. No mayday nothing. All the way down to the ocean. Folks were left to try and piece together events from ACARS, CVR & FDR data.

I had no idea that they could have contacted ATC. That's very ominous, isn't it? I never did believe the pakistan that they put out as the reason for that crash. I think the pilots were killed in the first instant. Ice in the Pitot tube my ***!
Maybe here too...

Exactly what happens if there is a catastrophic encounter with a small object(s) that comes through the front windshield? Both pilots "taken out" in a flash, much of the controls trashed? The door is hermetically sealed behind them courtesy of US DHS to withstand hajaar-hajaar Pascals of dynamic pressure. (let's see: 29,500 ft, Mach 0.7? I think a steel door can stand that..) But no one can open the door into the cockpit (do cockpit doors open into or out?) Plane keeps flying fast because engines are unaffected etc. I assume they looked straight ahead along flight path for debris? It may have reached Ulan Bator, come to think of it...

Maybe they hit a drone? Or balloon? Then the "military radar" and all other cra* HAS to be cover-up. Absence of wreckage says wreckage is in a place where it cannot be found/ has long since been found.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 18 Mar 2014 01:12

As far as I remember this is the first time some Uighur has given a statement from Pakistan. And that too the "rebel chief". Another lucky coincidence ? Me thinks, he issued the statement AFTER the deed had been done. And he may also have claimed how the revenge was taken, which was censored out by press corps.

Basically terrorists will do the act for publicity, and this here is China/USA denying them that satisfaction.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Mar 2014 01:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Of course it is, but my point is that it does not take many minutes before one is free to hit the MayDay transponder and call ground control and talk to them. It takes seconds, and they didn't do that, so these people are BSing.
Yes. I too have found that odd and lean slightly towards a more sinister explanation. Yet few of the pilots themselves seem surprised by this. It should be remembered that during the entire AF447 saga with many minutes of instrument problems and panicking pilots not once was ATC contacted. No mayday nothing. All the way down to the ocean. Folks were left to try and piece together events from ACARS, CVR & FDR data.

The sequence in an emergency is aviate, navigate and communicate.

Most serious emergencies generally go south very fast in the first stage itself, leaving very little room for the navigate and communicate stage.

The hindi movie type "mayday, mayday, mayday" rarely happens in a real emergency, like it played out in the AF447 saga where three people in the cockpit did not get beyond the aviate stage.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 01:18

But then the wreckage did not go further than that either... here the claim is that they had hours and hours of "Navigate" but no time to either call home or come down to cellphone range so the passengers could do so. Back to the circle of confusion we go...
You can't have a fall down from 29500 feet without breaking into a lot of pieces, and a LOT of people have spent a lot of time looking.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Mar 2014 01:21

UlanBatori wrote:
At some point climb rate becomes zero, and it will keep flying there, climbing slowly as fuel weight comes down, until fuel runs out. As fuel weight comes down, and thrust is constant, and nose attitude held constant, the plane will accelerate, not decelerate, forward.

After it goes past its planned cruise altitude and continues climbing, at one point it wont gently float up and reach a max altitude but zoom climb no? Or am I wrong? That is what happened to that air france plane. Zoom climb then stall and straight into the ocean. I thought that is what this person meant. In the AF instance, the pilot was holding the stick back the whole time and Airbus' brilliant flight controls averaged the stick positions of the two pilots and ended up pakistaning the more experience pilot who realised at the very end what the naya abdul copilot had been doing all the while. In this case, with no such copilot doing idiotic things, who knows what the attitude of the plane would be after it stalled and fell out of the sky with the engines still at climb power?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 02:04

Zoom climb then stall and straight into the ocean. I thought that is what this person meant. In the AF instance, the pilot was holding the stick back the whole time and Airbus' brilliant flight controls averaged the stick positions of the two pilots and ended up pakistaning the more experience pilot who realised at the very end what the naya abdul copilot had been doing all the while.

L'Air Francaise explanation was that Le Peep de Peetoe got pakistaned by ice forming in thunderstorm. So Le Reading de Vitesse (speed reading) started showing Null (as in 0) so L'Auto-Pilotte pulled up stick to increase angle of attack in order to increase ze Leeft - and that's why it stalled. Le Funda d'Airo-dynamique: go past stall angle, you stall.
Must have had a spectacular power-on stall, which is no fun even in a Cessna 152 (my fingers tremble as I type, in memory of that).
Of course that makes no sense: even Cessna152s have Pitot-probe heaters. And since the aircraft was actually traveling pretty fast, I don't see why his altitude gauge didn't alert him that something was seriously screwy with the speed reading. I mean, there IS a thing called the Climb Rate... And his GPS would have showed him that he was zipping along.

Perhaps the brilliant Software d'Airboos was set up so that
Eeph vitesse d'Peetoe < 200 m/s
then Deployer Les Flappes 10 deg.
Eeph vitesse d'Peetoe < 100 m/s
then Deployer Les Flappes 20 deg.
Eeph vitesse d'Peetoe < 100 m/s
then Deployer Les Flappes 60 deg.
Endeeph
Endeeph
Endeeph

And the wings broke off because they deployed full flaps at Mach 0.8.
*************************************************************

Zoom climb then stall and straight into the ocean. I thought that is what this person meant.

No, I read him to say that it kept doing u-down-up-down all the way past the Malaysian AF radar point and eventually ran out of fuel 1 hour early because it was operating at full thrust all the time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2014 02:24

Are you now postulating MH-370 met a UFO/drone in South China Sea and went West instead of East?
Isn't SCS crowded with UFOs due to the PRC created tension in the region.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 02:31

Can't explain lack of wreckage. But that "pilot"'s mention of 8000-foot ridges (is that true) on Malay peninsula suggests that there are plenty of forested ravines where the wreckage can hide for quite some time. Wonder about lack of smoke, but it may have hit a deep lake in the hills.

Just saying that I don't know what backup they have on any aircraft if pilots get hit through the front windows. Very scary thought, with all the UAVs out there. 29500 feet is not too high for those. Govt. reticence is understandable on this point... but someone should be screaming.

Haven't you read about the pilot coming into SFO who called out:

Just saw a guy in an armchair off my left window..

If he had hit that armchair through the windshield, the flight might have crashed.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Mar 2014 02:41

UlanBatori wrote:But then the wreckage did not go further than that either... here the claim is that they had hours and hours of "Navigate" but no time to either call home or come down to cellphone range so the passengers could do so.

If you notice he says that in all options everyone was dead in a matter of minutes. Either overcome by smoke fumes or rapid decompression or some combination. The Pilot only had time to execute the quick hard turn/dive towards land and maybe the desperate climb to 45,000 feet to extinguish the fire. After that all was quiet as the plane slide quietly towards its eventual watery grave 7 hours later. In any accident scenario everyone was done for very swiftly. Certainly much before they crossed the Malaysian mainland where cellphones would likely have worked. At that moment the cellphones may indeed have rung only no one was alive to pick up. Kinda eerie....

Any land crash would result in ELT location fairly quickly. Also what about the 7 hours. No, lack of ELT says bottom of ocean somewhere.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2014 02:44

Only thing is the co-pilot's "all right, good night' came after the shutdown of the two transmission equipment.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 18 Mar 2014 02:47

The theory nachiket posted from reddit sounds plausible except, could a plane fly by itself for 7 hours after a major electrical failure? Wouldn't it fly in 'a straight line' if it did?

Another mysterious thing is that Malaysia/Inmarsat haven't released the possible locations indicated by the intermediate pings, only the last one.

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 18 Mar 2014 02:49

ramana wrote:Only thing is the co-pilot's "all right, good night' came after the shutdown of the two transmission equipment.

Malaysian authorities have retracted their statement about that. They say the shutdown happened sometime in a 1/2 hour period, which means it could be before or after the last verbal communications.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2014 02:55

^^

This is 10 minutes ago

Co-Pilot's Last Words

...During a press conference on Monday night, Malaysia Airlines chief Ahmad Jauhari Yahya was asked who spoke the words.

"Initial investigations indicate it was the co-pilot who basically spoke the last time it was recorded on tape," he said.

Officials say the last signal from the ACARS system - a maintenance computer that sends back data on the plane's status - was received 12 minutes before the seemingly nonchalant final words.

The plane's transponder - which relays radar information on the plane's location - was switched off just two minutes after the voice message.

...

Also how many hours of data does the flight recorder hold? I dont want to be told they found the plane but it had only last half-hour records!!!

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 18 Mar 2014 03:00

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/17/world/asi ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Timeline clarification

[Malaysia Airlines CEO ] Ahmad Jauhari said Monday that it wasn't clear whether the final words from the cockpit came before or after the plane's data-reporting system was shut down. Earlier, Malaysian authorities had said the message "All right, good night" came after the system had been disabled.

The voice message came at 1:19 a.m. Saturday, March 8, Ahmad Jauhari said. The data system sent its last transmission at 1:07 a.m. and was shut down sometime between then and 1:37 a.m. that day, Ahmad Jauhari said.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Mar 2014 03:03

rohitvats wrote:To me, there seems to be some method to madness of the aircraft being at way-points which are the fringe of respective Flight Information Region (FIR).

Hijackers needed to prove that they have control of the plane and have the expertise to fly it as they wish. MAS gave them a bunch of way points and hijackers flew that predetermined path which MAS verified. First MAS might have told them to go ahead and proceed and to prove a point they might have told the Malaysian military to look at some coordinates at 2:11 AM and they were there. So now ground wanted to verify whether they can really navigate the plane using autopilot and hence a list of way points were given and the pilot(s) executed the maneuvres correctly. After that there is no data has been made public. nada from Malaysia, China, US, India, Vietnam, RR, Inmarsat. But it is being released in bits and pieces as the data became stale.

Also, we have to believe the SAR was in SCS (east of Malay) and now shifted to SIO Andmana Sea etc. and a few clips were released to CNN. But who knows really how many ships/Aircraft are involved and where they are searching? All seem to be Miltary vessels/craft and every Military is very disciplined to keep secrets. Also need to know principle in force.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Mar 2014 03:05

ramana wrote:nachiket, The scenario stated by that person can easily be verified by Boeing using flight simulation. Essentially it means the plane flight control software has some unintended paths.
I doubt that.

That pilot (if he really is one) seems to suggest that the AP had some wings-level mode, which it might. With the auto-throttle and NAV modes off, the plane climbed to 45k ft, entered a stall and descended rapidly with a nose-down attitude with the AP keeping the wings level without which the aircraft may bank go into an unrecoverable spin. This caused an inadvertent stall-recovery of sorts causing it to level off and with the engines already at climb-thrust made it go up again. I agree, it is far fetched, but IMHO less than the more "hollywoody" theories about super-intelligent (and super-organized) hijackers stealing the aircraft for future nefarious use and multi-govt. conspiracies to create a pretext for snooping around the Andamans etc.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Mar 2014 03:11

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
RIP, yes, but the significance of the possibility that the plane ascended to its rated ceiling should be noted. It might be the fastest way of incapacitating the staff and passengers.
A 777 has a service ceiling of about 43,000 feet - but the question is whether a fully loaded 777 could go that high at all?

I thought that "climb to 45K and drop down to 20K in a minute" has been discarded in this thread as not credible due to aerodynamics. Did I misread?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Mar 2014 03:13

matrimc wrote: I thought that "climb to 45K and drop down to 20K in a minute" has been discarded in this thread as not credible due to aerodynamics. Did I misread?

Well, it can't do that "in a minute" and stay in one piece, that's for certain. Where did the time of just "one minute" for the cheange in altitude come from anyway?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 18 Mar 2014 03:14

Malaysia Police Search Pilots' Homes
By
Chun Han Wong
Updated March 17, 2014 1:36 a.m. ET
[..]Intelligence agencies haven't connected any of the pilots on the flight to known terrorist groups, but some senior U.S. officials believe the plane may have been taken as part of a "dry run" for a future terrorist attack, testing the ability to take a plane and hide it from radar and satellites.

"We can't discount it," said a senior official. "There is enough evidence out there that this plane was flying for more hours than originally reported."[..]

Lawmaker: Missing airliner may have landed in southeast Asia, for use as ‘weapon’
foxnews.com | Mar 17th 2014

The theory that the missing Malaysia Airlines jet was hijacked and diverted -- possibly to Indonesia -- to be used as a "weapon" in a future attack gained traction Monday from the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee.

Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, told Fox News that the two most plausible scenarios at this stage are that Flight 370 ran out of fuel and crashed into the Indian Ocean, or that the plane has already landed "somewhere in southeast Asia" as part of a terror plot.

"It could have landed somewhere, filled with explosives and then sent somewhere else to cause some great damage, and I think we have to look at all possibilities right now," McCaul told Fox News.

The theory that the missing plane is being housed in a secret location is one of dozens that have emerged since the Boeing 777 disappeared. But with the international investigation now focusing on sabotage and foul play, the possibility of a terror link remains on the table.

"We do have to use ... imagination. This is one of the most mysterious flights probably since Amelia Earhart's disappearance," McCaul said, while acknowledging "no one really knows the truth behind the motivation."

McCaul also confirmed that FBI agents were on the ground on Sunday, and that the computer hard drives of the pilot and co-pilot are currently being reviewed. McCaul said that should lead to new information.

Meanwhile, McCaul and other officials are calling on Malaysian authorities to give FBI investigators greater access to help with the probe.

New York Republican Rep. Peter King complained on Sunday that the Malaysian government was "not cooperating."

[..]

Malaysian police confiscated a flight simulator from the pilot's home on Saturday and also visited the home of the co-pilot in what Malaysian police chief Khalid Abu Bakar initially said was the first police visits to those homes. But the government -- which has come under criticism abroad for missteps and foot-dragging in their release of information -- issued a statement Monday contradicting that account by saying police first visited the pilots' homes as early as March 9, the day after the flight.

Investigators haven't ruled out hijacking, sabotage, pilot suicide or mass murder, and they are checking the backgrounds of all 227 passengers and 12 crew members, as well as the ground crew, to see if links to terrorists, personal problems or psychological issues could be factors.

[..]

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/catego ... ou-hiding/

‘Malaysia, what else are you hiding?’
by S Retnanathan, freemalaysiatoday.com
March 17th 2014

The Chinese premier told Najib to provide more details about the missing flight.

BEIJING: Relatives of Chinese passengers aboard a missing Malaysia Airlines plane voiced fury Monday, accusing the Malaysian government of “talking nonsense” as Premier Li Keqiang backed their demand for more information.

Li in a phone call asked his Malaysian counterpart Najib Tun Razak to provide more details about the missing flight “in a timely, accurate and comprehensive manner”, state news agency Xinhua reported.

Anguished relatives echoed his call.

“Only the Malaysia government knows the truth. They’ve been talking nonsense since the beginning,” said Wen Wancheng, following a meeting with airline officials in Beijing as the search entered its 10th day.

“You (Malaysia) hid the whereabouts from the beginning and after seven to eight days you discovered it? That was the best time to launch a rescue,” added the 63-year-old from the eastern province of Shandong, whose son was aboard the missing jet.

[..]

In an editorial, the China Daily newspaper questioned why the announcement came more than a week after the flight vanished and wondered whether Malaysia was sharing all of the information it had gathered.

“The contradictory and piecemeal information Malaysia Airlines and its government have provided has made search efforts difficult and the entire incident even more mysterious,” the newspaper wrote.

“What else is known that has not been shared with the world?”

[..]

China’s foreign ministry took a more measured tone, with spokesman Hong Lei telling Monday’s regular briefing that the search “is faced with even more difficulties” in light of the new information.

“We hope the Malaysian side will better coordinate all the search efforts and provide comprehensive and accurate information to all sides, expand the search and step up search efforts,” Hong said.

He added that Beijing “will not reduce our search forces, but we will redirect the forces” as the situation changes.

A former intelligence officer with the CIA says the disappearance of Malaysian flight MH370 has been more skilfully executed than the 9/ 11 attack.

There's speculation that the plane might have landed somewhere.

Mike Scheuer told Newstalk ZB's Rachel Smalley it appears to be even more precise than 9/11.

"It's not evident that it was a suicide mission. Perhaps they have other uses for the plane if it's a terrorism attack.

"Perhaps they're going to try bargain with the West for the release of some al-Qaeda people in return for releasing the passengers who were on the plane."

He says if it was an act of terrorism, there could be a rogue plane out there.

"Once their plane is down somewhere you can repaint it, you can put a different number on the fuselage, and if you replace some of the equipment it won't give off the identifying signal that it would give off normally.

"And then you have kind of a wild card aircraft out there."
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/ne ... the-ground

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 18 Mar 2014 03:18

Did Malaysian govt ask for data from or has monitored US's base in Guam?

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 18 Mar 2014 03:24

In the scenario that nachiket posted, wouldn't the passengers have had enough time to make phone-calls?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Mar 2014 03:26

shiv wrote:There is no manual transmission. "YOU" do not ransmit anything. The transponder responds with what you have punched in plus its own MAC address or other unique hardware id that is hardwired into every transponder. You cannot chane the latter even if you change the id of your flight from MA 370 to PIA666

The problem with fool-proof systems is that there will always be situations when the system has to be overridden. False positives can cause enormous damage to life and property. One cannot implement a system that is rigid.

2001:A Space Odyssy- ACClark wrote: Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave Bowman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Dave Bowman: Alright, HAL. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave? You're going to find that rather difficult.
Dave Bowman: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Mar 2014 03:34

LokeshC wrote:Edit: Pilot suicide, insanity could also be another reason. But they seem to be healthy men. The wife and kids of the pilot moving out of the house means nothing. They did not want to deal with the media and paparazzo.

IIRC they moved out one day before the flight took off, or am I remembering wrong. please correct.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2014 03:41

nachiket wrote:Some guy on Reddit has a theory which explains just about everything including the climb to 45k followed by the descent and second climb.

http://www.aeroinside.com/item/3665/air ... ers-failed

Air India B788 near Kuala Lumpur on Feb 5th 2014, all flight management computers failed

An Air India Boeing 787-800, registration VT-ANJ performing flight AI-301 from Melbourne,VI (Australia) to Delhi (India) with 215 people on board, was enroute at FL380 about 20nm north of Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) when all three flight management computer system failed simultaneously. The crew diverted to Kuala Lumpur for a safe landing on runway 32L about 65 minutes later.

The airline reported a software malfunction caused the simultaneous malfunction of the FMCs. The passengers were taken to hotels. A replacement aircraft is expected to depart Kuala Lumpur on Feb 6th and is estimated to reach Delhi with a delay of 24 hours.

This is the level of safety these planes have, I doubt this CT.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2014 03:44

matrimc wrote: I thought that "climb to 45K and drop down to 20K in a minute" has been discarded in this thread as not credible due to aerodynamics. Did I misread?

Climb to 45K and drop down to 20K in a minute is traceable to a wrong New York Times article "leaking" information from an "informed American source" who was talking about data that doesn't exist (engine data from ACARS).

However, climb to 45K and descended at some unknown rate is still vaguely possible - this is again, another American source who claims to have seen radar data provided by Malaysia.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2014 03:45

ramana wrote:^^
Also how many hours of data does the flight recorder hold? I dont want to be told they found the plane but it had only last half-hour records!!!

Last two hours of voice.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 03:53

Ah! So! My supeliars in Beijing have spoken:

“Only the Malaysia government knows the truth. They’ve been talking nonsense since the beginning,”

Very strong statement. Now ramana: here is the new logic from UB CTs:
1. We tried fitting CTs to ALL known facts. And they have got beyond the realm of credibility or possibility.
2. So now let us try relaxing ONE constraint and see what happens:

What is the prime reason why attention has been diverted from the SCS? Answer: The Malaysian Radar report of an UNIDENTIFIED object flying away, westwards, 1 hr 10 mins after the plane disappeared.
Q.1: Why does it take 1 hr 10 mins to fly that distance?
Q.2: If there was no transponder, and they did not make any positive ID for over 24 hours, how did they then "confirm" that what they saw was indeed MH370? Looked real hard at the radar screen? Either the info was there at the start, or it was not.

So I am going to discard that constraint: "seen over Malacca Strait at 2:40AM". What happens to the CTs now?
Aha! Engine data at Rolls Royce. But what did Rolls Royce say? "Last xmission at 1:07, all is well".
*******************
Who sustained the CTs after that?
1. WSJ, citing "sources close to the investigation" citing unnamed Boeing ppl having a transmission 4.5hrs after disappearance".
2. Unnamed US sources citing unnamed sources believed to be US satellite intel, citing "pings up to 7 hours after disappearance".
3. Plus, US sources saying: "went into the water", without telling us where. We have now waiting about a week since then for the USN to report reaching the "right spot" and either finding wreckage, or REPORTING finding nothing.
4. No mention of contrail sightings over S.I.O. despite daylight after that "4.5hr ping".
********************
5. Who brought out that "Kazakhstan to S.IO" arc? INMARSAT, but really from US/UK sources. No one has actually SAID that it was an INMARSAT signal capture, and indeed that seems totally improbable given that the ACARS was switched off.
6. What was the effect of these things? Searches ended in SCS and Malacca Strait, wild goose chase everywhere else.
7. Rapidly growing conclusion: "V may nevah find da wreckage, tsk tsk". Pictures of planes that "also disappeared" - 70 years ago.
*************************

U c where I am going? If it was a UAV collision, and the UAV was unmentionable, what do u think (deleted) govt/military would have done? Maybe they HAVE found the wreckage, and are busily disposing of it? And they know whose craft hit it, and who requested its presence, so they can't quite point a finger.

Some saal pehle, I read this book where the first Mach 3 SST was being flown on its Houri mission, from Tokyo or somewhere to LA/SFO. A supersonic mijjile was also being tested. Well.... mijjile met plane at 60,000 feet. Went straight through one window and out the other without exploding or destroying the fuselage. Decompression, a couple of rows of passengers decapitated and maybe a havai houri or two sucked out the windows. Plane dived, but all aboard lost consciousness because it takes a loooong time to come down from 60,000 feet when u are going Mach 3 (can't be at low altitudes going that fast..) By the time they got down, all had suffered irreversible brain damage. Except one guy who was in a pakistan at the time, and the pakistan had enough smell-isolation sealing to keep the pressure from going down too fast. So he survived, unhurt.

The rest of the book was about the pressures to cover up - they tried their best to make the plane crash out over the Pacific, but the ultra-smart automatic pilot brought it to a perfect landing... with senators, film stars, generals, NASA heads, aircraft company execs all reduced to vegetables.

Just thinking of the pressures on the different entities involved. Think back to original comment from Air Force General Abdul XXX: "There are some things I can tell you, and some things I cannot".
I really don't want to follow this CT, for obvious reasons.... BTW, who makes UAVs and UCAVs I wonder.. It had to be something small enough that it didn't cause an explosive collision. Wreckage had to be contained in a tight enough area to allow a swift cordon-off and coverup.

There may never be any cockpit voice recorder or Black Box "found", because someone has already made **** sure of it? Now the angry reactions of the IN make sense. Chinese are being pretty restrained, but that statement at the top is an indication of the frustration. Scary.

Maybe all defense ppl understand that it was an accident that could happen to them too.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 18 Mar 2014 04:13

An accident is just that, an accident. Collision of a UAV with the airliner would also be an accident; so why cover it up ? There has to be a vital reason for a cover-up of this scale. What could it be ? And then the CTs will start again.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2014 04:31

No more CTs for me. Only gathering of any fresh information that may be forthcoming.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2014 04:33

From CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/17/world/asi ... nes-plane/

On Monday, the Malaysian newspaper New Straits Times reported that the plane may have flown low to the ground -- 5,000 feet or less -- and used mountainous terrain as cover to evade radar detection. The newspaper cited unnamed sources for its reporting, which CNN could not immediately confirm.

However, Malaysian officials said Monday that they were not aware of the report.

"It does not come from us," said Malaysia Airlines CEO Ahmad Jauhari Yahya.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 04:45

Any accident involving a government program, esp. one involving phoren collaborashun, is political dynamite. In a nation where they tossed the leader of the opposition in jail and sodomized him, and are staggering towards becoming an Islamic theocracy (read about persecution of yindoos there), a coverup would be automatic reflex. Maybe in this case phoren collaborashun is via defense program.

Remember USS Vincennes and IranAir. Main reason why that came out is that the first reaction was a press conference by the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff claiming grand victory in shooting down an "Eyeranian F-14". Sort-of put them in a box. Still, there was very little reporting on wreckage recovery or about victims - all swept under as "collateral damage" and anyway they were mostly Eyeranians at a time when US was 400% Pro-Saddam.

How did KAL007 come out? Maybe the pilot was able to transmit MayDay and say that there were Soviet fighters around him. If not, it may have been the other ppl observing the proceedings, incl the C-130 or something that was supposedly in the "shadow" of KAL007. Was it the Soviets who announced the downing? I don't remember. I heard that there were some serious repercussions on the Soviet Air Defense ppl, or maybe that was in a Tom Clancy novel.

Point is, who knows the truth in this case? Maybe the guy at ATC knows that there may have been another tiny blip there somewhere - or that something seemed to be losing altitude pretty fast. He would have been informed that his memory/eyesight are sort of faulty - if he wants to have either eyes or a mind any more. The mil radar guys may have seen some bizjet - daily flights of drug smugglers skirting Malaysian border, and their data taken over.

So why did any collision occur right after the range of Malaysian ATC and before Vietnam ATC range? Answer: Where else do you expect to find a secret UAV? It would stay out of ATC range, and may have been too small to show up at the edge of either ATC radar.

The fisherman who may have seen something falling may be in some deep cave, scared out of his wits.

The wreckage may have fallen on someone's plantation, if not govt. land. Cordoned off by military for "secret exercise". Earthmoving teams brought in, slapped with a super Top Secret classification and informed that their families are well taken care of - or will be "taken care of". 250 tons of debris buried. A forest planted over it. Signs posted all around: "Danger: Toxic Waste. Trespassers may be shot without warning".

Airlines Chairman told to smell the roses while he can, and see what is in his and his airline's best interest. You know, those videos of him swilling haraam whisky with ankle-showing houris - remember the sodomy charges slapped against the Opposition Leader?
Anything I left out?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 18 Mar 2014 05:06

Interesting(with the two Iranians with stolen passports) :

CIA suspends chief of Iran operations over workplace issues
by Ken Dilanian, latimes.com
March 16th 2014

WASHINGTON — The CIA's chief of Iran operations was placed on paid administrative leave and sent home from agency headquarters after an internal investigation found he had created an abusive and hostile work environment that put a crucial division in disarray, according to current and former officials.

Officers and analysts in the Iran operations division, which coordinates spying on Iran and its nuclear program, were informed at a meeting last week at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., of the decision to suspend Jonathan Bank, a veteran officer and member of the senior intelligence service.

Three former officials said the Iran operations division was in open rebellion to Bank's management style, with several key employees demanding transfers.

"Iran is one of most important targets, and the place was not functioning," one of the former officials said.

In 2010, Bank was pulled out as CIA station chief in Islamabad after newspapers in Pakistan, India, England and elsewhere published his name in connection with a court case, and the agency said he had received death threats. U.S. officials believe Pakistan's intelligence service leaked the name in a dispute over CIA drone attacks in the country's tribal belt.

Bank, now 46, previously served at CIA stations in the Balkans, Moscow and Baghdad, former agency officials said. He also was a top assistant to James Pavitt, who from 1999 to 2004 headed the CIA's operations arm, now known as the National Clandestine Service.

The former CIA officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss a personnel matter. Bank is technically undercover, but his name has been public since the 2010 incident. He did not respond to email messages requesting comment.

Dean Boyd, the agency's chief spokesman, said he could not comment on a personnel issue.

"As a general matter, the CIA expects managers at all levels to demonstrate leadership skills and foster an environment that helps their employees perform at the highest levels to achieve agency objectives," Boyd said. "Whenever that doesn't happen, we examine the situation carefully and take appropriate action."

Several former CIA officials said they could not remember a senior manager being suspended over workplace issues, but management problems are a recurring challenge at the agency.

According to a Los Angeles Times report in July, an internal CIA workplace survey in 2009 found that those who left the spy agency frequently cited bad management as a factor, particularly in the clandestine service. In interviews, former officers said they felt poor managers suffered no consequences.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 05:10

Sounds like Forsyth's "The Deceiver". X-gen wunderkinden don't like the realities..?

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 18 Mar 2014 05:16

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world ... ml?hp&_r=0

According to military radar, the aircraft was flying extremely high shortly after its turn — as much as 45,000 feet, above the certified maximum altitude of 43,100 feet for the Boeing 777-200. It then descended as it crossed Peninsular Malaysia, flying as low as 23,000 feet before moving up to 29,500 feet and cruising there.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Mar 2014 05:23

Except they don't know that it was MH370. No transponder, no way of really telling. If not, where is the proof? The day after the event, the Air Force General flatly denied the report of the military radar sighting. It was days later that they decided that they had really seen MH370. How? They could only see a blip on the radar, if that.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Mar 2014 05:25

Looks like some questions like "What did the Quaid want for Pakistan?", "Where is the tape of Jinnah's 11 August Speech where he declared Al-Bakistan to be a secular nation", "Did such a speech even happen?", "What happened to MH370?" will never be satisfactorily answered.