Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2014 09:05

Interesting new posts on pprune forum, where posters are active civil and military pilots, regarding the potential new find:

Neogen
Am guessing that the new radar data likely came from the Andaman Islands base which is why the donor wishes to remain anonymous.
Very true, inside info from Naval command is that data was provided by India to Malaysia on 15th or 16th March, thereafter India stopped searching in Bay of Bengal. In fact they shared quite a lot of information that helped to narrow down the search area. However, India does want to be anonymous due to several reasons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 09:07

Singha wrote:the real capabilities of JORN must be quite good, since the americans are involved and the chinese are trying to copy it for ASBM work.

everyone except india is trying to get into this field. we have shunned this as a CBM with china and pak it seems

Why bash India to show how great something is in comparison. It may be great stuff, but no need to self flagellate.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 09:37

If and when found who pays for the search costs
Insurance?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 20 Mar 2014 09:40

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/china ... 140319.htm

China, whose 150 nationals are on board the aircraft, has sent a formal request to India to allow their warships including a salvage vessel and two frigates to enter Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to locate the plane, sources said.

The government, which has been taken by surprise, will take a decision the request after consulting the defence forces, particularly the Navy, the sources said.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Mar 2014 09:41

http://www.smh.com.au/national/missing- ... 354xz.html

The largest piece of debris spotted is up to 24 metres long.
The satellite images are credible enough to divert the search to this area, authorities have said.
However, they have reminded reporters that this is still no guarantee the objects in question are the plane.
"Satellite images do not always turn out to be related to the search even if they look good," John Young says.
The images were captured by satellite. They may not be related to the missing aircraft.
"The indication are of objects that are a reasonable size and are possibly awash, with water going up and down over the surface," says John Young from AMSA's Emergency Response Division.

All Jindalee 4000000 bazillion kilometers over the horizon through the earth apart, how come they didnt know an aircraft flew into their area of operation? Didnt they claim they can detect mosquito taking off from Singapore and pigeons taking off from north pole?

When all dust settles, we will discover that some SDRE sitting in Andaman clued them that the aircraft flew south.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Mar 2014 09:47

Nijalingappa wrote:If and when found who pays for the search costs
Insurance?

No one (or everyone!!) pays.

All considered part of the every governments public service and individual governments will pay in their own countries. That's why many governments are pissed off with the malays at being given wrong or misleading search coordinates. There are international agreements for governments to request and obtain such help from other countries.

some governments may have also contracted private parties due to lack of specific platforms like ships or aircraft in a particular region

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Mar 2014 09:50

Paul wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/report/china ... 140319.htm

China, whose 150 nationals are on board the aircraft, has sent a formal request to India to allow their warships including a salvage vessel and two frigates to enter Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to locate the plane, sources said.

The government, which has been taken by surprise, will take a decision the request after consulting the defence forces, particularly the Navy, the sources said.

Very easy to survey ocean bed for future submarine operations

Should not be allowed.

Give us the coordinates and we will search.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2014 09:58

The potential location is a long way south:
image

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 10:05

thats a very hostile area of water. only those who have no love of life like round the world yacht types venture there. seas like mountains, storms, cold..... scientists going to antarctic stations are about the only ones who a real need to cross those latitudes.

ideal home for our future SSBNs though.

but after a week of hammering , would such large objects still float? empty fuel tank?

upturned yachts do not last long in that area per my reading of deep sea rescue videos..aussies and nz have to do it all the time when yachts get into situations like main mast snapping off.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 10:08

I think the location south of India is well covered by our polar satellites
No?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 10:08

yes. but I think their orbits are elliptic with the longer axis piercing through india to spend more 'look time' over india and ironically the khanate. their speed would be highest over the polar regions maybe.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 20 Mar 2014 10:11

Shakelton

Master and commander

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Mar 2014 10:12

All Jindalee 4000000 bazillion kilometers over the horizon through the earth apart, how come they didnt know an aircraft flew into their area of operation? Didnt they claim they can detect mosquito taking off from Singapore and pigeons taking off from north pole?

When all dust settles, we will discover that some SDRE sitting in Andaman clued them that the aircraft flew south.

No one will talk ever about whose radar gave what and how the NTSB managed to get the track to most of the way to the south pole.

However, while this splash point is consistent with most probably case, the question remains, WHY ? And Whose Bin Fartin ? Surely there must be a reason, there must be a cause, until now, no media calls, no messages, no demands, and if soo-side, why go all the way south to one of the most isolated spots on earth and sooside, which makes one believe that they didnt want the plane to be found at all.

The Malaysians have lot to answer. They have Bin Fartin the smelliest. The Chinese too, but they have egg on their faces with their bluster and bravado and this and that about 10 satellies and stuff. Lets take a bet, this wasn't from a chinese satellite, it will take a Polar sun synchronous satellite with 1m resolution to nail this. Which commercial ones have this and who has them ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 10:16

there is a term called the roaring forties (latitude)...very strong westerly winds clipper ships used in the past. suze canal route is much shorter now.

Shackleton - incredible....to sail 100s of miles in a whaler boat to seek help and then walk across a mountainous island..a survivor for sure..one blessed by the fates. such people like shackleton and messner are born , not trained.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Mar 2014 10:22

10:25 Flight 370 search: Largest object sighted is 24 m in lenght : Update from possible debris of Missing Malaysian plane 370: "The largest object sighted is 24 metres in length. The debris are of reasonable size and are bobbing up and down in the Indian Ocean," said Australia's Maritime Minister John Young, a spokesman for the Australian Maritime Safety Authority.

He said the objects were located in the southern Indian Ocean about 2,500km south-west of Perth on Australia's west coast.

"Weather conditions are moderate but poor visibility has been reported, which will hamper air and satellite efforts. What we're looking for is confirmation that it does belong to the aircraft or does not," he added.

When asked whether specific items such as plane windows were visible he replied: "The imagery is not that precise."

10:12 Flight 370 search: Objects may be difficult to locate, says Australia: Australian Maritime gives an update on the possible debris in the Indian Ocean that belong the missing Malaysian jet. "We are expecting high resolution images in the coming days. These objects may be difficult to locate and may not be related to the search. The image is in the vicinity of the search area but is not distinct."

Ships and aircraft are searching for the missing plane.
09:37 Flight 370 search: Australia says possible objects in Indian Ocean: The latest from search operation on missing Malaysian jet MH 370. The debris are found near the southern Indian Ocean. The United States search ship is on its way to the search site.

"New and credible information has come to light in relation to the search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 in the southern Indian Ocean," Australian PM Tony Abbott said in the the Australian House of Representatives in Canberra. "The Australian Maritime Safety Authority has received information based on satellite imagery of objects possibly related to the search."
09:13 2 objects of missing Malaysian jet may have been found: Aus PM : Australian PM Tony Abbottt today said that two objects related to the missing Malaysian plane may have been found.

Abbott told Parliament in Canberra today that a Royal Australian Airforce Orion has been diverted to the area to attempt to locate the objects. The Orion is expected to arrive in the area this afternoon.

Abbott has also called Malaysian counterpart Najib Razak.

It has been 13 days since the flight with 239 on board went missing.

so much contradiction , they were so sure it belonged to MH370, but now they are not even so sure about it

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 10:25

25cm res KH12 sats in orbit on polar tracks over Russia could take snaps and anonymously confirm the details.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2014 10:30

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Mar 2014 10:36

^^ So that should be in range for Jindalee
EDIT: or not. A guy on pprune forum had posted his possible flight map on page 318. That could be just out of range

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Mar 2014 10:38

11:05 79-foot 'debris' may be tail section of MH370: David Gallo, who co-led the search for Air France Flight 447 which crashed in 2009, tells CNN that the 79-foot object in the Indian Ocean is "maybe it's the tail section".

The announcement raises hopes of finding parts of the plane after a huge search that is now in its 13th day.

Previous reports of debris found in the sea have not turned out to be related to the passenger jet, which vanished over Southeast Asia earlier this month.

Australian search teams have been at the forefront of the hunt for the missing plane in the remote southern Indian Ocean.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Mar 2014 10:41

chetak wrote: Very easy to survey ocean bed for future submarine operations

Should not be allowed.

Give us the coordinates and we will search.

Actually it is a nice opportunity; they will be operating their in active mode while we can be in passive and note their acoustic signature.
Sea bed mapping makes sense when carried over a long period in a week or two they will not be able to gather much data besides they will be allowed to search within a given set of coordinates.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 10:52

a 79ft long tail section is not capable of floating...so the images in question must be 2 week old images pulled from NRO archives at the potential time window of the crash.
fresh photos might find smaller debris like seat cushions only.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2014 10:55

The tail is made largely of graphite composites. It's one of the largest parts that will float. Even the Air France Airbus was first found in the form of its floating tail.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Mar 2014 11:05

Suraj wrote:The tail is made largely of graphite composites. It's one of the largest parts that will float. Even the Air France Airbus was first found in the form of its floating tail.

If they have pictures, then why not do a china and show them?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 20 Mar 2014 11:20

China is probably already doing it, and the j20 which photographed it will be in the picture too

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Mar 2014 11:23

Those things float sirji. AF 447 rudder -

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 20 Mar 2014 11:50

Shreeman wrote:
Rajiv Lather wrote:Am not wanting to go after the captain, he may well be a nice gentleman. But when I first heard of the plane disappearance and read up on it; my mind immediately picked up the word "flight simulator" and it looked out of place. 53 year old, almost 30 years of flying, logged 18,000 hours, still flying the 777 regularly and yet he hasnt had his fill ? Add to this the fact he is a tech geek and not only that, he is good with his hands and loves to tinker with electronic stuff. My point being he possesses a very impressive and unique skill set.

Suppose the 370 was hijacked and suppose all the tricks, twists and turns did take place. Would any average airline captain be able to pull off this incredible feat ? My answer - No. Because an average pilot will not possess the skill set required to do all the fancy tricks with the instruments as well with navigation and flying. It takes someone special to fool and confuse practically the whole world.

Therefore, if this chief pilot did hijack the plane, the flight simulator and his tech skills, both played an important part to make it possible.
This is quite silly Rajiv.

Shreeman not everyone can be sarvgyani and wise like you.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Mar 2014 11:55

Shreeman wrote:
Rajiv Lather wrote:Am not wanting to go after the captain, he may well be a nice gentleman. But when I first heard of the plane disappearance and read up on it; my mind immediately picked up the word "flight simulator" and it looked out of place. 53 year old, almost 30 years of flying, logged 18,000 hours, still flying the 777 regularly and yet he hasnt had his fill ? Add to this the fact he is a tech geek and not only that, he is good with his hands and loves to tinker with electronic stuff. My point being he possesses a very impressive and unique skill set.

Suppose the 370 was hijacked and suppose all the tricks, twists and turns did take place. Would any average airline captain be able to pull off this incredible feat ? My answer - No. Because an average pilot will not possess the skill set required to do all the fancy tricks with the instruments as well with navigation and flying. It takes someone special to fool and confuse practically the whole world.

Therefore, if this chief pilot did hijack the plane, the flight simulator and his tech skills, both played an important part to make it possible.
This is quite silly Rajiv.

Shreeman not everyone can be sarvgyani and wise like you.

Rajiv,

Was not an attack on you. US pilots routinely have much better toys.

In other news, Australia has released china-resolution images. P-8 radar on site reports "something big down there".

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Mar 2014 12:01

If this far down south,what was the motive? To simply run out of fuel and crash if it was a suicide attempt? It doesn't check out.This was a well planned conspiracy.Something went wrong with the original intentions. As said before,was there anything of great value in the cargo ,manifest? The conspirators could've parachuted out at a pre-determined location before the plane crashed. The fact that none of the regular ungodly entities have claimed responsibility for the same is intriguing.If it was a political statement by one of the pilots/crew/etc.,then the usual custom is to leave a martyr's video clip explaining all. This may have been a criminal event.

The other intriguing aspect is that the Oz and US radars at DG,etc., did not pick up the aircraft.They have systems that can detect any hostile for several hundreds of miles,even more and KH series of sats,etc. Enough time has lapsed for any cover-uo to have been completed if this was a covert op in some form or the other.

partha · Post by **partha** » 20 Mar 2014 12:04

From Sydney Morning Herald

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Mar 2014 12:11

Philip wrote:If this far down south,what was the motive? To simply run out of fuel and crash if it was a suicide attempt? It doesn't check out.This was a well planned conspiracy.Something went wrong with the original intentions. As said before,was there anything of great value in the cargo ,manifest? The conspirators could've parachuted out at a pre-determined location before the plane crashed. The fact that none of the regular ungodly entities have claimed responsibility for the same is intriguing.If it was a political statement by one of the pilots/crew/etc.,then the usual custom is to leave a martyr's video clip explaining all. This may have been a criminal event.

The other intriguing aspect is that the Oz and US radars at DG,etc., did not pick up the aircraft.They have systems that can detect any hostile for several hundreds of miles,even more and KH series of sats,etc. Enough time has lapsed for any cover-uo to have been completed if this was a covert op in some form or the other.

Currents are several knots x 24hrs x 10+ days means crash may have happened sevveral hundred miles from herr. Or, little currents and they find the sunk parts. Not easy even if this is the plane.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2014 12:15

partha wrote:From Sydney Morning Herald

To me it looks like a trail of objects.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2014 12:34

A bit more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26659951

and

Notice the images are from March 16.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2014 12:41

NYT reports (sorry, no URL)

John Young, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority’s emergency response division general manager, who is overseeing the ocean search off Australia, sought to calibrate any hopes that parts of the plane might have been found. One object, he said, appeared to be around 24 meters long, but he could not describe the shape of the object, nor whether it had markings on it that would identify it.

“On this occasion, the size and the fact there are a number located in the same area makes it worth looking at,” Mr. Young said at a news conference in Canberra, adding that other search resources would be sent to the site.

“This is a lead, it is probably the best lead we have right now,” he said, “They are credible sightings. The indications to me are of objects that are of reasonable size and awash with water.”

He said that part of the south Indian Ocean is liable to contain some large debris, such as containers lost overboard from merchant vessels. An Australian Air Force plane has been asked to drop marker buoys near the objects, which searchers can keep in sight to track the pieces as currents move them. Four other aircraft and several ships were rerouted to the area, Mr. Young said.

The area is four hours’ flying time from Perth for the RAAF Orion P-3, which allows the surveillance aircraft to spend two hours of search time at the site. The Royal Australian Navy ship Success was en route to the area but was some days away. “She is well equipped to recover any objects located and proven to be from MH370,” the maritime authority said in a statement.

A merchant ship that responded to a call to examine the objects was expected to arrive in the area around 6 p.m. Sydney time, Mr. Young said.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 20 Mar 2014 12:45

Mean-e-while here is a picture of major world surface currents

and a backgrounder on ocean currents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current

The finding of debris, it at all it is true, just doesn't make sense there.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Mar 2014 12:46

she flew like the marie celeste till the fuel ran out, everyone must have died much earlier
decompression remains the most likely cause

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 20 Mar 2014 12:48

Mebbe the pilot was a hero. Probably knew what was the cargo and directed the plane where it couldn't hurt anybody.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2014 12:49

a long ghost run for sure..but hopefully she might be tracked down now and the relatives get a sense of closure.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Mar 2014 12:50

If plane crashed along southern corridor and somewhere near Australia then debris could travel near to perth on West Australian Current or southern Indian Ocean Current. Antarctic Circumpolar Current would be little farther from the Crash site, if there is one on southern corridor.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2014 13:16

^^^ from the pics from BBC posted previously
a. the images are from March 16
b. objects are at 43:58:34S, 090:57:37E and 44:03:02S, 091:13:27E

Are one or are both objects thought to be remains of the plane?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2014 13:19

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/world ... ht.html?hp

Tim Farrar, a former systems engineer in California who advises companies on satellite and telecommunications issues, said the investigators appeared to have identified the broad area where the jet may have fallen into the southern Indian Ocean by building from the plane’s final “ping” signals to a satellite and using the bleak assumption that it was flying at an undeviating speed toward the Southern Ocean and, ultimately, Antarctica.

“If debris from the plane is found in the predicted area, that suggests that the plane would not have been under active pilot control during the last few hours of flight,” Mr. Farrar said in an interview. “The assumption is if you’re going off into the Southern Ocean, presumably the pilots were incapacitated by a fire or something, and it was flying on autopilot until the fuel ran out. That’s sort of implicit in the Southern Ocean assumption.”