Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Mar 2014 17:30

How is it so that they are spotting large field of debris , and not able to retrieve even a small piece of it, that could be linked incontrovertibly to MH370

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Mar 2014 17:49

until the chinese flotilla arrived on scene, the supply ship HMAS Success was only one in area with a single sea king helicopter.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 17:59

Now the Chinese ship will release some debris

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Mar 2014 18:07

Harpal Bector wrote:If there was a sensitive cargo on it, the US could have simply asked the RMAF to bring the a/c down at a Malay airbase and recovered the cargo and had the jet go on its merry way.

what if it isn't official USA that is going to make use/misuse of this system. Then the hide-and-seek makes sense. Some culinary undercover stuff that doesn't take official USA into account.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Mar 2014 18:14

Questions about autopilot & flight management computer --- thanks in advance for any pointers.

We've seen already that the above can be programmed to take one from waypoint to waypoint.
Is it correct that the path taken between waypoints is a great circle?

Suppose you have set the flight control computers + autopilot to take the plane from waypoint A to waypoint B, but you do nothing further when the plane reaches waypoint B. What is the likely behavior? The plane continues on the same great circle? Or does the plane continue keeping the compass heading constant?

When autopilot is engaged, does it try to keep a constant ground speed? Or a constant air speed?

Thanks!

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 18:31

if MAF were to get airborne then other passenger would talk about it. It would be flashed as news.
Initial talk about Li batteries as sensitive cargo gives some clue about sensitive cargo for sure.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2014 18:56

a-gupta

1. between any 2 points it is a great circle arc, if 3rd point is in same arc then it continues to be great circle, else not
2. the FMS will actually have waypoints for the whole flight and will literally hand back control to the pilot on approach to beijing (if there are no deviations)
3. the FMS will also have a number of diversionary routes set up with way points to alternate fields
4. the pilot can enter way points to over ride the pre sets - but for normal airline ops, uploading presets is the most convenient
5. the FMS/AP can and will disengage under a number of different criteria, including errors, overrides
6. if you have gone from A to B and then disengaged FMS/AP and the aircraft is trimmed for straight and level and constant thrust (natural assumption) - it will continue to fly along this heading and speed unless acted upon by external forces (obviously as weight reduces with fuel burn the aircraft will go out of trim in the vertical axis and changing winds will blow it along the lateral axis. over a 7 hour flight i find it hard to imagine that AP was not engaged atleast in the hold speed/height mode or direction mode (AP's have lots of different modes)
7. flying is done to airspeed, ground speed is the resultant of the aircraft vector and the wind vector - the aircraft responds to airspeed, not ground speed

saip · Post by **saip** » 26 Mar 2014 19:08

If the top secret thing weighs 20 tons and in 6 crates, can't believe the Americans would be dumb enough to send it in one convoy and that too guarded by just two SEALS. They could have easily flown it out.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 19:15

Actual device could be 50 kgs and the rest documentatio in 6 different languages
Langley did not want pen drives in view if Snowden episode only hard to get around copies also encrypted in Yeddish

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 19:16

The sat data ,with the alleged route to the south IOR could very well have been fudged,why the PRC is demanding it from the Malaysians.The emergence of the data did not come out immediately after the disappearance but more than a week later.Little by little was the information leaked out,why there is so much of scepticism.Secondly,the sats,KH series can easily identify from space whether the floating debris are aircraft parts or not.Years ago,JDW had a few pics showing how sat pics could be used by analysts,pics of an inddustrial plant,car park,etc., were shown in detail and from it one could estimate whether the plant was running at full steam, or not,from the emissions,numbers of cars,etc.

MH370 search: China demands to see proof that missing Malaysia Airlines flight crashed into the sea
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15276.html

US/NATO eqpt. has been usually sent in large convoys.Convoys returning do not have as much guards as those moving towards Afghanistan and the yanquis are now in retreat,no reason why they should be attacked unless they was a valuable cargo.Yes,the eqpt. could've been sent to Beijing by air right from Pak,but if it was hijacked by anti-Pak Talibunnies in Pak then no way that it could've been sent directly. or maybe that there are ISI elements part of the plot.
The sighting of the aircraft in the Maldives needs to be cleared up.There is no evidence so far that what was seen was another plane.The claim that the aircraft touched down in the Maldives could be mistaken,one theory shows that there was enough fuel to reach DG on its own.
However still no explanation from authorities why cell phones of passengers were ringing in the initial phase of the crisis.There is no way they could be picked up from a crashed aircraft in the remore south IOR!

What is a keyhole satellite and what can it really spy on?

The code named Kennan "Keyhole-class" (KH) reconnaissance satellites have been orbiting the Earth for more than 30 years. They are typically used to take overhead photos for military missions. The big question for a lot of people is: "What can they see?"

A KH-12 is a $1 billion satellite that resembles the Hubble Space Telescope, except it is looking at our planet. For security reasons, there are no published orbit schedules for the imagery spacecraft. They are supplemented by the 15-ton Lacrosse-class radar-imaging satellites.

You can think of a KH satellite as a gigantic orbiting digital camera with an incredibly huge lens on it. Optical image reconnaissance satellites use a charge coupled device (CCD) to gather images that make up a digital photograph for transmission back to Earth from an altitude of about 200 miles. Since the satellites are in orbit, they cannot hover over a given area or provide real-time video of a single location.

The satellites are often placed into various secret orbits by NASA space shuttles or Titan 4 rockets and managed by the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), headquartered in Chantilly, Va. Digital images from the satellites are analyzed, manipulated and combined by powerful computers at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA).

The black and white images are used by the military and civilian communities. Many of the details about this class of satellites remain classified, but it is known that there are several of these overhead at any given time. They have an imaging resolution of 5-6 inches, which means they can see something 5 inches or larger on the ground. These satellites probably can't read your house number, but they can tell whether there is a bike parked in your driveway.

Corona satellites, the first to do mapping of the Earth from space, had an imaging resolution of 6 feet. Those satellites were built by Lockheed Martin under contract to the CIA and the U.S. Air Force from 1960 to 1972 and were reportedly launched more than 100 times.

Mapping analysts can use satellite data to create 3-D images of land formations and structures on the ground. These images can then go to the negotiating table as countries try to end a war. Or, as in the case of the television show, the images can prove that the official word from a foreign government about some activity on the ground is not true. The same technology is also used to visualize potential escape routes for criminal activity. One was once reportedly used to observe the underbelly of an orbiting space shuttle for missing ceramic tiles, needed for re-entry.

In the United States, Vandenberg Air Force Base in California has been the primary site for the launch of many surveillance satellites during the Cold War and to the present. Some early satellites had capsules aboard to return film canisters to the Earth. The canisters were snatched in the air by Air Force crews over the Pacific Ocean. Since 1958 the special satellites were made by Lockheed Martin, and more recently Boeing has the contract with the National Reconnaissance Office.

The actual capabilities of today's spy sats are highly classified,but if Hubble can spot evidence of the Big Bang,billions of light years away,spotting large debris in the Indian Ocean is child's play for any decent spy sat.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Mar 2014 19:23

the control station of a the drones looks like this inside.
http://static2.businessinsider.com/imag ... ockpit.jpg
probably few more racks of eqpt at the back.
and then satcom antenna outside and a generator truck for field ops.

it might reasonably be housed inside a 20ft long container and weigh 20tons of gear when dismantled.

but it would be much easier to fly it directly in a IL76 from pakistan to china than take this long route.
might be the crate got stolen from some supply hub like dubai port or colombo enroute to afpak , diverted to malaysia and then ....

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2014 19:26

sensitive cargo is flown out
drone station is at bagram i think

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 26 Mar 2014 19:29

Philip wrote:Scamthony has allegedly vetoed any IN rescue/search efforts as he is sh*tting bricks that another mishap will consign him and his tattered political reputation to Davy Jones' Locker! he is already under alleged attack from within his own party fro his non-performance as DM,as well as dithering about election issues,taking no decisions in his own saintly country!

The PRC is making the maximum use of this crisis to send in the PLAN.The Chinese remember have the same word for "crisis " and "opportunity"! Carpe diem,they've "seized the day",while Scamthony has ,from falling off exposing his shockings,seized his dhoti!

Sent to me today by a "friend".Supposedly known to the Israelis.It provides the missing link,what I've always been asking,what was precious in the cargo?

The American is withdrawing from the Afghanistan, one of their command and control system (used for controlling the pilotless drones) was hijacked by the Talebans when the American transport convoy was moving down from one of the hill top bases. The Talebans ambushed the convoy and killed 2 American Seal personnel, seized the equipment/weapons, including the command and control system which weighed about 20 tons and packed into 6 crates. This happened about a month ago in Feb 2014.
What the Talebans want is money. They want to sell the system to the Russian or the Chinese. The Russian is too busy in Ukraine. The Chinese are hungry for the system's technology. Just imagine if the Chinese master the technology behind the command and control system, all the American drones will become useless. So the Chinese sent 8 top defense scientists to check the system and agreed to pay millions for it.

Sometime in early Mar 2014, the 8 scientists and the 6 crates made their way to Malaysia, thinking that it was the best covert way to avoid detection. The cargo was then kept in the Embassy under diplomatic protection. Meanwhile the American has engaged the assistance of Israeli intelligence, and together they are determined to intercept and recapture the cargo.
The Chinese calculated that it will be safe to transport it via civilian aircraft so as to avoid suspicion. After all the direct flight from KL to Beijing takes only 4 and half hours, and the American will not hijack or harm the civilian. So MH370 is the perfect carrier.
There are 5 American and Israeli agents onboard who are familiar with Boeing operation. The 2 "Iranians" with stolen passports could be among them.
.
The plane flew over North Sumatra, Anambas, South India and then landed at Maldives (some villagers saw the aircraft landing), refuelled and continued its flight to Garcia Deigo, the American Air Base in the middle of Indian Ocean.

There are several spelling mistakes,etc. in the above quote,like the one about flying over S.India and the spelling of the Andamans,but it offers a plausible reason for hijacking the aircraft and taking it by stealth to a US mil base.DG,which is completely off limits and surveillance from the rest of the world.When lakhs of innocents have in recent years been killed by the US forces in the global hotspots,also using drones and brushed off contemptuously as "collateral damage",sending a few hundred passengers to their doom is child's play for it! We should not be surprised if such a heinous act was executed...with extreme prejudice.

Philip Ji,

Appreciating your and your “friend’s” scholarship Anambas could might possibly be Anambas Eilanden in the Anambas Archepelago.

Cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Mar 2014 19:32

could be spare engines for american planes I think. cheen is always on the lookout for engine tech.
munitions would be flown in and out.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Mar 2014 19:38

Lalmohan wrote: 6. if you have gone from A to B and then disengaged FMS/AP and the aircraft is trimmed for straight and level and constant thrust (natural assumption) - it will continue to fly along this heading and speed unless acted upon by external forces (obviously as weight reduces with fuel burn the aircraft will go out of trim in the horizontal axis and changing winds will blow it along the lateral axis. over a 7 hour flight i find it hard to imagine that AP was not engaged atleast in the hold speed/height mode or direction mode (AP's have lots of different modes)

Thanks, Lalmohan! By heading, I assume compass heading?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 19:41

Declassified Hexagon spy sat at the Smithsonian,25 yr. old tech could spot a 2ft object from hundreds of miles out from space!

http://www.space.com/12996-secret-spy-s ... d-nro.html
Declassified US Spy Satellites Reveal Rare Look at Secret Cold War Space Program
Roger Guillemette, SPACE.com Contributor | September 18, 2011

latest ones"
http://atridim.wordpress.com/2013/08/28 ... [b]Massive 3-booster Delta-IV rocket launches super spy satellite with capability to identify make and model of vehicle 250 miles below[/b]

The latest drone tech.
http://www.sott.net/article/273546-New- ... tor-drones

The ARGUS system can simultaneously view an area of 15 square miles from an altitude of 17,500 ft. While never losing track of the greater image, ARGUS can allow users to open up dozens of zoomable sub-windows and track individual vehicles and people anywhere in the city-wide field of view. It can spot objects as small as six-inches wide.

"There's actually enough resolution to be able to see the people waving their arms or walking around; what kind of clothes they are wearing," said Antonaides, pointing out a bird flying in the air several miles below the camera.

The system is capable of streaming a million terabytes of HD video every day, which is the equivalent of 5,000 hours of high definition footage. This immense trove of data is capable of being stored in perpetuity, so that the government can "rewind" the video and view things that have gone on under the drone days or weeks earlier.

"If we had our choice, we would like ARGUS to be over the same area, 24 hours per day, 7 days a week," said Antonaides.

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 26 Mar 2014 20:00

krishnan wrote:can you setup a CCTV inside each airline and have to monitored on ground ???

A lot of airlines provide in flight internet access, usually through satellite uplinks. I'm not sure what the bandwidth or speeds are, but what you're suggesting should be possible using the data connection to stream video to an on ground supervision team.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Mar 2014 20:18

raj.devan wrote:
krishnan wrote:can you setup a CCTV inside each airline and have to monitored on ground ???
A lot of airlines provide in flight internet access, usually through satellite uplinks. I'm not sure what the bandwidth or speeds are, but what you're suggesting should be possible using the data connection to stream video to an on ground supervision team.

dont need to be ground team, it can be uploaded to any website , secured to be accessed by concerned person

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Mar 2014 20:46

Philip wrote:
The ARGUS system can simultaneously view an area of 15 square miles from an altitude of 17,500 ft. While never losing track of the greater image, ARGUS can allow users to open up dozens of zoomable sub-windows and track individual vehicles and people anywhere in the city-wide field of view. It can spot objects as small as six-inches wide.

"There's actually enough resolution to be able to see the people waving their arms or walking around; what kind of clothes they are wearing," said Antonaides, pointing out a bird flying in the air several miles below the camera.

The system is capable of streaming a million terabytes of HD video every day, which is the equivalent of 5,000 hours of high definition footage. This immense trove of data is capable of being stored in perpetuity, so that the government can "rewind" the video and view things that have gone on under the drone days or weeks earlier.

"If we had our choice, we would like ARGUS to be over the same area, 24 hours per day, 7 days a week," said Antonaides.

Great great great. We read stuff like this and then the fanboys start rahrahing - simply because one huge fact is left out. When you have great resolution you also have a huge amount of data. Those of us who have been searching through sat photo for debris on Tomnod.com will realise that you can view ten thousand 20 meter resolution images of the ocean and spot exactly nothing. Unless you know where to look for what you want to find - great resolution is a fine talking point but is of little practical use. Ultimately its the low res pictures that create suspicious areas that need to be looked at with greater and greater detail - and this is labour and time intensive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Mar 2014 20:48

with such superior spy tech, khan is clearly not putting forth much effort at identify the bigger objects which surely it can see with clarity.
instead it is preferring to let the search drag on and the chinese ships find it.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2014 21:07

khan probably doesnt have birds over that patch of real estate and the ones that he does have are watching the ukranian front?
however, what brf was calling aus-sat was initially reported as an american sat providing data to aus

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Mar 2014 21:08

The DG CT makes no sense at all. If there was stolen cargo on MH370, the US has enough clout with the Malaysian kleptocracy to get Boeing to just ground the plane for urgent maintenance (ACARS kaput, PAKMARSAT gizmo giving false signals, fuel composition suspect), and steal it right back there.

It is a hugely contrived CT, has to be constructed by the See Ai Yeh.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Mar 2014 21:10

Not putting in the effort, or not seeing because the objects move by the time hi res is called for after recognizing on low res. If the point of interest is fixed it's different matter. Or the capability is hyped. There has to be reason why the U2 and now drones are still needed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Mar 2014 21:12

and the global hawk has been resounding in its absense from the scene.
with a 30 hr endurance it ought to have flown out and do the searching than Orions with 2 hrs time over target.
and it has far better rated IMINT sensors than orions whose main focus is ASW

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Mar 2014 21:27

shiv wrote:Those of us who have been searching through sat photo for debris on Tomnod.com will realise that you can view ten thousand 20 meter resolution images of the ocean and spot exactly nothing. Unless you know where to look for what you want to find - great resolution is a fine talking point but is of little practical use. Ultimately its the low res pictures that create suspicious areas that need to be looked at with greater and greater detail - and this is labour and time intensive.

Yes, but you would think that computerization should be available. Especially on the ocean, where most of it is ocean and clouds. For land, I'll admit the number of possible features may be too large. Surely software can eliminate 90% of the useless stuff on the ocean and present "features" to human eyes to classify.

PS: in fact, the folks at Digital Globe/Tomnod.com by now have a huge set of ocean pictures with "features" picked by human eyes to serve as a training and a validation set for a machine learning solution.

wig · Post by **wig** » 26 Mar 2014 21:42

if we are rely on this report the Malaysian authorities are still not releasing the contents of the cargo manifest

what was on board Flight 370? Malaysian officials, after saying the cargo manifest would "be released in due course," later got a little more specific and said the Boeing 777 was carrying 440 pounds of lithium ion batteries. What else? Nothing that would cause a problem, the Malaysians assure us. An Australian news media report said the Malaysian government refused to release the manifest to the Australian government, which would find such information helpful as it tries to map out a search.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/25/opini ... index.html

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 21:47

Lalmohan wrote:sensitive cargo is flown out
drone station is at bagram i think

In Arizona

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2014 21:48

Singha wrote:and the global hawk has been resounding in its absense from the scene.
with a 30 hr endurance it ought to have flown out and do the searching than Orions with 2 hrs time over target.
and it has far better rated IMINT sensors than orions whose main focus is ASW

all busy in afpak and unkil keeping his powder dry in europe?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2014 21:49

Nijalingappa wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:sensitive cargo is flown out
drone station is at bagram i think
In Arizona

afaik the long range one is outside las vegas in nevada
there are local ones too in theatre

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 26 Mar 2014 21:59

The whole thing feels like a fake version of the beginning of "Lost"....

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Mar 2014 22:16

A_Gupta wrote:Questions about autopilot & flight management computer --- thanks in advance for any pointers.

We've seen already that the above can be programmed to take one from waypoint to waypoint.
Is it correct that the path taken between waypoints is a great circle?

Suppose you have set the flight control computers + autopilot to take the plane from waypoint A to waypoint B, but you do nothing further when the plane reaches waypoint B. What is the likely behavior? The plane continues on the same great circle? Or does the plane continue keeping the compass heading constant?

When autopilot is engaged, does it try to keep a constant ground speed? Or a constant air speed?

Thanks!

Gupta saheb please see this Operation Manual for training Delta Airlines Pilot for Boeing 777-200ER. I think this will give you the idea of various control switches on FMS particularly Auto Pilot and Flight Director component.Instrument panels are numbers and described excellently.Cockpit is in display.

Below is rather long tutorial right from takeoff to landing of Boeing 777-200ER and it would give idea about how routes are set up in FMS besides other actions taken by pilot for smooth flying. This tutorial from X-Plane , the software found of Captain Zaharie.
Please remember that this is for the same type of plane which met its fate a fortnight ago bearing number MH370

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 26 Mar 2014 23:10

Is there no military radar on the Cocos Keeling Islands currently?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Mar 2014 00:30

Whales (or dolphins):

"We investigated a couple of visual contacts that actually just turned out to be marine mammal activity. So unfortunately didn't find anything further to report today," said Flying Officer Peter Moore.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-ai ... s-improve/

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Mar 2014 00:37

Maybe they should be asking what is NOT at the pilot's cockpit simulator. Sorry to bring that up, the man is probably not alive and 399% probably innocent. But I begin to wonder if there was a fake cockpit somewhere, with ACARS and PAKMARTSAT link boxes and autopilot software, all along with scenery, maps, Doppler shift calculators etc etc.

IOW, what they should be looking for is the equipment used by someone, not to fly the plane from the plane, but to fly the plane from the ground and MAKE it look like it was flown from the plane. Someone may have trained extensively to do this from the ground.

The visual part of the flight sim was perhaps to check whether there was something else that happened in a real flight, that had been overlooked, and could have been used to detect the scam.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Mar 2014 01:29

from chaanakya's link to the flight manual

. Flight Director Switch
ON: Displays the flight director command bars on the associated ADI
Turn on the F/D switch on the ground with no autopilots engaged. If no autopilot is engaged, the flight director defaults to heading hold and vertical speed mode.
OFF: Turns off the flight director display bars on the ADI

saip · Post by **saip** » 27 Mar 2014 02:13

Anyone know if the cabin door can be opened from outside? I know it defeats the very purpose of reinforcing the door against terrorists.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Mar 2014 02:16

chaanakya wrote:
Gupta saheb please see this Operation Manual for training Delta Airlines Pilot for Boeing 777-200ER. I think this will give you the idea of various control switches on FMS particularly Auto Pilot and Flight Director component.Instrument panels are numbers and described excellently.Cockpit is in display.

Below is rather long tutorial right from takeoff to landing of Boeing 777-200ER and it would give idea about how routes are set up in FMS besides other actions taken by pilot for smooth flying. ......

Thanks!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Mar 2014 02:20

Harpal Bector wrote:Is there no military radar on the Cocos Keeling Islands currently?

This is from May 2012, dunno how fast the Aussies move.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6346265696

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Mar 2014 04:03

Just realized, IGARI - VAMPI - GIVAL is 415.8 nm per skyvector.com; it would take the plane about 46 minutes at 540 knots (which is Mach 0.84 at 35,000 feet). Since the plane turned at IGARI at 01:21 AM, and left the Malaysian military radar at 02:15AM, that is 54 minutes. So the plane may have last been seen headed to IGREX, but when it vanished off the mil. radar, it could not have been but a few minutes into that part of the flight (GIVAL to IGREX).

Remembering that Malaysian time is UTC+8, this chart from INMARSAT says the plane turned abruptly between 2:15 and 2:30. At 2:15 the plane vanished from Malaysian mil. radar and was headed to IGREX. (GIVAL to IGREX is 30 minutes at 540 knots).

Next question is - do we believe the plane dodged Indonesian radar?

PS: how does one read this graph? Where is the "zero" of the frequency shift corresponding to the plane at rest. The Doppler frequency shift has to cross the zero axis because it went from flying away from the satellite to flying towards the satellite for a part of its course. But I don't see where to put the zero on the y-axis. You might think it should pass through the "take-off" point but that doesn't work.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Mar 2014 04:30

Why no show 3:11, 4:11 AM pings?
http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 0-WaPo.jpg