Eastern Europe/Ukraine

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Mar 2014 00:00

Confrontation on Crimea - Double talk, double dealing by the West - B.G. Verghese

The West may huff and puff but its own policies in erstwhile Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan have been self-serving. Russia is seeking to build a Eurasian Economic Union to rebuild its strategic and economic clout as a counterpoise to the European Union. The West sees this as restoring the Soviet Union in another guise and is out to prevent any such consummation. India understands Russia's interest in Crimea and has pleaded for diplomatic rather than more muscular responses. This country has strong reason to want to have Russia as a strategic counterweight against US unilateralism, often dressed up as upholding democracy and righteousness.

Now the above is a clear articulation of the Indian interest.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Mar 2014 00:04

The message on this one is muddled - as is our PM's.
Crimea and punishment : Sanjaya Baru

Some in the media have wrongly interpreted Indian National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon’s statement on Crimea as a message of support for Russia. Menon did not acknowledge the “legitimacy” of Russian action, as some in the media have made out. In fact, Menon’s exact words were that “there are legitimate Russian and other interests involved” in Crimea. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s remarks during his telephonic conversation with Putin further reflect this nuanced and balanced Indian response.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 00:14

Golden rule.Never provoke the Russian Bear. Napoleon tried and failed,so did Hitler.Russia lost more than 20 million dead in WW2.If O'Bomber has even a sliver of appreciation from history,even Hollywood style history (Enemy at the Gates),he should think a hundred times before challenging Russia.The sense of patriotism in that country runs very,very deep and whenever Russia as a nation is challenged,its people rise up and support whatever leadership is at the helm.Putin is no Stalin by any stretch of the imagination and commands a very high level of support right now.

Even before the Ukraine crisis,Russia took on the US,stood firm on Syria after being lied too and double-crossed time and time again.Trying to overtly encircle Russia with a military missile ring around its borders will invite a counter offensive that will arrive at the opportune moment which will be far more dangerous for the Euro-Peons than just a return to Mother Russia of its long lost child,the Crimea. It will also see a further aggressive stance taken by Russia in international affairs,more military support and sophisticated arms for Iran,Syria,etc.There was a news report that Russia intends to sell oil to India (at cheap rates?),if the EU increases the sanctions regime.The BRICS nations will band closer together,and what might eventually come out of the moronic and cretinous policies of the West is a nightmare (for the West)....an alliance between China Russia and India,which the Soviets toyed with during the Cold War,which may look difficult today thanks to China's aggro and deep distrust by India,but if it plays its cards well,may look attractive to many Indian policy makers.

O'Bomber's barb that Russia is only a "regional power",but America is the strongest,reminds me of the old schoolboy boast,"my pr*ck is bigger than yours"! Quite right,O'Bomber is the biggest pr*ck around!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15305.html

Ukraine crisis: Russia is a regional power, America is the most powerful nation in the world, says Barack Obama in warning to Vladimir Putin

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Mar 2014 00:30

Philip
WEST's new found use for used C..Pakistan might give the clue. Uighir Terrorism's rise in PRC might be the Bismillah for laying down the foundation of this new "icy' war. If so, many centers will soon collapse, unable to hold these Kubudh plunge the world in actual MahaBhoomi Yudh .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2014 01:09

ShauryaT wrote:The message on this one is muddled - as is our PM's.
Crimea and punishment : Sanjaya Baru
Some in the media have wrongly interpreted Indian National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon’s statement on Crimea as a message of support for Russia. Menon did not acknowledge the “legitimacy” of Russian action, as some in the media have made out. In fact, Menon’s exact words were that “there are legitimate Russian and other interests involved” in Crimea. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s remarks during his telephonic conversation with Putin further reflect this nuanced and balanced Indian response.

This gentleman is an example of what is wrong with UPA. He was on the NSAB and adviser to PMO. Look at his grandoise title. Yet his thinking is pedestrain and appeasing the US. He holds no official position but writes to contradict an official!!!
A case of speaking out of turn and more like a mouthpiece for the the Mumbler.

Best option for Russia now is do nothing and let them fulminate.

member_28515 · Post by **member_28515** » 26 Mar 2014 01:13

So would china give up claims to arunachal and return northern kashmiri territory ceded by pakistan if we gave up tibet cause??

And even if China is a US Munna.. knowing them , i can guarantee..they would also be working to end dependence on US for crucial tech in defence and communications.
Developing communication systems and GLONASS jointly allows designing around and understanding possible exploits and allow nominal customizations that would further secure individual collaborators' implementations from being exploited by collaborators ..

I beleive It is doable and costs and time can be greatly reduced.

at the very least, indian govt could build a isolated local intranet and run custom or russian OS to prevent eavesdropping on GOI and defence. does anybody know if development for Indias OS is progressing?

on the Ukraine - i beleive the west cannot take on Russia.. Putin looks like a serious customer.. and anyone watching RT will note the sophistication .. - they are fighting the media war better , perhaps because i am biased agains the bully!? but objectively, i feel Russia has a valid point.. except for the demographic change..

here the US has no stand.. the entire north and south american continent was subjected to genocide and enslavement by the european colonialists.. it is disgusting that the US moralizes to the world.. and all we can learn is "might is right" ..

Philip wrote:Golden rule.Never provoke the Russian Bear. Napoleon tried and failed,so did Hitler.Russia lost more than 20 million dead in WW2.If O'Bomber has even a sliver of appreciation from history,even Hollywood style history (Enemy at the Gates),he should think a hundred times before challenging Russia.The sense of patriotism in that country runs very,very deep and whenever Russia as a nation is challenged,its people rise up and support whatever leadership is at the helm.Putin is no Stalin by any stretch of the imagination and commands a very high level of support right now.

Even before the Ukraine crisis,Russia took on the US,stood firm on Syria after being lied too and double-crossed time and time again.Trying to overtly encircle Russia with a military missile ring around its borders will invite a counter offensive that will arrive at the opportune moment which will be far more dangerous for the Euro-Peons than just a return to Mother Russia of its long lost child,the Crimea. It will also see a further aggressive stance taken by Russia in international affairs,more military support and sophisticated arms for Iran,Syria,etc.There was a news report that Russia intends to sell oil to India (at cheap rates?),if the EU increases the sanctions regime.The BRICS nations will band closer together,and what might eventually come out of the moronic and cretinous policies of the West is a nightmare (for the West)....an alliance between China Russia and India,which the Soviets toyed with during the Cold War,which may look difficult today thanks to China's aggro and deep distrust by India,but if it plays its cards well,may look attractive to many Indian policy makers.

O'Bomber's barb that Russia is only a "regional power",but America is the strongest,reminds me of the old schoolboy boast,"my pr*ck is bigger than yours"! Quite right,O'Bomber is the biggest pr*ck around!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15305.html

Ukraine crisis: Russia is a regional power, America is the most powerful nation in the world, says Barack Obama in warning to Vladimir Putin

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2014 07:20

The splendid republic of Ukraine,aka Gangsta-raine.The West's new shining example of a "legitimate"
people's democratic revolution! These were the thugs who engineered the violence that overthrew Yanukovych earlier,fully supported by O'Bomber and the Euro-Peons,supporting murderous thugs as they did in the Balkans earlier.

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-r ... lling-157/

Muzychko killing: Ultra-nationalist mastermind demands cops’ arrest, Interior Minister’s dismissal
Published time: March 25, 2014
Dmitry Yarosh (L) and Aleksandr Muzychko (Still from RT video; Reuters)

Dmitry Yarosh, leader of Ukraine's Right Sector nationalist party, is demanding the resignation of acting Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and the arrest of police officers involved in the killing of notorious radical militant Aleksandr Muzychko.

"We cannot watch silently as the Interior Ministry works to undermine the revolution," Interfax reported Yarosh as saying. “We demand the immediate resignation of the Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, and the arrest of the commander of the Sokol Special Forces and those guilty of [Muzychko’s] murder."

Earlier Tuesday, right-wing militant leader Muzychko, also known as Sashko Bilyi, was killed in a police raid against his gang in Rovno, western Ukraine, Ukraine’s Interior Ministry said in a statement.

Right Sector leaders threatened Avakov with revenge, though they did not specify exactly what they would do.

“We will take revenge on Arsen Avakov for the death of our brother,” said Roman Koval, the Right Sector organizer in Rovno, charivne.info news portal reported.

Koval claimed that the operation to kill Muzychko was ordered personally by Avakov, the acting Interior Minister.

Yarosh backed the claim, adding that the party views Muzychko’s killing as an assassination. The Right Sector leader said that the party understands that “many want to destabilize the situation in Ukraine,” but added that the nationalists “call for peace” and are doing everything in their power to prevent conflicts.

Muzychko is, however, known for stunts that are far from peaceful.

Following the coup in Kiev, the far-right militant refused to give up the weapons which he occasionally used to intimidate government officials in the city of Rovno, in western Ukraine. He threatened local authorities with an AK-47 and made openly anti-Semitic statements on videos which were then posted on YouTube.

Ukraine filed charges of hooliganism and obstructing law enforcement agencies against Muzychko on March 8. Four days later he was put on the Ukrainian police’s wanted list.
Ukraine's top cop accepts challenge

Avakov said in a reply to Right Sector that he accepts the far-right group’s challenge, adding that his stance toward lawbreakers will be harsh.

"If some gangsters threaten the minister, I accept this challenge and I am ready to accept any challenge, because that's my job,” Avakov said in a statement. “Henceforth my policy will be very harsh toward bandits, toward those who take up arms to violate order."

By “bandits,” Avakov said he was referring to people who loot enterprises or homes and possess unregistered guns.

Earlier, Russia put both Muzychnko and Yarosh on the international wanted list for allegedly torturing and murdering at least 20 captured Russian soldiers during the first Chechen War in 1994-1995.

On March 16, Yarosh threatened to sabotage Russian pipelines on the Ukrainian territory.

Yarosh has headed the ultra-right Stepan Bandera All-Ukrainian Organization Trizub since 2005. During the Maidan protests, the organization became the basis for the Right Sector movement.

On Saturday, the movement announced it would become a political party. In a statement it slammed the current authorities in Kiev and demanded early parliamentary elections, nominating Yarosh for president.

Right Sector members were very active in the violence which triggered the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovich. The group’s fighters used clubs, petrol bombs and firearms against Ukrainian police and have been wearing Nazi insignia.

Training in hand combat among opposition fighters from the nationalist organization "Right sector" in a camp on Independence Square in Kiev. (RIA Novosti/Andrey Stenin)

Training in hand combat among opposition fighters from the nationalist organization "Right sector" in a camp on Independence Square in Kiev. (RIA Novosti/Andrey Stenin)

Author and broadcaster Neil Clark told RT why the allegations that Muzychko was “murdered” make perfect sense.

“The current government in Kiev came to power with the help of the Right Sector. They wouldn’t have got the power without the Right Sector. It was the force that was torching government buildings, using the violence to get them into power. Now they’ve become an embarrassment to them. I think there are two reasons why this has happened.

“First of all the new authorities in Kiev want to get the Right Sector into government security operator organizations – they want them to join the National Guard, they want them to lay down their weapons , because they are frightened that they will be an alternative force in the country, which could threaten them in time. I think that the second reason is the PR angle. They are an embarrassment to the new government in Ukraine, which is being sold as a wonderfully progressive, democratic government,” he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 08:58

In Crimea, Russia May Have Gotten a Jump on West by Evading U.S. Eavesdropping

U.S. Scurries to Shore Up Spying on Russia
By Adam Entous,Julian E. Barnes and Siobhan Gorman
Updated March 24, 2014 1:48 a.m. ET

A look at the holes in U.S. intelligence in the run up to the Crimea takeover and the scramble to address them. WSJ's national security correspondent Adam Entous joins the News Hub with the exclusive. Photo: Getty.

U.S. military satellites spied Russian troops amassing within striking distance of Crimea last month. But intelligence analysts were surprised because they hadn't intercepted any telltale communications where Russian leaders, military commanders or soldiers discussed plans to invade.

America's vaunted global surveillance is a vital tool for U.S. intelligence services, especially as an early-warning system and as a way to corroborate other evidence. In Crimea, though, U.S. intelligence officials are concluding that Russian planners might have gotten a jump on the West by evading U.S. eavesdropping. (Follow the latest developments on the crisis in Ukraine.)

"Even though there was a warning, we didn't have the information to be able to say exactly what was going to happen," a senior U.S. official says.

To close the information gap, U.S. spy agencies and the military are rushing to expand satellite coverage and communications-interception efforts across Russia, Ukraine and the Baltic states. U.S. officials hope the "surge" in assets and analysts will improve tracking of the Russian military and tip off the U.S. to any possible intentions of Russian President Vladimir Putin before he acts on them.

The U.S. moves will happen quickly. "We have gone into crisis-response mode," a senior official says.

Still, as Russia brings additional forces to areas near the border with eastern Ukraine, America's spy chiefs are worried that Russian leaders might be able to cloak their next move by shielding more communications from the U.S., according to officials familiar with the matter. "That is the question we're all asking ourselves," one top U.S. official says.

The Obama administration is "very nervous," says a person close to the discussions. "This is uncharted territory."

It all comes amid the backdrop of a worried government in Kiev. Ukraine's foreign minister said Sunday that the troop buildup is increasing the possibility of war with Russia.

Months before the takeover, U.S. spy agencies told White House policy makers that Mr. Putin could make a play for Crimea, home to strategically important Russian naval installations. That led to an unsuccessful diplomatic push by the Obama administration.

When the moment arrived, U.S. attention was focused on the troops on Russian soil. Instead, forces already inside Crimea were spearheading the takeover of the peninsula, before U.S. spy agencies fully realized what was happening.

Citing conflicting assessments from intelligence agencies, Rep. Michael Rogers, Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, has launched a review of whether spy agencies misjudged Mr. Putin's intentions. Agency officials say the differences were relatively small and reflected the competing analysis that policy makers expect intelligence agencies to conduct.

Some Obama administration, military and intelligence officials say they doubt the U.S. could have done much differently. Even with a clearer understanding of Mr. Putin's plans, the Obama administration thought it had few options to stop him. U.S. spy chiefs told President Barack Obama three days before the Crimea operation that Russia could take over the peninsula so fast that Washington might find out only when it was done.

Some U.S. military and intelligence officials say Russia's war planners might have used knowledge about the U.S.'s usual surveillance techniques to change communication methods about the looming invasion. U.S. officials haven't determined how Russia hid its military plans from U.S. eavesdropping equipment that picks up digital and electronic communications.

Since the end of the Cold War, U.S. spy satellites and other intelligence-gathering assets have been focused less on Russia and more on counterterrorism, the Middle East and Asia, reflecting shifting U.S. priorities.

"This is the kind of thing young military officers are going to be reading about in their history books," says one senior U.S. official.

As early as December, U.S. intelligence analysts and diplomats got indications that Mr. Putin had his eye on Crimea. Widespread protests in Kiev against then-Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych concerned the Kremlin. The analysts and diplomats warned that Moscow could take unspecified measures to protect Russian interests in Crimea if the situation worsened.

The U.S. military's European Command asked the Pentagon to increase intelligence-collection efforts in the region, including satellite coverage. Images showed what U.S. officials described as typical military movements at Russian bases in Crimea.

Looking back, some U.S. officials now suspect Russia might have been trickling more highly trained units into Crimea in small numbers. But U.S. intelligence analysts didn't pick up any such indications before the takeover, officials briefed on the intelligence-gathering effort say.

In early February, Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, dispatched a team of embassy officers to Crimea. The details they brought back were sketchy but raised concerns in diplomatic circles.

Human-rights activists, members of the Tatar community and other local contacts told the American team that new political groups were being formed in Crimea with a clear anti-Kiev agenda. Yet nothing in the internal reports written about the visit made Mr. Pyatt and other diplomats think Russia was planning to invade, according to officials.

A turning point came after violence started to grow on Feb. 18, a U.S. intelligence official says. Officials began to examine whether a "rapid change in government" in Kiev would draw Moscow into the conflict militarily.

U.S. suspicions peaked on Feb. 25, four days before the Russians seized Crimea. Russia's Defense Ministry invited the U.S. military attaché in Moscow to a briefing, where officials spelled out plans for a massive military exercise near Ukraine and Crimea.

U.S. defense and intelligence officials say they worried the exercise was cover for a move on Ukraine, a tactic Moscow used in 2008 before its intervention in Georgia. Intelligence assessments delivered to policy makers after the briefing put the word "exercises" in quotation marks, reflecting skepticism among analysts. Satellite images showed a clear troop buildup near Ukraine.

European Command officials again asked for more intelligence-collection resources. The military increased satellite coverage of Ukraine and Russia but couldn't steer too many resources away from Afghanistan, North Korea, Iran and other hot spots, U.S. officials say.

In Feb. 26 briefings to Mr. Obama and other policy makers, James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, and other spy chiefs singled out Crimea as a flash point. The assessment said the Russian military was likely making preparations for possible operations in Crimea. Mr. Obama was told the operations could be launched with little warning.

But U.S. intelligence agencies didn't have corroborating evidence. Mr. Putin and other Russian leaders gave little away in internal communications picked up by the U.S. "We didn't have someone saying: 'Let's do this,' " one U.S. official recalls.

It isn't clear if Russian leaders deliberately avoided communicating about the invasion or simply found a way to do so without detection by the U.S. Another possibility: Mr. Putin made a last-minute decision to seize Crimea—and told almost no one other than those responsible for carrying out the invasion. Some U.S. and U.K. officials believe that Russia's takeover plan was drawn up in advance and ready to go, reducing the need to discuss it.

Inside Crimea, Russian troops exercised what U.S. officials describe as extraordinary discipline in their radio and cellphone communications. Remarks that were intercepted by U.S. spy agencies revealed no hint of the plans.

On Feb. 27, Mr. Pyatt sent an urgent note to Washington. A picture attached to his note showed Russian flags flying at Crimea's parliament building. U.S. officials didn't know if the forces that seized the building were Russian or a rogue unit of the Ukrainian police force involved in the crackdown on protesters in Kiev.

There were no Americans on the ground in Crimea to check reports of Russian military movements, U.S. officials say. The U.S. also didn't have drones overhead to gather real-time intelligence, officials say. That increased the U.S.'s reliance on satellite imagery and information gleaned from an analysis of social media, which was muddled by Russian disinformation. State Department officials declined to discuss any technical-intelligence activities.

If Mr. Putin decided to launch a takeover, many U.S. intelligence analysts thought he would use troops participating in the military exercises. Officials now say they underestimated the quality of Russian forces inside Crimea.

One intelligence official says the U.S. had "definitive information that Russia was using its military to take control of the peninsula" by the night of Feb. 27, declining to be more specific. The next morning, as armed gunmen in unmarked uniforms seized strategic points in Crimea, U.S. intelligence agencies told policy makers that the gunmen likely were Russian troops.

Still, the consensus assessment from Mr. Clapper's office to Mr. Obama couldn't assign "high confidence" to reports that Russia was seizing Crimea by force because of a lack of corroborating information.

Later on Feb. 28, Mr. Obama issued his final public warning to Mr. Putin about violating Ukraine's sovereignty. By then, though, the Crimean peninsula was under Russian military control, U.S. intelligence officials said later.

Pentagon officials say much of their real-time intelligence came from local reports filed through the embassy in Kiev. The defense attache and other embassy officials worked the phones, calling Ukrainian border patrol and navy contacts. Some of those contacts told the Americans they were burning sensitive documents and reported details of Russian movements.

U.S. military officials also made urgent calls to their counterparts in Russia. Not surprisingly, Russian military officials offered little information. Some of them claimed to be surprised. "It was classic maskirovka," says a senior U.S. official, using the Russian word for camouflage. Spies use the word to describe Moscow's tradition of sophisticated deception tactics.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 09:34

The Netherlands: Obama says US generally doesn't need to invade neighbours to influence them

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 09:39

yes start counting
Grenada
Panama
Guatemala
El Salvador
Philippines

The list goes on..
The list goes ooon
Dada dadi dada

The US Has Invaded 70 Nations Since 1776 –
Make 4 July Independence From America Day

By Dr Gideon Polya

05 July, 2013
Countercurrents.org

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 26 Mar 2014 09:43

The closest to Crimea is
United States invasion of Panama

The United States Invasion of Panama, code-named Operation Just Cause, was the invasion of Panama by the United States in December 1989. It occurred during the administration of U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and ten years after the Torrijos–Carter Treaties were ratified to transfer control of the Panama Canal from the United States to Panama by 1 January 2000.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 11:43

Indeed , US is good at preaching values and far less in observing it.

If US and West had to apply to themself the same standards that they judge others with ....then NATO needs to be tried for War Crimes in Kosovo and US would be tried for Genocide and War Crimes during Iraq Invasion and subsequent Occupation where Hundered of Thousand of people have died and where Madeline Albright has no remorse whatsoever over 5 lacs Iraqi children dead and she feels its justified.

The same cheer leaders who are now supporting Sanctions were then cheering the US during its Iraq Invasion providing with Material and intelligence support on a way based on phoney material of Iraq possessing and subsequently finding none.

The UN Chief in all these adventure has been truly acting like Dhritarashtra .... tacitly supporting the West......blinded by Western talks of Democracy and Freedom.

The current Chief Bhen-Ki-Moon infact said after post Libya Intervention where they used ground force even when the mandate from UN was for NFZ that it was a good model to follow.

Russian Annexation as they call it must be perhaps few or even Unique in History where most of the local population supported it and not a single person died during that phase.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Mar 2014 12:42

Who was it who said, that Russia is never as strong as it appears to be. But it is never as weak as it appears to be as well.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 13:12

Over 15,000 Ukrainian servicemen in Crimea pass to Russian military service

More than 15,000 servicemen from Ukrainian military units, formations and organisations previously deployed in the Russian Republic of Crimea said they wanted to continue military service in Russian law enforcement agencies, Crimean government told Itar-Tass on Wednesday.

"As of March 26, Russian national flags were hoisted at all 193 military formations and organisations of Ukrainian Armed Forces deployed in the Russian Republic of Crimea," Chief of the Russian Armed Forces General Staff General Valery Gerasimov said earlier on Wednesday.

"More than 15,000 Ukrainian soldiers and officers who served in Ukrainian Armed Forces on the peninsula said they want to continue military service in Russian army and other law enforcement agencies in the country," a source in Crimean government said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 13:14

I feel Sorry for Ukraine Service Men and People of Ukraine who got caught in this geo-political game.

Atleast the service man in Crimea had the option to join Russian Armed Forces but for the people and service people in mainland the tough IMF measure would mean they have difficult time ahead for them.

Hopefully they get hired by EU Armed Forces

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 26 Mar 2014 14:31

Austin wrote:

In Crimea, Russia May Have Gotten a Jump on West by Evading U.S. Eavesdropping

"Even though there was a warning, we didn't have the information to be able to say exactly what was going to happen," a senior U.S. official says.

....

Inside Crimea, Russian troops exercised what U.S. officials describe as extraordinary discipline in their radio and cellphone communications. Remarks that were intercepted by U.S. spy agencies revealed no hint of the plans.

I hope you all realize that this article (from a rabid Atlanticist propaganda outlet) is for Honor & Dignity purposes only.

They are trying to explain away their conspicuous lack of military action against Russia as "intelligence failure": those wily Russians didn't use their radio sets.

When the real and obvious reason for American/NATO inaction is their fear of Russia's nuclear (and conventional) military capability.

(Added later)

I feel Sorry for Ukraine Service Men and People of Ukraine who got caught in this geo-political game.

I think the Russians feel the same way. For Russians, Ukrainians and Russians belong to the same people. The truth is that Putin cares more about Ukraine then the US/NATO/EU. For US/EU, Ukrainians are just canon fodder in their drive to break Russia (just as they want to beak India).

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 26 Mar 2014 16:03

One can't help but notice the spite and venom in the comments of westen/Atlanticist politicians and media on the return of the Crimea to Russia.

Russia put it's foot down in Ukraine and there was nothing the US/EU/NATO could do. Russia's brave stand against the US/EU/NATO's relentless advance toward Russia's western borders is a turning point in history: the limit of US/NATO power is there for the world to see.

The Russian President, Vladimir Putin understand very well that even if he/Russia allows the US/EU/NATO to bring Ukraine and Belarus into the NATO/EU, they (the US/EU/NATO) won't stop there: the ultimate goal of the US/EU/NATO is break Russia and control (suck out the wealth/natural resources) of the fragments.

Well, President Putin made it it clear to them that they can not advance any further. And the impotence of the US/EU/NATO stands exposed, this is why there is so much venom against Russia and President Putin, almost every talk show host, comedian, etc. makes snide remarks against President Putin/Russia.

All the US/EU/NATO can do is moralize from their high horse of arrogance, but the world, the people in Africa, Asia and Latin America are not stupid.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 21:51

The problem with Western Approach of problem solving is that they have a zero-sum approach towards problem .....they dont understand the cultural , historic or ethnic/religious aspect when dealing with complicated issues.

All they see about Ukraine is a nice piece of real estate which if influenced Western "Democracy & Freedom" which can only come through EU AA would change the entire population into Euro Friendly , anti-Russian one and it would be a Great Idea to Contain Russia in that way.

The same logic was applied to problem solving in Iraq , Libya and via Arab Spring in Syria and via ethnic divide in Kosovo .... in all these cases it was backed by combined military power.... and in Afghanistan with senseless bombing

You dont have to be a genius to know how these situation stand in these countries where generations have been destroyed and millions have lost their life either due to direct war or/and post-war sanctions and internal rift.

Now to their surprise when trying the same in Ukraine via pre-planned Maidan/Democracy friendly activist .....they divided the country along East West lines , Lost Crimea right under their nose without the Russians having to fire a single shot in anger and any loss of life , not to mention in the process created a rift in society that will stay for a long time with great Economic Hardship to Ukranian people in months and years to come.

With their own bad Karma ....they lost their own Soldier in thousands something they could have avoided if a great deal of thought was applied to solve complicated issues and use of military power was avoided with UN given prominence and are now in a significant weakened state of economy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2014 22:23

[deleted] Not Germane to the thread.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 Mar 2014 22:39

More like how colonists dealt with others during colonial times; while bankrolling propaganda about barbarian others, war efforts, and so on. That this is coming out in open- like Saudi financing jihad in Syria- is another indicators that there was always political wheeling dealing and war mongering.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 26 Mar 2014 23:30

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/ ... inian.html

It is in many ways uncanny how much the situation today resembles the absolute chaos which took place in the Ukraine in 1918-1920 when many different factions fought each other, several foreign countries intervened in one way or another, total chaos and anarchy reigned over much of the country while politicians made ridiculous promises (for those who know little about this period, just read the Wikipedia entry under "Nestor Makhno"). Eventually, the situation was "solved", if one can use that word in this context, by the invasion of the Ukraine by the Red Army, a catastrophic war against Poland, Bolshevik terror and WWII. In other words, 2 years of total chaos turned into 25 years of horror and immense suffering for the Ukrainian people. That precedent is, indeed, very, very scary.

The good news is, of course, that there is no Red Army today. The bad news is that the Russian military does no want to intervene in the Ukraine. At the very best, the Kremlin might be forced to move the Russian military into eastern and, possibly, southern Ukraine to protect Russian-speakers from the violence resulting from a breakup of the Ukraine, but that would be an option of last resort as the Kremlin fully understands that the imbeciles in charge of the major powers in the West could do something truly stupid in reaction to such a Russian move. Thus, from the Russian point of view the best solution is by far, and I have said that many times here, to have a more or less stable, more or less prosperous, more or less "not anti-Russian" and independent Ukraine as a good neighbor.

When Putin told the Russian Federal Assembly and the rest of the world in his historical speech that Russia did not want to occupy or annex the Ukraine, he was not lying to cover up an imminent invasion, or trying to appease the West or showing how generous and good the Russians are - he was stating a basic reality of Russian pragmatic self-interest: Russia neither needs nor wants the Ukraine, especially now that it got Crimea back. What Russia does not want is a neo-Nazi Ukraine with NATO bases.

So if the Empire's leaders had any common sense at all, they would understand the basic truth that this is not a zero-sum game and that Russia's interests are quite compatible to the West's as long as the West gives up its crazy idea of setting a neo-Nazi regime in Kiev surrounded by NATO bases. That crazy shit Russia simply will not accept. But an independent Ukraine?! Of course - please, they will even help pay for it as long as it avoids a much more dangerous outcome resulting in a civil war.

Alas, all the signs are that Obama and his EU minions are just not going to accept anything short of a total victory - thereby securing their own total defeat, but at the cost of a complete destruction of rump-Ukraine and a horrible predicament for the people of the Ukraine. Just look at what these politicians did with Iraq or Libya! The AngloZionist logic is simple: what I cannot get - I burn down.

I recommend reading Saker's entire article.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 27 Mar 2014 00:07

Kerry envisages making Russia a Super Power if Russia toes the line.

Right now Russia is a regional power unlike China which is a supel powel he averred

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2014 00:52

Yesterday on Terry Gross's Fresh Air there was an expert Kimberly Marten, talking about Crimea and how it plays into the Russian identity and making some far out claims on Putin's psyche.

Fresh Air Kimberly Marten on Crimea and Russian Identity

With experts like this US is ill served.

A visit to this thread would have made her more well informed.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Mar 2014 02:20

With experts like this US is ill served.

Rumsfeld in trouble for insulting intelligence of apes

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Mar 2014 04:56

See Enn Enn Breaking Nooze:
"INTEL: RUSSIA MORE LIKELY TO INVADE UKRAINE"

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Mar 2014 05:10

ramana wrote:The post-East India Company Anglo-Saxons created a legal, international system under their control. using that they can manipulate the situation so they benefit. Germans, Imperial Japanese, Indians, Soviet all suffered.
If one plays per the rules one will lose and they win. The only way out is to knock the chessboard.

Crimea is an example of how to knock the chessboard.

The French and Germans have already set up the sword on which the post EIC Anglo Saxon block will fall and die.

link

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Mar 2014 05:20

Philip wrote:Nice red rag to wave towards Russia by the Western losers,change of colour as they are better known for waving the white flag as in Vietnam,Iraq,etc.!

What if...Putin raises the price of gas to Europe instead of stopping it as threatened in retaliation for sanctions?

Too soon. Let the winter bite Europe in another 8 months. Let the freeze begin. Cameron will crawl on his knees considering Tories were the losers today in the debate between anti Europe Farage and pro Europe clegg. And Tories did not even participate in the debate.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2014 05:46

panduranghari, Thanks for the long post. Will try to understand and benefit from it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2014 07:55

Nijalingappa wrote:Kerry envisages making Russia a Super Power if Russia toes the line.

Right now Russia is a regional power unlike China which is a supel powel he averred

Russia is a regional power when it comes to conventional capabilities .... which is to say it can project its power in and around CIS and near abroad but not in far off areas like North Atlantic as it lacks the asset to do so. ( something only US can do )

They are a Nuclear Power on par with US , quantitatively comparable to US due to START and qualitatively much better than US or NATO due to sustained funding of N Weapons program even during dark times of 90's.

In Sub Strategic/Tactical Weapons which is to say something that is not covered under start , Russia has around 4000-5000 substrategic N Weapons while US has around 3000-4000.

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/n ... tatus.html

The most interesting aspect of Russian Nuclear weapons development is they are developing New Physics Package that currently no western country are doing. ( Since the 90's when N weapons testing has stopped )

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2014 08:02

German chancellor against imposition of economic sanctions on Russia

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Mar 2014 08:38

Pratyush wrote:Who was it who said, that Russia is never as strong as it appears to be. But it is never as weak as it appears to be as well.

I think this quote can apply to almost all countries/orgs in the world. Thats why, I think success and failures are coincidents or accidents in many cases.

ramana wrote:Present day China is a US munna and can and will sabotage any grouping.

The thing with all munnas seem to be that they are fair-weather friends. They will desert the moment things get tough and find someone else to suck up to.

Coming to Cheen, I think they are just playing both sides.

ramana wrote:I think the grand mandrins of US policy want a revivial of a new Cold War. I heard a cacophony of experts on NPR and all were invoking images of Cold War to describe the curretn situation when its hardly that. I think the West's economic revival is floundering and they need a war economy to revive it.

Ramana gaaru,
This is not a rhetorical question, but a genuine one: how does cold war help revive the economy?

I can understand a hot war helping the economy because many good and services are needed/spent in the war which can revive the economy. But, how does a cold war help? Does cold war also consume many goods and services?

Philip wrote: What if...Putin raises the price of gas to Europe instead of stopping it as threatened in retaliation for sanctions?

I think the bigger threat is if Roos starts accepting other currencies to sell gas.

Austin wrote:German chancellor against imposition of economic sanctions on Russia

johneeG wrote:This coup in Ukraine seems like just a redux of Crimean war in 1850s i.e. to stop the Russian expansion in eastern europe. And there is also a orthodox vs other x-ist denominations. The only difference seems to be that in 1850s, western oirope won the Crimean war. This time, they seem to have lost in their objective.

Going forward, I think there will be greater co-operation and coming together of Germany and Russia to counter Anglo-Saxon-Frank-Jewish-Saudi alliance. China may play both sides.

Link to post

I think, in history, whenever, the Germans and Russians fight, the Anglo-Saxon-Frank gain. Whenever, the germans and russians unite, Anglo-Saxon-Frank are threatened/undermined.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2014 09:16

US Defense Secretary says Russia should guarantee will not invade Ukraine

Chuck Hagel recalled his conversation last week with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, whom he asked why Russia deploying its Army units along its Western border

WASHINGTON, March 26, /ITAR-TASS/. Russia should provide guarantees of an absence of plans to invade Ukraine, U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said Wednesday after talks with British Secretary of State for Defense Philip Hammond.

He recalled his conversation last week with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, whom he asked why Russia deploying its Army units along its Western border. Shoigu assured him that the Russian military had no plans to cross the border with Ukraine.

However, reality is such that the buildup of the numeric strength of Russian troops along country’s western border continues and the Russians should give more guarantees that they are still committed to the assurances given by Shoigu.

Hagel and Shoigu discussed the situation in and around Ukraine by telephone March 20, with the Pentagon’s official spokesman, Rear Admiral John Kirby saying it lasted about an hour.

Kirby said Hagel had mentioned the issue of Russian troops deployed nearby the Russian-Ukrainian border but Shoigu said in response the troops had been deployed other only for the period of military exercises and there were no plans or intensions on the part of military planners to cross the border.

Kirby described the conversation as a frank one and said Hagel had thanked Shoigu for giving so much time to it.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Mar 2014 10:07

panduranghari wrote:
ramana wrote:The post-East India Company Anglo-Saxons created a legal, international system under their control. using that they can manipulate the situation so they benefit. Germans, Imperial Japanese, Indians, Soviet all suffered.
If one plays per the rules one will lose and they win. The only way out is to knock the chessboard.

Crimea is an example of how to knock the chessboard.
The French and Germans have already set up the sword on which the post EIC Anglo Saxon block will fall and die.

link

France is still in the Atlanticist lobby. they won't abandon that project. if they do, they will be nowhere wrt Germany and Russia. it is the old game ever since Bismarck defeated the French. it continues even now.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Mar 2014 10:13

ramana wrote:I think the grand mandrins of US policy want a revivial of a new Cold War. I heard a cacophony of experts on NPR and all were invoking images of Cold War to describe the curretn situation when its hardly that. I think the West's economic revival is floundering and they need a war economy to revive it.

I can attest to the bold part. similar sentiments are widespread within Defence-allied or DOD-funded contractor and subcontractor organizations.

the Defense cuts are hurting. manufacturing has been outsourced to Asia anyway. but profit margins are facing a lot of heat again. the "stimulus" effect is gone. the profit outlook for 2014 is not good.

at the same time there is a big push for "diversification", i.e. reducing dependence on American Defense spending >> "new markets" in Asia.
pressure on India to keep buying Khan defense goods will grow.

things are headed for some type of "conflict".

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 27 Mar 2014 11:22

I think this is the beginning of the end of NATO. At least a small step in that direction.
Europeans need to have an appetite to have a conflict near their borders. Reality is, they cannot afford to. No other country can influence that appetite than Germany. And Germany is a export economy and they need markets. And they need gas after shooting themselves in the foot with nuclear.
Merkel speaks Russian and has a working relationship with Putin. Gas for infratructure,cars where companies like Siemens, BMW cab benefit in Russia. Germany should have very good reasons to break this off to please the Amreekis.
Also , let us not forget that in the recent NSA scandal, top bureucrats and Merkel were victimes and the meeting of intelligence personnel from both sides was not that sucessfull.
That message from germany is clear - they do not want a conflict. they have more to lose.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 27 Mar 2014 11:51

Merkel talked tough to prove to the world that she is far removed from her East German roots. Now that the drama is over and with the Bear threatening oil supply disruptions, reality dawned on her and now there are calls for preventing economic sanctions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2014 12:02

Austin wrote:US Defense Secretary says Russia should guarantee will not invade Ukraine

A good compromise will be for NATO and Russia to agree to no further NATO expansion in Ukraine and Georgia and in return getting a legally binding deal with Russia to no expansion of Russia in Ukraine or Georgia or else where.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2014 12:15

as of today USA defence spending is more than the next 20 combined.
euro defence industries are floundering because USA matches or outperforms them at high end and undercuts them at low end with cheaper hand-me-downs MLU/boneyard starter kit.
they are being kept alive on drip feed govt subsidy....

I am sure cheen is sniffing around for good deals on manpower to work as "consultants".

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Mar 2014 12:56

A good compromise will be for NATO and Russia to agree to no further NATO expansion in Ukraine and Georgia and in return getting a legally binding deal with Russia to no expansion of Russia in Ukraine or Georgia or else where.

The West and Russia and sit and do all the baboo giri they want and sign agreements. But I do think that the developments within Ukraine will not make them worth the paper the agreements are written on.

Samuel Huntington in his "Clash of Civilisations" was prescient on Ukraine, which he identified as the classic "Cleft State" , with the wester, Catholic part in a perpetual jihad /clash of values with the eastern mixed Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox part. With the western part tugging towards Europe and the Eastern part towards Russia, it will be a miracle if Ukraine can survive in it's current state as a united state.

With the impending economic pain due to IMF directed reforms and the convulsions in it's wake, the eastern part is going to have very little tolerance of that pain. Yanukovich decided against the EU agreement for good reasons. The agricultural western part is all for it, they will benefit from higher produce prices in the EU and the ability to move west to work in menial jobs in Germany etc, rather than what they do in Russia. But the eastern part will be de industrialised and ground to dust. Those guys in the east and their industry ,with markets in Russia and elsewhere will be wiped out. They will simply separate from Ukraine if that were to happen. No way the eastern industry can find markets in the west , without Russia, esp the armaments based ones.

The only thing left, is will Ukraine have a Czechosolvak type divorce or a messy Yugoslavia type one. My money from all the rhetoric and everything will be a Yugoslav type one. The US will ensure that it is a messy bloody one, with guerrilla /partisan warfare erupting in all the mixed regions , resulting in a final ethnic cleansing. That kind of thing will be tragic for sure, considering how mixed the Russians and Ukranians generally are. But the US couldn't give a damn. It is some one else's blood being spilt and families rendered asunder, why the "gain" if any is for the US. That is how they operated historically. With the costs on the Ukranians, and the gains on the US and UK, there is no way this option is not going to be exercised.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2014 13:10

I hope not that is the case , We already have enough bloodshed in Kosovo and any ethnic tension in Ukraine will easily spiral into Europe/Russia as it borders both and might also escalate into unintentional conflict with NATO/Russia etc.

The only thing to watch out in coming months and years is how long is the IMF reform is sustainable without even the West Population revolting against it .....things like increasing Gas price by 50 % and reducing pension would not go well amongst all

As per leaked document of IMF Reform Draft Proposed for Ukraine .....the finer points are

1. Raising of pension age by 2 years for men, 3 years for women. Cancellation of the right for qualification for early pensions and the principle of counting 1 year for 2 in dangerous professions.

2. Liquidation of the institute for special pension allowances, which are specified for scientists, government workers, managers of state enterprises. Put restrictions on pensions for working pensioners. Set the retirement age for military officers to 60 years.

3. Increase the gas prices for municipal businesses by 50%, and increase the prices two-fold for household users. Increase electricity prices by 40%. Allow municipal utilities to set their own prices. Allow the gas price to be raised in correspondence to the international rise in gas prices. Increase the excise on petrol by 60 euros.

4. Cancel benefits and raise prices on public transport by 50%. While not raising the minimum cost of living, balance the social situation through the use of point subsidies.

5. Privatize all mines and retract all subsidies. Cancel benefits for municipal utilities, transport companies and others. Cancellation of state support for childbirth, free meals and textbooks.

6. Restrict the practice of simplified taxation. Cancel VAT exemptions in rural districts. Oblige pharmacies to pay VAT.

7. Cancel the moratorium on the sale of agricultural land. Cancel subsidies for pig and chicken farming.

8. Reduce the amount of ministers to 14. Leave only one vice-minister. Cancel the position of minister of the cabinet of ministers. Liquidate 6 ministries. Subordinate all state services to ministers. Tax administration, customs service and the state property fund must all become part of the finance ministry.

9. Restrict excessive salaries for public officials

10. Unemployment benefits are only to be assessed after a minimum period of 6 months of employment. Sick pay should be set at 70% of one's salary, but not lower than the minimum wage. Sick pay will only be paid starting from the 3rd day of sick leave.