Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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panduranghari
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by panduranghari »

devesh wrote: France is still in the Atlanticist lobby. they won't abandon that project. if they do, they will be nowhere wrt Germany and Russia. it is the old game ever since Bismarck defeated the French. it continues even now.
May be. Or may be because they do not want to annoy a super power. Or may be, because they do not want to overtly be held responsible for consequences of actions that the Anglo Saxon block which the Anglo Saxon bloc have brought upon themselves.

One of the main architects of Euro was Jaques Rueff. During the Great Depression, Rueff was a major figure in the management of the French economy and was a key economic advisor to French President Charles de Gaulle. The 1958 "Rueff Plan" balanced the French budget and secured the convertibility of the French currency. He encouraged de Gaulle to withdraw from London gold pool. Some how, no action seems unrelated.

From Wiki:
Rueff was highly critical of the use of the dollar as a unit of reserve, which he warned would cause a worldwide inflation. He was strongly in favor of European integration, and always remained a firm opponent of Lord Keynes' ideas. In 1947, Rueff critiqued Keynes' magnum opus, The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. After his critique of Keynes, Rueff's main critic became James Tobin, a Keynesian economist who would later serve as an advisor to both the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury where he would help design the American Keynesian economic policy during the Kennedy administration.

It is somehow fitting that Rueff's archnemesis, Tobin, would be best remembered for his 1972 suggestion of the "Tobin Tax", a tax on the exchange of foreign currencies in response to Nixon ending Bretton Woods.

When IMF was created in 1922 and they formulated the "gold exchange standard", Rueff said it was "a conception so peculiarly Anglo-Saxon that there still is no French expression for it."

I do not think French are in the Anglo Saxon camp.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Appears that after failing to forewarn on Crimea ......US Intel is now taking no chances :D

U.S. intel assessment: greater likelihood Russia will enter eastern Ukraine
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Sonugn »

American regime needs to stop war mongering. The butt hurt displayed at colossal failure of the color revolution is astronomical. They need to understand that the Crimean peoples decision to join Russia cannot be rolled back. Regime and its right wing war mongering supporters needs to move on and learn to live in peacefully with the rest of the world. Meanwhile America needs to introspect its own history of invading 70 countries since 1776.

Invading countries, dropping nuclear weapons, their own constipated cops shooting innocent civilians,the list goes on.

Obama regime needs to behave responsibly.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

A rare s sane Western voice!

Russia’s actions in Crimea ‘completely understandable’ – German ex-chancellor
Published time: March 26, 2014
http://rt.com/news/schmidt-crimea-russia-germany-465/
Moscow’s actions in the Crimea are comprehensible, former German chancellor, Helmut Schmidt said, criticizing the Western reaction to the peninsula’s reunification with Russia.

President Vladimir Putin’s approach to the Crimean issue is “completely understandable,” Schmidt wrote in Die Zeit newspaper where he’s employed as an editor.

While the sanctions, which target individual Russian politician
s and businessmen, employed by the EU and the US against Russia are “a stupid idea,” he added.

The current restrictive measures are of symbolic nature, but if more serious economic sanctions are introduced “they’ll hit the West as hard as Russia,” Schmidt warned.

He also believes that the refusal of the Western countries to cooperate with Russia in the framework of the G8 is a wrong decision.

“It would’ve been ideal to get together now. It would certainly do a lot more to promotion of peace than the threats of sanctions,” the ex-chancellor explained.

But the G8 itself isn’t that as important as the G20, in which Russia remains a member, he added.

According to Schmidt, the situation in Ukraine is “dangerous because the West is terribly upset” and it’s “agitation” leads to “corresponding agitation among Russian public opinion and political circles.

The ex-chancellor refused to speculate of the possibility of Russian troop deployment to eastern parts of Ukraine, but added that the West “shouldn’t fuel Russia’s appetites.”

Schmidt executed the duties of chancellor of West Germany in 1974-82, also working as the country’s finance, economy and defense minister.

Crimea and the city of Sevastopol were officially accepted into the Russian Federation on March 21, with president Putin signing a relevant decree.

The peninsula’s withdrawal from Ukraine was triggered by an armed ultra-nationalist coup in Kiev, which saw country’s president Viktor Yanukovich ousted.

After the law allowing regions to give Russian and other minority languages the status of a second official language was revoked by the new parliament, Crimea – home to an ethnic Russian majority – has held a referendum on its future as part of Ukraine. On March 16, over 96 percent of Crimean voters decided to cut ties with Kiev and rejoin Russia.

The US and its EU allies were outraged by the move and replied with individual sanctions against Russia’s top politicians and businessmen. The blacklisted Russian citizens are banned from travelling to US and EU, with their American and European assets frozen.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Cant believe CNN on this , Calls the Dead Right Wing Guy "Robin Hood" and claims Russia could be responsible for this even though Ukraine Interior Minister mentions he was killed in their raid :lol:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world ... ?hpt=hp_t2
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Golden Words by Obama

“We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.“

Obama says Iraq invasion 'not as bad as Crimea'. Wait... what?
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Just a gentle reminder to POTUS .....Second Iraq war only killed half a million people and till date every day 40 people die due to terrorism ......rest all is fine and rosy

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24547256

About half a million people died in Iraq as a result of war-related causes between the US-led invasion in 2003 and mid-2011, an academic study suggests.

Cost the US more than $2 trillion .....more details on Iraq War Cost

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... PG20130314
panduranghari
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by panduranghari »

Austin wrote:Golden Words by Obama

“We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.“

Obama says Iraq invasion 'not as bad as Crimea'. Wait... what?
I doubt he believes his own words. Do Umricans take this moron seriously anymore?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Aren't you being unfair? "We left" Iraq with many fewer people too (3 million?) esp. children, and huge opportunites for "reconstruction". The potential can only be described as "explosive".
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Post Visa ban , they are creating their own payment system ....didnt knew China and Japan had it already

Russia will create national payment-processing system; Japan, China are examples - Putin

Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Thursday that a national payment system similar to those of Japan and China would be created.
"These systems work in country's like Japan and China, and they work very well. At first they worked like national, circulating in their own markets on their own territory, for their citizens, and now they are becoming very popular," Putin said during a meeting with members of the upper house of parliament.

He said the Japanese system, which began as a national one, now operates in 200 countries.

"Why don't we do that? We have to do this and we will do this," the president said.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

panduranghari wrote:
Austin wrote:Golden Words by Obama

“We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.“

Obama says Iraq invasion 'not as bad as Crimea'. Wait... what?
I doubt he believes his own words. Do Umricans take this moron seriously anymore?
Obama Foreign Policy has been a disaster be it Libya ( Bengazi incident ) , Syria , Israel-Palestanian or Ukraine ..... but to his credit he withdrew from two wars i.e Iraq and Afghanistan that Bush had planned and executed.

he is loosing popularity though

Obama’s rating hits new low over Ukraine
Overall disapproval Obama’s most recent actions reached to 59 percent — a record high for his presidency, a new Associated Press-GfK poll released on Wednesday suggests.

Only 40 percent people approve of his approach to international issues, namely his stance on the Ukraine reunification with Russia.

Majority say they dislike Obama's handling of the Ukraine situation (57 percent) and his interactions with Russia (54 percent). Obama also gets lowest marks for his approaches to the federal budget, immigration and the economy. Support for Obama's education policies, which had once been a strong point, dipped significantly this month, too.

Obama is seen approaching closer the former president George W. Bush’s disapproval rate, which stood at 72%, as recorded in the AP-GfK 2008 poll.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by anmol »

Using Germany's Ostpolitik for Crimea crisis
dw.de

The Crimean crisis has sparked many articles drawing historical parallels - and just as many warning against them. The weight of the centenary of the beginning of World War I seems to have engendered this historical perspective, implying the subliminal fear: "Is Europe about to come full circle?"

Yet at the same time, the most common comparison being made in the West are often with the beginning of World War II. Hillary Clinton has been roundly criticized by foreign policy analysts and historians for comparing Vladimir Putin's annexation of Crimea with Adolf Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in the 1930s, if only because, as Kathryn Stoner, Russia expert at Stanford University, told AP, "I don't think it's helpful on either side to say things like this."
That's because drawing simplistic comparisons is not the same as learning from history. In an article for Der Spiegel, Australian historian Christopher Clark compared the current stand-off between Putin and the West with a number of previous crises - including the run-up to World War I, the Crimean War of 1853, the Russian annexation of the eastern Ukraine after 1654, and even the English Civil War in the 1640s - and found similarities, and salient differences, in each.

Not sleepwalking

But Clark went on to make a more important point: even if the historical parallels are flawed, for the moment all sides seem to have drawn some useful lessons from history - perhaps even from his own book The Sleepwalkers. Published last year, this new history of the crisis that led to World War I described how the European powers trapped themselves in an escalating spiral in the summer of 1914. Clark noted approvingly in Der Spiegel, meanwhile, that the major players - European Commission President José Manuel Barroso, US President Barack Obama, and even Putin himself - have been careful to keep a diplomatic exit open.

Clark reserved particular praise for German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier for conceding that, as Clark puts it, he "had been too quick during the early days of the crisis to engage with the Ukrainian opposition and too slow to take account of the larger geopolitical issues that are entangled with the crisis." In other words, despite everything, Germany has been trying its best to keep in mind Putin's point-of-view - that Crimea represents one of Russia's most vital security interests.

Brought up on Ostpolitik

Part of the reason for this more cautious take could be Germany's tradition of Ostpolitik, the strategy of rapprochement employed by Chancellor Willy Brandt in the 1970s. The idea has since become so central to Brandt's Social Democratic Party it is what Liana Fix, of the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP), calls "part of its ideology." As Bettina Vestring points out in a DGAP blog-post, Steinmeier himself, now in his second stint as foreign minister, grew up with Ostpolitik.

To some extent, this has also spread to Germany's general public, who are instinctively sympathetic to Russia - one poll found that 54 percent of Germans think that the West should simply accept Putin's annexation of the Crimea. "I'm not quite sure where this comes from," said Fix. "There is an element of anti-Americanism, a reaction to Iraq, the NSA, and all these things. But there is also a feeling that Germany is in between and that we have to be the mediator."

At the same time, Steinmeier's pronouncements during recent visits to the Baltic states show that he is becoming disillusioned with Ostpolitik. There is a sense that, over the past few years Putin has simply grown incorrigible. "He is disillusioned, yes," Fix told DW. "I would say he's still the one who tries very hard to keep Putin on board. It was Merkel who wanted to exclude Russia from the G8 for the time being, which he vehemently fought."

Sabine Fischer, head of the Eastern Europe department of the German Institute for International and Security Affairs (SWP), agrees: "We've seen it really clearly, and not just since the Crimean crisis," she told DW. "Even when Steinmeier took office in December we saw him strike a significantly more critical note about Russia than in his first tenure as foreign minister."

A matter of perspective

This results in a strange double-view of Germany's handling of the Crimean crisis. Western commentators, especially liberal ones like the Guardian's Simon Jenkins, have been applauding Merkel's empathy for Putin, contrasting it with the saber-rattling of the US and the UK: "In contrast to the posturing and empty rhetoric in London and Washington is the calm voice of Germany's Angela Merkel," he wrote.

But as Fix points out, there is a contrary view in Germany: "In a European Union context Merkel is seen as being too cautious, especially by Poland and other partners, whereas in Germany Merkel is seen as being almost hawkish."


Earlier this month, Germany's Left party leader Gregor Gysi delivered a blistering condemnation of the chancellor in the Bundestag. "Obama spoke, like you, Mrs Chancellor, of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of nations, but these two principles were violated in Serbia, Iraq, and Libya," he said. "The West thought it could violate international law because the Cold War was over, but it grossly underestimated Chinese and Russian interests."

Gysi also had sharp words for the EU (and by extension Merkel), which, he said, contributed to the crisis in the first place: "Then there was the tug-of-war between the EU and Russia, with Ukraine in the middle. Both thought and acted the same. Barroso said Ukraine could EITHER have a customs union with Russia, OR contracts with us. He didn't say both. And Putin said EITHER contracts with the EU, OR with us. That was a devastating mistake on both sides."

Put like this, the current military escalation does sound a lot like the sleepwalking of July 1914 - Ostpolitik or no Ostpolitik.
'We haven't listened to the Russians'
dw.de | Nov 30th -0001

Ten years ago, in March 2004, several former members of the communist Warsaw Pact joined the Western military alliance NATO. With that new round of expansion - including the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania - NATO for the first time shared borders with Russia. Since the Cold War ended, the Western alliance has gained 12 new member states in Eastern Europe, so that it now has 28 members in total. For several years, Ukraine has also been expressing an interest in becoming a member. This policy changed in 2010 with the pro-Russian presidency of Viktor Yanukovych. DW spoke to Stefan Meister of the European Council on Foreign Relations about relations between NATO and Russia.

DW: How much has the enlargement of NATO determined the Crimean crisis?

Stefan Meister: I think it is one of the key factors. The first point is that the Russian Ukraine policy has failed. Russia has lost its influence on Ukraine. With Viktor Yanukovych it has lost its main partner in Kiev. This really caused alarm in the heads of the decision makers in the Kremlin: they felt that, with this development in Ukraine, they would eventually also lose Ukraine to NATO and then NATO really would be knocking on the gate.

With Russian disapproval of an expanding NATO, was the conflict over Crimea foreseeable?

It’s always difficult to say after the events that everything was clear before. But sure, with Putin's Munich speech in 2007 and with the discussion about a further NATO enlargement in Ukraine and Georgia in 2008, the Russian leadership has sent signals that this is the red line and that they will respond to this red line. They tried to respond in a soft power way in the last years and they have now understood that soft power is not sufficient, that Russia has no soft power. So they had to switch to hard power and took Crimea as a tool to influence Ukrainian policy. In this sense, we haven't listened to the Russian leadership. We have just ignored Putin in his speeches.

How does a constantly expanding NATO influence European-Russian relations?

For Russia, the EU is no security institution. What Russia really perceives is that there is a link between EU enlargement and NATO enlargement. And if one happens, the other will also happen. In this sense, a deeper integration of the EU is a threat to Russia. This has made it more difficult to cooperate with Russia and it has also increased Russian resistance against any EU rapprochement of the common neighborhood of post-Soviet states. The EU is more and more perceived as a competitor in the post-Soviet region because of this background of NATO enlargement and the security threat.

How big a role is Germany playing in the current conflict?

It is the main power in Europe and it is seen by Putin and the Russian leadership as the key player in Europe with whom to talk and with whom to maybe make a deal at some point. I wouldn’t overestimate the influence of Angela Merkel in German policy on Russia. But if someone has influence, if someone is heard in Moscow, then it is Berlin. There will be no tough sanctions, no common EU policy on the crisis without Germany.

Stefan Meister is a Senior Policy Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. He has published extensively on EU-Russian relations and has been an election observer for the OSCE on several occasions.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

UN Gen Assembly adopts resolution backing Ukraine's territorial integrity
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-russia-crime ... ution-609/

One hundred UN member countries voted in favor of the resolution, while 11 voted against and 58 abstained. The resolution is non-binding. Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, North Korea, Nicaragua, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela and Zimbabwe were the nations, which said ‘no’ the UN resolution.

India , China , Pakistan and many other have abstained

Image
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

I think Russiophiles will like this personal insight into Putin, interacting with his former teacher during a visit to Israel in 2005.

In Tel Aviv, Putin's German teacher recalls 'disciplined' student
As Vladimir Putin has become a man widely viewed as the world's most high-profile bully for his takeover of Crimea, one elderly Tel Aviv woman – a native of Ukraine – is thankful for the generosity of the Russian president she remembers as a teenager, when he was her "disciplined" student of German.

Mina Yuditskaya Berliner, 93, knew Putin when he was a 15-year-old boy studying German at St. Petersburg's High School 281.

"He was disciplined and wasn't a chatterbox," Yuditskaya Berliner told Ynet in an interview at the Tel Aviv apartment she says Putin bought her. Putin, she recalled, was a quiet and serious student who missed some classes because of his wrestling training but still knew the answers to the questions.
Yuditskaya Berliner, who was born in the Ukrainian city of Mena in 1921, renewed her relationship with Putin after she recognized him on TV in the late 1990s. When he visited Israel in April 2005, she told the Russian Consulate in Tel Aviv that she wanted to meet him.

After moving to Israel in 1973, because, she said, she had had enough of the suspicion, terror and fear of the Soviet regime, Yuditskaya Berliner worked at the Israel Air Force, but refused to provide details about her work there.

When she and Putin met at the David Citadel Hotel in Jerusalem, a meeting the Russian Embassy in Israel confirmed to Ynet, Yuditskaya Berliner sat across the table from Putin, after which he invited her to another room for tea. "While walking, he told me: 'I've gone bald already,'" she told Ynet. "And I responded, 'I see.'"

Shortly afterward, said Putin's former teacher, she received gifts – an inscribed watch, Putin's autobiography and, finally, the choice of one of two apartments in Tel Aviv. She chose the smaller one, saying she just needed to close to the bus stop, the health clinic and the market.

She said she didn't know why Putin bought her an apartment, but was very thankful for it
. "Putin is a very grateful and decent person," she said. Yuditskaya Berliner hasn't been in touch with her former student recently, though, saying, "Now he's too busy."
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

to his credit he withdrew from two wars i.e Iraq and Afghanistan that Bush had planned and executed.
U r 222222 generous, hain? At least in A'stan, his "withdrawal" is the same as U withdrawal from South Vietnam. He is leaving A'stan to the Pakis and throwing all the ppl who sided with the US, to the Talibs. Invest in swords/axes: there is going to be a huge demand in Kabul and Kandahar when the Pakiban take over again. No wonder Karzai is not on speaking terms with American diplomats any more. The SD Einsteins kept undermining Karzai for "corruption" (an unheard-of thing in DupleeCity) while the Pakis steadily gained ground.

The same "logic" and intelligence and historical perspective pervade the BO SD's treatment of the Ukraine situation - AND the Libya/Syria/Egypt situations. Only Algeria and Tunisia seem to not (yet) have regressed too much: probably because See Enn Enn can't read Frogistani.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

still knew the answers to the questions.
So he knows at least Russian, English and German.
I am waiting to be amazed by BO's grasp of Russian - or German.
Ich bin ein Hamburger!
:shock:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Multatuli »

Vina that was a perceptive post.

Many in the west would like Russia to be drawn into a war in the Ukraine (sort of like Chechnya and Afghanistan) and make them bleed there.

Neela, as for the end of NATO: I don't think that is going to happen. Think of NATO as a Union of Criminal Countries, it gives them collective bullying power. And there is no way they are going to abandon it.

panduranghari: Here again the above applies, both France and Germany benefit from the present financial/monetary system, even though not as much as the US/UK/Dutch, still, it's much better for them then a new financial/monetary/economic order where China, India, Russia, Brazil and others claim their rightful position.

Don't read too much in the occasional "independent position" the French and Germans take, this is just a jostling for power within the Union of Criminal Countries.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

UlanBatori wrote:
still knew the answers to the questions.
So he knows at least Russian, English and German.
I am waiting to be amazed by BO's grasp of Russian - or German.
Ich bin ein Hamburger!
:shock:
Supposedly when Angela Merkel and Putin talk, they switch between German (which he knows and polished up during his long stint as a KGB agent in then East Germany) and Russian, which she is fluent in, having grown up in Soviet dominated East Germany.

Truly Hamburger!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Multatuli »

Philip wrote

A rare s sane Western voice!

Russia’s actions in Crimea ‘completely understandable’ – German ex-chancellor
http://rt.com/news/schmidt-crimea-russia-germany-465/

Helmut Schmidt is an intellectual giant, he could lift the likes of Obama, David Cameron, Merkel and Hollande with his little finger.
Austin wrote:

Golden Words by Obama

“We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.
http://rt.com/news/obama-crimea-iraq-invasion-565/

The arrogance and hot gas coming out of Obama's musharraf is just sickening!

I thought that being half African American would make hime more reasonable, humane and certainly more humble in outlook but I doubt if a gora could be more obnoxious.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Barack Obama: no cold war over Crimea
US president insists military solution not an option, saying pressure and diplomacy are the way forward in Crimea dispute
Has O'Bumbler got Cold Feet?! He seems to be scared sh*tless of Vlad-the-Bad Ras-Putin,the evil reincarnation of Russian imperialism if you believe O'Bumbler's fractured Russian fairy tale. Cold Feet seems to be the disiease afflicting O'Bumbler these days,once known as O'Bomber,from his unrelenting drone strikes ,who "floated like a Butterfly and stung like a B-52"!

It began when he got cold feet over Syria,where he chickened out dropping even one little miniscule firework on Damascus,showing the world that his holster was empty and he was sitting backwards in the saddle ,beating the retreat from every hotspot worldwide.sabre rattling from the safety of the Oval Office is his wont today,his reputation in tatters ,a lame duck pres. if ever there was one.

Obama says 'bigger nations cannot simply bully smaller ones'. Wait... what?
Published time: March 27, 2014 10:03
President Obama's key speech in Brussels on Ukraine and attempts to isolate Russia appears to be an exercise of omission, mutually-exclusive statements and unveiled double standards.

Here's a quick look at what Obama told an audience of some 2,000 people in his damning 30-minute speech.
“Each of us has the right to live as we choose.”

But it's true only for those good pro-European protesters in Kiev, who used firebombs and batons to make their point. The bad pro-Russian residents of Crimea are not allowed to, right?

A man prepares to cast his ballot during the referendum on the status of Ukraine's Crimea region at a polling station in Simferopol March 16, 2014 (Reuters / Vasily Fedosenko)

A man prepares to cast his ballot during the referendum on the status of Ukraine's Crimea region at a polling station in Simferopol March 16, 2014 (Reuters / Vasily Fedosenko)
“Together, we’ve condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and rejected the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum.”

That's right. Referendum = bad. Firebombs = good.

Well, Obama says Russia invaded Ukraine while the US and the EU stayed at arm's length and allowed things to settle down.
“Make no mistake, neither the United States nor Europe has any interest in controlling Ukraine.”

And they absolutely didn't send troves of officials to Kiev to cheer up anti-government protesters. And when Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland discussed with Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt who should and who shouldn’t be in the next Ukrainian government, that was merely small talk between two observing diplomats.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland (R) and U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt (2nd R) distribute bread to riot police near Independence square in Kiev December 11, 2013 (Reuters / Andrew Kravchenko)

When it comes to invasions, President Obama has a lesson or two to teach Russians.
“We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people in a fully sovereign Iraqi state that can make decisions about its own future.“

This sovereign nation has only token sovereignty over Kurd territories in the north. Terrorists roam free in some rural areas and want to carve an Islamist state of it. And deaths from car bombs are more frequent then deaths from car accidents. A decade of statecraft later, at least 7,800 civilians and 1,000 troops killed in 2013 alone. Mission accomplished.

Obama mentioned another interventionist success story in his speech, that of Kosovo.
“NATO only intervened after the people of Kosovo were systematically brutalized and killed for years.”

Good point. Of course the alliance didn't bother to get a UN Security Council mandate and bombed the Serbian capital, killing hundreds of civilians in the process, in violation of international law. The same law which Obama accuses Russia of violating with Crimea. But that was even before Bush Jr., so who cares?

The Yugoslav Army Headquarters building hasn't been rebuilt after being damaged by cruises missiles in April 1999 during NATO's bombing of Serbia over Kosovo. Belgrade
(AFP Photo)

“We are confronted with the belief among some that bigger nations can bully smaller ones to get their way — that recycled maxim that might somehow makes right.”

World's biggest bully preaching peace and love. And its flying killing robots are the messengers. And guards in secret CIA prisons are the keepers. And the NSA keeps an eye on those who won't listen.

As the Romans used to say, quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi (what is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull). Well, there are no gods sitting in Washington, and some people just don't want to be treated as cattle.
“Kosovo only left Serbia after a referendum was organized – not outside the boundaries of international law but in careful cooperation with the United Nations, and with Kosovo’s neighbors.”

That’s Mr. Obama’s version. What really happened was that Kosovo’s parliament unilaterally declared independence from Serbia and later adopted a constitution on Feb. 15, 2008. On the same day, the US and four European states recognized Kosovo as an independent country.

Ah, right, the referendum. Maybe President Obama meant that illegal 1991 referendum, whose results were recognized by only one country, Albania?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Shreeman »

In learning statecraft quoth:
UlanBatori wrote:Ich bin ein Hamburger!
:shock:

whereupon spake:
shreeman etc wrote:Ich bin kein Hamburger!
neither, echoing the sentiment. We next raise our own conspiracies from that bastion of intellectual depth south of charkhi dadri -- the honorable president, being an outsiderish person having seen only the statecraft of chikaGo previously decided to annoint positions based on degrees or cash provided to champagne previously. The hope was the degrees will provide the merit, intellectual leadership, command respect. Misphortunatrely, the longer the list of degrees the bigger the phoney balloney IF they still want a government job! Who would have thunk! And neither group could work with the establishment on the hill. The presidency was lame fromday 1 in the first term. Now the orders go the other way, and the WH appears to be counting down the days to the opening of the presidential library in hawaii.

edits:sbellings.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

UlanBatori wrote:U r 222222 generous, hain? At least in A'stan, his "withdrawal" is the same as U withdrawal from South Vietnam. He is leaving A'stan to the Pakis and throwing all the ppl who sided with the US, to the Talibs. Invest in swords/axes: there is going to be a huge demand in Kabul and Kandahar when the Pakiban take over again. No wonder Karzai is not on speaking terms with American diplomats any more. The SD Einsteins kept undermining Karzai for "corruption" (an unheard-of thing in DupleeCity) while the Pakis steadily gained ground.

The same "logic" and intelligence and historical perspective pervade the BO SD's treatment of the Ukraine situation - AND the Libya/Syria/Egypt situations. Only Algeria and Tunisia seem to not (yet) have regressed too much: probably because See Enn Enn can't read Frogistani.
Well you see in the context of American People who got war fatigued with 2 wars then he did not pursued what Bush was doing ( the truth is Iraq war withdrawl was already planned by the end of Bush era , but there were also chorus of we would stay for 100 years in Iraq if required ) then he rolled back the war.

But seen in International and from Locals POV, he left a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan and a resurgent Al Quida in Iraq .... I am not counting the untold sufferings that Iraq and Afghanistan people suffer every day like mass bombing in Iraq or Drone Strike that kill more innocent than terrorist and is a ongoing affair with no end in sight.

All in All BO foreign policy has been broadly seen as unsuccessful ...but considering that Americans are so war fatigue they are happy he is not putting any boots on ground.
member_28502
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_28502 »

Ok when will the shooting war begin?
Like Asad when will Putin fall?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vic »

Inspite of so called withdrawal Obama has more troops in Aghanisatan currently, then Bush ever did. IIRC highest under Bush were 22,000 and at present there are 40,000 plus tens of thousands of contractors.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Nijalingappa wrote:Ok when will the shooting war begin?
Like Asad when will Putin fall?
Well atleast he will be the president till 2018 , he has the option to contest or let some one else from United Russia Party to contest.

Currently the only dominant party in Russia is United Russia , the 2nd distant one are the communist with 17 % of vote the others are far behind . You can check the 2012 result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_pr ... tion,_2012

Its some what similar to what we had for most of 50 years , with Congress being the leading party and the rest for most part just managed to come distant 2nd ......so who ever gets to be the PM it will be from Congress party only.

So who ever wins the election in next presidental election whether Putin is there or not he will be from United Russia party only likely.

The West hates the communist coming to power so even the 2nd largest party by Vote is a bad situation for them.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

Image

8)
member_28502
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_28502 »

Putin Playing Chess with one hand and Pocket Billiards with other!!
8) Wow
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Great photoshop work! Putin looks like a debonair grandmaster playing rapidfire chess to a clique of novices simultaneously !
Putin and co. must also be rolling with laughter as the IMF bailout of $18B is going to benefit.....Russian banks,to whom the Ukraine owes its everything!

In retrospect,it has been a brilliant masterstroke by Grand Master Putin,whose handling of the opening Crimean gambit was flawless.We are now in the middle game,or "muddle game" where the West is beached in the shallows.Putin has plucked the Crimea,the plum,strategically located in the Black Sea and traditional home to the Russian Navy,plus is being rewarded for his courageous and bold strike with money owed to it from a Bankrupt Ukraine,now being propped up economically by the West,relieving Russia of the responsibility! This chess game will be played over and over again by historians in the years to come as a classic example of blitzkrieg,gaining one's territorial goal without a host being fired and being rewarded in cash for it too!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... raine.html
Ukraine’s premier says country “on edge of economic and financial bankruptcy”, but will comply with demands for austerity
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by habal »

Nijalingappa wrote:Ok when will the shooting war begin?
Like Asad when will Putin fall?
Obama may fall first, if he begins to look like liability to his bosses.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Paul »

West can turn to their guru Brezenski and open up another front in Central Asia or Caucasus.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Pratyush »

What will happen if the West supported Ukraine defaults on the money owed to Russia. Can the Russians recover the money. What are the options available to them.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_28502 »

They cant admit Turkey into EU but itching to get Begging Ukraine into EU and NATO
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vishvak »

If I am not mistaken, the new regime aka Ukbapzis have accepted most of IMF/WB conditions post coup. Not sure of details but a few points:
-> 14-20 Billion$ deail/bailout
-> Ukraine bonds are upgraded to buy status
-> 2-year stand-by arrangement link
-> tough austerity measures (left unsaid)

There seem to be no big agreements with China on farm produce agreements with Ukraine.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

Pratyush wrote:What will happen if the West supported Ukraine defaults on the money owed to Russia. Can the Russians recover the money. What are the options available to them.
Russia can cite non payment of dues to stop Gas supply to Ukraine and that would essentially cut Russian Gas supply to the whole of Europe.

Sure that will hurt Russia too but me thinks Europe will have more to loose in the exchange.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

One austerity already announced is 50% hike in the price of Gas.

Ukraine wins IMF lifeline as Russia faces growth slump
Kiev opened the way for the IMF deal by announcing on Wednesday a radical 50-percent hike in the price of domestic gas from May 1 and promising to phase out remaining energy subsidies by 2016, an unpopular step Yanukovich had refused to take.

The prime minister, who took on the job a month ago saying his government was on a "kamikaze" mission to take painful decisions, said the price of Russian gas on which the nation depends may rise 79 percent - a recipe for popular discontent.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

No reasonable alternative to energy supplies from Russia to EU — German vice chancellor
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/725664
BERLIN, March 28. /ITAR-TASS/. The deliveries of natural gas from Russia to the European Union “have no reasonable alternative,” German Vice Chancellor, Minister of Economics and Energy Sigmar Gabriel said on Thursday evening at an energy forum in Osnabruck, organized by the Neue Osnabrucker Zeitung newspaper.

According to him, at discussions on Europe’s dependence on Russian natural gas and oil “it is often concluded that there are many other possibilities (for getting energy resources).” However, it is not so, stated the chairman of the German Social Democratic Party that is part of the government coalition in Germany.

Gabriel also warned against “panic sentiments”. “Even during the ‘cold war’ Russia had observed the concluded agreements,” the German vice chancellor stressed.

German Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel for her part called for “reducing the dependence” of the European Union from energy supplies from Russia. Talking to reporters in Berlin on Thursday after a meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper, she said that “the hole energy policy (of the European Union) will be reconsidered.”

The head of the German government said that it would be done because the EU is “highly” dependent on Russian oil and gas. And Germany’s dependence “has long been not the greatest anymore,” Merkel said.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

It would take around a decade for EU to reduce its Energy Dependencies on Russia ..by that time Russia too could reorient its energy supply to the Asian Market.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

Russian Buildup Stokes Worries
WASHINGTON—Russian troops massing near Ukraine are actively concealing their positions and establishing supply lines that could be used in a prolonged deployment, ratcheting up concerns that Moscow is preparing for another major incursion and not conducting exercises as it claims, U.S. officials said.

Such an incursion could take place without warning because Russia has already deployed the array of military forces needed for such an operation, say officials briefed on the latest U.S. intelligence.

..
The troop movements and the concealment—involving covering up equipment along the border—suggest Mr. Putin is positioning forces in the event he decides to quickly expand his takeover of the Crimea peninsula by seizing more Ukrainian territory, despite Western threats of tighter sanctions

..
"They are positioning logistics. That is necessary for the exercise but could also be used for further aggression if they choose to go," the senior military official said. "They have in place the capability, capacity and readiness they would need should they choose to conduct further aggression."

Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said Thursday that Russia has continued to send more troops to its border with Ukraine.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Based on my late (American) guru's firm belief that all wars incl. Vietnam are about oil, the tubelight has just gone on. :idea:
The purpose of the whole UkBapZi tamasha is to force a Russia/EU wall stopping Russian gas supplies to Oirope. This is because it is a lot cheaper to ship American oversupplies of natural gas (from the fracking bonanza) to Oirope than to Asia. Net effect will be a rise in market value of gas supplies.

The thing is, Siberian reserves of natural gas are mind-boggling: the stuff is literally bubbling up all over the Siberian tundra due to global warming, and the challenge is to put huge garbage bags over the tundra and tie it up into balloons, and just drag the balloons across to Dera Merkel Khan.

Lots of talks and papers coming up on The Coming Era of Plentiful Gas. Q.E.D.
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