Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2014 09:42

Yawn..just another day in the dog n pony show.

step1 - satellites detect 5000 debris, some as big as 20meters x 4meters
step2 - airplanes cannot see anything - low clouds and rain blamed
step3 - ships are driven out of area by 50 foot wave action
step4 - change search area depending on new findings on pings
goto step1

seldom have so many resources been linked to 5 pings.

let me also contribute 5 pings into the pot.

ping 12.34.5.21
Type escape sequence to abort.
Sending 5, 100-byte ICMP Echos to 12.34.5.21, timeout is 2 seconds:
!!!!!
Success rate is 100 percent (5/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 2/20/86 ms

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 28 Mar 2014 09:51

What if all the passengers and crew are in Guantanamo bay?

I forgot the name of the program (radio) but one marine biologist / scientist was saying that there near roaring forties was filled with all sorts of debris from ships, shores, .. he collected some plastic pools side chairs broken pieces tossed from Carnival type cruise ships floating...

Its important to find debris of te plane not just debris, als he said that average wave height is 15 feet in normal sea (in roaring 40s) and 30 feet is the norm for wave height. So everything really gets churned and what we see toda y may not be there as it goes down and then takes time to float (the same debris)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2014 11:19

The US Navy said it was sending a second P8 Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft to help in the search for the missing Boeing

the search area is eastern part of the indian ocean gyre, which is an area bounded by currents. lots of plastic and any form of debris tend to accumulate there. east pacific is another one, and so is the sargasso sea in atlantic. so no wonder 100s of objects are spotted daily. the currents will slowly move stuff to near australia, counter clockwise..so I guess thats why search area is shifted like that now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indian_Ocean_Gyre.png

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Mar 2014 13:42

speed change is due to ground speed, not airspeed
depending on the height the aircraft was at, the winds could be quite strong and make a significant difference to ground speed

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Mar 2014 16:24

The blane speed is now such that the blane was almost sonic. So with a slight error in Shift-ul-Dopplar and tailwinds and counting the hot air rising from Kuala Lumpur, they can decide that the blane was phlying subersonic. Downwards. So the field-e-debris will return home to Khalifa-e-Malaya. Q.e.D. (Quaid-e-Duh!)
This whole trajectory-plotting tamasha reminds me of the Mangolian Lie-rick that ended:

and instead of coming she went.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 28 Mar 2014 17:20

If you relax the constant altitude assumption then those equations are inadequate. Then I don't know how you make any claims about what the plane did.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 28 Mar 2014 17:20

This is looking like a dead end as far as narrowing the search area goes.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 28 Mar 2014 17:24

That 1 ppm is long term drift. What is the stability of the VCO at the 10 ns level?

I can correct the long term drift by periodically checking with a reference clock like the NIST signal. I can't fix the short term drift. Unless the short term drift is ~ 1Hz on a 1.5GHz carrier, I would not be comfortable with claiming that the shifts on the 50 Hz level are correct.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Mar 2014 18:26

In this advanced age of Network Centric Warfare,real time prosecution of ungodlies in Af-Pak,proliferation of highly advanced recce sats,whose cover has been lifted only for obsolete 25 yr. old models which at that time had a resolution of 60cm,it beggars the imagination that the MH flight,which was announced as missing hours into its journey,which also flew over the landmass and airspace of 3-4 countries could not have been detected,despite supposed regular "pinging".

Secondly,the truth of many elements of the incident have appeared to have been deliberately kept from public scrutiny by the Malaysians. Information has arrived in dribbles.The first wild goose chase was started in the Indo-China Sea.Then it slipped out softly that there was an "about turn" in the flight route,too acute for it to have been eqpt. error! Possible hijack or pilot intent.false passports of 2 Iranians,the sh*t hit the fan then! We were next told that the aircraft flew low to avoid radar and made some useful adjustments to prevent detection from the countries and airspace flown over.The next chase of the goose was the northern one ostensibly hiding below the Himalayas on to Central Asia. Cell phones kept ringing,had the plane landed somewhere? Then the broad hint that a southern route was possible,coinciding with the tale of an aircraft flying low was spotted over the Maldives early morning,which would've fitted in with the timing of the MH flight.

Sats spot debris,of course two weeks later when there has been enough time to clean up the act all round and for the aircraft to have been flown into the south IOR,remains of the day to be found later by a multi-national S&R effort.But the Chinese don't buy it,accuse the Malaysians of holding back on vital info,question sat data and demand it to be handed over,while we are now told that the cargo manifest has not been released.The Thais now say,3 weeks on,that their radar spotted the aircraft,but that it wasn't important enough to bother about! The amazing failure of military radars of the Malaysians,Thais,Indonesians,Americans at DG,Maldivians,and our own radar in the A&N islands,switched off at night to save costs, is inexplicable. Even the Japanese invaders at Pearl were spotted but wrongly identified by those ancient WW2 pieces of eqpt.almost 70 years ago!

More sats have now got into the picture and "credible evidence" that the debris spotted is from the MH flight,is forcing search teams into days of useless wasted activity looking for the same.If one plots a 3 week drift in the IOR the area of search,that too by aircraft with little time on station,as has been proven for the Orions,P-8s,etc. The Chinese IL-76s have the most endurance.A curious thought has struck me.Akin to "why the dog did not bark in the night".Why has no one asked the IN for the use of its TU-142 Bears ,conveniently stationed at Arkonam too,to look for the debris? That aircraft can fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling,and has massive endurance on station unmatched by any other type in service.

Alien abduction appears to be a more realistic explanation than the drivel spouted out by the authorities thus far. When the "tooth will out" is anybody's guess.Until then it is going to be a vrey,very,painful experience for the relatives and loved ones.

Eventually something will be found,in the sea or washed up on a beach,like the eqpt. in the Malldives.Why that hasn't been investigated enough is anyone's guess.

MH370: 'multiple objects' spotted in new search zone – live updates
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... -australia

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Mar 2014 19:22

P8I going to Perth, C-130J back to India

SUBANG:India's Malaysia-based search operations for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 ended when an Indian Air Force plane left Malaysia at about 4.45pm Friday, with another due to join a multinational search in Perth, Australia.

The C-130J Super Hercules was one of two aircraft sent by the Indian Government on March 21 to help in the search after it was confirmed missing in the southern Indian Ocean.

The other, an Indian Navy P8-I Poseidon, is expected to depart Saturday for Perth, Australia to join a multinational search force there.

Indian High Commissioner to Malaysia TS Tirumurti thanked Malaysia for its support, in particular the Royal Malaysian Air Force, during their time here.

"I would like to convey the thanks and gratitude for all the assistance and cooperation which we have received from the Malaysian Government," he said at the Subang Royal Malaysian Air Force base Friday afternoon.

He said India had been working with Malaysia to find MH370 since March 11, adding that the latter faced an unprecedented task in looking for the missing plane.

India's two planes took part in one 10-hour sortie covering a section of the South Indian Ocean on March 23.

The Indian C130J will land in Fort Blair, the Andaman Islands later Friday.

These aircraft were later grounded after receiving warnings of severe weather from tropical Cyclone Gillian from Malaysia's Meteorological Department.

Tirumurthi said that the Poseidon was likely to be sent to the Pearce air base in Perth after its role was assessed by Australia, Malaysia and India, adding that this might happen "anytime soon".

Subang RMAF base commander Brig Gen Abdul Manaf Md Zaid thanked the Indian military for its help, adding that it would lead to a better friendship between the armed forces of both nations.

He hoped that the 36 Indian servicemen here would return to Malaysia one day and enjoy it as a holiday destination.

As the press conference was underway, those present received a report that a fellow C130J Super Hercules supposedly crashed in Mahdya Pradesh, India.

Upon confirming this, some of them became emotional, and were moved to tears.

"Everyone in the Indian Air Force... they are colleagues," said an Indian military officer who declined to be named.

Aside from the Indians, only one foreign aircraft remains; a Chinese Y-8 awaiting further instructions from its Government.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Mar 2014 19:31

^^^From Philip's link:

The sheer volume of potentially misleading satellite imagery of possible objects in the southern Indian Ocean could be hampering the search, according to a leading oceanographer.

Dr. Simon Boxall from the University of Southampton, also cast doubt on the "objects" claimed to have been spotted in some of the recently released satellite images.

In an email to my colleague Louis Degenhardt, he said:

The burgeoning number of prospective satellite sightings could now detract from the main search objectives, to locate (any) confirmed surface debris from a Boeing 777.

Take the Thai image as a good example which supposedly shows several hundred "targets" in a small area. As someone who has analysed optical images of the oceans for many years, all but two to three of these objects are likely to be sea-foam and wave breaking.

This image was taken at a time of high winds and the pattern is consistent with hundreds I've seen over the years. It is also important to emphasise that the ocean is sadly full of debris from many sources which moves rapidly in this region of fast flowing and complex currents.

The fact that no confirmed sightings have been made from aircraft or ships in the original area lends support to a shift in focus.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 28 Mar 2014 22:13

The joke which ends with (TM Upper mangolians)

Then why are you searching here?

Are you blind or wha? Can't you this is where the light is?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Mar 2014 23:00

I find it hard to believe it could have come this close to land and intense boating activity and not had anyone spot it or debris. There is not a spot they don't look 1000 km apart but they immediately find debris. Compared to the ocean it is a small aircraft, there won't be much debris and what debris there is will be widely scattered now and isolated now.

There is no debris field anymore. Certainly not after 2-3 days.

I'm talking hundreds of kms apart. Something that sticks up 2 cm higher than something else will be a hundred km away by now. What they should do is create a drag net and examine every piece of debris they find. Out of 10,000 pieces one maybe from the aircraft.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2014 00:59

P'raps it's some of the debris from Fukushima,much of which washed up on American shores!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 29 Mar 2014 01:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:I find it hard to believe it could have come this close to land and intense boating activity and not had anyone spot it or debris. There is not a spot they don't look 1000 km apart but they immediately find debris. Compared to the ocean it is a small aircraft, there won't be much debris and what debris there is will be widely scattered now and isolated now.

There is no debris field anymore. Certainly not after 2-3 days.

I'm talking hundreds of kms apart. Something that sticks up 2 cm higher than something else will be a hundred km away by now. What they should do is create a drag net and examine every piece of debris they find. Out of 10,000 pieces one maybe from the aircraft.

Exactly, the currents that one sees on the maps are gigantic in scale. The map can be considered to represent a 'stochastic average' (since we are throwing a lot of terms around in this thread

), which means there might be local variations to the current everywhere you look. And as anyone who has sailed a bit will tell you :- the sea is very 'fractal'. What this means is, if a piece is slightly differently impacted by a local current it would end up 100s of miles away in a matter of few days than a piece that is not impacted by it. The definition of chaos.

The flight crashed like 2 - 3 weeks ago == the debris would be all over. And we are looking for parts of an object that can fit in an area of 70 sqr.mtr in a rough area of ocean that is 100,000 sq. km. That area has two currents meeting (around 40 degree south).

I feel sorry for the passengers (RIP) and their relatives who have to live with this. I will never wish this upon my worst enemies (including Bakis).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2014 05:25

I realize that it is storm season there, but if the weather is good enough to fly in an airplane and see down, is it also not "ok" to send helicopters? If they spot objects, a helicopter should be able to go at least identify the object if it is within a 100 or 200 mile radius, hain? Some of those ships are shown as helicopter carriers - these days most frigates and destroyers carry helicopters. Wonder where the Australian Navy is, while all these foreigners from far-off nations prowl off their shores. The Aus. Navy has considerable expertise in helicopter operations in rough weather, I know. These stories of the search are strangely devoid of answers to several basic common-sense questions.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Mar 2014 06:03

This late in the search story, monkeys are writing sheikh zubaire. In fact, I understand this thread appears very high in the intelligence gathering for where to look because of the "buzz". Afterall, why should people interested in local affairs of a regional power have the most active, unheard of, activity on MH370.

In fact, the formation of a new hacking group (acronymed UBCTs Inc, and modeled on anpnymous -- except that the hackers wear a lungi instead of a guy fawkes mask) is not a mere coincidence! Hackers have predicted the course of the search on an obscure forum well on advance of prime ministers of three world powers having been informed. It may not be a stretch given that UBCTs hindu nationalist sympathies have long been known, and Malaysia iis a deeply religious muslim country.

Boeing aircraft have suffered numerous failures since the economic destruction of 2008. While produced in large numbers and used by most NATO countries, the ancient boeing design is known to be maintenance intensive. This was the third serious malfunction in this model in the past twelve months killing nearly 300 people.

Boeing is struggling to replace the 777 with its newer model 787 due to wing cracks in the new aircraft, battery fires, and other difficulties in producing the aircraft. Boeing aircraft typically do nor carry sophisticated tracking equipment thatt might make the search for a crashed aircraft easier. Limited cockpit recording capabilities of no more than two hours mean a tragedy like this may never be truly analyzed.

Too soon?

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Mar 2014 06:55

Malaysia says there's sealed evidence on MH370 that cannot be made public

BEIJING - A Malaysian team have told relatives of Chinese passengers on board the missing Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370 that there was sealed evidence that cannot be made public, as they came under fire from the angry relatives at a briefing on Wednesday.

The sealed evidence included air traffic control radio transcript, radar data and airport security recordings.

The briefing at the Metropark Lido Hotel in Beijing focused on UK satellite analysis which led Malaysia to conclude that flight MH370 ended in south Indian Ocean, off Perth.

The Chinese relatives were told that a five-member high-level team from Malaysia plans to brief them once every five days. The team include MAS pilot Lim Jit Koon and senior civil aviation official Ahmad Nizar Zolfakar.

During the question-and-answer session, a relative said: "Thanks for demonstrating your ability to read every word out of the powerpoint slides."

Another asked: "If the info is from UK satellite firm Inmarsat, does it mean the Malaysia team cannot answer our questions on the MH370 analysis?"

Faced with the barrage of questions from the angry relatives, the MAS team replied: "We can answer but we might not be correct as we're not the investigators":

They said Malaysia had requested for the British experts to join them for the briefing in Beijing but the latter declined.

They assured the relatives that the search and rescue operations for the plane have been stepped up but the hunt has been challenging as the search area is huge.

The Malaysian government and MAS have been criticised for their handling of the disappearance of MH370 on March 8. They have been accused of being slow in disseminating information and not revealing everything about the incident.

..

Some family representatives targeted Malaysian envoy Iskandar Sarudin, asking him: "You expect us to accept a report you cannot defend?"

"No comment,'' said Mr Iskandar.

He again declined to comment when asked "how do you expect us to feel friendly towards Malaysia?"

Upset by the response from the Malaysia team, a relative said: "You have once again left us speechless!"

Wednesday's briefing was the first time the media were allowed to attend.

The relatives also accused MAS of not providing enough assistance to them.

"Two-thirds of MH370 passengers are Chinese but only 50 caregivers?" asked a relative.

An airline official explained that they have had problem finding volunteers to help out.

When asked why the MAS office at the hotel was closed on Tuesday, the MAS officials said they were advised by the Chinese government not to be there given the tense mood among the relatives.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-sto ... -made-publ

shanth · Post by **shanth** » 29 Mar 2014 08:33

Harpal Bector wrote:That 1 ppm is long term drift. What is the stability of the VCO at the 10 ns level?

I can correct the long term drift by periodically checking with a reference clock like the NIST signal. I can't fix the short term drift. Unless the short term drift is ~ 1Hz on a 1.5GHz carrier, I would not be comfortable with claiming that the shifts on the 50 Hz level are correct.

Nothing much changes at 10ns level. That is too fast for anything to track. In any case the specifications for a modem transmit frequency stability can be found in open source ESTI document's.
As an example the specifications for some sat-com are that at threshold SNR (lowest possible SNR of operation) the RMS frequency error is 7Hz. At high SNR which is expected for Airplanes, things are better than this.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Mar 2014 10:46

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... earch-area

Malaysia's civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, said at Friday's news conference he was "not at liberty" to give the exact path of the aircraft.

Officials close to the investigation told Reuters last week that the plane may have passed close to Port Blair, the capital of India's Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 885 km further north-west from where Malaysia has said its military radar last detected it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2014 14:58

if it passed close to port blair or port moresby, why dont they come out and say it openly?

its not that india can lose any more face in this, given everyone knows we switch off radars at night to save on budget.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Mar 2014 15:58

Who knows why they are not open? Why after 21 days, now they say the plane came 885 km more north before heading south to the deep blue seas? Look at all the paths published so far!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2014 16:11

A_Gupta wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... earch-area

Malaysia's civil aviation chief, Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, said at Friday's news conference he was "not at liberty" to give the exact path of the aircraft.

Officials close to the investigation told Reuters last week that the plane may have passed close to Port Blair, the capital of India's Andaman and Nicobar Islands, 885 km further north-west from where Malaysia has said its military radar last detected it.

The nearest clue that I can think of is from a post on some blog that was linked here on page 420 of this thread. Some guy on some blog suggested that the southern route was given by India which requested not to be named. There is the possibility that India is bluffing, or wants to hide its Andaman and Nicobar radar capability.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 29 Mar 2014 16:23

Reuters had reported as much a week ago. Don't know why this is coming up again.

Don't understand why route of an ac the Malaysian PM thinks crashed into the sea is a secret.

If the radar was turned off at Port Blair so be it... those radars cost money to run what is the shame in being fiscally conservative.

If IAF or IN detected ac and did nothing about it that is a reason for heads to roll.

The existence of procedural mess ups is a bigger threat to national security than some number like the range of the radar becoming public knowledge. Typical range for an ASR is 60nm and the propsed MPR has a range of 160 nm.

If the flight was spoofing a squawk code, then Port Blair might have seen it but not realized it. Again that is a bigger threat to global aviation security than Indian radar capability in Andamans.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 29 Mar 2014 16:28

Let's do a cost benefit analysis sorta kinda. What is there to defend on the Andaman and Nicobar Islands that 24x7 radar coverage is necessary in the south east asia threat scenario direction? It's not like it's the mainland. Ballistic missiles? Jet bombers from Thailand? Amphibious assault from Myanmar? Whut? And if they do ultimately find some wierd buzz killer going on in those islands, they can just send navy/airforce/army to kick the living s**t out of it until everything subsides back to normal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2014 16:29

Harpal Bector wrote:Reuters had reported as much a week ago. Don't know why this is coming up again.

Don't understand why route of an ac the Malaysian PM thinks crashed into the sea is a secret.

If the radar was turned off at Port Blair so be it... those radars cost money to run what is the shame in being fiscally conservative.

If IAF or IN detected ac and did nothing about it that is a reason for heads to roll.

The existence of procedural mess ups is a bigger threat to national security than some number like the range of the radar becoming public knowledge. Typical range for an ASR is 60nm and the proposed MPR has a range of 160 nm.

If the flight was spoofing a squawk code, then Port Blair might have seen it but not realized it. Again that is a bigger threat to global aviation security than Indian radar capability in Andamans.

If radar in the Andamans had seen a plane 100 km away giving a radar reflection suggesting an airliner at great height heading south off the Malaysian and Indonesian coast they would have no reason whatsoever to do anything about it. There is probably no question of any "squawking" because that is for secondary radar to read when coming from a working transponder. The airforce/navy would only have seen a primary radar signal. And only the mainland air force radars are linked with civilian ATC so they know what the ATC "sees" on secondary radar versus what they see on primary radar

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2014 17:19

Didn't think CNN could get worse.. but I was wrong

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Mar 2014 18:51

UlanBatori wrote:Didn't think CNN could get worse.. but I was wrong

CNN and the Malaysian government - they deserve each other.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Mar 2014 19:01

Our next conspiracy theory: this inquiry will end in the distant future with blame passed onto pilot actions. Malaysian government will reject the conclusion.

Another unrelated inquiry, closer, will say the same, but we may not see that reported at all.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 29 Mar 2014 19:13

One more CT to the list (this one is of the batshit insane category): Autopilot/flight computer became self aware and committed suicide.

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Mar 2014 19:16

If the aircraft was flew past Port Blair and passed over Maldives as suggested by eye-witnesses, there is only one place the aircraft could have gone. And that place can feed & shelter 200 more souls. Maybe the bargaining of some kind is going on between both parties and a suitable story has to be decided upon before the fate of 200 is finalized. Only after this can the plane be crashed somewhere far and the debris to be retrieved and media to go to town. hain

Boeing is going to pay for boarding and expenses because it's reputation is at stake, the entire world knows that Boeing's tin tube is hackable and can be flown from Langley or Arizona or wherever. How about this CT.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 29 Mar 2014 21:37

The squawk spoofing would come into it if the military saw something on their radar then looked at the SSR and saw the spoofed code and determined it was not a threat based on that code. In that way the MH370 could have over flown the Andamans without an intercept.

I find it hard to believe that the Indian military would leave an unidentified PSR contact unprosecuted. If they missed it I feel it would have been for a procedural reason.

My own gut instinct still favours the statement made on this thread very early on, that is to have a ground stop until the flight is located and the airframe is definitively identified.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 29 Mar 2014 21:42

The Indian AD has no way to tell if the next lashkar e taiba attack will come from the west or from the east.Even the aircorridor above the Andamans needs to be watched.

Now is it more efficient to use a ground based radar or airborne one that can be left to operational expediency.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2014 22:09

Dyed Whales in the So IO

Two vessels -- one of them a Chinese warship -- retrieved objects, "but so far no objects confirmed to be related to MH370 have been recovered," the authority said. Crew members aboard a Chinese plane dropped buoys to mark three suspected debris sites, China's state-run CCTV reported.
"After entering the search area, the airlifter flew for about 20 minutes," crew member Wang Zhenwu told the television network. "We found an L-shaped debris in orange color right below the plane's right wing. Then within around three minutes, we found a stripe-shaped object. We immediately reported our findings to the captain."

The captain, Liu Jun, said buoys containing dye were dropped on each of the suspected sites, according to CCTV.

BTW, I highly recommend clicking on the "See First Look at Retrieved Items" link. Makes for a good

Sick, I know, but still rather hilarious that they have only found things like those so far!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 Mar 2014 22:28

OK, those have been confirmed duds. New findings "in the colors of the missing jet"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... ne-spotted

A Chinese military plane searching for signs of debris from Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 spotted several objects floating in the sea on Saturday, including two bearing colours of the missing jet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2014 22:42

Not to worry,Inspector Clouseau is being called in to unravel the mystery of the missing Malaysian nightjar.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 30 Mar 2014 00:03

In general, won't dead bodies float on the surface? Assuming that the plane crashed (most likely scenario despite lack of irrefutable evidence) with all aboard dead, wouldn't at least some of the bodies be floating on the surface despite most being stuck inside the plane which is probably under some mountain range under the Indian ocean?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Mar 2014 00:36

habal wrote:
Lalmohan wrote: almost all aircraft now are 2 crew - pilot and co-pilot. the flight engineer has been redundant on commercial airliners for over 2 decades
Full Service Airlines always have one aboard. Can't say what economy airlines do in name of economy. But this isn't the case in every instance. Jet has one till date or until very recently. Wanna bet.

No airline (full service or otherwise) in India carries an Engineer (flight or otherwise) on board as a normal practice.

The only exception being when the flight is bound for a destination not having a resident, qualified engineer capable of "releasing" the aircraft in case of problems.

Such airports are generally those which are served by one single flight per day/week of the airline and it is not economically feasible to permanently position an engineer at such locations. This is the ONLY consideration for carrying an aircraft engineer on board and only for that particular sector.

Only some Russian aircraft and some older 747s etc carry a flight engineer whose role is totally different from that of a aircraft engineer

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2014 01:23

Chetak: The sad fact is that in such a crash, there will be only pieces of bodies, very few complete bodies. Human bodies disintegrate in falls with terminal velocity greater than about XXX m/s, equivalent to falling from a tall building (Ppl who jumped from WTC on 9/11 were shattered to pieces). Jet crash is far, far above that level of kinetic energy, even with energy absorption by the structure and other passengers/baggage/seats. If this was a fuel-out crash, it was more like Mach 0.5 or more (maybe near Mach 1) hitting the water. OTOH, in the Lockerbie crash, they actually talked about some passengers being still alive, strapped in their seats, on the ground when the response teams arrived (most bones and internal organs broken, hopefully unconscious, they died very soon thereafter). In that case the aircraft broke up in the sky after the explosion and passengers in seats may have been thrown clear, or may have been in a section of the plane that hit and absorbed a lot of energy in throwing the seats clear.

In most crashes there is also a high-temperature funeral pyre, so little is left anyway. But this is the reality. Pieces floating may not be identifiable. This is why Air France or Emperor Kanishka crashes produced very few floating bodies etc. Emp.Kanishka was just 10 miles or so off the Irish Coast. Not good to discuss this where relatives may be reading.

But as long as nothing is found, there is still hope... or more suspicion that the crash was covered up in M'sia.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Mar 2014 07:16

~~Six~~ Nine hours later.. no more findings??? This does not look good for the PakMarSAT/Doppler shift theories, hain?

Chinese patrol ship Haixun 01 and Australia's HMAS Success "reported they have retrieved a number of objects from the ocean but so far no objects confirmed to be related to MH370 have been recovered", the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (Amsa) said late on Saturday.