Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014

partha · Post by **partha** » 29 Mar 2014 14:50

Lilo wrote:

Marshallah! What a pic! A symbol of 90% of Pakistani society which is secular and tolerant.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 29 Mar 2014 15:22

Cheers Agnimitra.

On the same theme, in addition to what I said above, note that the TTP spokesman wasn't some rabble rouser off the street coming up with a half baked interpretation of Islam that wilted under the barest scrutiny.

No, this TTP spokesman is obviously a man who has studied the Qur'an and the life of the Prophet in depth, who knows his hadith literature, gave his views with the precision of a logician, the knowledge of a scholar and certainty of a man who knows that he is dead right.

In fact I'd be proud to have him on my debating team any day. Heck, he can be the captain.

He also mostly kept an even tone, while the Pak fauji officer was reduced to a spluttering mess.

Other comments by Maulana TTP:

- Our religion is not based on logic or compassion, it is based on copying references in the Qur'an and hadith. Allah's command to us is to be harsh on the kaffir (EMQ 48:29) and so we are.

- Anyone who serves in PA is a kaffir.

- Pakistan banks are maal-e-ghanimat or war booty and emptying them is considered jihad. At the time of the battle of the Badr, the Prophet actually seized the trade convoy of Abu Sufyan.

- However TTP tries only to rob government banks, however mistakes can be made, and TTP repents its mistakes. After all TTP consists of human beings and human beings make mistakes.

- Kidnapping for ransom is also part of jihad. It is allowed in the Shariah.

- Actual quote- "Sometimes we (TTP) seize a gentlemen such as yourself (pak fauji) and extract money from him"

- Pakfauj's presence in tribal areas is gunda gardi (Bullying/ thuggery)

- Today, because of kaffir Pak fauj, peace in Pakistan is like the peace in a grave yard, where nothing is secure- honour, property or religion. We pray that this anarchy continues, because we intend to use it to establish shariah in Pakistam.

-Pak fauj takes American money, American weapons and American know how to kill Muslims. And it claims to be doing jihad?!!

- To kill a Pak fauji is the same as killing an American soldier. Whether we kill in Afghanistan or Pakistan, it's the same thing- we don't recognize these boundaries

- Pak fauj has rented Maulvis on its payroll. TTP will kill all such Maulvis. We are allowed to do this by Shariah.

-The Prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, and gained strength there. When he gained strength in Medina he attacked Mecca. We are the same. It is therefore only right that our Uzbek and Turkmen brothers come here to gain strength to fight the kaffir in their own countries.

- Right now we are too busy fighting Pak Fauj (who falsely call themselves Muslim) to help our brothers elsewhere.

- Mullah Omar is our leader. His commands come to us through trusted couriers, in secret- you think they should be published on the internet!??

- Question by an increasingly frustrated Pak fauji near the end "Do you take money from India?". TTP mans answer, "Why, are you ill? Your leaders go to India, hobnob with Bollywood stars.....you accepted defeat in Kargil, gave Kashmir to India. 90000 of your soldiers laid down their weapons in front of Indians"

- We will establish Shariah or embrace shahadat (martyrdom)

- Interesting back and forth

Pakfauji- "We made a mistake when we trusted you to liberate Kashmir. You said you would liberate Kashmir but did not"
TTP spokesman - "We will fight India - this is Ghazwa tul Hind. But the fighting in Kashmir, Lashkar e Taiba, Jaish e Muhammad, etc are working under you and your orders. You can feed them and make them fat, but they have nothing to do with us"

- Once Pak fauj's 'Uncle America' goes home, Pak Fauj will scream

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Mar 2014 15:42

Fantastic. The Pak Fauj Officer must have had a torrid and shameful time and will carry this for the rest of his life.

LeT & JeM's position is also clear vis-a-vis TTP.

Thanks to Agnimitra & Baikul.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2014 16:17

Peregrine wrote: To my knowledge Pakistan cannot sell this Gold Reserve as it is already Hypthecated - Swapped as per the following report from State Bank of Pakistan :

Why? This is a perfect time to sell it. When they don't own it. That would be true Pakistaniyat.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 29 Mar 2014 16:42

partha wrote:Marshallah! What a pic! A symbol of 90% of Pakistani society which is secular and tolerant.

90% onlee? It is 0.0000001% pakis that are non-secular.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 29 Mar 2014 16:42

Sindhudesh Freedom March, K'rachi. March 2014.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Mar 2014 19:42

India should help other countries to eradicate polio: Pranab - The Hindu

“India must assist other countries such as Pakistan, Nigeria and Afghanistan in their fight against this disease in improving their health systems and infrastructure,” said Mr. Mukherjee while inaugurating the Polio Free Conclave 2014 organised by the Rotary International in New Delhi.

Does the President know why polio eradication is not succeeding in Pakistan ? If he doesn't know that is a shame and if he knew it then it is incorrect to make this statement.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Mar 2014 20:22

SSridhar wrote:Fantastic. The Pak Fauj Officer must have had a torrid and shameful time and will carry this for the rest of his life.

LeT & JeM's position is also clear vis-a-vis TTP.

Thanks to Agnimitra & Baikul.

'
Watch it sir, posted by Paul, unbelievable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TD8PA4IZao

lol, YT put a music video edited..

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 29 Mar 2014 20:30

^^ wrong link. the correct link as posted in previous page by Paul with audio in urdu with english subtitle is

Debate Between Taliban Scholar & Pakistan Army Official

Link will open on youtube.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Mar 2014 20:34

Thanks Patni corrected

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 29 Mar 2014 20:43

^^^Funny thing is the Paki army official threatened to come back with his own scholar in the next debate to rebut the maulana. Good luck with him finding a volunteer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2014 20:44

SSridhar, Time for updating the Pakistan 2014 ppt. On the verge of US retreat from Afghanistan.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Mar 2014 20:49

Paul wrote:^^^Funny thing is the Paki army official threatened to come back with his own scholar in the next debate to rebut the maulana. Good luck with him finding a volunteer.

They are both fanatics its just the Maulana is a bigger fanatic and able to quote his reasons letter and verse making the Pak officer huff and puff. Truly good India is electing a new govt - hopefully a stronger one, when these idiots in Pak implode.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Mar 2014 21:49

^the talib scholar goes on to say it is actually "kufr republic of pakistan" not "islamic republic of pakistan".

Man the TTP guy is a kickass debater, calm and composed. Points he makes are crystal clear.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 29 Mar 2014 22:37

Man! I may be horrified with what was discussed but the TTP guy was amazing in his clarity of thought and knowledge without losing his composure even once while threatening, insulting and humiliating the Pakjabi Army person with wit.
The TTP guy tore into Paki's musharraf. He was very clear on killing kids and Women, Looting banks, killing by cutting throats etc. This is real picture of Islam whatever non sense of religion of peace being smoked.
Indians forgave 91,000 troops in '71 but TTP will not so easily let go of 'Murtaad' army and RAPE.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 29 Mar 2014 23:54

Read this towel:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/688869/esca ... -the-pure/

On Friday night, when I had planned to visit Data Darbar after my television show, my car was attacked by “unknown” (a euphemism for lethal terror outfits) assailants. The minute I heard the first bullet, the Darwinian instinct made me duck under and I chose to lie on the back of the car.

I am now at a safe location, unable to move out and have been told that my case is exceptional with six men — most armed — had attempted to eliminate me and they failed. And that the security agencies can only protect me if I remain locked up in a “safe” location.

Fellows earlier tweets on Kasab

I am truly encouraged by several Indian followers who tried to understand my tweets on humanising Ajmal Kasab, opposing death penalty etc.

Please provide schools, training, employment to ppl of #Pakistan. Kasab is not an individual. He represents the landless, marginalised poor

Maybe he will round up his assailants too and provide them with good jobs, land and education. After all they are unemployed, illiterate people radicalized by numerous injustices like Kashmir, Palestine etc. Also I am not sure if he himself staged the attack as a false flag operation (just like RAW) for sympathy.

also wonder what express news group did to irk the purer green.

That video debate was

The Army chap was reduced to arguing that He is not Murtad but a Munafiq. To which the talib chap cooly replied, "well, It is obligatory to kill Murtads. It is not obligatory to kill Munafiqs, but is permitted. You dont seem to understand this"

partha · Post by **partha** » 30 Mar 2014 02:43

http://www.dawn.com/news/1096409

But then, false equivalence is a popular thing indeed. Take for example, the usual line about there being extremists on both sides of the ideological divide. This gem is trotted out every now and then whenever some right-winger says something particularly egregious and his minions feel the need to distract from it.

“Liberal extremists are as intolerant as right-wing extremists” you’ll hear them say. Maybe so, but last I checked there wasn’t a Lashkar-e-Seculari out to kill you if you happened to support the CII.

Extremists on both sides of the ideological divide argument is not OK but extremists on both sides of the India-Pakistan border argument is totally OK.

There are extremists in India too Pakis say. Maybe so, but last I checked there wasn't a Lashkar-e-Hindustan from India out to kill Pakistani Muslims because they are not Hindus.

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 30 Mar 2014 03:48

For all her vitriolic directed at India, Shirin mazari is finally discovering the truth about Pakistan.
"We have met the enemy and he is us"

http://www.dawn.com/news/1096379/opposi ... y-sentence

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 30 Mar 2014 04:00

Posting in full for attention of the DDM who have extolled Tipu Sultan's "Secular Love" for the Hindus!

Hatred for Hindus - Kunwar Khuldune Shahid

Kunwar Khuldune Shahid traces the roots of the recent torching of a temple in Larkana

There are over 35,000 Hindus living in Larkana, making up around nine percent of the city’s population. And so when the ever-ready Muslim mob conjured the blasphemy card, in turn torching a temple and a dharamshala in the city on March 16, the religious tension in the city was as palpable as it gets. The reverberations of said tension were felt in Osta Muhammad and Dera Murad Jamali as well, as the Pakistani Muslim’s ancestral animosity towards Hindus, coupled with a baseless allegation of Holy Quran’s desecration, spilt bigotry all over the country.

It is very important for Pakistani Muslims (97 percent of the population) to differentiate themselves from Hindus. After all it’s precisely this difference that became our state’s raison d’etre in 1947. And differentiating is the first step en route to the development of hatred that eventually inflates into bigotry.

For the average Pakistani Muslim this bigotry wards off the increasingly looming identity crisis, and reaffirms the illusions of historical and religious grandeur.

The destruction of the Somnath Temple in 1,025 AD by Mahmud Ghaznavi is one of the “proudest” moments in the “history of Pakistan” that ostensibly began when the first Muslim (Muhammad bin Qasim) entered the region in the 8th century. During his endeavour to destroy the temple, Ghaznavi also butchered 50,000 Hindus – about the same number of people that the Pakistani Taliban have obliterated in over a decade with significantly deadlier arsenal. Such is the status of destroying a Hindu temple in defining the ideology of Pakistan that the fact that Ghaznavi invaded Multan in 1,005 AD to ruthlessly massacre Ismaili Shias is conveniently forgotten.

Ghaznavi was Shia-phobic, a murderer and plunderer; however, his massacre of Hindus and destruction of temples elevates his status to a ‘national’ hero even though he had died 900 years before the idea of this nation was conceived. It goes without saying that had Ghaznavi been alive he would have been very proud of the mob that destroyed the Hindu temple in Larkana.

An excerpt from Tipu Sultan’s – another hero and role model for Pakistanis – letter to Bekal’s governor, Budruz Zuman Khan in 1790 tells us more about him than the thousands of Hindu massacres that he orchestrated and the multiple coerced conversions that he oversaw;

“Don’t you know I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over four lakh Hindus were converted to Islam? I am determined to march against that cursed Raman Nair (Rajah of Travancore) very soon. Since I am overjoyed at the prospect of converting him and his subjects to Islam, I have happily abandoned the idea of going back to Srirangapatanam now.”

From Ziauddin Barani’s Fatwa-i-Jahandari calling for “an all-out struggle against Hinduism” under Muhammad bin Tughlaq to Muhammad Ali Jinnah dubbing Pakistan’s establishment “essential to prevent Hindu imperialism spreading into the Middle East” in the lead up to August 1947, Muslim rulers and leaders in the Indian subcontinent often established antagonism against the Hindus as an integral part of their governance and policy making.

The bile against Hinduism that Pakistani school curricula spew has been well documented and condemned by liberal quarters. “The foundation of Hindu set-up was based on injustice and cruelty” (Grade 6, Social Studies Book); this is one of the many gems from the books that our children are taught to further proliferate xenophobia inside their already jingoistic heads. However, the significance of hating Hindus for Pakistanis is a lot more than just biased historical narratives or pumping up bigotry under the garb of patriotism.

It is very important to realise here that it’s not being implied that Hindus do not – or have never – reciprocated these sentiments. The stereotypical Hindu of ‘secular’ India manifests similar communal antagonism. And the nation might very well be on the verge of electing a communalist as their next prime minister in the shape of Narendra Modi. However, what needs to be understood and underscored here is that an Indian Hindu manifesting communal bigotry contradicts the ‘idea’ of India, while a Pakistani Muslim by doing so conforms to the ‘idea’ of Pakistan. Opposition to Hindus, and antagonism between Hindus and Muslims, form the founding principle of Pakistan.

Ideally the Islamo-fascist clamours of the 1940s, that became patriotic anthems of the movement for Pakistan, should have no relevance to events in modern day Pakistan. But how can you expect Hindu-Muslim harmony in a state that was created through fanning the embers of Hindu-Muslim disharmony? How can Pakistan expect the Hindus and Muslims inhabiting the country to evolve into one nation, after creating a state that owes itself to the principle that Hindus and Muslims of the Indian subcontinent are two different nations and cannot survive in unison?

The rather popular “Arabisation” of and obsession with our Islamic identity is the direct corollary of the Pakistan movement, since the Muslim inhabitants of this region were told that they had nothing in common with the Hindus of the region. This has obviously resulted in Pakistanis considering their country as a quasi-Arab land.

Refusing to acknowledge the commonalities between Hindus and Muslims of the Indian subcontinent is a part of the legacy of our founding fathers, and the reason why Pakistan was created in the first place. We might castigate the Pakistan Studies curricula all we want, but if anti-Hindu material is taken out of these books, the curriculum designers and the narrators of Pakistan’s version of Indo-Pak history would find it really hard to justify the creation of Pakistan.

Jinnah might have told the Pakistani Hindus on August 11, 1947 that they are “free to go to their temples,” but as long as his separatist movement and the cult of Ghazvani and Tipu Sultan is extolled, the Pakistani Muslims would continue to feel equally “free” to torch these temples.

For Pakistan to achieve religious harmony and existential stability it would inevitably have to question its founding ideology. That’s the paradox staring the country in the face right now200 years later, Tipu Sultan's Karnataka debates his legacy

Here is the Indian “Secular” Version :

200 years later, Tipu Sultan's Karnataka debates his legacy

Soon, politicians on both sides of the fence had their own viewpoints. "This being the election year, the government of Karnataka made an attempt to make a Tipu Sultan tableau. This is highly condemnable," G Madhusudhan, a BJP leader, told NDTV.

The ruling Congress defended the decision, saying Tipu's contribution to the state made him an ideal choice for the float at the Republic Day parade in Delhi.

"He was an icon. We feel proud that he was a secular leader. He fought for the country, for social change. He uplifted the farmers," state minister DK Shivakumar said.

Meanwhile, Karnataka's celebrated playwright Girish Karnad, who wrote 'The Dreams of Tipu Sultan', called him "the greatest son Karnataka has produced in 500 years."

"Let me say that if Tipu Sultan was a Hindu, he would have been worshipped like Shivaji. Just because he is a Muslim, he is being hounded by the right-wing, and there are right-wing historians too trying to invent facts," Mr Karnad said.

Mr Karnad also called for the renaming of the Bangalore airport to Tipu Sultan International Airport.

Cheers

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 30 Mar 2014 04:25

Attack on Pasni radar station kills one

QUETTA : Armed men disguised in security forces’ uniforms attacked the Pasni radar-post in Mekran Belt near Gwadar on Saturday, killing a Balochistan Constabulary official and injuring another, according to a senior official. An official in the province’s home and tribal affairs department, who requested anonymity owing to sensitivity of the matter, told a private television channel that eight armed militants stormed inside the Pasni radar post and killed personnel deployed there. “The militants took eight security personnel hostage,” he said, adding that the insurgents killed one of them for offering resistance.

Cheers

chandrasekhar.m · Post by **chandrasekhar.m** » 30 Mar 2014 04:55

Thanks for the video. Watched the entire thing. In addition to all the points mentioned by Baikul and others, what registered in my mind was the maulana's conviction that the TTP will either establish shariat or embrace shahadath. Pakistan's and Afghanistan's government/army will be brought down and then its time for Ghazwatul Hind.

Its an eye opener on various levels. Introduces you to some harsh realities.

Tuan · Post by **Tuan** » 30 Mar 2014 05:02

Saudis woo Pakistan with $1.5 billion grant -- Why now?
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-woos ... 27055.html

As US president Barack Obama looks to mend ties with Saudi Arabia in Riyadh today, the Saudis hope to shore up regional support. Their $1.5 billion gift has raised suspicions among Pakistanis.

By Taha Siddiqui
March 28, 2014 1:34 PM

Pakistan announced last week that it received a $1.5 billion grant from Saudi Arabia, which it termed a “friendly gift” and an “unconditional grant.”

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have long had warm ties, but the no-strings-attached gift sparked immediate concern from Pakistani journalists, security experts, and opposition politicians, who question whether the grant is part of a behind-the-scenes deal for Pakistan to provide weapons for Syrian rebels.

“There are no free lunches in foreign diplomacy,” says Baqir Sajjad, a journalist at Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper, which has published articles questioning the deal.

The grant was confirmed at a briefing by Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s advisor on national security and foreign affairs, who also said that Saudi Arabia had agreed to purchase weapons from Pakistan.

The Pakistan government declined to specify what kind of weapons the Kingdom was looking for and denied that any arms purchased by Saudi Arabia will be sent to Syria. Pakistan, which has the sixth-largest army in the world, is known as a major arms importer, but it also sells fighter jets, anti-tank missiles, armored personal carriers, and small arms to Sri Lanka, Iraq, and Malaysia.

Ayesha Siddiqa, a defense expert based in Islamabad, says that Saudi Arabia – who is desperate to counter arch-rival Iran’s support for the Syrian regime and has publicly called for arming Syrian rebels – may want to buy weapons from Pakistan rather than other countries because Pakistan cannot enforce an agreement about where the arms end up.

“If the arms bought from the West were supplied to Syrian rebels and the sellers like the United States or other such countries found out, they would be able impose sanctions on the Saudis,” she says. “But Pakistan has no such leverage over the Saudis if they violate the agreement” because the government is cash-strapped and worried that US foreign aid will diminish once American troops withdraw from Afghanistan.

The disclosure of the grant and weapons agreement follows a series of high-level talks between Pakistan and Saudi Arabian officials over the past three months and Pakistan's break last month from its neutral stance on the Syrian civil war. It said for the first time that the Assad regime should step down.

There is no proof that Pakistan’s decisions are the direct result of Saudi Arabia’s actions – or that its arms will reach Syria. Even if they did, “there are so many arms coming from so many different places,” says Michael Kugelman, a Pakistan scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington in an e-mail. “Unless the level of Pakistani arms shipments reaches some sort of critical mass, I don’t see them being any kind of game-changer for the conflict.”

The consequences of Pakistani arms sent to Syria “could be destabilizing for sure,” Mr. Kugelman says, though more so for Pakistan than for the Middle East. The risk is that “Pakistan's already-raging sectarian violence would worsen. And its battlefield role in the ongoing Iran-Saudi Arabia sectarian proxy war would grow ever more strong,” he says.

At home, Pakistan is struggling with its Sunni-Shiite violence and ongoing strife from the Pakistan Taliban’s insurgency. There were 687 sectarian killings in Pakistan last year, an increase of 22 percent from 2012, according to the Pakistan Institute for Peace Studies. Violence between Sunni Muslims (about 75 percent of the population) and Shiites (15 to 20 percent) has never reached massive levels, but there’s concern that it’s on the rise.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 30 Mar 2014 05:12

SSridhar wrote:Fantastic. The Pak Fauj Officer must have had a torrid and shameful time and will carry this for the rest of his life.

LeT & JeM's position is also clear vis-a-vis TTP.

Thanks to Agnimitra & Baikul.

Please to note also the open hatred of TSPA afsar towards India and Hindus, and the free and casual acknowledgment that the fauj is behind the war on J& K. It is conclusive proof that there can be no peace with Pakistan.

Like the Taliban guy we should prepare for the elimination of Pakistan and also the vision of Islam that is represented by the Taliban guy, no matter how long it takes or how costly it is. The guy is right that defensive warfare is lies or foolish talk.

I suggest that this audio be downloaded / replicated in some way and be made a part of the introductory links for the TSP thread.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 30 Mar 2014 05:33

Peregrine wrote:Posting in full for attention of the DDM who have extolled Tipu Sultan's "Secular Love" for the Hindus!

Hatred for Hindus - Kunwar Khuldune Shahid

Kunwar Khuldune Shahid traces the roots of the recent torching of a temple in Larkana

It is sad that even Kunwar Khuldune cannot get his head out of the arse of "Hindutva == Islamism" false equivalence:

Khuldune's farticle wrote:It is very important to realise here that it’s not being implied that Hindus do not – or have never – reciprocated these sentiments. The stereotypical Hindu of ‘secular’ India manifests similar communal antagonism. And the nation might very well be on the verge of electing a communalist as their next prime minister in the shape of Narendra Modi. However, what needs to be understood and underscored here is that an Indian Hindu manifesting communal bigotry contradicts the ‘idea’ of India, while a Pakistani Muslim by doing so conforms to the ‘idea’ of Pakistan. Opposition to Hindus, and antagonism between Hindus and Muslims, form the founding principle of Pakistan. - See more at: http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/hatre ... mment-5320

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2014 06:44

My impression of Pakistan as a white, western woman

Bakistan Ki Mutt Lubb Kanha Hai?

Pakistan, the strange country that no westerner can really understand. So many contradictions and so many half-truths — what is Pakistan really and how can a westerner comprehend this? How can a westerner, especially a woman, understand Pakistan? Is it possible without the language? Yes, one can read about the culture, religion and moral values. So what are the moral values of the young generation in Pakistani? Where is the truth and were are the lies? I would venture to say: somewhere in between the two. They evoke God but they do not follow true Islam; it is almost as if religion is the last resort and turning to God can alleviate all sins. They do not pray five times a day. I have seen this again and again and I do question their relationship to God, a relationship they use all the time. It seems almost ironic that one can praise God and lie at the same time at a minute’s notice. It is a phenomenon that I have observed during my four visits to Pakistan. First of all, every foreigner is a CIA agent. They do not have any concept of an academic who wants to learn and see how real Islam works and what it truly means. As a western, white woman one can be a novelty, a toy to play with and almost a showcase for some.
It is hard to compare this young generation, which wants so desperately to be western, to anything I have ever seen. They critique the west, especially the US, since its drones kill their people but, at the same time, they love western clothing, western music and slang, which they have learned from western movies. They do not have an understanding of slang, I will venture to say. “Nigger” seems to be in style and, on numerous occasions, I have tried to tell these youngsters that if they used this word they would offend not only black people but also most Americans. My words of caution usually fell on deaf ears. Then again, one has to be tolerant since many young people in Pakistan have never been to the west, and the west of the movies is so totally different from western culture.
Men are frustrated that they cannot have intimate relations any time they want. Sex is a taboo and, of course, it is done behind closed doors. At times, I wonder what their knowledge of sex is — it is so different from the way we view sex here. It seems to me that men here do not understand what a woman needs; how could they? They have never had sex education in school and they are taught that sex is the biggest sin in Islam. Many young women will pretend that they are virgins when it comes time for them to get married. The contrast with the way men treat their sisters and the women they sleep with is a paradox. One does not marry without a parent’s permission.

Young men who in the west are considered to be grown up, act like teenagers here with the mentality to match. It is hard to believe that any one society could produce so many mentally crippled men. They are so afraid of their parents that the truth becomes a lie in the name of respect. For young people in Pakistan, the future is bleak: no promising jobs and no opportunities. Many young man do emigrate to seek them and a few of them are lucky enough to go. At times, I felt ashamed to be so privileged and have so much: the education, the trust of friends and no fear of the truth and the whole wide world open to me. However, here in Pakistan, I had to take a deep breath, look around and realise that this was not the Islam I was prepared to see. There are lies, which produce more lies and it becomes like a maze. At times I feel as if nobody knows anymore what the truth is and what the lie is — they merge all into one . Of course, I am being a bit overly general here but on the whole it is the norm.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2014 06:56

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... th-destiny
India’s new tryst with destiny?

As India turns inwards to its next election, the world watches with a mixture of anxiety and hope. Hope, because India has the capacity to lead South Asia into a less polarised 21st century. And worry in case it takes a turn towards ultra-nationalism and regional drift. With the BJP’s Narendra Modi’s sharp new addition to the election’s chest-thump, anti-Pakistan belligerence has been staked out as a test of his opponent’s nationalist credentials – in this case, Arvind Kejriwal. Whether the ‘Vajpayee route’ of seeking eventual normalisation with Pakistan is taken or not, the drumbeat of chauvinism is back in play.No one can predict an election outcome in South Asia. Yet, in what is seen as a pendulum swing to the BJP after ten years of Congress rule, whatever the outcome, a second and possibly more profound sanitisation of the politics of Hindutva is underway. Pollsters suggest that swathes of governance-deprived Indians, driven either by the commerce or can-do profile of Narendra Modi, are ready to put their faith in a resurgent BJP.The question central to the Pakistani mind in the short run, though, is not whether 4G India can accommodate its disaffected, but how it deals with Islamabad. Pakistan has changed. Its parliamentary mainstream no longer thinks about India in cardboard cut-outs. No one bothers to mention India in an election call-out of rivals. Democrats in Pakistan see regional cooperation as the future, albeit on mutual terms, whereas in India, even outside an election cycle the Lok Sabha can rock with a nationalism that often roadblocks dialogue with Pakistan.
What is worrying is that whatever the numbers, given the high-octane right-wing discourse fuelling rhetoric on a corporatised Indian media, all bets on a Singh-like restraint amid a possible crisis with Pakistan may well be off.At the same time, a new Indian PM’s behaviour towards Pakistan will likely be shaped by the strength of the government coalition. The conventional wisdom is that a majority will certainly help prospects of moving forward. A fragile plurality will likely prolong stalemate. The sense is that official Delhi’s studied ‘peace fatigue’ over a revival of the composite dialogue over the last two years will continue unless Islamabad changes the game on penalties for Mumbai.Given that crisis-management structures between India and Pakistan remain embedded in a history of conflict and mistrust, both countries would profit from a break in the strategic drift that New Delhi has preferred to keep broader dialogue trapped in.While breakthroughs such as trade are very welcome, the new leadership needs to know that trade alone will not shift the shape of things between the two nations. Coercive diplomacy will fare even worse.With a major security transition on way in Afghanistan, including an impending election there which will spawn new coalitions by the summer, uncertainty is the catchword for 2014. The only certainty, in fact, is that the next Indian leadership will take its time in rebooting the relationship.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2014 07:39

Patni wrote:^^ wrong link. the correct link as posted in previous page by Paul with audio in urdu with english subtitle is

Debate Between Taliban Scholar & Pakistan Army Official

Link will open on youtube.

The first time I saw this - a few months ago I was convinced. But this time I somehow get the feeling that this is a fake debate. The so called Pak army fellow is on the defensive from the outset and offers easy statements for the Talib to rip open.

I suspect that both Paki mullahs and Talib mullahs have strong arguments about each other. In this case one is a cop out.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2014 07:43

shiv wrote:
Patni wrote: The first time I saw this - a few months ago I was convinced. But this time I somehow get the feeling that this is a fake debate. The so called Pak army fellow is on the defensive from the outset and offers easy statements for the Talib to rip open.I suspect that both Paki mullahs and Talib mullahs have strong arguments about each other. In this case one is a cop out.

The same debate was on air couple of years ago.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2014 07:45

Jhujar wrote:http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... th-destiny
India’s new tryst with destiny?

As India turns inwards to its next election, the world watches with a mixture of anxiety and hope. Hope, because India has the capacity to lead South Asia into a less polarised 21st century. And worry in case it takes a turn towards ultra-nationalism and regional drift. With the BJP’s Narendra Modi’s sharp new addition to the election’s chest-thump, anti-Pakistan belligerence has been staked out as a test of his opponent’s nationalist credentials – in this case, Arvind Kejriwal. Whether the ‘Vajpayee route’ of seeking eventual normalisation with Pakistan is taken or not, the drumbeat of chauvinism is back in play.No one can predict an election outcome in South Asia. Yet, in what is seen as a pendulum swing to the BJP after ten years of Congress rule, whatever the outcome, a second and possibly more profound sanitisation of the politics of Hindutva is underway. Pollsters suggest that swathes of governance-deprived Indians, driven either by the commerce or can-do profile of Narendra Modi, are ready to put their faith in a resurgent BJP.The question central to the Pakistani mind in the short run, though, is not whether 4G India can accommodate its disaffected, but how it deals with Islamabad. Pakistan has changed. Its parliamentary mainstream no longer thinks about India in cardboard cut-outs. No one bothers to mention India in an election call-out of rivals. Democrats in Pakistan see regional cooperation as the future, albeit on mutual terms, whereas in India, even outside an election cycle the Lok Sabha can rock with a nationalism that often roadblocks dialogue with Pakistan.
What is worrying is that whatever the numbers, given the high-octane right-wing discourse fuelling rhetoric on a corporatised Indian media, all bets on a Singh-like restraint amid a possible crisis with Pakistan may well be off.At the same time, a new Indian PM’s behaviour towards Pakistan will likely be shaped by the strength of the government coalition. The conventional wisdom is that a majority will certainly help prospects of moving forward. A fragile plurality will likely prolong stalemate. The sense is that official Delhi’s studied ‘peace fatigue’ over a revival of the composite dialogue over the last two years will continue unless Islamabad changes the game on penalties for Mumbai.Given that crisis-management structures between India and Pakistan remain embedded in a history of conflict and mistrust, both countries would profit from a break in the strategic drift that New Delhi has preferred to keep broader dialogue trapped in.While breakthroughs such as trade are very welcome, the new leadership needs to know that trade alone will not shift the shape of things between the two nations. Coercive diplomacy will fare even worse.With a major security transition on way in Afghanistan, including an impending election there which will spawn new coalitions by the summer, uncertainty is the catchword for 2014. The only certainty, in fact, is that the next Indian leadership will take its time in rebooting the relationship.

Actually a BJP led government will be a great time for Pakistan fauj to start a conflict with India since the Congress party of India, Samajwadi party, Pakistan and America are all united in being convinced that Modi (and BJP) are Muslim haters. So any war will be blamed on Hindu right wing belligerence and hatred of Muslims.

A war may be a hiccup for India but it will be used by Pakistan to unite its various fighting factions while cracking down viciously on some groups in the name of national security. That was the "spirit of 1965" I hope the BJP have enough brains to anticipate this although I sometimes despair that they don't. In my mind the jury is out on how much the BJP really understands - for all their nationalistic rhetoric.

Someone catch me out anytime in the next 18 months if an India Pakistan conflict does not occur and if the US does not apply sanctions on India.

partha · Post by **partha** » 30 Mar 2014 08:51

Anujan wrote:Read this towel:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/688869/esca ... -the-pure/

On Friday night, when I had planned to visit Data Darbar after my television show, my car was attacked by “unknown” (a euphemism for lethal terror outfits) assailants. The minute I heard the first bullet, the Darwinian instinct made me duck under and I chose to lie on the back of the car.

I am now at a safe location, unable to move out and have been told that my case is exceptional with six men — most armed — had attempted to eliminate me and they failed. And that the security agencies can only protect me if I remain locked up in a “safe” location.

A crowd had gathered and I was seeking their assistance almost like someone in a hysterical sub-continental film

So is it no longer South Asian film?

So, I wish to ask my well-wishers the following questions: is raising the issue of minority rights unacceptable? Is demanding the inclusion of Jinnah’s August 11 speech in our Constitution and state behaviour unacceptable?

Where is the proof of the so called Aug 11th speech? The world demands more proof. RAPEs want the world to believe that Jinnah laid the foundation of a secular and progressive Pakistan based on some 2 min speech for which there is no evidence but want more proof that Pak establishment knew of OBL even after OBL was found right next to a military academy in a major city.

btw, I am sure Jinnah must have added this at the end of his speech as a warning to minorities but was not recorded -

"The Pakistan offer is full of risks. Read the offer document carefully before migrating".

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2014 08:58

Jinnah Sahib made this famous secular speech latter on on Feb 31 ,1948.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 30 Mar 2014 09:13

http://www.nation.com.pk/national/29-Ma ... ar-e-quaid

Security has been deployed at historical sites of Pakistan, including the Mazar-e-Quaid in Karachi and tomb of Allama Iqbal in Lahore, due to a terror threat in the country today.
Security was alerted and heavy contingents of law enforcing agencies deployed around the tomb of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Initially entry of visitors was banned at Mazar-e-Quaid for three days but later people were allowed to visit the Mazar-e-Quaid after checking.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2014 09:18

partha wrote:
So, I wish to ask my well-wishers the following questions: is raising the issue of minority rights unacceptable? Is demanding the inclusion of Jinnah’s August 11 speech in our Constitution and state behaviour unacceptable?

What well wishers say is irrelevant.

What does the Quran say?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Mar 2014 09:19

shiv wrote:
I suspect that both Paki mullahs and Talib mullahs have strong arguments about each other. In this case one is a cop out.

Shiv, the Paki on the debate is most certainly not a Mullah, he most likely must be a layman or an army official. The Paki's arguments were not on theological terms, they were on layman terms. He does not have the knowledge of the Quran's suras and the Hadeeths to counter the TTP Maulana's quotations with counter quotations.

That is why he is on the backfoot.

chandrasekhar.m · Post by **chandrasekhar.m** » 30 Mar 2014 09:28

shiv wrote:
Patni wrote:^^ wrong link. the correct link as posted in previous page by Paul with audio in urdu with english subtitle is

Debate Between Taliban Scholar & Pakistan Army Official

Link will open on youtube.
The first time I saw this - a few months ago I was convinced. But this time I somehow get the feeling that this is a fake debate. The so called Pak army fellow is on the defensive from the outset and offers easy statements for the Talib to rip open.

I suspect that both Paki mullahs and Talib mullahs have strong arguments about each other. In this case one is a cop out.

shiv saar, I got the same doubt a few minutes ago. It seemed like the Paki side was kind of dumb and the TTP side was acting too "shareef".
Anyway, one positive thing is that even if it was faked for TTP propaganda purposes, the ideology revealed in that video will shock the ignorant.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 30 Mar 2014 09:46

Anujan wrote:Read this towel:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/688869/esca ... -the-pure/

On Friday night, when I had planned to visit Data Darbar after my television show, my car was attacked by “unknown” (a euphemism for lethal terror outfits) assailants. The minute I heard the first bullet, the Darwinian instinct made me duck under and I chose to lie on the back of the car.

I am now at a safe location, unable to move out and have been told that my case is exceptional with six men — most armed — had attempted to eliminate me and they failed. And that the security agencies can only protect me if I remain locked up in a “safe” location.

The way he describes the event it seems like an ISI job. They scared the sh!t out of him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2014 10:35

abhijitm wrote: The way he describes the event it seems like an ISI job. They scared the sh!t out of him.

Agree. Raza Rumi probably has relatives and friends among the elite - so this is an ISI warning shot. Taliban would have killed him. Drivers are expendable in Pakistan anyway.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 30 Mar 2014 11:50

Raza Rumi - Why on earth you would take a Persian name in a country where Shia's are considered wajib-ul-Qatal ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2014 11:54

VikasRaina wrote:Raza Rumi - Why on earth you would take a Persian name in a country where Shia's are considered wajib-ul-Qatal ?

I just had an aha moment. There was a news item that even Shitistan army had 30% shia (who definitely won't go to Saudi for boot licking).

When Uneven Cohen that Pakistan is "secular" he means that Pakistani society is not trying to kill all shias all the time. They are gentle and tolerant (of shias and other scum). Some communal elements in Pakistan attack shias. That's all.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Mar 2014 14:38

Does this make any sense?? given that India does not trust duplicitous nawaz??

Reversing course

Reversing course
CYRIL ALMEIDA

2014-03-30 06:49:41
THEY don’t want trade. And Nawaz has given them what they want.

They’re all trying to play it down. You’ll see; we’ll get this done. Just wait a bit. What’s a few months in the larger scheme of things?

But keep probing and the shoulders begin to sag. They don’t want trade. They don’t want normalisation. And the civilians don’t know what to do about it.

The non-event of a trade deal with India that was to be signed with much pomp and ceremony falling through has received little attention.

That makes sense. The game-changer was still some way off. Other stuff was happening in Pakistan.

What doesn’t make sense is why Nawaz backed down.

Nawaz was the guy who was supposed to have got it. Turn east, not west. The boys’ obsession with the eastern border had led to fears on the western border that led to choices that had engulfed Pakistan itself in flames.

The way out was obvious: turn east, not west. Normalise ties with India, tamp down militancy domestically, then wait for the peace and security dividend.

Instead, Nawaz has turned his back on the east and focused his attention on the west — just to keep Fata from spilling over into Punjab.

What the hell happened? This isn’t small-bore stuff, this isn’t tactics — this is the whole bloody game itself.

You don’t make that switch and pretend that nothing’s changed. The whole edifice of hope in Nawaz v3.0 was built on that dual assumption: he’d open up to India and slap down militants.

So, what happened?

The boys scuttled the deal. As simple as that.

That nonsense about Foreign Office reservations, issues over timing and special interests objections is just that — nonsense.

Special interests in trade and industry had been won over and appeased for a while. Everyone — everyone — knew about the Indian election and had an eye on the clock. And the idea that Tariq Fatemi or Sartaj Aziz would scuttle their boss’ signature policy initiative is risible.

No, Foreign Office is code because there are two foreign offices: one that the boys control, the other that the civilians nominally head. And consensus is also code: it’s not intra-civilian where the consensus was missing, it’s civ-mil.

If we know who Nawaz yielded to, more difficult is to fully figure out why.

The first step is easy enough to guess. It’s a tale of two deals: one with the TTP, the other with India. Both deals need the boys’ assent and both deals the boys are opposed to in the shape and form Nawaz wants.

So Nawaz chose: dialogue over trade; west over east; more-of-the-same v game-changer.

You can see why he did it: the dialogue option is his idea, he’s staked his political reputation on it and he’ll be judged by the outcome.

But then trade was his idée fixe — it was the thing that had defined him, the conviction that had given birth to a thousand hopes.

Nawaz probably thinks nothing has changed. That politics is about moments — now is the moment for peace, so get the dialogue done and then return to trade in a few months’ time.

Except, it doesn’t work that way. Concede so early and the next time becomes harder still. The enemy has seen weakness and the enemy’s been playing this game for longer than Nawaz has been around. Six months is the new 90 days.

Still, in his mind, he may believe it isn’t capitulation, just smart play, a tactical retreat.

It’s what came next that tore away the fig leaf and ripped everything to shreds.

March 23 Pakistan — but Punjab in particular — became jihad central. There they were, the anti-India lot, running around the country, telling everyone what the meaning of Pakistan is.

You know why they did it. The TTP has been dominating everything. They are everywhere and all that anyone can talk about.

So the other lot had to remind everyone that they’re still around, that they aren’t about to be pushed to the margins and that the TTP isn’t the be-all and end-all of all things Islamist.

But why did Nawaz let them do it, on that scale, on his own turf?

He, or one of his eager minions, could have hit speed dial and said: Hafiz bhai, you are like a brother to us and a true patriot. All of Pakistan will always be grateful for the services you have rendered to the nation. Can we humbly ask for a small favour: please, keep your activities low key on Sunday? We will be truly grateful, Hafiz bhai.

Hell, they could have even come up with a ruse. Every other day, the Punjab government is rounding up kids and getting them to set some silly world record or the other.

It’s March 23. Take a few thousand of them to Minar-i-Pakistan and have them sing the national anthem while draped around the minar or bake the world’s largest cake shaped like the national flag or build a human pyramid in green and white.

And before that ring up Hafiz bhai and request him, humbly, to not steal the Punjab government’s thunder and to not compete on that day with essential politics.

But nothing of the sort happened. What did happen was that the man running Pakistan allowed the men who would like to run Pakistan to run around his province spewing hate and venom.

Paralysis? Drift? Looks more like capitulation, really.

The writer is a member of staff.

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Twitter: @cyalm