Indian Railways Thread

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SaiK
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SaiK »

I tried to login to indian railways, and I got this:
java.lang.ClassCastException: com.irctc.bean.LoginForm
at org.apache.struts.action.ActionServlet.processActionForm(ActionServlet.java:640)
at org.apache.struts.action.ActionServlet.process(ActionServlet.java:572)
at org.apache.struts.action.ActionServlet.doPost(ActionServlet.java:147)
at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:760)
at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853)
at com.broadvision.servlet.ServletContainer.service(ServletContainer.java:415)
at com.broadvision.servlet.ServletContainer.processRequest(ServletContainer.java:359)
at com.broadvision.servlet.ServletContextContainer.processRequest(ServletContextContainer.java:825)
at com.broadvision.servlet.BVServletEngine.service(BVServletEngine.java:255)
at com.broadvision.servlet.BVServletConnector.service(BVServletConnector.java:151)
we can visualize how the phuck the guys behind coded this.

and upon re-registration on lost account:
java.lang.ClassCastException: com.irctc.bean.RegistrationForm
Singha
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

I booked two tkts on sunday and two today on IR. its a terrible situation. logging in and finding your train is a hit or miss. session timeouts are common. even when it works takes forever. once you want to book, it clearly tags the payment gateways as silver and bronze . silver has 70% chance of success per their statement! payment also session times out or falsely claims I pressed the back/refresh button.
the system was probably never designed at its core for the amt of transactions its handling now, so workarounds and band aid fixes just about keep it operational but no more.

they can postpone day of reckoning, but ultimately there will be a meltdown day and no crisis team will be able to bring it back up.

they better build up a scalable cloud based system like ECS , with distributed booking sw, such that capacity can be incrementally added using VMs, distributed DB etc...and gradually use some sort of web load balancer to divert incoming sessions into this new infra until one day the old infra can be transparently retired off.
saip
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by saip »

IR never accepts my US issued VISA/Mastercard. Amex works if I find 'International Cards' Option which is 50% of the time. So last time around I have applied for a VISA from Kotak whcih seems to be the only bank that issues cards for OCIs. Let me see how it works when I come to India in July. The Netbank works except it is a multi step process for me. (Log in to your bank, enter trans ID, enter code from the back of debit card and finally enter the code you receive on your cell phone)

Otherwise I did not have a problem booking or finding trains etc. They have to do something about accepting payments
Singha
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

another bizarre thing is some options like citibank that offer OTP and netbank options in other merchant sites offer only OTP here. so spend 3/- on a SMS to get a OTP and key that in rather than use netbank login to get it done.

their booking and trainfinder sw is reliable and informative -no complaints there, but not built in mid 80s with 2014 scale in mind.

unlike our thieving airlines who only offer credit for cancellations, they have always been transparent and quick about refunds also.
habal
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by habal »

there are some guys in IT companies, whose main job is to hang around IRCTC, they always keep sessions open and are always booking tickets for themselves and everyone else (their team mates). All booking slots before major holidays and returns are always booked wholesale beforehand and cancelation happens at the due date before 4 days. They are constantly planning and plotting for their weekend trip back home and return but due to high speed internet access 24X7 for this group, they ensure servers during office hours are always clogged. Then there are just basically Tatkal tickets to deal with.
Singha
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

true that. there is a huge class of people within a overnight bus or train journey home. moment any fri/thu or mon/tue holiday comes they disappear enmasse. not sure if its just homesickness or the never ending search for a bride. for places with large immigrant pop like NCR , blr or chennai...problem is more.
Supratik
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

A new Govt should look at the railway sector afresh. While freight is undergoing modifications through DFC passenger segment needs fresh investments. I think it is time to separate current rail system from future system. I suggest two track approach. Fast passenger lines (150-200 km/hr) should be laid starting with major trunk routes to run modern trains and with modern systems. The trains can terminate at new stations built on the outskirts of cities. They should run modern trains - all AC on these new tracks and use the old tracks to run sleeper/second classes for aam admi passengers who cannot afford the new rates. High-speed rail should be done separately through PPP and depending on viability.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by darshhan »

Singha wrote:I booked two tkts on sunday and two today on IR. its a terrible situation. logging in and finding your train is a hit or miss. session timeouts are common. even when it works takes forever. once you want to book, it clearly tags the payment gateways as silver and bronze . silver has 70% chance of success per their statement! payment also session times out or falsely claims I pressed the back/refresh button.
the system was probably never designed at its core for the amt of transactions its handling now, so workarounds and band aid fixes just about keep it operational but no more.

they can postpone day of reckoning, but ultimately there will be a meltdown day and no crisis team will be able to bring it back up.

they better build up a scalable cloud based system like ECS , with distributed booking sw, such that capacity can be incrementally added using VMs, distributed DB etc...and gradually use some sort of web load balancer to divert incoming sessions into this new infra until one day the old infra can be transparently retired off.
Were you booking a Tatkal ticket? If so then better option would be to go through an agent(who has good setting at any of the Reservation counters). Internet reservation hardly ever works for Tatkal.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by darshhan »

Supratik wrote: I suggest two track approach. Fast passenger lines (150-200 km/hr) should be laid starting with major trunk routes to run modern trains and with modern systems. The trains can terminate at new stations built on the outskirts of cities.
+1. The only suggestion I have is that if you are building a fresh set of tracks for faster trains, then why limit the speed to 150-200 Kmph. Go directly to 250-300 kmph.

By the way High speed trains have another benefit. If you are operating trains with speed of 250-300 kmph, then for most of the routes in India you will not even need sleepers. If you can cover delhi to Mumbai in five hours, then a Chaircar is all you need. A chaircar will also give you extra capacity compared to normal sleeper. Plus many more trains will be able to complete the journey in any same duration of time period.

For the above service if tickets can be priced between Rs 2000-Rs 3000, it should be a success.
Supratik
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

I think hi-speed rail is capital intensive and judging from the China experience may "still" not be viable at least not on all routes. So it is perhaps best left to the private sector. OTOH, fast trains (150-200 kmph) with new tracks, trains and stations may be viable. We will continue to have a significant portion of poor people who need to travel by train. The existing system caters to their needs and should continue until they make the transition. However, from recent experience the existing system is quite horrible for middle class passengers and tourists. So the new segment with rates competitive with air-fares will cater to their needs.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Prasad »

More emphasis on maintenance of current coaches, bringing existing infra like bridges, tracks, more electrification, better stations, an alternative to $hitting on tracks, signal/communication infra. There are tons of stuff that we need to do rather than announce a hundred more trains each year. If we get these things in order, we can reduce time to destination for a lot of trains freeing up more space for more trains.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by krishnan »

Prasad wrote:More emphasis on maintenance of current coaches, bringing existing infra like bridges, tracks, more electrification, better stations, an alternative to $hitting on tracks, signal/communication infra. There are tons of stuff that we need to do rather than announce a hundred more trains each year. If we get these things in order, we can reduce time to destination for a lot of trains freeing up more space for more trains.
where will they get mullah for this ???? the 1st step is steep increase in price and make people pay for it , will govt do that. One way is to take out or reduce sleeper class for any travel less than 500-600 km , that way you can have more people traveling, its like night distance bus travel
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Public transport will have to paid by the government. There is public good to it esp. for folks in a crowded country like India. A steady investment ~ $20 Billion per year over 15-20 years ought to do it. At least build freight corridors, bypass cities, de-congest lines, speed up to average of 150-200 kmph. This should be doable on existing routes. At 150 kmph. Chennai-Bangalore is 2 hours. Chennai-mumbai is 6 hours and Chennai-Delhi is 10 hours. All day train type journeys.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

150kmph sustained is a tall order, esp given our thick population means the need for good number of stops. to make that up it will have to sustain 180kmph between stations.

there are 1000s of weak culverts and bridges that will need to be replaced to sustain a train going at 150kmph even. these will have to be fixed first on selected routes before service starts. "hub and spoke" works for small euro countries...one cannot haul someone from chennai to blr and ask them to take another spoke train back down to krishnagiri or vellore!

at present a lot cannot even sustain 100kmph, hence speed restrictions in many areas. eg Assam, there is no way in hell even 100kmph is safe on the high embankments and turnings on the IR lines in assam. one mistake and the train will fall into 10 feet deep water or field on either side.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

I don't think it is feasible to upgrade the existing system without causing enormous disruptions. Also land accessibility will be a problem near cities. It is better to build new system. The technology to run 150-200 kmph trains safely already exists for decades.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

150kmph throughout IR is not possible with the current funds availability and revenue model. I would be happy to see a 150kmph capable GQ route, similar to the GQ highway project launched by the NDA govt. This corridor should have 4 tracks - 2 fast (150kmph) and 2 slow(110 kmph), and trains can take the appropriate lines depending on their top speed. Even this would cost a lot, especially around places with gradients (Pune-Mumbai, Jolarpettai-Bangalore, to name a few) and congested city stations (Mumbai, Chennai, etc.). But it is doable if a visionary is appointed as railway minister, who is unafraid of taking tough decisions and increasing fares (at least to break even). The GQ corridors could also allow faster clearance of freight trains due to more running slots, increasing their average speeds from the current 25 or so km per hour, not to mention increased productivity due to shorter travel times for passengers.

A cheaper method is to just add more lines along existing corridors that face severe congestion - Kanpur-Mughalsarai, or Raipur-Kharagpur, Delhi-Mathura for instance, without doing the upgrade to 150 work. At least, this would reduce congestion, allowing more trains to run at faster and closer to their max speed, compared to the current stop - max speed - slow - stop pattern. This has the potential of increasing average speed and reducing travel time. For instance, increasing the TN express average speed from the current 66 to 75kmph will shave off a good 5 hours of travel time end to end.

I don't think the DFC will solve all freight woes - there are several congested lines that outside of the Mumbai - Delhi - Kolkata routes.

A separate HSR will cost too much, and be unviable at this point. Maybe in a decade, after we have sustained and real growth.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by chaitanya »

What about simpler and potentially cheaper things to improve speed and reliability, like modern signaling? What would the performance boost be with such a system in place? I remember quite a few years back there was some program launched in partnership with some IITs to develop some desi railway technologies and whatnot. What happened to that? Also what about creating electrified fences and the like around major tracks to prevent animals and humans from crossing the tracks? This should increase speed at night, fog, etc. Or is all of this just not going to cut it
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by chaitanya »

arshyam wrote: A cheaper method is to just add more lines along existing corridors that face severe congestion - Kanpur-Mughalsarai, or Raipur-Kharagpur, Delhi-Mathura for instance, without doing the upgrade to 150 work. At least, this would reduce congestion, allowing more trains to run at faster and closer to their max speed, compared to the current stop - max speed - slow - stop pattern. This has the potential of increasing average speed and reducing travel time. For instance, increasing the TN express average speed from the current 66 to 75kmph will shave off a good 5 hours of travel time end to end.
Along these lines, it might also be cheaper for some routes to create short 'overtaking' sections. An overtaking section would be similar to what is there in the US for two-lane roads where you are not allowed to overtake the car in front until a specially designated, three lane section is reached that allows you to overtake the slower car. Many times that I have been on some slow/low priority/delayed train which just gets halted repeatedly to let others pass... this seems like an excessive waste of time and probably compounds delays. Similarly, an additional track for slower/delayed trains could be created for short stretches along some routes to move to allow a faster train to bypass it. This would definitely rely on good signaling and good designing (you want to minimize overtaking sections while still providing a speed boost). Eventually, with more funding, these short 3-track stretches could be converted into an additional track.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Theo_Fidel »

The way Japan runs its system is the 150 kmph inter-cities are complemented by the same trains running to regional stops @ 100 kmph.

I think people are being too attached to the shoddy IR system and are ignoring the possibilities of what is meant by day trains.

At 150 kmph day train there will be NO sleepers. Ergo there will be no 3 months ahead booking. Trains between Chennai and Bengluru will leave every 10 minutes from the station. No more specials, expresses, mails, etc Two hours to Bangalore, 1 hour to clean and two back to Chennai. Each rake will make the trip 4-5 times a day! Capacities will be lower. About 1000 pax per rake of about 8 coaches. The present 24-26 coach rake will be broken into 3 separate trains. Quick start acceleration and stops. If you miss the 8:20 just wait and catch the 8:30. Trains to Mumbai will leave every 30 minutes. To Delhi every hour or 2 hours, so on an so forth. Sub regional trains will run on third/fourth line at slower 100 kmph speeds from local stops. Say Madurai to Dindigul every hour or so. If there isn't enough ridership. 6 coach rakes can be interspersed. If more ridership, increase frequency maybe an occasional 16 coach rake, but acceleration will be slower.

No more struggling with voluminous and crazy train schedule or stupid website. Go to station buy ticket leave on train 20 minutes later. This is how the rest of the world by and large does it. Only India is committed to the shortage economy and the IR printed schedule. To the death it appears like.... :roll: (sarc on)

Existing lines can be fairly quickly upgraded. The engineering is very well understood. Replace culverts with standardized box culvert. You can replace in a 4-6 hours with a skilled mechanized crew. Indian 5'6" broad gauge means technically we can run even faster and remain stable. The shaking embankment is more due to shoddy engineering and compaction. A properly engineered mud embankment can be as stable as rock.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

what would be your estimate of the costs involved in replacing all these old culverts and bridges?
not that I am against it, infact I strongly support it , both to tone up railways and and to boost the cement and steel demand...if done under local production.

without good quality tracks, any signaling or rake improvements are just band aids over a bad sore.

if Namo comes to power, someone like Sreedharan or BC khanduri should be given key portfolios like railways, steel and all projects fast tracked.

so far IR is just a job creation engine - mostly for Bihar - given the sheer number of railway mins from that state.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Sachin »

Singha wrote:so far IR is just a job creation engine - mostly for Bihar - given the sheer number of railway mins from that state.
Yeah. And when Shri Laloo had his previous stint at RM, we had folks from Bihar manning enquiry counters at Kerala. And they could not speak a word of Malayalam. I don't know if it was a firm belief that "Hindi is the national language, and all railway inquiries across India have to be made in Shudh Hindi" allowed this to happen.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

At IR rate of functioning to replace the existing system with 150-200 km trains you have to shut down the system for considerable periods of time which IMO is not viable. Better to create new system which runs parallel like DFC up till cities where it needs to diverge to new stations. Existing system will be used for low paying passengers and lower speeds.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

there are some non-rajdhani fully AC trains on IR, like a delhi-dehradun daily train.
one strategy to attract more breakeven paying pax could be increase the number of such trains , reduce the number of stops to be on par with rajdhani and start giving them more priority like the rajdhanis....between all the major cities. improve the catering. use the latest model rakes we make. provide wifi and good security.

air travel is not cheap these days and good trains will find a market.

back in my days the TN (exp chennai-delhi) and coromandel exp(chennai-howrah) were supposed to be among fastest non-rajdhani trains in the land. I wonder if anything has changed in improved timing in the 20 yrs since I left college...
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

[quote=Singha]one strategy to attract more breakeven paying pax could be increase the number of such trains[/quote]
Singha sir, that was supposedly addressed by Didi's Durontos. But the concept was not flexible and not applicable everywhere. Running without commercial stops from Trivandrum to Delhi, but not taking any intermediate passengers means a recipe for a loss making endeavour. Some Durontos have been downgraded to AC expresses, similar to the example you mentioned, and are taking intermediate passengers. At the same time, cities such as Pune and Bangalore have benefited by these trains, as they have been provided good connectivity that was not there earlier. For example, both of these cities now have very popular Durontos to Howrah, and IR seems to make good money on these since they are all AC.

Another good concept being tried out are the premium AC specials between Mumbai and Delhi - these are Rajdhani class, all AC, limited halts, great priority, and flexible fares. Given the demand on this route, this train will be money spinner when it runs. Granted, the dynamic fare algorithm needs some tweaking, but is overall a good concept to make extra revenue.

[quote=Singha]back in my days the TN (exp chennai-delhi) and coromandel exp(chennai-howrah) were supposed to be among fastest non-rajdhani trains in the land. I wonder if anything has changed in improved timing in the 20 yrs since I left college[/quote]
TN has been speeded up by 2 hours or so in each direction, and has more or less retained its halt pattern. Coro has also maintained its timings to a great extent, but is saddled with more halts than before. I have not travelled by Coro, but speaking for TN, I can say that it still runs with the highest priority on this route for a non-Rajdhani type train, so runs to time more often than not. Given the amount of congestion and explosive traffic growth on this sector in the past 20 years, that is saying something.

I think the problem isn't enough trains, there are enough trains, but they are not well distributed. This is compounded by poor infra which increases rail congestion. IMHO, the next Rail minister should announce a 2 year moratorium on new trains and just concentrate on adding infra, and increasing average speeds of passenger and goods trains.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

btw the delhi dehradun AC exp that starts at either end midnight daily has the same running time as the daily shatabdi express on same route. you wont get food, but you get to lie down and sleep.

if a dedicated good trains line could be built parallel to all double track long haul routes, pax trains would enjoy better avg speeds for sure. that delhi-mumbai, delhi-kolkata corridors will do that, but needs to be done countrywide incl in places like kerala, north east and TN which has a LOT of people travelling to diff parts by train.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

Singha wrote:btw the delhi dehradun AC exp that starts at either end midnight daily has the same running time as the daily shatabdi express on same route. you wont get food, but you get to lie down and sleep.
Sounds a lot like the Chennai-Bangalore mail. It runs slower just so it doesn't reach way too early at the destination. There have been times I have left Bangalore after 11, and arrived in Chennai at 0400 - just as fast as the Shatabdi. In fact, the Shatabadis can be easily speeded by an hour - only line congestion prevents it. And this route has a max speed of only 110kmph, the Shatabdi coaches are 160 capable. So, there is a lot of scope for improvement.
Singha wrote:if a dedicated good trains line could be built parallel to all double track long haul routes, pax trains would enjoy better avg speeds for sure. that delhi-mumbai, delhi-kolkata corridors will do that, but needs to be done countrywide incl in places like kerala, north east and TN which has a LOT of people travelling to diff parts by train.
Exactly. I think IR needs to revise the standards that a double line is enough for a section with heavy freight+pass traffic. Instead, IR should aim for quad tracks wherever possible, and 6 lines in suburban sections. 2 for freight, 2 for passenger expresses, and 2 (suburban) for local trains. Run trains at regular intervals, run them at a high speed, it will transform the economy. More tracks will also allow more slow passenger trains that stop at smaller hinterland stations, providing much needed connectivity with reliability. We need to solve the problem of packing hundreds of passengers like sardines in the unreserved coaches - only solution is to run more trains to cater for them. It will also reduce the problem of encroachment of unreserved passengers in reserved compartments.

Another option to build the tracks in a way that in each direction, there is a fast and a slow track, with regularly spaced 50/70kmph turnouts between them. All tracks serve all traffic, only criteria is speed. A slower train takes the slower track, and so on. The turnouts will enable quick switching between these tracks, allowing for on-the-run overtakes. Another member posted this earlier too - to have overtaking sections - I am saying, just have dedicated tracks for the entire route. So let's say, a reasonably fast express train is on the fast line, overtaking goods and slow passenger trains. A Rajdhani type shows up from behind, so the express takes the next turnout, and switches to the slow line, continues running at 110 or so, while the Raj goes past at 150. The express can switch back to the fast at the next opportunity. In the current scenario, the express train would be looped to a stop, and waste 15-20 mins for every such overtake. Computers can help with efficient section controlling, packing in more train slots for efficient utilization. This will also allow staggered maintenance, so any one track in a direction is always operational, which is a problem with scheduling new trains today. These turn outs are not fictional, there is one such high speed turnout somewhere in the Mathura-Delhi 3 line section, so we have the tech. All we need is money for capital investments. This will pay off in the long run, because passenger traffic is only going to increase, and IR should try to keep as many of them as possible. It will also keep freights moving at higher average speeds, and IR can start gaining back market share from road transport.

Theo sir felt many people are attached to the existing shoddy network - that is true. But I would submit that the existing network is too extensive to ignore, and we cannot possibly build a new high speed network throughout the country, not right away at least. Strengthening the existing network and eliminating the shoddy aspect will make a good RoI to many aspects of the economy, as well as addressing the social obligation of rural connectivity, which is very important, since many states don't have good bus networks even today.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Arshyam,

I have one question for you.
Why should two trains on the same track have different speeds and priorities?
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Klaus »

Not sure if this Sep 2012 article has been posted before, here goes:

Russian LNG powered locomotives (GTEL's) headed to India
the RZD and OBORONPROM began to prepare for the Indian tender. In Samara they are sure that the world leader in this sphere is Kuznetsov Bureau and the RZD is the sole owner of a gas turbine-electric locomotive that can meet the requirements of the Indian Railways fully. According to informed sources, the Indian party is ready to finance the development activities aimed at adapting the power unit of the Russian GTEL to hot climatic conditions.
Only two questions still remain open: the creation of the requisite infrastructure to provide GTELs with fuel and the capacity of Samara engine plants to produce the necessary quantity of power units (RZD will need up to 200 machines, Indian Railways – up to 300).

The LNG-powered locomotives may take some time to come to India. The Indian Railways will be testing these machines for the next two-three years at least. Kuznetsov, United Engine Corporation and OBORONPROM have, therefore, some time to organise a full-fledged production of engines for the new unique Russian locomotives.

The Russian government has made a decision to strengthen the group of strategic bombers Tu-160 (White Swan), pacing the way for the resumption of the production of NK-32 engines in Samara. “It is most profitable from the economic point of view to produce engines based on a single gas generator. The one of NK-361 is much alike the one on NK-32. Now we are reorganising our production to resume making and repairing NK-32 engines for the needs of strategic air force. “Correspondingly, this very production will be aimed at making engines for GTELs as well,” says Dmitry Fedorchenko, Chief Designer of OJSC Kuznetsov.

In addition, the enterprise plans to produce gears for power generating and gas pumping units with the power of up to 32 MW and aircraft engines with 30 tonnes of thrust (it may be installed, for example, in the largest cargo aircrafts – Ruslans) based on the single gas generator. This will take more than one year. But RZD needs only 40 GTELs till 2020.
Bolded portion is also very encouraging for SFC, it means spares for Blackjacks may be more easily procured, which makes a Blackjack purchase/lease that much more easier. Also interesting possibilities open up when one considers Kaveri engine's utility in the mix.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Arshyam,

I have one question for you.
Why should two trains on the same track have different speeds and priorities?
Theo sir, simple answer is: it is a function of the type of train on the tracks.

The detail is somewhat long, so please bear with me.

IR runs different types of trains with a varied rake mix:
Rajdhani: these are fully AC trains, so their max permissible speed (MPS) is 160 kmph.
Expresses: these are mixed coach rakes (AC+non AC), so their MPS is only 110. With new coaches, this can go up to 130. They are still limited by wind drag in non-AC coaches. Within this category, there are the following:
  1. Long distance super fast express trains (granted, they are not that fast by world standards) which focus on the end to end traffic. Consequently, they have less stops, and can be thought of a mixed rake Rajdhani. For example, TN exp, AP exp, etc. MPS:110.
  2. Long distance super fast express trains, which also focus on intermediate traffic. Consequently, they have more halts on the way. For example, GT exp, Howrah mail. MPS:110.
  3. Long distance regular express trains: These are not super fast, so charge a slightly lesser fare, and also stop at a lot of intermediate stations. For example: Andaman exp, East Coast Exp. MPS:110.
  4. Local passenger trains: These sorely serve the social mandate of IR and provide rural connectivity, so stop at almost all wayside stations. MPS:110.
  5. Suburban EMU trains: They serve the periphery of cities, and usually stop at all suburban stations (except fast services). MPS:80-100.
Goods: Depending on the type of cargo, their MPS can vary. An iron ore rake will run slower than a parcel cargo train, simply because of the effort taken for braking from a higher speed will be more for a heavier ore train. Also, heavier trains need multiple locos, and in case of electrics, our system is set up for only 110kmph max with multiple locos, due to oscillation issues in the overhead catenary equipment. MPS: 70-110.

Note: MPS is limited by track conditions as well, so usually is the lowest of loco MPS/rake MPS/track MPS. I have called out only the rake MPS above.

Some factors affecting speed and priority:
Time/Halts:
Now the MPS for a train is one thing, but can all trains run at their max speed? If they don't have many stops, sure, it is easy to maintain speed at a constant level. In fact, from an energy consumption PoV, it is preferable. So, Rajdhanis and the category 1 of expresses usually run at their MPS, and don't block trains behind them. Categories 2-4 can also run at MPS, subject to their halts. If their halts are too close by, then they will accelerate to a lower speed before arriving at the next halt. And each halt means time to slow down + accelerate. And chances are, these trains have enough stops that invariably a faster train shows up from behind, so the latter gets priority and overtakes the slower train. An exception are the suburban trains, with their lower MPS. They almost always get higher priority over any other train, due to commuter pressure. Within cities, that is another headache for the section controller.

Energy:
With local passenger trains, the halts might be so innumerable and close to each other that it is not efficient to go all the way up to 110. For goods, that is the same: a heavier rake will need time to accelerate and brake, and will require a lot of energy to do both. Plus, as I had said above, they are also limited by the number locos dedicated to the rake. So, it may just be efficient to run at an easier balancing speed for the loco, usually 70-80 and try to keep the speed as long as possible.

Fare: A premium train such as Rajdhani charges are higher fare, so the customer can expect a higher level of service. This is true for catering as well as scheduling. Since a passenger has forked over extra cash, he gets priority treatment in case of delays or congestion. Hence, Rajdhanis get to overtake any train on their path when out of schedule. Superfast express trains charges a surcharge over ordinary fares, the idea being that this surcharge gets priority treatment compared to a regular express. So the express train pecking order goes in the order listed, TN gets to overtake GT, the latter overtakes Andaman (non super fast), Andaman might over take some passenger train, and so on. Goods trains also have a pecking order, and they are actually interleaved with passenger trains. There are dedicated ConRaj trains (container Rajdhani) that are higher fare high priority trains that get right of way over most passenger trains. They run at 100-110.

So the answer is a mix of the above: depending on the train's clientele, the halt pattern is decided, and schedule is drawn up. Depending on accommodation, the rake is allocated, which has an assigned MPS. Depending on fare class, the priorities are assigned. In the end, the controller takes all of these into account and schedules trains in his section.

The above is not written in stone, but since we are limited by the space on tracks and a huge number of trains everyday, these issues crop up. A lot of the above can indeed be simplified by building more tracks, newer rolling stock and improving infrastructure overall.

This was an involved reply, but I hope it answered your query.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

thanks for the informative reply. I was totally unaware of the ConRaj trains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7arBtxkQJTw
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SaiK »

recent desh visit travelling in what called super fast expresses... man! feel very dangerous on existing track.. as it is, the near 100+kmph makes these bogies go nearly out of track or at the very least you would think about your survival to the next station is in question.. i can't just think about speed boost.

regarding facilties, please lalloo desh indian railways must seriously invest in advancing the bathroom and restroom facilities inside trains. go advanced systems, drdo has already done prototypes.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Klaus »

Singha wrote:thanks for the informative reply. I was totally unaware of the ConRaj trains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7arBtxkQJTw
Container Rajdhanis are an effective template for trains to be run on the DFC. However, a current shortcoming is the lack of a fuel driven loco equivalent to the WAG 9. One hopes that advances to WDG 5 or a future GTEL will bring about proper equivalents for non-electrified lines.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Arshyam,

Thanx for that detailed post. You have obviously thought on the issue. What you describe is the situation as it stands. A mish mash of all types of trains running on the same lines. This is not different from the modern India roadway with cycle, auto, car, pedestrian, occasional pedal/push cart, truck, van, etc all driving on the same road. Few successful modern rail systems run this way. Even the USA the vast majority of traffic is slow goods trains and the occasional Amtrak is unable to move very fast.

The most efficient use of assets is to streamline the speeds and types so all trains travel at the same speeds and priorities. The railways will find that a large chunk of small stations and loop lines are non-viable and don’t generate enough traffic to require a full station. There should not be a station more than every 30-40 km on main lines. Trains are not efficient at distances less than this. Buses, cars, taxis are far more efficient at short ranges. Mixed rail traffic should be moved off the mainlines onto loop lines and interconnected branch-lines, bypasses etc. Coal trains should not be running on passenger lines. The Conraj alone can probably stay on the passenger lines but should be same speed and priority as passenger trains.

This sort of arrangement will easily increase passenger capacity 4-5 times and get more productivity out of the same number of coaches.

IR has done a great job transporting billions of folks are very very low cost. But the time for the next stage is upon us…..
-------------------------------------

Klaus,

There are physical limitations to going much beyond 4000 HP with the existing wheel load/form factor/IC design limitations. The GE AC6000 had trouble with chassis cracks and uptime and durability. 6000 HP IC engine was literally shaking the units apart.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Klaus »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
There are physical limitations to going much beyond 4000 HP with the existing wheel load/form factor/IC design limitations. The GE AC6000 had trouble with chassis cracks and uptime and durability. 6000 HP IC engine was literally shaking the units apart.
True of existing track-work with indeterminate quality & scarce ongoing reliability regimes, I guess. IMO, a 7-8 MW locomotive can indeed do wonders for India's BG infra, including the option to provide (emergency) power to villages while standing still. Quite possible that attendant benefits for track infra might quickly follow induction of such high-power locos. One possible move could be separation of the rail-track infra into a separate organization, similar in structure & function to the Australian Rail Track Corporation (ARTC).

Additionally, I was thinking from the perspective of freight haulage capacity of a single high-powered loco rather than having 2 or more locos owing to many of the same problems (as well as NVH issues) you've mentioned in your post.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

Does IR operate any diesel locomotives with more than 6000hp ? My most recent recollection is WDG5 with 5500hp, while the most powerful overall is the electric WAG9 with ~6400hp . There was some talk a few years ago of ToT for ~10-12000hp locos, but have not read anything new on that.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

^^ There is a plan to import Japanese high horsepower loco technology, I think around 8000HP, for the DFC lines.
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Post by Suraj »

I wasn't aware Japan had any high HP diesel locomotives. They're masters with electric traction, but I couldn't find anything on high HP diesel locos they currently operate. Are the DFCs supposed to be electric traction ? If so, yes, the Japanese have several alternatives like the 8000hp EF500
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Singha »

Delccu and delmum are electrified for long.

in up Bihar belt and some parts like Andhra, trains are heavily used for short travel.
not all states are like tn with thick internal bus routes.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by arshyam »

Suraj wrote:I wasn't aware Japan had any high HP diesel locomotives. They're masters with electric traction, but I couldn't find anything on high HP diesel locos they currently operate. Are the DFCs supposed to be electric traction ? If so, yes, the Japanese have several alternatives like the 8000hp EF500
Yes, both are planned as electrified lines.

http://dfccil.org/dfccil_app/home.jsp
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

Thanks, arshyam.
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