Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Two major reports on Scamthony's anti-national acts of deliberately sabotaging critical acquisitions and the state of the IN's warships,short of urgent spares.His acts of omission and commission should be subject to a parliamentary inquiry as they are blatantly anti-national and tantamount to treason.Even our worst enemies couldn't have done as much damage to India's security as the so-called "Saint" has achieved during his almost decade long tenure as India's "Deaf Min."

http://m.newindianexpress.com/nation/289860
Major Warships Crippled by Lack of Spares for Upgrades
Posted on April 6, 2014
N C Bipindra

India’s major warships are facing a shortage of spare parts for their normal, medium and short refit programmes that might explain the regular accidents, including equipment failures that have happened in recent times.

India’s major warships are facing a shortage of spare parts for their normal, medium and short refit programmes that might explain the regular accidents, including equipment failures that have happened in recent times.

For all warships, particularly those of Russian origin, only 50 per cent spares are available with the Mumbai and Visakhapatnam naval dockyards for their refits. These are much below the demand for spares and have resulted in delays in the refit programmes or in low satisfaction levels after the refits. These refits are usually midlife upgrades of the warships, required to make these modern fighting machines last longer than their envisaged service life that could extend from 20 to 30 years.

In the 37 warships recently audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) for refit performance, it was found that lack of spare parts hit the midlife upgrades, including those of key surface combatants.

Among the warships hit include the Delhi class and Rajput class mainline Destroyers; amphibious warships such as the recently inducted INS Jalashwa bought from the US in 2007, apart from Gharial and Magar; and the Talwar class frigates built at a Russian shipyard.

Among those audited included those involved in recent accidents/incidents reported since August 2013, including INS Talwar, INS Vipul and INS Konkan.

A minor fire was reported on board INS Konkan, a minesweeper, when it was under a refit programme at the Visakhapatnam naval dockyard in early December 2013. INS Vipul, a corvette/missile vessel, reported a gaping hole found in the pillar compartment in late 2013.

Though the CAG audit has not directly linked the incidents involving the three warships in the last seven months to the lack of spares, the report submitted by the government auditor to the Parliament in February points towards the lack of best practices for maintenance of key strategic assets of the Navy and the Defence Ministry establishments in charge of procurements.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 0C7S3apNig
Antony's Red Flag on Deals to Slow Bullish Successors
By N C Bipindra | ENS - NEW DELHI

Published: 06th April 2014
India’s 13.1-lakh strong armed forces may be waiting for the new government in May to sign key defence deals, but the Defence Ministry under the present UPA regime seems to be working to make that difficult.

At least three of the five major deals – cumulatively worth over Rs 1.2 lakh crore – that are almost ready and waiting to be signed have been pushed into controversies. The Defence Ministry, under A K Antony, has raised red flags and ordered inquiries into these deals, which could raise a political stink whenever these are signed.

The latest to come under the scanner is the Indian Air Force’s bid to buy six European Airbus-330 MRTT midair refuelers, said to be worth Rs 7,500 crore. The deal was ready to be signed after India had selected the Airbus platform against the Russian Ilyushin-78s tankers in the early part of 2013.

But now, after a Member of Parliament wrote to the Defence Minister complaining that the Airbus is facing a Central Bureau of Investigation probe in a nearly three-decade-old case in a civil aviation deal, Antony has ordered the procurement file for the Airbus-330 MRTT to be sent to the Law Ministry for an opinion, say officials.

This is the second time the midair refueler tender is facing rough weather.

In the case of the pro spective Rs 1-lakh-crore tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) too, the deal has come under a cloud after Antony said in February this year that “questions have been raised over the offsets proposals” from French firm Dassault Aviation, the winner of the deal.

The MMRCA deal was almost ready, but could not be signed by the UPA II Government in the 2013-14 fiscal due to a crunch for funds. Now, this combat planes deal would be signed by the next government soon after it takes over in May. But with Antony raising questions over the offsets proposal from Dassault Aviation, the signing of the deal, whenever it happens, would definitely face questions from whichever party is in opposition at the time.

Offsets in defence deals worth over Rs 300 crore would mandate the plough back of at least 30 per cent of the contract amount in the Indian defence, aerospace and internal security industry by the winner of the deal. The offset clause in military deals is an instrument used by governments worldwide to energise their domestic defence industry.

In the case of MMRCA, a 50 per cent offset has been fixed for the tender winner Dassault Aviation. But the proposals made by the company for offset implementation had “discrepancies” that are now being looked into, Defence Ministry sources said.

The third deal to come under a probe in the last few months is the `8,000-crore tender for 197 Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) in which the European Airbus Helicopters’ AS550C3 Fennec is the lowest bidder against Russia’s Kamov KA-226T
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Fire reported on INS Matanga - too many fires breaking out at Mazgaon- one too many.Strict investigations for 5th columnists required.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Image

INS Matanga
So far no causalities and fire put out as per reports

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 53268.html
Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

looks like a very elderly ship...more like a fishing trawler than a proper warship. does not look capable of long distance ops...a coastal minesweeper?
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Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Peregrine »

Singha wrote:looks like a very elderly ship...more like a fishing trawler than a proper warship. does not look capable of long distance ops...a coastal minesweeper?
Singha Ji :

It is mopre like a Deep Sea - Ocean Towage & Salvage Tug - It has a Heavy Lift Derrick possibly for lifting heavy salvaged items :

Fire breaks out on INS Matanga, no casualty
The fire broke out onboard Matanga, an ocean-going tug capable to towing two large vessels out of the harbour, during welding on the ship, Navy officials said.
Cheers Image
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:looks like a very elderly ship...more like a fishing trawler than a proper warship. does not look capable of long distance ops...a coastal minesweeper?

Fires during welding etc are fairly common and there is always a safety crew positioned nearby to react quickly.

Such mundane matters are being needlessly highlighted because there is a tremendous negative focus on the IN right now.

Such needless focus, sad to say, has been brought about by the sundry acts of commission and omission by the IN itself.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by titash »

A pretty decent introduction to SOSUS (specially near the 25 minute mark) and why the Arihant better have a decent level of quieting and propeller design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDdEq6GGCEo
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

could not understand why retired vikrant can't be used for museum. what conditions are minimal for a museum? they sold for scrap at 60 crores, and they might not get that from museum that much eh!? so it is all about money, and nothing about history?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

Oh well, this cat is really out of the bag. Good to see India cutting the fabric to meet her requirements (or whatever that is):
But India has made no secret of its dissatisfaction with the delays and cost overruns associated with the carrier, as well as Russia’s support of the many Russian weapons systems already purchased.
Paging Ser Philip.
India already uses Israel’s Barak 1 missile system for anti-ship missile defense and is considering the much more capable Barak 8. Indian sources say that the Israeli systems are more expensive than their Russian counterparts but have proven more effective and reliable. Israeli tech support is also far superior to what the Russians offer.
So, expense is really not a part of the calculus, it seems.

Reading in-between and connecting the dots, I am inclined to think that IF IN had to reboot they would have taken a totally different route.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

actually even barak1 has been deemed too costly for fitting on all ships so we went back to using the locally made ak-630 guns on few ships and no SRSAM.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

If I can shed a little light on the Barak episode.Aeons ago,tall claims were made about a certain desi magic missile called Trishul,a tri-service requirement,which was supposed to be our magic bullet against any sea-skimmer.However,the DRDO couldn't "walk the talk" and time after time the missile failed spectacularly.As a result of this fiasco,the follow-on G class,the Brahmaputra and her sister frigates were commissioned without any BPDMS!

The IN however had a plan B in hand,to acquire the reputed Barak-1,a missile in service with Israel and other navies.A senior naval officer visited Israel,evaluated the same and said that it was vastly superior to Trishul,for which he was meanly shafted by vested desi interests who still wanted to dump a useless Trishul upon the IN.What happened? Trishul was eventually dumped into the Indian Ocean,the poor honest upright officer retired,Barak was acquired and installed in almost all major warships and the Viraat. However,it still is a last ditch defensive measure against air threats which have already penetrated the outer air defences. A sinister campaign was then instigated against the deal and Uncle George,Def. Min. at the time was pilloried for the same.No wrongdoing was eventually found.

The Shtil SAM which has been acquired for the major DDGs and FFGs,Delhi and Talwar classes,which have much Russian input,are medium ranged SAMs.For its future capital ships the IN wanted a longer ranged SAM and strangely went in for an unproven missile on the drawing board,the Barak-8,in some sort of a JV,where we have helped pay for the missile's development only to find that the Israeli's ,like the DRDO,haven;t walked the talk either! Firstly,there was no competition for the missile when the excellent Aster series is/was available,and if we wanted a longer 1ookm range they could've been tweaked too. With US wares also available,we could've even acquired/asked for the Std. SM-3 ,which also has some ABM capability.

The upshot is that while Israel has just inducted the missile into its service,we have to wait for a few more years before it becomes available to us,at least a 3-4 yr. delay,which would've been even worse if the Delhi follow-on Kolkatta class DDGs were not themselves delayed by 3 years too! The IN made no plan B for the Barak-8.History will repeat itself when the first K class DDG is commissioned just like the Brahmaputra without its principal air defence SAM! The IN/MOD had enough time to acquire and install a universal missile launcher,available from both east and western sources,and use the Shtil SAM for the moment until B-8 arrived. Add to the failure of having a plan B at hand has been the dereliction of duty of Scamthony.It was just recently that in dire need of re-equipping its warships with new Barak-1 ,a decision was finally taken at the eleventh hour before even the old Barak rounds became unusable. Where the blame lies now is anyone's guess,as generally Indo-Israeli deals and issues rarely make it to the public domain.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Sid »

^^ Philip, are you sure we could have bought Aster or SM3?

They were never on the offer. MBDA has offered VL Mica and Amrikies none. Forget SM, we could have gone for Seasparrow or ESSM but none was on the table.

And how we can switch to Plan B when your primary weapon suit contains MF-Star. Will it work with SM or Aster series?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28526 »

And what stage of development is the Barak-8 now at?
Some say the missile is ready but DRDO defaulted in integrating it to the combat system and that this will now take time. Is this true?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Philip wrote:If I can shed a little light on the Barak episode.Aeons ago,tall claims were made about a certain desi magic missile called Trishul,a tri-service requirement,which was supposed to be our magic bullet against any sea-skimmer.
But Karan M has explained few times how Trishul lessons were useful to create Akash kinds of missiles. So Trishul experiment was successful one.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by A Sharma »

Submarine accident: Top Navy officer may face court martial
Meanwhile, the Eastern Navy Command has ordered a board of inquiry into the loss of a torpedo during trials off the Vishakhapatnam coast recently.

The inquiry is being done to put on record the loss of the trial torpedo being developed by Kazakhstan, Navy officials said.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Perhaps there was some experience to be gained from Trishul,but not the main priority,to field a tri-service missile,which as of now has still not materialised either desi or firang. B-8 is according to our very own MOD,4.5 yrs. late!

Did we ever ask for either Aster or SMs? MDA did offer/showcase Aster-30 to us.The US has been pro-active in selling us their wares,esp. naval items.Aegis was touted at one time if I recall ,here is the report,from DefenseWorld.net:
Q : What cutting edge technologies will Lockheed Martin bring to India as part of its offsets requirement?

Roger Rose : We are in touch with the Indian MoD regarding the Indian Navy’s consideration of the world’s most advanced shipboard Weapons System, the Aegis Combat System (ACS). The US Navy has briefed the Indian Navy on the capabilities of the world's premier area air defense combat system; other Asia Pacific navies operating Aegis systems are Japan, South Korea and Australia. Lockheed Martin and Hyundai Heavy Industries also included the Aegis CMS concept when answering the Project 17A RFI.
Some info on the B-8 deal:http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... sam-03461/
Over a development timeline measured in decades, India’s indigenous “Akash” and “Trishul” programs for surface to air missiles have failed to inspire full confidence. Trishul was eventually canceled entirely. Akash had a a long, difficult development period, but seems to have found customer acceptance and a solid niche in the rugged terrain of the northeast. India still needed longer-range advanced SAMs to equip its navy and army, however, and decided to try to duplicate the success of the partnership model that had fielded the excellent Indo-Russian PJ-10 BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.
Dec 17/13: Update. India’s Ministry of Defense provides updates regarding a number of DRDO projects, including LR-SAM. The development program’s original delivery target was May 2011, but the Probable Date of Completion is now December 2015: 4 1/2 years late, and well after it becomes fully operational in Israel. Sources: India MoD, “DRDO Projects”.
Israel Aerospace Industries will be the key partner, and will contribute most of the applicable technology, just as Russia did for the BrahMos by offering its SS-N-26 Oniks missile as the base platform. 2011 Barak-8 materials show Indian firms contributing the dual-pulse rocket motor, associated motor arming/safing mechanisms, and the pneumatic actuation system. On the other hand, India Defence reports that IAI and its Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India.

The LR-SAM project is now slated for completion by December 2015, which would be about a decade from its 2005 project approval to fielding. Israel will be ahead of that schedule, as they began steps to field Barak-8 in their navy by mid-2013.
India’s Navy has decided as a matter of policy that it will only mount medium-long range surface-to-air missile systems on future warships, ...
Hence the 2006 Barak-NG naval agreement, which gives India an upgraded version of a familiar system, extends India’s technological capabilities, fosters economic ties and integration at sub-component levels, and helps the Israelis build a new system that meets some of their own emerging requirements. The new system would reportedly have a range of 50-60 km.
Dec 23/13: DAC OK. AK Antony and the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) clear the Indian Navy’s intent to buy 262 more Barak-1 missiles, in order to replenish their fast-dwindling stocks. The paper adds:

“The naval LR-SAM, approved in December 2005, is now slated for completion by December 2015. The MR-SAM project, sanctioned in February 2009, in turn, has a “probable date of completion” by August 2016.”

Sources: Times of India, “Antony finally clears long-pending controversial deal for Israeli Barak missiles.”
The MR-SAM<based upon the B-8,is reported to be the largest ever JV project we've signed on for:
Indian sources estimated a 4-year, $300 million System Design & Development phase to develop unique system elements, and produce an initial tranche of the land-based missiles. As of its approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security in July 2007, MR-SAM surpassed the BrahMos project in size, and may be the largest joint defense development project ever undertaken between India and any other country.
Supposed to be finished around 2016.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

The shape of things that have come! Where are our visionary designs for the future?

US Navy christens huge $3 billion destroyer ship USS Zumwalt that appears as a fishing boat on enemy radar
The USS Zumwalt is described as a 'modern marvel'
Antonia Molloy
Sunday 13 April 2014

The US Navy on Saturday christened the first of its newest class of destroyers – the more than $3 billion (£1.8 billion), 610-foot (186-metre)-long USS Zumwalt.

Named after the late Admiral Elmo “Bud” Zumwalt, the warship sports advanced technology and a stealthy shape designed to minimise its visibility on enemy radar and reduce the size of its crew.

Among the 15,000-tonne destroyer's cutting-edge features are a composite deckhouse with hidden radar and sensors and an angular shape that officials say will allow it to be confused for a small fishing boat on radars. It also has a wave-piercing hull designed to reduce the ship's wake.

It's the first US ship to use electric propulsion and produces enough power to one day support the futuristic electromagnetic rail gun, which will be tested at sea in 2016.

Rail guns fire a projectile at six or seven times the speed of sound – enough velocity to cause severe damage. The Navy sees them as replacing or supplementing old-school guns.

In the future, it could also be fitted with even more advanced weaponry. This summer, the US Navy plans to test the viability of a laser weapon device in the Persian Gulf. It will be used to shoot down aerial drones at ultra-low cost – it is thought one shot of laser will cost about $1.

It is also hoped the Zumwalt will, like its reformer namesake who spearheaded changes that helped shape the Navy by offering new opportunities to women and minorities, shepherd the fleet into a new era, officials said.

“This ship is a modern marvel, and it's going to take smart and creative and hardworking sailors like Bud Zumwalt to operate it,” Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus told the crowd of thousands at Bath Iron Works, where the ship has been under construction since 2009.

Mouzetta Zumwalt-Weathers and Ann Zumwalt, the former admiral's daughters, each christened the ship by smashing a bottle of champagne near its bow, followed by cheers and bursts of red, white and blue streamers. They were joined at the ceremony by Zumwalt's son, retired Marine Lt. Col. Jim Zumwalt, who recalled 55 years ago, as a young boy, attending the christening of the USS Dewey, which his father commanded.The Zumwalt-class guided-missile destroyer DDG 1000 is floated out of dry dock at the General Dynamics Bath Iron Works shipyard Bud Zumwalt, who became the youngest chief of naval operations in 1970, promoted the first female and African-American officers to admirals and opened the door for women to become naval aviators and serve on warships.

“He strove for a Navy that was supportive, encouraging and compassionate toward all sailors, especially minorities and women,” his daughter Ann said.

“A Navy that not only fought wars but also fought discrimination in its ranks. He dreamt of a Navy that allowed its sailors a better quality of life.”

Inside, sailors will have more space to work and live because the Zumwalt will only require about half the crew of the current generation of destroyers. Meanwhile, fewer sailors will need to stand watch because of cameras and video monitors that show what's going on outside.

That will allow the Navy to “carry out its crucial mission at a time of budget constraints,” said US Senator Susan Collins of Maine.

The Zumwalt was originally supposed to be christened in October, but the ceremony was rescheduled because of the federal government shutdown. The ship is expected to be delivered to the Navy late this year and to enter service in 2016. It will be joined by two other destroyers in its class, which are also being built in Bath.

Additional reporting by Associated Press
Read more: US Navy on course to arm ship with laser
Just how big is Japan's super-destroyer?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Philip wrote:Perhaps there was some experience to be gained from Trishul,but not the main priority,to field a tri-service missile,which as of now has still not materialised either desi or firang. B-8 is according to our very own MOD,4.5 yrs. late!

Did we ever ask for either Aster or SMs? MDA did offer/showcase Aster-30 to us.The US has been pro-active in selling us their wares,esp. naval items.Aegis was touted at one time if I recall ,here is the report,from DefenseWorld.net:
Aster 30 has not been cleared for export outside of EU block, Saudis/RSN who have spent billions on LaFayette based FFGs do not currently operate Aster 30. Currently P-15 class DDG are simply not large enough to carry Aegis SPY-1D and large number of Mk41 perhaps the scaled down 1F with 16 Mk 41 (64 ESSM) which is simply not worth it. All we have to do is develop AAD for naval purpose or perhaps a modified S-300 and stick into the Brahmos universal cells in twin packs for fall back plan for Barak-8 and also give us limited ABM capability.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Philip ^^^ re Elmo the Destroyer. The commanding officer is named James A. Kirk (descendant of 'Tiberius'?). There is no info on the first officer, the 'helmsman', the communications officer, the navigator or Khan Noonien Singh :)

Phasers on stun, warp speed ahead.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

John,when Akash was cleared fro the IAF,a couple of years ago,I mooted the idea that a naval variant be immediately developed.It is strange that there has been little thought on the subject. The Chinese quickly acquired the Russian SA-N-6 naval SAMs for their DDGs,which are the naval variant of the S-300s.The Chinese made licensed copies as well.

FAS:
India
Since 1995 India has been negotiating with Russia regarding purchase of the S-300, in response to Pakistan's deployment of M-11 missiles from China. In 1995 Russian Defense Deputy Minister Kokoshin offered to sell S-300 missiles during his trip to India. Following this offer Indian officials started negotiations with the Russian manufacturers, and in August 1995 the Indian Defense Secretary Nambiar went to Russia to observe tests of the missiles near Moscow. The $1 billion purchase is said to include six S-300 systems, with each combat system consisting of 48 missiles. Reportedly in June 1996 27 S-300 missiles were delivered to India.
China
In the early 1990s China imported 100-120 S-300 missile systems which are deployed aroung Bejing, and it has been suggested that China intends to obtain a license to produce them, with a designation variously reported as either HQ-10 or HQ-15. The first Chinese copy have been tested, but all the components of the first copy version were imported from Russia. The October 1999 parade celebrating the 50th anniversary of the People's Republic of China in Beijing featured a large number of truck towed quad-cannister systems associated with the SA-10.
Chinese DDGs displace around 6000t,so there is ample opportunity for our DDGs and future capital ships to consider the SAN-6 apart from other equiv. SAMs. How Barak-8 will compare is eagerly awaited ,a couple of years from now.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

the 052D PLAN DDG is about the size of our P15A. they are building a lot of these new design.
7500t , 156m, 18m
http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot.in ... ssile.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Need something the size of Sejong to use Aegis effectively. As for 052D i believe P-15A will have bigger displacement than the former which can carry only a single helo if IN were to do the same double Barak-8 count, the need for it to be multi purpose does place some limitation. Also the increase weight from mast to support MF STAR which does provide better detection capability against sea skimming missile nearly double or more than 052Ds range only Type 45 does it better.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

1 helo, 1 ciws gun covering front arc only and low placement of radar are indeed shortcomings of the 051D template.
the new UVLS probably not deep enough for the biggest ASMs of brahmos category, which is why we raise the brahmos launchers one deck up.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Ajit.C »

Robin Dhowan takes over as Navy chief-Times of India
NEW DELHI: India finally has a new Navy chief. Admiral Rabinder Kumar Dhowan, the vice-chief till Wednesday, took over the reins of the maritime force on Thursday.

After dithering for over 50 days following Admiral DK Joshi's sudden resignation on February 26, owning "moral responsibility" for a string of warship mishaps, the government finally moved swiftly on Thursday to appoint Admiral Robin Dhowan as the new chief.

Admiral Dhowan, who will have a 25-month tenure, has superseded Vice-Admiral Shekhar Kumar Sinha, the current Western Naval Command chief, to become India's 22nd Navy chief.

Of the three vice-admirals who were in the fray, Sinha was commissioned in June 1974, Dhowan in January 1975 and Eastern Naval Command chief Anil Chopra in July 1975.

In the normal course of events, Southern Naval Command chief Vice-Admiral Satish Soni, commissioned in July 1976, was slated to replace Admiral Joshi as the Navy chief in August 2015. By then, the three officers senior to him would have retired. But the line of succession has gone for a toss, with present National Defence College commandant Vice-Admiral Sunil Lamba now slated to succeed Admiral Dhowan in May 2016.

The long delay in appointing a new chief, which was adversely impacting the day-to-day running of the force, was primarily because of the defence ministry's inability to take a decision after first accepting Admiral Joshi's resignation with unseemly haste on February 26, which it later realized had landed it in a "deep fix".

The delay also led to active lobbying, with vested interests at work to scuttle the chances of one or the other contender. Vice-Admiral Sinha was targeted on the ground that most of the accidents that led to Admiral Joshi's resignation had taken place under his watch in the WNC.

Admiral Dhowan will now have to effectively steer the Navy, which currently operates 145 warships, which includes 50 "major combatants'' and 14 submarines, apart from aircraft, helicopters and spy drones.

With the long-term aim to build a powerful three-dimensional maritime force capable of protecting India's strategic interests from the Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait and beyond, India has many as 44 warships on order in domestic shipyards at a cost of over 2 lakh crore.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maitya »

X-posting from the Su-30 thread ... this needs discussing (John, Philip et all pls comment):
maitya wrote:
Austin wrote:FGFA will carry 2 x Brahmos-M missiles
MiG-29K will carry 2 x Brahmos-M missiles
Su-30MKI will carry 3 x Brahmos-M missiles

Brahmos-M
- 6m long
- 0.5m diameter
- Mach 3.5
- 290km range

India’s Air Force to get 40 strike fighters with BrahMos missiles
KUALA LUMPUR, April 16, /ITAR-TASS/. India’s Air Force will get 40 SU-30MKI strike fighters armed with a smaller version of BrahMos missiles, Russian-Indian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace President Sivathanu Pillai told ARMS-TASS at the international arms exhibition DSA-2014 in Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday, April 16.
<<snip>>
The missile will be 6 metres long and have a diameter of 0.5 metres. It will be able to travel at a speed 3.5 times the sound velocity and carry a charge of 200 to 300 kg over a maximum distance of up to 290 km. The BrahMos missiles that have been tested up to date are two-stage cruise missiles 10 meters long and 0.7 metres in diameter.
<<snip>>
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/728303
Hmmmmm ... :twisted: The Kilo torpedo tubes are of 533 mm dia and are around 8 meters in length :twisted: ... Hmmmmm.

Maybe the booster was/is the constraint ... who knows!! Interesting times ...
Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Its mentioned in the story that Brahmos-M would be fired from Scorpene sub , so it should be capable to fire from all 533 mm standard TT ...that also includes Kilo and Type-209 post modernisation.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28526 »

New warships with no AD. figures. More jugaad I guess.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

More politics on new CNS also?
Image
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

Ajit.C wrote:Robin Dhowan takes over as Navy chief-Times of India
NEW DELHI: India finally has a new Navy chief. Admiral Rabinder Kumar Dhowan, the vice-chief till Wednesday, took over the reins of the maritime force on Thursday.

After dithering for over 50 days following Admiral DK Joshi's sudden resignation on February 26, owning "moral responsibility" for a string of warship mishaps, the government finally moved swiftly on Thursday to appoint Admiral Robin Dhowan as the new chief.

Admiral Dhowan, who will have a 25-month tenure, has superseded Vice-Admiral Shekhar Kumar Sinha, the current Western Naval Command chief, to become India's 22nd Navy chief.

Of the three vice-admirals who were in the fray, Sinha was commissioned in June 1974, Dhowan in January 1975 and Eastern Naval Command chief Anil Chopra in July 1975.

In the normal course of events, Southern Naval Command chief Vice-Admiral Satish Soni, commissioned in July 1976, was slated to replace Admiral Joshi as the Navy chief in August 2015. By then, the three officers senior to him would have retired. But the line of succession has gone for a toss, with present National Defence College commandant Vice-Admiral Sunil Lamba now slated to succeed Admiral Dhowan in May 2016.

The long delay in appointing a new chief, which was adversely impacting the day-to-day running of the force, was primarily because of the defence ministry's inability to take a decision after first accepting Admiral Joshi's resignation with unseemly haste on February 26, which it later realized had landed it in a "deep fix".

The delay also led to active lobbying, with vested interests at work to scuttle the chances of one or the other contender. Vice-Admiral Sinha was targeted on the ground that most of the accidents that led to Admiral Joshi's resignation had taken place under his watch in the WNC.

Admiral Dhowan will now have to effectively steer the Navy, which currently operates 145 warships, which includes 50 "major combatants'' and 14 submarines, apart from aircraft, helicopters and spy drones.

With the long-term aim to build a powerful three-dimensional maritime force capable of protecting India's strategic interests from the Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait and beyond, India has many as 44 warships on order in domestic shipyards at a cost of over 2 lakh crore.
Pity.

The IN could have really done much, much better.

Stoopide politicians. :roll:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Patni »

Breaking news the CNC Western Naval commands takes VRS after being overlooked for post of naval chief.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

Patni wrote:Breaking news the CNC Western Naval commands takes VRS after being overlooked for post of naval chief.
No other option left after being superseded.

It is the honorable thing to do.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Too many resignatios this year already after accidents on the high seas, hopefully no more. Some CNC has to be around too for guidance.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

maitya wrote:X-posting from the Su-30 thread ... this needs discussing (John, Philip et all pls comment):
IMO it looks given up the idea of fitting Brahmos in vls config on SSK which was quite absurd. The newer variant should have better export possibility and should be able to fend off tough competition from Klub and Yakhont missile system.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

The BMos VLS option is already available,the ship launched version aboard a sub.The BMos-M (mini) will have a smaller warhead ,etc. Its capabilities may be a bit different from the std. version.

The decision taken finally reg. the CNS is welcome,in that a decision was made.In fact ,no disrespect to him,VAdm. Sinha should've resigned on moral grounds after the second sub disaster (SRatna) as he was in command of WC. He should've fallen on his sword instead of Adm.Joshi. I suppose he stayed put taking his cue from Adm.Ramdas who stayed on after INS Andamans sank during an exercise when he was in command of EC.Ramdas went on to become the chief,infamous for his making do with less statement during the "lost decade" when not a single warship or sub was inducted. Now poor VAdm.Sinha has been overlooked-obviously for his performance,and has had to take retirement.

Unfortunate for the other chiefs of SC and EC who have now lost their seniority,but when (was it ACM Katre?) the air chief died in harness decades ago,his deputy,AM La Fontaine succeeded him.So the DCNS stepping into the chief's shoes has a precedent in the Indian armed forces. If an officer can rise to the rank of Deputy in any of the branches of the services,and he has been CO of the fleet of a command,the one who will actually have to take the fleet pout to fight,one cannot discount him from succeeding whatever his lack of heading a Command .It may be unusual,but remember the controversy about a helo/transport pilot being chosen above a fighter pilot for the post of chief,ACM Fali Major?

One must also remember how Adm.Bhagwat was shafted for not promoting an officer whom he felt did not deserve to,and his successor,Adm,Sushil Kumar.Just for the record,the history behind his sacking in this old Frontline cover special.It is a very lengthy article,and has much historical content,background of the personalities involved and other senior officers of the IN,a must read .It lays bare some of the politicking that has afflicted the IN in recent years.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1602/16020040.htm
Vol. 16 :: No. 02 :: Jan. 16 - 29, 1999

COVER STORY
AN UNJUST DISMISSAL

A communal and unsavoury combine has forced out of its way a Service Chief of uncompromisable integrity, independence and professionalism.
Xcpts:
The proximate cause of Bhagwat's removal was his lawful and professionally uncompromising defiance of the Government's yet-to-be-explained decision to foist Vice-Admiral Harinder Singh, Fortress Commander in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, as DCNS. The Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC) made this choice on December 9, 1998. On the following day, the CNS addressed a note to Union Home Minister L.K. Advani, appending transcripts of telephone conversations that Harinder Singh had conducted with officers at the second tier in the naval hierarchy - Vice-Admirals V. Pasricha, P.J. Jacob and Madanjit Singh - respectively Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command, Vice-Chief of the Naval Staff, and officiating DCNS. These recordings had been made by Harinder Singh between March 17 and April 2, 1998, and their transcripts sent to Ashwini Minna, editor of Punjab Kesri, a widely-circulated newspaper published from Jalandhar. Behind the veneer of banter and irreverent chatter between uniformed peers, the intent of the conversations was very clear - to draw out statements to the effect that the CNS was unwilling to entertain Harinder Singh's claims to a higher position in the naval hierarchy, purely on account of personal animus.

Admiral Bhagwat made a formal request that the Home Minister utilise his inherent powers of enforcement to prosecute Harinder Singh for the unauthorised recording of personal conversations. He also told Advani, informally, that he would not respond to provocation by resigning the office he held. The Government, he said, could sack him if it thought fit. Rather than accept a known recalcitrant as his deputy, said Bhagwat, he would consider dismissal a well-merited honour and a challenge.
Entries made in his C.R. for the period ending February 28 had come to his notice, and the Vice-Admiral was at pains to rebut them. There was, for instance, a reference to his very "average" military command capabilities, and his failure to provide NHQ with a "strategic appreciation" of the Andaman Islands littoral region for all of eight months. One specific omission was identified to question Harinder Singh's military leadership skills. While he was on leave from his post in February 1998, a major inter-services operation was launched in the Andamans Sea to interdict a narcotics and arms smuggling operation. The operation yielded a massive haul but the CNS noted that Harinder Singh gave no indication that he would "leave aside his personal concerns and rejoin duty to take charge" of it. There were also adverse notings on Harinder Singh's visit to Russia in May 1997, when he enjoyed the hospitality of two known arms dealers, one of whom had been placed on the MoD blacklist.
The adverse remarks that had been entered into his Confidential Report (C.R.) were entirely motived by this bias, charged Harinder Singh, and solely intended to deny him a higher position in the naval command hierarchy, which would otherwise be his due on purely professional criteria.

Harinder Singh's ROG petition was forwarded to NHQ on April 6. The response was sent within three weeks, signed by the Vice-Chief of the Naval Staff (VCNS), Jacob. The various issues raised by the officer had no bearing on his specific grievance and went far beyond his "competence and locus standi", said the VCNS. The language used and the imputations made were in violation of various statutory regulations of the armed forces. Harinder Singh, said Jacob, should explain within ten days why disciplinary action should not be taken against him for these multiple transgressions of naval discipline.
THE unseemly tale really begins on March 22, 1998, when Harinder Singh despatched a pastiche of wild suspicions, rumours and imagined grievances about the Navy Chief to his immediate superior, the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (Eastern Naval Command). This was supposedly in exercise of the "redress of grievance" (ROG) option available to all officers, and began with the bald assertion that the CNS was "distorting" personnel policies in order to bring up officers belonging to his "constituency". There also seemed a "hidden denominational agenda" in his actions, alleged Harinder Singh, since his actions often suggested an overt hostility towards adherents of the Sikh faith. This, in turn, was perhaps a consequence of the CNS' wife Niloufer Bhagwat being a "half-Muslim" and a "'card carrying member of the Communist Party and their lawyer" (before the Srikrishna Commission of Inquiry). As though this was not enough, Harinder singh flung a wild and incendiary charge against a Muslim officer, Lt. Cdr. A.A. Lone, questioning his patriotism and falsely alleging links with a person involved in hawala transactions for arms for Kashmir terrorists. About Niloufer Bhagwat, he alleged that her "half-Muslmi" origins and CPI links "could possibly explain why so many officers from this denomination remain close to them" and raised the question: "Could this case be a case of 'affirmative action'?"
A NOTABLE effort to mediate a constructive outcome was made by Sharad Pawar, Leader of the Opposition in the Lok Sabha and former Defence Minister. In a letter of remarkable clarity and firmness despatched to the Prime Minister and Defence Minister on September 9, Pawar drew their attention to the multiplicity of petitions pending in court on account of Harinder Singh and counselled them to exert their authority in the cause of sanity: "Had this been a petition by an officer in the civilian services, I would not have felt the need to write to you. However one of my observations as the Raksha Mantri was that, the Armed Forces were not tainted by the divisive forces which are currently at work in our country. My experience was that the Armed Forces were 'Indian' and were not concerned with religious, political or communal ideology except at a very peripheral level. I believe that this is one of the greatest strengths of the country. It would be disastrous to allow anybody or anything to shake this."

George Fernandes felt obliged, as a matter of courtesy, to send a laconic one-line reply to Pawar. But his attention was clearly elsewhere. Relations between the military hierarchy and the MoD bureaucracy were plunging rapidly and Fernandes seemed disinclined to check the precipitate descent. On September 8, he received a letter signed by all three Service Chiefs complaining of the "negative and unsupportive attitude" of Defence Secretary Ajit Kumar. His "brusque and insensitive" manner with even senior military officers did not make for a conducive atmosphere, complained the Service Chiefs.
Former Navy Chief J.G. Nadkarni, who had in 1990 recommended the dismissal of then Rear Admiral Bhagwat for alleged indiscipline.

Subsequent events have been recorded by R. Venkataraman, who, as head of state, had a unique vantage point from which to view them. Shortly after assuming office, Prime Minister Chandra Shekhar made overtures to the President through the Defence Secretary, to ask whether Ramdas' appointment could be rescinded. The President demurred. Orders on the succession had already been issued and their withdrawal would create avoidable confusion and heartburn, he argued. Chandra Shekhar was insistent: could not Nadkarni then be given an extension, he asked. Venkataraman was again lukewarm. There was no obvious rationale for what was clearly an extraordinary step, he responded, and a Service Chief on extension would fail to command the unequivocal allegiance of his men. What these presidential reminiscences point to is an officer cadre in the Navy that was riven by deep factional politics from at least 1990.
In endorsing the dismissal of Bhagwat, Nadkarni and S.M. Nanda are singular in their own ways among former Navy Chiefs. Their reasons are partly congruent. Nanda heads one of the most successful arms brokerage firms in India, with operations in Moscow and London. His son took early retirement from the Indian Navy to join the family business, and is reported to have provided hospitality in London to the wife of Harinder Singh during his overseas visit in May 1997. Nadkarni was investigated by the CBI in 1990-91 for alleged "assets disproportionate to his known sources of income." The matter ended with his paying considerable income tax dues.
BHAGWAT'S personal convictions and deep sense of intellectual rigour made him a misfit in an ambience where the easy and lazy options were preferred. He was known, for instance, to question every major import deal and vigorously argue the case for indigenous production. His experience in the Service similarly taught him to study keenly every procurement deal for evidence of cost-rigging. He was wary in the extreme, even at the cost of alienating his peer group, of military officers who chose to enter the arms bazaar as contractors and middlemen after retirement. The loose and permissive attitude that Harinder Singh displayed during his visit to Russia was, in Bhagwat's code of conduct, deeply repugnant.
The year of naval disasters that we have experienced,is a direct consequence of what transpired a decade+ ago where the "where the easy and lazy options were preferred". Some months ago,one in the know told me of the acute problem the IN was facing with inexperienced officers who had little on-hands experience at command,whose ship-handling capabilities were below par,were rising to the top,avoiding responsibility with indifference.In the USN for example,officers are given command at a young age where they can hone their ship-handling and tactical skills ,equipping them with the experience required for higher command. These lapses apparently have caught up with IN,most unfortunately in a service that was once praised for its professionalism and vision making do with the smallest share of the defence budget but achieving huge successes.

*In another issue-that of the lack of an area-defence SAM for the VikA and the DDGs,and whether Kashtan had been rejected orr not considered for the carrier,an MOD spokesman in a recent report media said that the IN had 10 years to decide upon what SAM it needed,and that Kashtan had not yet been rejected officially.There was only now an IN RFP for a SAM after the carrier was delivered,that too a few years late! In a note to some posters who thought that Aster was not on offer outside NATO nations,the official also said that France was very keen to get into contention.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Philip wrote:The BMos VLS option is already available,the ship launched version aboard a sub.The BMos-M (mini) will have a smaller warhead ,etc. Its capabilities may be a bit different from the std. version.
While systems are in place VLS launch from submarine still needs $$ to be tested and a platform for testing. Based on info so far warhead will be the same as Brahmos, perhaps the improvements are due to shorter a terminal phase, composites or newer fuel we don't know.
Singha wrote:1 helo, 1 ciws gun covering front arc only and low placement of radar are indeed shortcomings of the 051D template.
the new UVLS probably not deep enough for the biggest ASMs of brahmos category, which is why we raise the brahmos launchers one deck up.
I do like RAMesque CIWS but lack of gun placement in aft will expose it to any possible Cole type attacks. As for P-15A, Singha what do you mean by UVLS not being deep enough for Brahmos? i believe it is 10 meters long, long enough to house Brahmos canisters. Also do we have any idea it is UVLS or Larsen & Turbo Brahmos Vertical launchers.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by krishnan »

20:15 Superseded navy commander seeks justice or retirement: Upset over being superseded for the post of Navy Chief, Western Naval Commander Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha has filed a complaint with the defence ministry and said that if "justice" is not done to him, he would take voluntary retirement.

In his letter to the Ministry, he has complained against being overlooked for the appointment to the top post, sources said.

Sinha has also told the government that if "justice"cannot be done to him, he should be given voluntary retirement, sources said here.

Admiral Robin Dhowan, vice chief of naval staff, was appointed as the navy chief yesterday superseding Sinha, who was the senior-most vice admiral.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by ramana »

X-post...

Indian Defence: Sleaze, Subversion, Sabotage, Supersession and Succession.

It seems that the Defence Minister of India Mr Arackaparambil Kurien Antony was waiting for the din of the fifth and the biggest phase of elections to arrive so that the government could push its agenda of appointing a Naval Chief for which the powers that be had schemed for many months.

The appointment of Admiral RK Dhowan comes after 50 days of the resignation of Admiral DK Joshi. In any decent country the appointment of the next Naval Chief should have been immediate.

Admiral DK Joshi resigned on moral grounds, taking responsibility for series of accidents and mishaps, involving dozen vessels including two submarines. The government and most quarters in the Navy attributed these incidents to logistics, shipbuilding or age related problems. Even though, the indications of sabotage deserved serious consideration, it was disdainfully ruled out. It may be reiterated that all the accidents and mishaps had taken place on the shore. Only in February this year, the Navy conducted a massive Exercise TROPEX in which more than 70 vessels had participated, and there was not one accident / mishap in the mid-seas.

Many senior Indian Naval Officers that this author has interacted with are strong on the judgement that the accidents / mishaps are nothing unusual and are now coming to notice because of increasingly intrusive media.

If the accidents were ‘usual’, due to logistics problems or age related mishaps, then why did the Defence Minister accept the resignation of Admiral Joshi with amazing alacrity? When General VK Singh’s age issue was still with the MoD, there were babus who superciliously bandied that the General would not be allowed to resign and alter, the ‘succession plan’, as he served under the pleasure of the President. Why was Admiral Joshi’s resignation therefore not withheld by Mr Antony till his successor was found?

The resignation of a service chief by taking moral position or responsibility on any issue is huge symbolism. It is these gestures that provide impetus to integrity and moral muscle in the evolution of the organization. It does not in any way reflect any kind of guilt. The quality of inventory of the three services is more the responsibility of the government. To that extent, it was Mr AK Antony who should have resigned.

There are many stories in the air about the resignation of Admiral Joshi. Most of them portray the Defence Minister and his babus in conspiratorial roles. Admiral Joshi’s silence further deepens and fans the conspiracy theories.

The most robust theory was that the accidents and mishaps were used as a tool to compel Admiral to resign and to supersede the next claimant by Admiral RK Dhowan. This theory has now been vindicated. No upright officer would accept the position after so much of sleaze, manipulations and machinations. His appointment alters the entire ‘line of succession’, which vested interests, most significantly the ‘army lobby’ is now investing in a brazen manner.

Vice-Admiral Shekhar Sinha has been superseded. But for the fifth phase of the ongoing elections, this supersession story would have dominated the front page of newspapers and prime time television. The manipulators in government are advancing preposterous and bizarre logic for his supersession. They maintain that since most accidents took place in the Navy’s Western Command, Admiral Sinha as Flag Officer Commanding of that Command is also responsible. This argument nails the lie of Mr AK Antony that he did his level best to persuade Admiral DK Joshi against resigning. If Mr Antony did not find him guilty, how can he inflict that guilt on Admiral Sinha and supersede him. Moreover, why should this chain stop only at Admiral Sinha?

The moot question is: Will the new Chief Admiral RK Dhowan resign as and when the next accident takes place, or all logistics and age related problems of the naval inventory has been fixed forever?

From the sequence of events and the behaviour of principal protagonists the suspicion of subversion and sabotage becomes overwhelmingly strong. To people with Intelligence backgrounds, conversant with the machinations of ‘western arms lobby’ the sabotage angle behind the accidents was most plausible. If the accidents were not sabotage, the Ministry of Defence (MoD), the Indian Navy and other related organizations would have been impelled to meet the crisis on a war footing. Instead in the aftermath of these accidents increasing adversarial relationship was witnessed between the MoD and the Indian Navy. Some people in the MoD looked clearly happy, since the situation was now amenable for pursuance of their agenda.

I had followed General VK Singh’s age row case very intimately, and distinctly remember the vicissitudes. I was particularly intrigued by the machinery the ‘army lobby’ had assembled to ensure the exit of the General. This lobby included journalists, owners of television channels, some retired army officers, strangely one very senior Air Force Officer and even a former diplomat who had no locus standi on the issue. During that period, I was invited to many television channels.

To begin with, one prominent TV channel asked me whether I was ready to say on air that the General should resign. It also assured me that while taking this stand, the channel would vouch for the integrity of the General. I clearly understood the game-plan, being scripted by the government and carried forward by this particular news channel. Nevertheless, I did make myself available, but on the penultimate question on whether the General should resign or not, I said: “it is for the General to decide”. The anchor was aghast!

There were many occasions that a particular anchor of one channel while taking anti-General stand during debates, would prod me underneath the table to take on some of the worst detractors of the General. The anti-VK Singh industry also included a former national security advisor, who got himself invited to an interview by a TV channel, and during the course of which, and in an inebriated state, he led the journalist to the question: “Who has been India’s worst Army Chief?” Actually, given his own background, the answer was very simple for the anchor.

Even at that time Mr Antony could have resolved the age issue in respect of the General within hours. It may be mentioned here that the General while filing his nomination for Lok Sabha has mentioned his date of birth as maintained by him. Doesn’t it smite your conscience Mr Antony? Why is it that the names of recipients of kickbacks on AgustaWestland deal stop at the former Air Chief? Are you not interested in other names Mr Antony? How is it that most of the revelations regarding kickbacks on arms deals when they are at the verge of fruition are sabotage by some of the sleaziest countries in the world who dabble in arms business?

In reality, it did surprise everyone that why did the power behind your elevation as Defence Minister repose so much of faith in you? Going by precedence and proclivities of that power the reasons can be anything but ‘honesty and integrity’.

The extent of reach and influence that the ‘arms lobby’ has carved for itself under the present dispensation, can be gauzed by its ability to alter the ‘line of succession’ in the armed forces. Under you Mr Antony, the ‘succession plan’ has subverted the three services for posterity. This is your greatest gift to the Indian Armed Forces!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Is it true that the new Navy Chief is third in seniority after the Western and Eastern Naval Commanders, respectively? If yes, then on what basis was the seniority principle subverted? While I can understand the logic behind over-looking WNC Chief, why was the Eastern Naval Command CnC overlooked?

The above article would make sense if the MOD went all the way to accommodate the present CNS.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Ajit.C »

He was No.2 in seniority after WNC.ENC was no.3 and SNC no.4. Cannot understand what the fuss is about.
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