Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 24 Nov 2005 06:07

Harry wrote:There is no rule that says you can be banned for stupidity and/or ignorance.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 24 Nov 2005 06:07

George J wrote:JEM:
Its the truth....we are not making this up...it (Oracle) really says all this and still gets away with it. Peking/Pyongyang/Peshawar - Psychology does not rhyme, you need a city with S sound. Might I suggest Sarghoda Sychology. I think its a core course for all Pakis thats why they are so hung up on H&D.

Peshawar Piskology might be more apt.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 24 Nov 2005 13:27

Shiv-ji/Jagan, This one needs to go to the Bison Image Page ...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/cope/Picture_015.jpg

Of course with Vishnu's consent ...

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 24 Nov 2005 21:33

Hi there ... I think any of the less intrusive watermarks are fine. PS ... I don't really need any credit for these pics. Its for BR.
Thanks
Vishnu

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 24 Nov 2005 23:49

Check out the Oracle's latest post on AFM

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... post787248

In 1989, the PAF had purchased the F-7, a modified Chinese version of the venerable MiG-21, on the condition that it should be made lighter and its avionics improved. The result was the F-7MP. China later based its export variant, the F-7M on the PAF criteria. Pakistan bought a total of 20 F-7Ps (basic F-7s), 125 F-7MPs and 15 FT-7Ps in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The F-7MG was made possible by this sale to Pakistan which added an additional 10 year life to the Chinese F-7 programme which was meant to cease production of the F-7 by 2000. Now it is expected that the Chinese F-7 programme will continue up to 2010 due to the PAF purchases. The PAF is the largest user of the F-7 after the PLAAF itself.

The PAF is also looking for a BVR capability on the F-7MG as well as to upgrade its current F-7MP fleet to BVR capability. This would enable the PAF's 160 F-7MPs to launch medium-range air-to-air missiles. The PAF is looking closely at South African, French and Chinese BVR missiles. South Africa has already offered its DARTER missile as the primary BVR weapon of the Super-7 fighter.

The PAF will make the decision whether or not to purchase the F-7MG once the Air Chief returns from China. If the decision to purchase the F-7MG is made, the order will be placed before the end of the year and delivery will commence in late 1999 or early 2000. The purchase price has already been agreed upon between Pakistan and China and the Ministry of Finance, Government of Pakistan has already sanctioned the amount for the purchase.

The Super-7 programme has recently been given greater impetus after France blocked the delivery of 8 Mirage Vs as part of a total order of 40 Mirage Vs/IIIs from Sagem SA of France. This has resulted in the PAF almost ruling out future aircraft purchases from France, including that of the Mirage 2000-5, which has been twice rejected by the PAF for being overpriced and incapable of effective air-to-air combat against fighters such as the F-16. In simulated air combat between the F-16 and the Mirage 2000-5 conducted by the PAF on numerous occasions, the technologically inferior F-16A defeated the Mirage 2000-5 on every occasion. In close-in air combat, F-7MP also outmanoeuvred the Mirage 2000-5 due to its lighter weight and smaller wings. This has resulted in the PAF concluding that the Mirage 2000-5 in the PAF would only be effective in the ground-attack and strike roles and cannot be employed as a multi-role fighter. According to the PAF criteria for future fighter purchases, the aircraft must be multi-role in the complete sense of the word and capable of carrying out ground-attack/strike as well as air defence/interception missions with equal ease and effectiveness. The Super-7 would be able to effectively satisfy both these requirements.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Nov 2005 00:14

the simple fact is that they could'nt afford the Mirage-2k-5 ..so, now like jilted lovers, they have taken to maligning it..

what else can we expect from the Pukes ?

daulat · Post by **daulat** » 25 Nov 2005 00:16

Harry are you sure that shouldn't go in the Humour thread?

I can just wonder at the tests where an M2K-5 gets its butt whipped by an F-16A and F7

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Nov 2005 00:37

I call that madrasa mental mastur******
F-7MP powered by musharraf-hawaadar and fuelled by jinn power can beat any supersonic fighter. Alas it does not work in subsonic speed regiem where ordinary mortel fight

daulat · Post by **daulat** » 25 Nov 2005 01:27

Arun_S wrote:I call that madrasa mental mastur******
F-7MP powered by musharraf-hawaadar and fuelled by jinn power can beat any supersonic fighter. Alas it does not work in subsonic speed regiem where ordinary mortel fight

sorry, i forgot, its the H&D way of saying "Frenchies wouldn't sell us any good maal"

Rich · Post by **Rich** » 25 Nov 2005 02:57

Harry wrote:Check out the Oracle's latest post on AFM

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... post787248

In simulated air combat between the F-16 and the Mirage 2000-5 conducted by the PAF on numerous occasions, the technologically inferior F-16A defeated the Mirage 2000-5 on every occasion. In close-in air combat, F-7MP also outmanoeuvred the Mirage 2000-5 due to its lighter weight and smaller wings.

The highlighted part (much to George's chagrin

) should explain everything. Perhaps this tidbit should be forwarded to Dassault, I'm sure they would appreciate a good laugh.

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 25 Nov 2005 03:24

if there is an archive of all the posts from oracle that would be great to amuse ourselves even though it may sound little twisted..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2005 06:49

vishnua wrote:if there is an archive of all the posts from oracle that would be great to amuse ourselves even though it may sound little twisted..

vishnua this post is not directed at you personally but on the general subject of this person "Oracle" whose posts I do not read on any other fora and whose posts I do not really want to read on here.

Despite the fun and laughter, this Oracle chap is playing with many of you (IMHO). He takes the initiative - and posts some information, and many of us pick up that infomation ostensibly to "laugh at it"

But there are always people who take it seriously, and discussing it widely makes it more widely seen and more credible. This is not just about BRF people "worrying" on here - but it is about half assed people like Prasun sengupta and others who ultimately get quoted in "serious references". I have a living example of that right now in a book I am reviewing for SRR. It is a serious US policymaking/policy-shaping type work that actually quotes all our usual friends - Prasun Sengupta, Brian Clueless and the lot.

Assholes do get heard. Assholes do become credible. We add to that inadvertantly by making them famous. We guys are big talkers and like to gossip and laugh - but we are short on the type of work that Oracle and Clueless do. Those guys are actually more effective than all us jokers.

Can we stop please?

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 25 Nov 2005 07:21

shiv wrote:Assholes do get heard. Assholes do become credible.

Yes, the think tanks in DC are full of them.

abhisheks · Post by **abhisheks** » 25 Nov 2005 10:51

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html

A post from USAF pilot returning from COPE 05 regarding his experiences and some pictures. The user name is "Ragin". Scroll down to see the post.

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 25 Nov 2005 11:19

A post from USAF pilot returning from COPE 05 regarding his experiences and some pictures. The user name is "Ragin". Scroll down to see the post.

Nice...pithy, to-the-point and puts armchair wannabees all over (including us) in our places

bagha · Post by **bagha** » 25 Nov 2005 11:59

I was going through that site f16 dot net yesterday. There was another post that repeated what several of us have said time and again, that in a war it wont be a F-XX versus a Su-XX, it will be war machine against war machine. By the time the cruise missiles and SEAD/DEAD have drilled holes into the ground based air defence, and the first strike packages have put your airfields out of action, with your aircraft flying blind because of overwhelming jamming and lack of ground control... it soon wont matter if my fighter jocks are better than your fighter jocks.
And this is something that im sure the IAF is totally aware of and thus wont be treating the exercises as some sort of proof of manhood and H&D.
However these exercises and their results are of great interest to us jingoes because they tell us that our airforce is indeed pushing the pilots to train hard, to learn and evolve and in several cases to innovate and push the limits. I mean how many times have we heard anyone talk of the MiG 21 with respect??
Im all for the exercises, great training in preparing to fight alongwith another force and great training in preparing to fight against another force. Great for us jingos because its always fun to know how our equipment and pilots stack up against others. But proxy air war this is not and this really isnt the test where we can conclude by saying IAF rules USAF sucks or vice-versa.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 Nov 2005 12:02

abhisheks wrote:http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html

A post from USAF pilot returning from COPE 05 regarding his experiences and some pictures. The user name is "Ragin". Scroll down to see the post.

Fair enough.. A sensible post about what happened.
IAF pilots sure would have learnt a lot & benefited from the exercise.. Good.

RajGuru · Post by **RajGuru** » 25 Nov 2005 14:44

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html

A post from USAF pilot returning from COPE 05 regarding his experiences and some pictures. The user name is "Ragin". Scroll down to see the post
Fair enough.. A sensible post about what happened.
IAF pilots sure would have learnt a lot & benefited from the exercise.. Good.

The USAF lost no fighter sorties due to maintenance the entire two weeks and the IAF only lost one.
can anyone throw some light on this please!!
Thanks

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 26 Nov 2005 04:08

abhisheks wrote:http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-105.html

A post from USAF pilot returning from COPE 05 regarding his experiences and some pictures. The user name is "Ragin". Scroll down to see the post.

Here is what I gather on going through the posts on that thread in the F-16 forum:

The US veterans of the cold war era show an intrinsic hatred towards India and love for Pak. During their time, India was considered by them to be a Soviet stooge, and the memory has stayed with them. That is why I think the political/ strategic/ military brass in the U.S. will continue to be anti-India and pro-Pak in strategic/ defense matters for at least another 10-20 years.

The young USAF pilot who participated in the CI-05 exercise came back with a very positive impression of IAF and India. He felt honored to have exercised with the IAF in India, and has made friendships there with his IAF counterparts. In another 20 years, when his generation reaches the top positions, the US military/ strategic establishment will become a lot friendlier towards India.

In this respect, the CI series exercises are filling a vital gap in perception.

JM2C.

Vijay Hirani · Post by **Vijay Hirani** » 26 Nov 2005 05:10

Rajeev wrote

In another 20 years, when his generation reaches the top positions, the US military/ strategic establishment will become a lot friendlier towards India.

You are very correct.

I think Manmohan Singh can see that far, which our communist friends can't see.

The PM said sometime back that it is in our strategic interest to interact with great powers now and to be.

There is a lot of talk that US and India are natural allies, democracies etc.
However the most important issue is national interest. and working together with India's largest trading partner is in India interest.

I can many situations in Africa where lot of expatriates of Indian and US origin work, and you never know when we may have towork together
to rescue our nationals, We need to get this through the thick heads in West Bengal who spent too much time mortgaging India's future for the US interest on Iraq. Besides India badly need strong democracies in the neighbourhood, so I see a democratic Iraq as to India's benefit.

Lets have more interaction between our armed forces

Vijay

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Nov 2005 05:25

That is why I think the political/ strategic/ military brass in the U.S. will continue to be anti-India and pro-Pak in strategic/ defense matters for at least another 10-20 years.

The young officers in Afghanistan facing TSP "plausible deniability" and cross border terrorism will have quite another view of Pakistan when they ascend the ranks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2005 06:10

Folks give me a few days and I willput up COPE India pics fron Vishnu with less obtrusive watermarks. Unless someone else does it before I do.

abhisheks · Post by **abhisheks** » 26 Nov 2005 06:42

link

More pictures from another COPE returnee...(username: moose69)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2005 07:03

abhisheks wrote:link

More pictures from another COPE returnee...(username: moose69)

There is an absolutely amazing pic theer of about 37-38 people sitting on the wing of an Su 30.

appuseth · Post by **appuseth** » 26 Nov 2005 07:09

The US veterans of the cold war era show an intrinsic hatred towards India and love for Pak. During their time, India was considered by them to be a Soviet stooge, and the memory has stayed with them. That is why I think the political/ strategic/ military brass in the U.S. will continue to be anti-India and pro-Pak in strategic/ defense matters for at least another 10-20 years.

Rajeev,

This is not necessarily the case. A lot of the people posing on that forum are TSP/Chinese posters pretending to be American. Trust me, I have encountered this kind of thing a lot on the internet; even on BR forum itself. Most of the top military brass in the US currently see India as a necessary ally of the future that they will need in the upcoming cold war against China. What the Americans really want is to get both TSP and India on their side, and for an end to TSP-India hostilities; so that then an India-US alliance will be more effective (when India is not occupied with TSP).

karan · Post by **karan** » 26 Nov 2005 07:38

It is amazing how some people on different forums including f16.net and BRF who don't even work in defense industry forget about working at any of the HQ(India or US) with real access to real data, real analysis are acting like children. Real Professionals don't ever put down their counterparts (like shiv will say, "Pakis, Bang Bandhus, are not considered professional"). Remember it was an excercise to familiarize two teams to work together. Its like a Cricket game where World XI is playing against Aussies. Players from each country are trained to work as a cohesive unit to win a game.
One thing that I can tell you, USAF realizes that world is full of surprises, IAF realizes how far do we have to go before striking the fear in the heart of enemies.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 26 Nov 2005 07:48

shiv wrote:
abhisheks wrote:link

More pictures from another COPE returnee...(username: moose69)
There is an absolutely amazing pic theer of about 37-38 people sitting on the wing of an Su 30.

I wonder if the pilot of that particular plane insisted on a stress test for that wing before he flew that plane again

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2005 08:32

ldev wrote: I wonder if the pilot of that particular plane insisted on a stress test for that wing before he flew that plane again

Well what surprised me was not the ability of the wing to support the weight of 40 people - but the area of wing skin that appears to be safe to have people walking/standing on it. That is a revelation.

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 26 Nov 2005 08:36

One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.

from moose69-LT., USAF on F-16.net.

All jingos rejoice

member_7795 · Post by **member_7795** » 26 Nov 2005 09:15

shiv wrote:
ldev wrote: I wonder if the pilot of that particular plane insisted on a stress test for that wing before he flew that plane again
Well what surprised me was not the ability of the wing to support the weight of 40 people - but the area of wing skin that appears to be safe to have people walking/standing on it. That is a revelation.

Truly gives an indication of how big the MKI is.. as one person quoted on F-16.net.... the Su makes the F-15 look like a F-16....

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 26 Nov 2005 09:22

Definitions:

ACM Air Combat Maneuver(ing)
BFM Basic Fighter Maneuvers
LFE Live Fire Exercise
OCA Offensive Counter Air
DCA Défense Contre Avions (French: Anti Aircraft Defence)
DCA defensive counterair

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Nov 2005 09:26

One http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/cope/Picture_027.jpg you see Bison pilot Sqn Ldr Agarwal

On this

one can see on the left the first IAF pilot of Flight Lt Patel, followed by Sqn Ldr (I can't read his name) and in the middle Sqn Ldr Pandey.

Edited later: I removed reference to what other web forum discuss, it is no use giving them any credibility, publicity or importance.

abhisheks · Post by **abhisheks** » 26 Nov 2005 09:38

Arun,
I noticed that....he is probably not lying. He just does not seem to know about IAF rank structures.
We should let him know about it, but I lack the energy to open an account on a forum that is filled with TSP junta.

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 26 Nov 2005 09:56

Moose is a lier and has no credibility. Look at this photo by Vishnu all IAF pilots that I see in those photos are just Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr (below Wing Commander).

Wooh! Ease up dude. Unless you meant to type Moose is a flier and made a Freudian typo

Arun,
I noticed that....he is probably not lying. He just does not seem to know about IAF rank structures.
We should let him know about it, but I lack the energy to open an account on a forum that is filled with TSP junta.

It's Done...and that forum is not all filled with TSP junta...without trying to be an apologist for other forums/posters, let's go easy on the jingo jumpiness meter...there's valuable info flowing in from all over and we have our god-given right to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Nov 2005 09:57

abhisheks wrote:Arun,
I noticed that....he is probably not lying. He just does not seem to know about IAF rank structures.
We should let him know about it, but I lack the energy to open an account on a forum that is filled with TSP junta.

Why the hesitation to call the truth to a white men? Anglo-saxon social enginerring has taken a heavy toll on Indian psyche.

You apparently do not understand defense forces. No officer that goes on foreign soil for excercise will ever forget first briefing on rank structure of visiting nation. Certainly not after 2 weeks of intense interaction.

The fellow was certainly not saluting all higher ranking IAF pilot every time seeing them (the supposed Lt Col and above). What a big joke it would be to his fellow USAF and IAF officers and men.

....self deleted..

Div · Post by **Div** » 26 Nov 2005 10:06

Just post a link to the pics

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 26 Nov 2005 10:07

I say that again with full conviction he is a lier to save his H&D. Would love to see rebuttal based on some facts and no unwanted pity due to gora skin .

Well Arun if you really feel that strongly about it, why not confront Moose on f16.net. Like BR, that is an open forum.

Edited post Shiv's post

...But cant a BR member do good if there has been an honest mistake made on another forum...especially a non-Puki one. Surely we gain more by engaging with others than being isolationist? man...this is all going off-topic

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2005 14:03

Rajit Ojha wrote:
...But cant a BR member do good if there has been an honest mistake made on another forum...especially a non-Puki one. Surely we gain more by engaging with others than being isolationist? man...this is all going off-topic

The operative word here is "good". What is good is moot.

Like you say - if there is a problem on another forum, something that you do not like, sort it out on that forum with the people in that forum. Do not bring it on here and ask people to help you sort things out on that forum and use this forum as a support mobilizing base for battles you want to fight against everyone on the net.

Use this forum if you have positive contributions to make rather than angry responses posted here against some fool on some other forum. I don't know the difference between a wing commander and a Lt colonel in the USAF. We could do with more education and less anger.

This will be my last post on the issue.

One more post and I will be deleting all references to alleged idiocy on that other forum.

Please stop.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Nov 2005 16:14

Hi all
even though i have been visiting this website often for a long time, it's only recently that i became member of this forum.
i have a question. in context of Cope'05, doesn't LFE mean "Large Force Engagement"?
Peace

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Nov 2005 19:14

the matter is settled. Moose turned out to be a ok guy and a couple of people from here gently corrected him.

Bharat Rakshak

Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part II

The Aha moment!