CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Apr 2014 18:01

sonia singh ‏@soniandtv 21h

Tragic !:-( “@ChennaiConnect: Major Mukund Varadarajan from 44 RR.Killed fighting militants in S Kashmir's Shopian. pic.twitter.com/gnMAEu9YZk”

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Apr 2014 18:09

nitin gokhale ‏@nitingokhale 22h

Sepoy Vikram Singh originally of 17 Rajput, deployed with 44 RR, died while killing 3 terrorists in Shopian. RIP pic.twitter.com/7mXa5p94EL

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 28 Apr 2014 13:37

#respect

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i-had ... eststories

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Apr 2014 15:53

I am one of those unfortunate ones who has been witness to occasion of a son's or husband's body being brought home from forward area or CI Ops. Of all things, I think there cannot be a bigger personal tragedy than for a father to carry the body of his son on the last journey. As I once saw one Colonel father in his full military uniform do (with typical Fauji fortitude) for his martyred son, a young Infantry Captain in mid-20s who lost his life fighting Pakistan Army on LOC in valley. He did not grieve openly and I still have the memory of him saluting his son for the last time before the pyre was burned etched in my mind.

Every time I hear the news of an Officer or Jawan killed in such operations, my mind immediately goes back to what I saw at various points in time when father was in Army. The initial shock in the family, mothers refusing to believe their son is no more and going into shock, somehow getting them to cry, shielding children from bad news, removing them to fellow officer's house, the wife having to deal with everything even when the world around her has literally crashed and all that.

It brings back some very painful memories. That I don't wish anyone has to relive.

In all this only, the only source of strength and support is the Army around you; your neighbors and senior officers from station, your battalion and all that.

May God bless these son's of Mother India and give them place at his feet.

muttukur · Post by **muttukur** » 28 Apr 2014 17:43

Very sad !!
But still the question remains how to make sure no such fatal errors take place in future.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video ... t.cnn.html
http://defensetech.org/2005/11/14/marin ... ew-weapon/

At times i think why not dogs used in such operation. Sniff and search kind.
I hope IA and GoI takes this incident very seriously .

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 28 Apr 2014 20:24

Bakistni terrorists are trained to target high ranks. Army has to change tactics.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Apr 2014 20:41

^^ Didnt a similar thing happen few years back where a pigLeT hid among debris after a large encounter inside a IA base and when the encounter was declared closed and senior generals were visiting, he blew himself up killing a few senior officers? Thought that SoPs had changed a lot after that.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Apr 2014 21:16

Rohit: I cannot imagine the grief of a parent cremating his/her child. I have been to a couple of funerals (not our Army) where parents buried their young. There are just no words to describe it.

In cases like Major Varadarajan, there will be pride. But also a lot of anger. The least our government can do is to honor the dead by a dedicated war memorial, ensuring their families are taken care of and put together a plan to kill that serpent called Pakistan

Someone on Twitter had come up with a very nice proposal: we could rename the 800 odd yojanas from Nehru dynasty to names of martyrs

saje · Post by **saje** » 28 Apr 2014 23:41

Prem Kumar wrote:we could rename the 800 odd yojanas from Nehru dynasty to names of martyrs

The Americans name their ships after their Martyrs. What better way to honour these men than to ensure that their names live on after them!

prasannasimha wrote:It is high time we start using robotic instruments to kill these terrorists or gas them etc to flush them out.

The products are there, we see them in Army exhibitions and DRDO fairs, but instead of testing those products in real life conditions like Kashmir & C'garh, we stress on IOC, FOC, dessert trials, winter trials and what not while useful lives are lost unnecessarily.

jayaaren · Post by **jayaaren** » 19 May 2014 09:32

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 326189.cms

Can anyone tell me the basis of classification of militants and terrorists. Why is the press afraid of just calling them terrorists. Its high time we stopped archaic and politically convenient phrases like state actors/non-state actors, militants, infiltrators etc. We should call them terrorists and terrorist masterminds period. None of this dancing around with a hand in the pocket.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 19 May 2014 12:36

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 326189.cms

Can anyone tell me the basis of classification of militants and terrorists. Why is the press afraid of just calling them terrorists. Its high time we stopped archaic and politically convenient phrases like state actors/non-state actors, militants, infiltrators etc. We should call them terrorists and terrorist masterminds period. None of this dancing around with a hand in the pocket.

If you go by the basis of the rough definition of Terrorism: " The use of or threat of violence to promote a socio-political-economic-religious ideology" most Indian political parties can easily be classified as terrorist but we simply call them "protests"

member_28539 · Post by **member_28539** » 25 May 2014 13:58

Times Now reporting a fierce gun battle between terrorists & security forces...joint op by lashkar & HM...

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 26 May 2014 10:35

2 killed & search operations is going on

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 15 Jun 2014 11:12

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 20 Jun 2014 09:50

Picture of the 3 Hizbul pigs killed yesterday in south Kashmir’s Tral area by 3 Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and police’s Special Operation Group.

LINK

member_28443 · Post by **member_28443** » 23 Jun 2014 18:38

Dear all,

During my Master's thesis research (see p. 37), I have come across some interesting work on military philosophy in Indian counterinsurgency. It refers to the impact of Kautilyan statecraft philosophy (refers to the principles of 'conciliation,' 'monetary inducement,' 'splitting' and 'force' as fundamentals of COIN, that can be used in any number of combinations to defeat insurgent movements) on Indian counterinsurgency. I came across this argument in the works of Kaushik Roy (Jadavpur University) and Subir Bhaumik (former BBC Northeast India Correspondent). While this is similar to the 'hearts & minds' literature and discusses many of the same concepts, it has a slightly different emphasis that H&M approaches perhaps downplay, which I find interesting.

Wondered what people thought to this argument, and if anyone could point me toward more of similar kinds of literature in order to gain a better understanding of this line of thinking?

Regards,

Alex

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 02 Jul 2014 08:35

Special Report - National Security Guard (NSG): Making of Black Cats

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 02 Jul 2014 09:18

@16 mins talks about Phantom units.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jul 2014 10:11

^^ Is this some kind of "SF within NSG"?

Says that RSTV is reporting this regiment for first time!

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 03 Jul 2014 10:15

Infiltration bid foiled by Indian army in J&K, three intruders killed

JAMMU: Three intruders were killed on Thursday morning during an infiltration bid along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district, police said.

A gunfight between the army and the group of heavily armed infiltrators is on, authorities said here.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 03 Jul 2014 10:43

Alex wrote:I have come across some interesting work on military philosophy in Indian counterinsurgency. It refers to the impact of Kautilyan statecraft philosophy (refers to the principles of 'conciliation,' 'monetary inducement,' 'splitting' and 'force' as fundamentals of COIN, that can be used in any number of combinations to defeat insurgent movements) on Indian counterinsurgency. I came across this argument in the works of Kaushik Roy (Jadavpur University) and Subir Bhaumik (former BBC Northeast India Correspondent). While this is similar to the 'hearts & minds' literature and discusses many of the same concepts, it has a slightly different emphasis that H&M approaches perhaps downplay, which I find interesting.

Wondered what people thought to this argument, and if anyone could point me toward more of similar kinds of literature in order to gain a better understanding of this line of thinking?

Hi Alex, The strategy of 'Sam' (conciliation/persuasion/advise), 'Dam' (monetary inducement/temptation), 'Dand' (force/punishment) and 'Bhed' (splitting/exploiting the secrets) comes from the book of Chanakya Neeti authored ky Kautilya (also known as Chanakya).

This philosophy is not just confined to CI rather this has a much wider use in the field of diplomatic rivalry, power struggle and even in an event of war. You may want to read about Kautilya and his disciple Chandragupta Maurya to get the context of this philosophy.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Jul 2014 20:06

Although I hate to link this rag, but it's good news if true.

The Big Push In Red Corridors
The Centre is gearing up to take on the Maoists in a fight to the finish. And Bastar will be the epicentre of the battle.
http://www.tehelka.com/the-big-push-in-red-corridors/

A disturbing sense of calm has enveloped Bastar in the past few weeks. The Maoist-hit region in south Chhattisgarh has seen few incidents of violence since the Narendra Modi-led NDA government was sworn in at the Centre. But, to the predominantly tribal population of Bastar, this uneasy stillness is more like the lull before a storm. After all, the Maoists are yet to show any signs of giving up the path of violence to achieve their goal of “overthrowing the Indian State”. The current respite from violence only means that the Red rebels are watching the new regime’s moves and waiting to strike at an opportune moment.

Sources suggest that several Maoist-affected states, including Chhattisgarh, are planning a coordinated operation against the Red extremists. The Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) will be the nodal agency for the entire operation and work closely with all the affected states. The Centre has kick-started the operation by approving the deployment of 10 additional battalions of paramilitary forces in Chhattisgarh.

Police officials in Chhattisgarh, however, are upbeat about the resolve shown by both the Centre and the state government to take on the Maoists. “We will now be able to deal with Naxalism the way we want to. The Centre is at least listening to us patiently now. Earlier, they used to raise all sorts of questions. But this time, they not only heard us out in the very first meeting, but they also immediately cleared several of our demands.”

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2014 02:43

The only way we are going to clean this mess up is by halting all NGO activity in the area fighting them dirty. None of this bullsh*t of packing 30 troops in an armored vehicle and sending them off on the main route through the forests only to have them blown to pieces by IEDs. Moreover, none of this "commando training" to police officers and slapping hi tech gizmos and camo onto them without a clear objective. Otherwise, they'll be roaming the forests like idiots shooting only a few of those buggers every few months. We need a comprehensive strategy and it needs to be intelligence centric. Target and capture their leaders and those that provide monetary and logistic support to them including those bloody missionaries, urban intellectuals, etc. This ulcer has been around for almost 2-3 decades. Bloody hell, only in India. We need to move past this in 5 years tops. Bloody joke.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 05 Jul 2014 05:35

Containing and eliminating naxal issue is doable with a combination of inclusive development and diligent strategy and strong action against top leaders. Indira Gandhi nearly killed naxalism in India, but after her passing it has gained ground. I am confident Modi sarkar will get the job done.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 05 Jul 2014 12:25

Self Delete

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Oct 2014 23:02

http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertain ... 71862.aspx

I no longer don the uniform. But I did once, in the year the recently released movie Haider is set. And in the same place, the Kashmir Valley. I may have been young then, and Haider may be a work of fiction, but I did come across many characters Vishal Bhardwaj and Basharat Peer have crafted for the movie. More significantly, I was a part of the environment the movie is set in, and may have even shaped it in my own little way.

Of course, no Indian movie can have Indian Army as the villain and so the movie ends up depicting the pro-India counterinsurgency group, Ikhwaan as the evil guys. That's the closest --- by proxy --- Peer and Bhardwaj could have come to showing India and Indian Army as being the bad guys. Subtle but well done and par for the course for a political movie. So what was the truth about Ikhwaan-ul-Muslimoon?

....

Everything the movie says about Ikhwaan is perhaps true. The group was supported by the Indian Army and operated alongside it. It countered terror with terror of its own against Pakistan-backed terrorists and their over ground supporters. Ikhwaanis illegally felled timber and sold it (Koka Parray acknowledged that in an interview to Harinder Baweja of India Today in 1995), extorted money from shopkeepers, street vendors and even bus-passengers at checkpoints it established. It also probably did things much worse than that. After all, these Ikhwaanis had been trained in Pakistan, had operated as terrorists and knew how to fleece the Kashmiris for personal benefits.

Why did Indian Army prop up Ikhwaanis under Koka Parray? Koka Parray was a folk-singer from Hajan who was trained in PoK and later surrendered after being with the Hizbul Mujahideen. Till 1994, he was a small-time informer for the infantry battalion at Manasbal, who gained such prominence by 1995 that he was being courted by top military commanders and politicians. Koka Parray was a prized asset not only because he could do the dirty job for the army, but because he was the only one to provide a breakthrough in a war India seems to be losing --- or at best, not winning --- in Kashmir.

Ikhwaanis provided intelligence, intimate local knowledge and understanding of the militant tactics which the army didn't possess. The success was immediate and reflected in the parliamentary elections of 1996. Most people forget that even Farooq Abdullah had boycotted the 1996 Lok Sabha polls, anticipating that they will be a stunning failure. The "success" of 1996 Lok Sabha polls encouraged Dr. Abdullah to participate in the 1996 Vidhan Sabha elections, which led to resumption of the political process and Kashmir's slow march towards normalcy.
What was India like in early 1990s? It was still recovering from the economic crisis and politically, it was in great turmoil. Babri Masjid had been demolished by the Sangh Parivar, Rajiv Gandhi had been assassinated by the LTTE, Mandal Commission had opened cleavages in the society, militancy was still at its peak in Punjab, and serious charges of corruption (from Harshad Mehta and payment to JMM MPs to Urea Scam) were levelled against PM Narasimha Rao.

Internationally, the Cold War had ended with the disintegration of India's strategic ally, the USSR. Pakistan had been at the forefront of defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the world's sole superpower owed Pakistan a few favours. So much so that Robin Raphael, First Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asian Affairs under President Clinton, was actively supporting Kashmiri separatism and helped form the Hurriyat as a political face of the Pakistan-fuelled militancy in Kashmir. In those pre 9/11 days, there was no global consensus against Islamist terror. India felt under siege, both at home and abroad. It is in these circumstances that the Indian establishment took to Ikhwaan as a tactical succour. And however loathe we might be to acknowledge it today, the coming in of Ikhwaanis turned the tide in India's favour. It was not the best option but as anyone who has served in counterinsurgency knows, there are no good options in counterinsurgency. You always choose the least bad option and perhaps Ikhwaan was the least bad option at that time.

It must be reiterated though that whether due to Kashmiri politics or due to Indian apathy, the Ikhwaanis were soon marginalised and ceased to exist, both as a counterinsurgent group and as a political force in the Valley. Praveen Swami's obituary in Frontline magazine of Koka Parray after his killing by two Hizbul terrorists in 2003 adequately captures the decline of Ikhwaan in the state. That reinforces my belief that Ikhwaan wasn't a strategic choice exercised by the Indian Army but only a tactical ploy to overcome a very difficult situation at a specific time. Weren't Petraeus and other American generals hailed for doing the same in Iraq?

...

The interrogation centre in Haider is called Mama-2, a clever nod to the now-mythologised interrogation centre called Papa-2 in Srinagar. But the movie gets it wrong. Papa stands not for father but for the phonetic word associated with letter P; if it started with letter M, the place would be called Mike and not Mama. Frivolities aside, Papa-2 was run by BSF --- not the army though it got intelligence ascertained from militants detained there --- and closed down in 1996. Did torture happen in Papa-2 or in other detentions by the security forces?
...

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 21 Oct 2014 23:08

schinnas wrote:Containing and eliminating naxal issue is doable with a combination of inclusive development and diligent strategy and strong action against top leaders. Indira Gandhi nearly killed naxalism in India, but after her passing it has gained ground. I am confident Modi sarkar will get the job done.

+1
But because of the uncheck in last 2+ decades we need to use a force in combination with the other three

member_28443 · Post by **member_28443** » 22 Oct 2014 13:18

Asit P wrote: Hi Alex, The strategy of 'Sam' (conciliation/persuasion/advise), 'Dam' (monetary inducement/temptation), 'Dand' (force/punishment) and 'Bhed' (splitting/exploiting the secrets) comes from the book of Chanakya Neeti authored ky Kautilya (also known as Chanakya).

This philosophy is not just confined to CI rather this has a much wider use in the field of diplomatic rivalry, power struggle and even in an event of war. You may want to read about Kautilya and his disciple Chandragupta Maurya to get the context of this philosophy.

Thanks for your response. I did indeed read up on aspects of Kautilyan statecraft and, more broadly, the impact of other strategic philosophies (dharmayuddha vs kutayuddha at its broadest) throughout history and incorporated aspects of this into my thesis. Thanks very much for the above responses.

I have now passed on from my Master's thesis and have begun researching my PhD, currently focusing on Operation: Bajrang and Operation: Rhino in Assam CI missions in the early 1990s. Specifically, I want to find out what set the Indian state into motion in 1990 rather than earlier, and how far these operations altered the power dynamics within the state.

If anybody has any reading recommendations that cover the military operations in detail, or indeed the insurgency/CI more broadly, these would be hugely appreciated.

Regards

Alex

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Nov 2014 22:42

FWIW only ....

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
For twenty years they couldn't catch Wooden Apostle. A hack tells me, Invincible Pigeon sees himself as Arjun. His Fish-eye? Wooden Apostle.

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"I have old scores to settle with Wooden Apostle," Invincible Pigeon told this right wing hack. "And this time I have a patriot backing me."

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"In 2005 Pak shifted Wooden Apostle to PoK for a week," said Pigeon to our hack. "I pleaded with friends to bomb him. Pleaded. They didn't."

Dawood ibrahim = Wooden Apostle
Ajit Doval = Invincible Pigeon

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 26 Nov 2014 15:57

Feeling overwhelmed reading this

RIP Bro http://www.rediff.com/news/special/mumb ... 141126.htm
Death of a Hero: How Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan was ambushed

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 26 Nov 2014 15:59

Aditya G wrote:FWIW only ....

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
For twenty years they couldn't catch Wooden Apostle. A hack tells me, Invincible Pigeon sees himself as Arjun. His Fish-eye? Wooden Apostle.

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"I have old scores to settle with Wooden Apostle," Invincible Pigeon told this right wing hack. "And this time I have a patriot backing me."

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"In 2005 Pak shifted Wooden Apostle to PoK for a week," said Pigeon to our hack. "I pleaded with friends to bomb him. Pleaded. They didn't."
Dawood ibrahim = Wooden Apostle
Ajit Doval = Invincible Pigeon

this is worth in gold

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 28 Nov 2014 03:24

Just watched this video of unseen footage of 26/11, hosted by Shiv.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/reca ... 03720.html

Spoiler :
I really like how he keeps repeatedly calling them Pakistani. Makes such a pleasant change from all the "militants", "non-state actors", "terrorists" etc, that we keep hearing so much.

Good job Shiv for calling it for what it is.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 28 Nov 2014 03:29

VikB wrote:
Aditya G wrote:FWIW only ....

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
For twenty years they couldn't catch Wooden Apostle. A hack tells me, Invincible Pigeon sees himself as Arjun. His Fish-eye? Wooden Apostle.

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"I have old scores to settle with Wooden Apostle," Invincible Pigeon told this right wing hack. "And this time I have a patriot backing me."

Lutyens Masala @LutyensMasala · Nov 16
"In 2005 Pak shifted Wooden Apostle to PoK for a week," said Pigeon to our hack. "I pleaded with friends to bomb him. Pleaded. They didn't."

Dawood ibrahim = Wooden Apostle
Ajit Doval = Invincible Pigeon
this is worth in gold

Newb question, who is Lutyens Masala/Spice? I have heard the name thrown around but never evinced my interest until now. I looked through his twitter handle and i find that it has a lots of interesting tidbits. Shame that there isint a list of code names to persona's i can consult to figure out who some of the principle characters of these tidbits are..

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 28 Nov 2014 05:08

The deceased included four militants holed up in a bunker after possibly infiltrating into the Arnia sector from across the border in Jammu district. At least one militant was alive and the encounter was still on, police said. Tanks have been deployed in a possible move to blast the bunker. Mr. Modi is due to address a rally on Friday in Udhampur district.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 639351.ece

damn Only one AFSPDS round enough to Smash the Bunker ... but till now why they not doing this

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 Nov 2014 06:42

SajeevJino wrote:
The deceased included four militants holed up in a bunker after possibly infiltrating into the Arnia sector from across the border in Jammu district. At least one militant was alive and the encounter was still on, police said. Tanks have been deployed in a possible move to blast the bunker. Mr. Modi is due to address a rally on Friday in Udhampur district.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 639351.ece

damn Only one AFSPDS round enough to Smash the Bunker ... but till now why they not doing this

HESH, and to a lesser extent HEAT are more effective against bunkers than FSAPDS. Not to mention a variety of options available with Carl Gustav.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 28 Nov 2014 08:15

SajeevJino wrote:
The deceased included four militants holed up in a bunker after possibly infiltrating into the Arnia sector from across the border in Jammu district. At least one militant was alive and the encounter was still on, police said. Tanks have been deployed in a possible move to blast the bunker. Mr. Modi is due to address a rally on Friday in Udhampur district.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 639351.ece

damn Only one AFSPDS round enough to Smash the Bunker ... but till now why they not doing this

APFSDS is only useful for making neat little holes in tanks, the tank armour and the tungsten or DU penetrator (just a huge metal crossbow bolt without any explosives) results in a spray of molten metal and shrapnel on the inside from the impact. This does not always happen and sometimes the round will pass right through both sides of the tank, in these cases you need to hope for a lucky shot to hit someone or something critical inside the tank.

Against a more organic target like a Bunker or even against troops in the open, APFSDS will not be able to hit a hard enough surface to be able to break into shrapnel. So in essence you are shooting a giant crossbow bolt at above the speed of sound and hoping you hit someone.

As suggested above, HESH (the equivalent of a molotov cocktail but with high explosives instead of fuel) would work a lot better.

But why go that far, using the tank for protection and just using the co-axial machine gun would be enough. I doubt the terrorists brought anti tank weapons with them.

P.S. The article states that the terrorists were dressed in army uniforms, is this a new tactic adopted by the porkis? I dont recall hearing of them using our uniforms to ambush in the past.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Nov 2014 08:45

^^ Umm, actually they have used this tactic quite a bit recently.

Even the last set of fatalities was where a IA checkpost was attacked by pests dressed in army fatigues 1-2 months back

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 28 Nov 2014 08:49

No tanks were used. BMP was the one that was seen in the video and not any tanks as such.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 28 Nov 2014 09:59

sum wrote:^^ Umm, actually they have used this tactic quite a bit recently.

Even the last set of fatalities was where a IA checkpost was attacked by pests dressed in army fatigues 1-2 months back

Huh, i guess i must have missed that. Hope we have formulated some identification measures to neutralize this tactic. As we move to network centric and future warfare, personal IFF systems similar to those used on aircraft should begin to be used by Infantry.

uddu wrote:No tanks were used. BMP was the one that was seen in the video and not any tanks as such.

What video? could you link please? Those BMP's autocannons will shred just about anything... I hope they were used in the encounter

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Nov 2014 12:37

maybe they thinking why waste a bunker for these pigs. Like why burn the house down to kill the cockroaches