Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Apr 2014 19:51

Supratik wrote:I don't think you can generalize. There are plenty of ex-armed forces in the Sangh. IIRC, the Sangh has a dedicated arm for ex-servicemen. VKS being the latest.

I have an OT question regarding Arunachal for RahulM since he seems to be based there. Who is winning the battle of converts - EJs or Dharmics?

not based but I've been there. 51-49 in favour of EJ's.

AjitK · Post by **AjitK** » 29 Apr 2014 19:54

gandharva wrote:Diggy Raja caught with her Bhairavi

Hain?! Is this true? She once interviewed him on Rajya Sabha TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43aSqBDmsD8

arminius · Post by **arminius** » 29 Apr 2014 19:59

Rahul M wrote:
Supratik wrote:I don't think you can generalize. There are plenty of ex-armed forces in the Sangh. IIRC, the Sangh has a dedicated arm for ex-servicemen. VKS being the latest.

I have an OT question regarding Arunachal for RahulM since he seems to be based there. Who is winning the battle of converts - EJs or Dharmics?
not based but I've been there. 51-49 in favour of EJ's.

I can recall that way back in 80s Aadis were being converted and Mishmis were more or less untouched by EJs. At least Dibang Valley had that composition.

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Apr 2014 20:04

RajeshA wrote:...I wanted to give a "secular" response which can justify doing anything with anybody from Pakistan (West or East) who crosses the border into India.

RajeshA'ji see VenuG'ji and my responses on Saba Naqvi. She got it good.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 29 Apr 2014 20:07

A fair amount of the conversion happened at the point of a gun courtesy Naga groups. They would simply walk into a village and say "from tomorrow you are Christians so build a church. Any questions?" Hope the new dispensation is able to stop this and be VERY tough with the fuggin Nagas.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 29 Apr 2014 20:11

Anyone is free to fight elections from anywhere but once you are in the election field, you fight for yourself, not for your martyred son (Who everyone respects), nor for some dead ex-PM who was killed and mysteriously he becomes someone who died for the country nor to fulfill someone else's dreams.

You can not get into a pond and take bath on someone else's behalf..

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Apr 2014 20:11

SanjayC wrote:What to make of this?

Kargil martyr Vikram Batra's mother calls Narendra Modi "pseudo-patriot"

Batra who will be fighting the Lok Sabha elections from Palampur in Himachal Pradesh made the statement after Modi,

Captain Vikram Batra's family had asked BJP to refrain from politicising martyrdom for electoral gains in the Lok Sabha Elections..

Errr. actually, it is the Batra family which is trying to reap electoral gains from their son's name by standing in elections.

Batra's mother has used her son's sacrifices for her own personal gain. She has sullied her son's sacrifices today.

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Apr 2014 20:13

SandeepA wrote:Is this even being reported in MSM?

No. Priyanka is the talk of her town because of her speech in Amethi tagetting NaMo.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Apr 2014 20:16

SaiK wrote:well written, but I don't agree with conclusions:

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/a- ... epage=true

Shiv Viswanathan is downhill-skiing in this article; even earlier in the campaign, when Modi's success was less certain, he has written pieces calling Modi "evil" and repeating the absurd "fascist" canard of Ashish Nandy. This is a kind of peace offering; he is positioning himself to offer his "good english" skills and professional semiotics / critical theory type black magic to interpret Modi for the West.

We might say this is a Sudheendra Kulkarni moment for Shiv Viswanathan. He is pitching for a job. I hope Modi is intelligent to keep such characters at a distance. I have less hope for the BJP itself.

I hope I won't be struck by the Bredators for saying this, and yes is borderline OT, but if you have been following Shiv Viswanathan's articles in the Hindu like I have, you would see the "cunning brahmin" at work. SV has spent a career as a tool and mouthpiece for DIE elite-Western elitemen (stealing Shri Rahul Mehta's coinage) combine. And here he is, on the threshold of what might be Modi's ascension (Modi will lose onlee) turning on a dime, essentially signaling to Modi's people that, hey, look at me, I can spin you for the West, you need me.

Now imagine it was not Modi but actually an anti-Indic enemy that was about to take over. The Shiv Viswanathans would have then sold themselves out to the enemy just as eagerly and agilely.

We keep talking about how India was repeatedly betrayed and sold out to its enemies. Thanks to the rise of Modi, I think we are seeing the exact anatomy of that sellout in action.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Apr 2014 20:19

RamaY wrote:
Singha wrote:they can burn all the files, even burn the entire N and S block to the foundations , but I am sure for own protection certain people have made secure duplicates.
such people through inducement and threats will talk if a proper investigation is done.

the wrath of the Dharma must burn all evil from where they hide...starting top down.
I will forgive the termite family if they set Delhi on fire, the whole of it for good. Delhi has seen much destruction to Native dharma. The karma must catchup in fire.

India desperately need to build a new capital.

Gurudev, see if you can burn the Kabila in your story.

Let Kashi be the new capital.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Apr 2014 20:26

^^^ Modi apparently proposed Hyderabad as alternative captial

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Apr 2014 20:30

Sanku wrote:^^^ Modi apparently proposed Hyderabad as alternative captial

that would work too, or Bhopal or Lucknow. We should take it in a spirit of reconquista.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 29 Apr 2014 20:32

X-posting from this thread:Link
Posted: 12 Dec 2013 11:21 pm

johnee wrote: Guys, we all know New Delhi is the capital of India. But not many of us know is that Ambedkar while taking over Hyderabad state had proposed Hyderabad as the second capital of India. This opens a debate. Should India have two capitals? If so why? If not why not? If so, which city could be the choice. Remember, the debate is not about moving the capital away from New Delhi, but using another city as the second capital. Lets start the debate.

johnee wrote: This is from wikipedia:

n 1955, Ambedkar is so impressed with amenities of Hyderabad that, he argued to make Hyderabad as second capital of India. He said "Hyderabad has all the amenities which Delhi has and it is a far better City than Delhi. It has all the grandeur which Delhi has. Buildings are going cheap and they are really beautiful buildings, far superior to those in Delhi. The only thing that is wanting is a Parliament House which the Government of India can easily build."
[15]

The question is , would the government in the second capital be autonomous or part of the govenment in delhi? and if it is under the part of the government then what is the division in power ratio like?
There wont be a separate Govt. There will be only one Govt which will shift from Delhi to second Capital and back to Delhi. Just one Govt, one PM, on HM, on DM...etc. Two capitals. Closer to people. Regional balance. No scope for anyone to create north-south faultlines, in terms of security: more balanced approach.

Decentralizing the union government from Delhi will disturb the fabric of India. Over a period, NCR has become a perfect Indian region with people of all origins residing. Delhi isn't quite a 'north Indian' place, it's Indian.

Moving the capital to and fro also polarizes India over a period of time, and creates two power centers. Although it's just the one government ruling from two different places, there's always the risk of factions being created in the government. Delhi and Hyderabad will always be at a conflict. This will eventually lead to division of the country.
I agree two power-centres will be created and obviously they will not agree all the time. But it will not lead to division, on the contrary it will lead to a balanced approach especially in regard to Pakistan. I feel, that in delhi circles, there is a certain nostalgia about it, and they frequently get fooled by Pakistan due to it. It will reduce, if a south-indian capital is also in place. Because south-indians have no nostalgia with regard to pakistan.

I have a question why only two? Why not more? This is simply ridiculous

Till now I was thinking we are one country
Nitesh, one country can have two capitals. Capital is just a place of governance. It does not denote entire country.

Couldn't understand even a bit about this . the people would be the same the how would you curb nostalgia? moreover many of our ministers are south indians , doesn't that automatically curb nostalgia?
Yep, that does curb nostalgia. But beureuacracy is still not out of it. If they change location, they can get out of such things. The main idea is that over a period of time beureaucracy develops some pattern of thinking due to their place of stay, this pattern need to be broken by bringing in fresh ideas. So one capital in north and one is south would serve the purpose. If the delhi were in east, we could have had a capital in west.

By this logic why can't it have more the two capitals.
We could. But it becomes extremely impractical unless we make them namesake capitals i.e. capital only in name but not in function. But if we want two capitals(not simulatneously) then two is the limit. The division of time could be every 6months or every two and half years.

No sir, Delhi doesn't have a nostalgia to Pakistan. On the contrary, Nizam was contemplating joining the Pakistan dominion (which lead India to invade and annexe Hyderabad). Besides, I don't see how 'nostalgia to Pakistan' has anything to do with the need for a power centre shift. South India is the country's most economically forward region. It isn't deprived of the centre's attention, so why a power center here?
Nizam did not have popular support, boss. I am a Telanganite and I can tell you proudly that "yes, the nizam wanted to join the pakistan and he sent razaqars after us to kill us. but we still stuck with India and defeated the nizam in joining Pakistan". Even today, Paks hope to get back Hyderabad. The other day Hafiz Sayeed mentioned two places, one Kashmir and the other Hyderabad. Making it a second capital nips such ideas in the bud. Secondly, since south india is country's most economically forward place, it needs a powercentre to be able to influence the policies. For eg: the rice prices offered by the Govt are much less than the rich prices offered for Wheat. Also, remember the UP farmers went to delhi and protested, it had an immediate effect on the policy change, whereas the farmers suiceds continue in AP and Maha. The recent Telangana problem has forced the AP politics to shift to delhi. The feeling here is that outside delhi is making policies while the leaders here are impotently watching. And this feeling is prevalent in both the pro-telangana and pro-united AP camps. There is dravidian politics in TN. All this can be balanced out with a south-indian capital(not necessarily Hyd).

Well sorry I am not getting what are you trying to convey here
Nitesh, many separatist use delhi as symbol and incite hate against it. This happens in Kashmir, NE and it happened in TN during dravidian politics. This danger is always present. Yes, rightnow everything looks beautiful, but when trouble starts things go haywire. This is especially true when there is a weak leadership. AP was till 3 months back doing extremely well, and now look at its position. To avoid such problems, we need to have checks and balances in place. Delhi is one corner of India and can be easily incited against. When the govt moves from one corner to the other regularly, it gives an impression that it belongs to everyone. Also, location of a place can have affect on the thinking pattern of beuracratic members as well, breaking that pattern is good thing otherwise lack of fresh ideas will make our policies stagnated. Our Pakistani policy is the best example, there is a lack of imagination in our policy. This is perhaps because beuareacrats have got used to one way of thinking. This is visible in many policies but its effects are well observed in pakistani policy. Two capitals can integrate india better, take away the delhi-strawman that separatists present and bring in fresh ideas, bring governance closer to all regions of the people.

Gentlemen why not have a supreme court bench in South India with the CJI residing alternatively in Delhi and Hyd.Having a separate capital in the sense is that bureacracy will be the saame but it will work in both areas
Good suggestion, mate. Positive contribution to the thread. I think we need to collectively use some imagination instead of fearing everything. well done.

No, you said 'same government, different location'. So bureaucracy doesn't change. It's the same people working from another location. Now having two sets of bureaucrats is too much of a burden.
tarunraju ↑
Yep, same beareaucrats will work in new environment with new people and hence any policy stagnation can change. The thinking pattern will over course of time become more balanced instead of only one way of thinking.

Johnee I respect you as a friend and member, but I think having 2 capitals is a mental idea. Why doesn't America have 2 capitals like one in the west and one in the east, or Russia even.
StealthSniper ↑
Mate, India always takes the best ideas and customises it to her needs. US was a free market and russia was state controlled one. We mixed both. We took our constitution from UK , US and incorporated some of our own. We are still a new country only 60 yrs old. We can get better by taking better models of governing our country instead of being stuck with what british did in our country. British used Delhi as the capital and we used the same after transfer of power. We did not think whether another capital was need or not. Ambedkar who wrote our constitution felt there was need for second capital and that capital would serve better if it is situated in south. He proposed Hyd. We not agree with his proposed city but his ideas cannot be rubbished as mental. They need to be studied deeply.

Tarun, nostalgia for Hyd exists within Pakistan. not vice versa. Nostalgia for Pakistan it seems to me exist in some powercircles of delhi. Get the subtle difference.

national capital is the best place to resolve inter-state problems and state capital is the best place to resolve intra state problems. When the state is run literally by the national capital that is far away, it invariably creates hatred.

When the capital is closer, dravidian politics cannot use 'far-away-delhi' strawman to rally its audience.

What russia has done, what US has done or what china has done is upto it. India needs its own solutions. we dont need to ape anyone. The regional difference of culture in India is more than in any country of this size.

I also don't agree with the (2 capital 1 bureaucracy) idea because when it comes to making quick decisions that can affect a billion people we need one clear voice that we can trust and having to confirm with the North and South on things might mean we will never agree on key issues. Also if we are attacked or need a reaction right away, we might not have a strong response in time. If the government takes the side of the South then their will be unrest in the North and it will be even worse if the South made a wrong decision. I think the government we have right now is not perfect (I agree) but I think that right now it's working and our economy is improving and I don't see what's wrong?
StealthSniper ↑
SS, there can only one beareucracy. So when decisions are made there will be no north-south disagreement. Only one PM will stay in delhi once and in hyd once. He will still make decisions. And his decisions will have the same authority.

Praveen, the feudal nature of politics in north is a myth. The politics is mostly feudal in UP and Bihar. The other places in north are more or less better. Its the leaders from UP and Bihar that are really the problem for India. So, many PMs have come from UP, that is another problem. PVN was from south and he changed many policies. We reap benefits of PVN's leadership today.

I am sorry mate but how come having two capitals can solve the problem of citing Delhi it is laughable to say at least I mean what will stop politician to start a stir that there state is not getting "capital" this will convert to an anarchy it's not a good idea to think in these lines
nitesh ↑
I agree there is that risk. Therefore the process needs to be done in wise manner. But delhi's remoteness is always going to be a problem. If not now in future. A second capital in Hyd would be best because of its location. It is cross-section of west, south and north. Maybe another similar city can be chosen if Hyd is not accepted. But having a second capital can really benefit India in many ways.

It's not a risk it is for sure shot why not every state have 2 capitals then uh why 2 only why not more uh why why stop here every street can be a capital why stop at street every home can be a capital you are trying to stir a hornet's nest this will never stop.
nitesh ↑
I agree, every state must have two capitals. Infact two capitals in a state would defeat many separate state movements. For eg: in bengal, the priniciple excuse for seperate state of bodoland is distance from capital.
By having two capitals, this can be defeated and the governance can be improved. But only big states need two capitals, not smaller states.

Sir not only movements are regional in nature; religious, tribal, caste, language movements exist too.
For eg division of Punjab into 3 states was a language issue.
Impending division of Andhra is a regional issue.
Singh ↑
Sure, but 2 capitals can atleast checkmate one kind of movements. Also one acts as trigger to the other. When a movement starts, it starts with some excuse then it uses all the difference including language, religion, or culture. 2 capitals can be effective checking many of them.

BTW, I didnt know the division of AP was impending. No need to reply to this, lest we go off-topic.

^^also singh, 2 capitals can bring governace closer to people both at a state level and national level.

Johnee you hadn't got me I am saying that once you start doing this it will not stop do you have any suggestion how to stop people demanding for more then 2 capitals
nitesh ↑
Nitesh, setting up two captials is much easier and simpler than creating new states. Yes, there will be demands, but there must be a proper mechanism to determine which place is suitable to be the second capital. There are always risked involved in every political decision, but if these risks deter us from taking any new decision, then it would lead to dangerous consequencies.

nitesh are you taking this thread sriously? i was just having some fun
thakur_ritesh ↑
Ritesh, never take any suggestion comically. At first it looks absurd and ridiculous. But as it grows in popularity, it becomes serious. The idea of Pakistan was also not taken seriously by populace until suddenly one day India was partitioned.

Link to another forum

One particular admin of that forum was from dilli and he was riled with the suggestion. He kept trolling in the thread and then finally locked it...even gave me a temporary ban.

----
If Modi proposed this idea, then I think Modi's team or Modi is following this thread.

member_28173 · Post by **member_28173** » 29 Apr 2014 20:36

Let Kashi be the new capital.[/quote]
+10000000000000000000

If not anything , he should be Kashi most of time. RULE FROM KASHI

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Apr 2014 20:37

Sanku wrote:^^^ Modi apparently proposed Hyderabad as alternative captial

should I hold on to my RE in Hyd then?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 29 Apr 2014 20:41

Vijaynagar should be rebuilt & named the Capital of India. The PM's residence should have a view of the Virupaksha Temple.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 29 Apr 2014 20:46

arminius wrote:
Singha wrote:it usually is career growth.
Not voucing for the authencity, but rumours on twitter say that she works for Rajya Sabha TV.

Her husband (or ex) is Anand Pradhan of Indian Institute of Mass Communication https://twitter.com/anandpradhan

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Apr 2014 20:47

Please stop derailing this thread with fantasies about alternate capitals

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 29 Apr 2014 20:55

KLNMurthy wrote:but if you have been following Shiv Viswanathan's articles in the Hindu like I have, you would see the "cunning brahmin" at work.

KLNMji,
I cant resist this reply.The 'cunning brahmin' at work here is NOT shiv vicchu.Vicchu is more of an uncouth clown.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Apr 2014 21:10

arminius wrote:
Rahul M wrote: not based but I've been there. 51-49 in favour of EJ's.
I can recall that way back in 80s Aadis were being converted and Mishmis were more or less untouched by EJs. At least Dibang Valley had that composition.

I am not aware of the exact situation with mishmis.
aadis are mostly converted but the nyishis, who are majority have a strong rss presence although church has made significant inroads in their mindspace too. however, in most cases the roots are not deep enough and can be altered with sustained effort. rss has raised the profile of indigenous faiths and that has helped them fight off -ve propaganda about their own system of belief. funds and more importantly, dedicated volunteers are required.

Victor, the tribes of tirap changlang are related to nagas and GOI has created an autonomous council (Dept of Tirap Changlang) which makes it easy for the various NSCN factions to influence it. folk there are 70% converted. I am afraid it's going to be the next flashpoint in NE.

the AP kid who was killed in delhi was a student of RK Mission narottamnagar, in tirap.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140215/j ... 941115.jsp

in general, AP folk, irrespective of religion identify as Indians and are patriotic.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 Apr 2014 21:11

disha wrote:Batra's mother has used her son's sacrifices for her own personal gain. She has sullied her son's sacrifices today.

Agree. Very disappointed with her. One would have expected her to have a strong sense of nationalism and joined BJP. Instead, she joined AAP, a truly anti-national, anti-army, anti-Hindu party, with strings being pulled from abroad to harm India. Worse, she takes potshots at Modi, giving ammunition to Cong and news channels who are now carrying prime time debates about how Modi is using Batra's sacrifice for political gain. Truly disgusting. She will squander away all the goodwill from the society if she continues like this. She has been very ill advised and looks like she got brainwashed by spin masters of AAP.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Apr 2014 21:14

Just yesterday an article on RSS work in Arunachal Pradesh floated by in my feed. Will post if I am able to locate it.
OK here it is.

RSS turns Arunachal tribals towards Hinduism
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 231_1.html

The RSS affiliates, famous for converting tribals in central India, are having a field day now in Arunachal like the missionaries had earlier

If Ramakant Keshav Desphande, founder of the RSS-affiliated Adivasi Kalyan Ashram, were alive, would he be proud of this achievement? Nearly 10 years after he passed away, his photograph hangs just above the god's idol in a thatched-roof temple in New Chingsa village, from where it looks upon the devotees. In row with Desphande's photograph are paintings of Swami Vivekanda and Buddha. It's quite a feat considering that New Chingsa is a village of 80-odd Tangsa tribal families in Changlang district, Arunachal Pradesh, bordering Myanmar. It is all the more incredible because Tangsa people have traditionally been animists, with their supreme spirit, the Rangfraa, not bound to temples, idols or any form.

On a Sunday morning, the atmosphere in the temple in the New Chingsa is frenetic. "Jai Rangfraa, Jai Rangfraa, Jai Rangfraa." The devotees' incantations pick up a feverish pace as the half a dozen priests standing near the idol slip into a trance, shaking and shivering. The Rangfraa idol looks like a Mongoloid white Shiva. This Shiva-like Rangfraa is a creation of the RSS affiliates who have converted the animist belief system of Tangsa in to a sect of Hinduism and Rangfraa into a clone of Shiva.

The Tangsa, migrants from the Indo-Tibetan plateau, number about 21,000 today and are classified as "other Naga tribes". Initially animists, many of them converted to Christianity with the advent of missionaries - mostly Baptists. The rest remained true to the animist Rangfraa beliefs.

The RSS affiliates, famous for converting tribals to Hinduism in central India, are having a field day now in Arunachal just as the missionaries had earlier. And, it's a relatively discreet effort. The Rangfraa cult is not their first project. Donyi Polo, a syncretic new religion, has already spread through the Abotani central belt of the state and Intayism similarly has been established in the Idu Mishmi tribe. Shivling keep propping up across the state, marking new territory for the project.

In the late 1990s, the RSS worked with some Tangsa leaders, including L Khimun, an engineer, to hold a painting competition at Changlang. Khimun says he and others were working to set up a society for reforms but realised it needed a religious tenor. Then he met the RSS. The painting competition was held to give a form to the god, Rangfraa. "More than 100 people participated. The winning painting just happened to look like Shiva with some traditional imagery. The painting was sent to Jodhpur. From there came the first 300-kg marble sculpture of the Rangfraa in 1997," tells the soft-spoken Khimun, now the secretary-general of the Rangfraa Faith Promotion Society. The RSS affiliates paid part of the cost of the making and transporting of the idol.

Khimun has written several holy books codifying the religion. They seem to pick ideas and moral lessons from all over but affirm that Rangfraaism is a part of the Hindu fold. Of the role of RSS and its sister organisations, he says, "They are always with us to guide and help. They provide training and resources. People from Nagpur come here at times."

"We have made a key contribution to the movement," says Kampa Taisam, the Miao block president of the Arunachal Vikas Parishad, a RSS organisation. "We distribute medicines, hold medical camps and other activities and contribute to the cost of building temples." He is also proud of his meeting RSS head Mohan Bhagwat in Nagpur.

The cult or religion now has about 1,000 members from the Tangsa, Tutsa and Nocte communities spread across Tirap and Changlang districts. That is still only two to three per cent of the total population of the three tribes put together. Many villages have Rangfraa temples now and village-level convenors.

For the RSS, looking to convert tribals to Hinduism, Arunachal Pradesh has been a ripe fruit to pick. About 20 main tribes, with hundreds of sub-tribes, are spread sparsely over difficult terrain. In towns, the relatively better off, still bound to traditional filial structures, have modern aspirations and seek to create a unique identity that gels with the rest of India. In villages, the poorer survive abysmal infrastructure in a state of near disconnect from the world outside. There is a strong sense of alienation but it largely does not boil down to secessionist desires. Many students from the state have passed through Vivekananda Kendra schools, imbibing the basic tenets of Hinduism and learning Hindi, which is spoken along with Assamese between tribes.

"They provide basic health facilities and education. The missionaries do the same. The state is all but absent when it comes to providing the basics. They come and fill the void," says a young Tangsa leader.

The anti-Christian subtext remains strong in the new Rangfraa religion, which conflates Hinduism with nationalism. There has been violence on occasions in the state between Christian tribals and the revivalist groups.

"As per our definition, all those who are willing to die and live for Hindustan are Hindu. Those who are anti-Hindu or anti-national, they criticise Rangfraaites. Especially the Christians, I shall say openly," says Khimun. His holy books speak of the need to reconvert proselytised Christians. Khimung says about 100 Christian tribals have converted to Rangfraa so far.

But the Rangfraa project has not yielded an exact replica of the Gangetic-belt Hinduism. The tribals of Arunachal Pradesh are not as vulnerable as many in Central India to cede their identity in entirety. The new gods have given birth to syncretic religions, borrowing symbolism and ideas and traditions freely. If the shaman-based system of earlier beliefs have been shun, new "mediums" have emerged providing cure and miracles. The cult has banned sacrifices of animals for rituals but going vegetarian is just an ideal. People adapt to live complex lives with several gods, benefactors and belief systems.

The project is also yet to led to any political gains for the BJP thus far. Clan and tribe relations overpower most other dynamics. "No, people won't accept our involvement in electoral politics yet," says Kampa Taisam. In Miao town, the Arunachal Vikas Parishad is still a family enterprise that he, his brother and wife run.

The irony is that these people are incidental to the larger project of Hinduisation just as they remain incidental to the Central government's strategic regulation of this frontier. Morphing lives, traditions and cultures of the Tangsa or thousands others living in villages, like New Chingsa, hardly bothers either's strategy.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2014 21:24

SRoy wrote:I posted this long ago that it will be the Armed Forces officer population and their families, by and large, that will be mostly against BJP's cultural nationalism. Unless there are other balancing factors, they being from the upper middle / upper class are certainly DIE.

Vikarm Batra's mother being AAP candidate is an validation of what I posted a couple of weeks ago.<SNIP>

That is one heck of ridiculous statement to make.

Do you know the background of Captain Vikram Batra's family to insinuate that the class they belong to is responsible for them to take a stand against BJP? Or, the cultural nationalism of BJP if that even means anything in this context?

And to call them DIE is a serious insult to simple people/families like them.

These are simple god fearing folks who by all parameters would not even meet middle class category definition. And so are many other who's sons and daughters are serving as officers in the armed forces, especially Indian Army. You know there is a running joke in these parts - my parts - that if you close your eyes and throw a stone, it will land in one army officer or another's home. None of these men come from your purported 'elite' background and that too DIE - someone who will be ashamed of their background and culture.

And BTW - the other famous PVC winner, India's first, Major Somnath Sharma, also belongs to a place under 15 kms from Batra's. Don't insult these people and their families with your crass generalization.

Just because you've your pet theory does not mean you need to shoe-horn that every where.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2014 21:38

SanjayC wrote:
disha wrote:Batra's mother has used her son's sacrifices for her own personal gain. She has sullied her son's sacrifices today.
Agree. Very disappointed with her. One would have expected her to have a strong sense of nationalism and joined BJP. Instead, she joined AAP, a truly anti-national, anti-army, anti-Hindu party, with strings being pulled from abroad to harm India. Worse, she takes potshots at Modi, giving ammunition to Cong and news channels who are now carrying prime time debates about how Modi is using Batra's sacrifice for political gain. Truly disgusting. She will squander away all the goodwill from the society if she continues like this. She has been very ill advised and looks like she got brainwashed by spin masters of AAP.

While her joining AAP is not something I condone, you need to see the ground situation in state and area she is fighting elections from. To a common person on ground, not everything will be seen from prism of national development and debate.

BJP under Dhumal and his son, Anurag Thakur, has just suffered a massive defeat in state elections; such was the apathy towards BJP in state elections that my maternal side and village, till then staunch supporters of BJP, voted en masse for Congress because of the shenanigans of local BJP MLA.

And not long ago, Anurag Thakur and his father were trying various tricks to take away land in Shimla under IA control to supposedly build Cricket Stadium; everyone and his aunt knew who owned land around the stadium. Anurah Thakur has made the state cricket association his personal fiefdom.

All the above will not be lost on the electorate.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Apr 2014 21:49

KLNM, I think you need to step out of GDF to directly respond copying your post on the twitter/comment on the chindu online onlee (hopefully they allow your posts. they deny that oppty for me as I am always ruthless to them).

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Apr 2014 21:53

disha wrote:
RajeshA wrote:...I wanted to give a "secular" response which can justify doing anything with anybody from Pakistan (West or East) who crosses the border into India.
RajeshA'ji see VenuG'ji and my responses on Saba Naqvi. She got it good.

Somehow not showing up in as responses to her tweet. But I did see your tweets!

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Apr 2014 22:08

As a matter of fact what SRoy says is true to a large extent ; the apolitical environment, the British values and traditions, being amongst the top pampered government instis apart from ONGC and other creamy layers, nice post retirement benefits for those who hang out in right circles all make an armed forces officer prone to swaying towards those who have been running this country for 60 years . BJP is an outsider and COAS V K Singh is an exception and that is why he is the first and only one to have openly said what his predecessors have never said.

This is not about officers in services only by and large majority of those who have manned executive postings and have done so for generations tend to develop close connections to those in power and hence are likely to have a favorable view of them . I don't wish to extend this to Capt. Batra's family but these are my views based on whatever I have seen in my family both mother's and father's side .

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 29 Apr 2014 22:15

^^that is a different statement than being against 'cultural nationalism' as insinuated by SRoy. In addition 'executive positions' are not the same as all officers; and even amongst executive rank you can find many exceptions to your assessment.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2014 22:21

negi wrote:As a matter of fact what SRoy says is true to a large extent ; the apolitical environment, the British values and traditions, being amongst the top pampered government instis apart from ONGC and other creamy layers, nice post retirement benefits for those who hang out in right circles all make an armed forces officer prone to swaying towards those who have been running this country for 60 years . BJP is an outsider and COAS V K Singh is an exception and that is why he is the first and only one to have openly said what his predecessors have never said.

This is not about officers in services only by and large majority of those who have manned executive postings and have done so for generations tend to develop close connections to those in power and hence are likely to have a favorable view of them . I don't wish to extend this to Capt. Batra's family but these are my views based on whatever I have seen in my family both mother's and father's side .

You're again comparing apples and oranges here.

An officer may well have his political leanings based on x-number of factors, but how does that extend to his family? As someone who comes from the hills, did your father - or those from your maternal side who are serving/served in armed forces - come from 'elite' background? And were they deracinated lot? I would wager the answer is no. Same goes for my father and others I know form my state.

There were times when officer Corps -especially in Armored Corps in Army - came from elite background. Even General VKS comes from what would be an elite background. He would be classified as landed gentry and well off by any yardstick. His is an old Rajput family.

But as one man in dark shades said - Time they are the changing; same goes for IA and other Services as well. The men are a reflection of Indian society. Simple as that. They are apolitical - which is not same as not having political view. But to call them deracinated is pure BS of the highest order. There may be some but to generalize that to officer corps across the Services is nonsense.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Apr 2014 22:24

Subu Swamy has been on this case of grab by the Gandhis.

Amit Malviya ‏@malviyamit 22m

National Herald Acquisition: Delhi court summons RoC to testify records http://www.dailypioneer.com/nation/nati ... cords.html … Gandhis in dock for swindling donor money!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2014 22:25

All that aside, one of my wishes from a nationalistic government at center, is that heroic efforts of men in 1962 be recognized. I personally feel that political and bureaucratic class - not to forget AHQ - did not do justice to the bravery of men in 1962 because everyone wanted to shrug it under carpet. I hope these brave sons of soil receive their due.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Apr 2014 22:32

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Apr 2014 22:37

Feel The Pain
जरुरत पड़े तो सेना की कमान नरेन्द्र मोदी के हाथों में अटका देना, चौबीस घन्टे
Ke Baad Agar Daud Ibrahim Bach Jayee
Tho USke Jagah Mujhe fansi Pe Latka Dena.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Apr 2014 22:46

BJP reacts sharply to PC comparing Modi with Hitler, Mussolini

http://zeenews.india.com/news/general-e ... 28410.html

"India does not need Hitler or Mussolini, that is why Narendra Modi is needed. Congress has a history of fascism.... Chidambaram is partially right when he says India does not need fascism. That is why we need to remove Congress," BJP spokesperson Meenakshi Lekhi said.

"If anybody snatched away the fundamental rights of people, it was Indira Gandhi. If anybody suppressed media freedom, it was Indira Gandhi... Rajiv Gandhi sought to suppress media by bringing in defamation law," she said.

Chidambaram had told reporters that Modi's politics borders on fascism and the country does not need a Hitler or Mussolini to solve its problems.

Lekhi also made light of Priyanka Gandhi's barb at Modi that he was being childish by using terms like 'shehzada' and 'namuna' for her brother Rahul Gandhi and said she should practice what she preaches.

"What was that about rat"? Lekhi said, referring to Priyanka's earlier jibe that BJP leaders were rattled like panic-stricken rats.

"We had tried to make her see sense yesterday and it appears it has made some impact," she said.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Apr 2014 22:47

Sswamy for all his past deeds now relentlessly attacking mafia family. Good luck to him.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Apr 2014 23:10

Suresh En ‏@surnell 1h

Yes! #AAPTard milking Martyrdom. Did they really tell her their Kashmir Agenda? I am sure they have not pic.twitter.com/A6SQX2Tkvc

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 29 Apr 2014 23:27

Mrs. Batra has written an 'open letter' to NaMo :

http://www.ndtv.com/elections/article/e ... her-515810

Mr Modi, if you really care for the army and respect martyrs, a soldier's family for you should be like God. If I were in your place, I would have withdrawn the BJP candidate who is running against me.

If you respect Captain Batra's family, you should think of me like his mother. If you used "yeh dil maange more" to praise my son...please realise...it is not enough to praise him...you should think of what can be done to honour a martyr's family.

In some villages, Aam Aadmi Party workers say "this is Shahid Vikram's mother." There is nothing wrong with that. He did sacrifice his life for the nation. He would be proud that I want to serve his country. Even if my son's name comes up, isn't it my right?

She is insulting the martyrdom of her own son. AAP has successfully brainwashed the mother of a PVC awardee into an attention hungry politician.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Apr 2014 23:36

^^^I don't expect local people to buy into her arguments. They will react the very same way people are on BRF - that she is using her son's martyrdom to ask for votes. While her loss as a mother cannot be even measured in any terms, it does not automatically make her a good political candidate.

That area has innumerable number of ex-servicemen and they will not take it kindly to the way her son's sacrifice is being used to ask for votes.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 29 Apr 2014 23:39

Could it be that someone is really urging her to write it. After giving her a draft of that 'open letter' plead with her saying something like this: "Please madam, please publish this, we need to use everything in our arsenal to make sure we win, your son's sacrifice does not go in vain"

She might have fallen for that or she might have been too emotionally invested in AAP (brainwashed) to see it from a different perspective than what the AAP group think is.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Apr 2014 23:46

john-e-ji, everything is possible within an architecture. call it disaster recovery plan. an active-active capital backup plan.