Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 29 Apr 2014 23:25

Oh I don't mean the forum in particular. I mean the Cold War era. There was a cadre of third country nationals who got really excited every time the Soviets flexed their muscles and invaded Czechoslovakia, or Angola or or Afghanistan. I don't know what they thought it would do for them, but they really thought it would be something. Its nice that those sorts of people are still around and have something to do.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Apr 2014 23:56

Johann wrote:Its so nice to see how excited some people on this thread are for the Kremlin, and how they wildly they cheer them on. It really is just like the old days. But I digress.

Trolling in this manner in future will result in a warning. Please stick to the topic at hand, instead of attacking individuals for their opinions.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 30 Apr 2014 01:09

Dear Suraj, if you say that single line in a substantially longer post counts as an attack on an individual then of course I'm sure you're right.

My views have been subjected to live vivisection many, many times in those of sorts terms often in the past. Its a great relief to know I can count on you to keep that sort of thing in check.

I look forward to substantive replies to the rest of that post.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2014 01:41

Johann, of course, you're a regular lightning rod for personal attacks yourself. But it demonstrably doesn't preclude you from committing the same offense.

The contents of the rest of your post doesn't mitigate the fact that you trolled, and then proceeded to dissemble about it by suggesting you weren't referring to this forum, when your post itself explicitly refers to this thread.

Since you - like quite a few others - never report posts where people attack you, and depend on our active moderation to do so, that's exactly what I did - asked you not to wind them up, since that's a much more low maintenance moderation exercise. I hope you understand.

As to the actual happenings in Ukraine, I'm fascinated by the amount of indignant hand waving on both sides, who would both like everyone to believe that they're the benchmark of freedom and self-determination, while the other party is the devil incarnate. It's a fascinating kabuki dance, where the west and Russia are clearly two sides of the same coin... like Austin Powers and Dr.Evil.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 30 Apr 2014 02:18

Suraj, I do understand and I certainly don't want to make your job harder - if you notice my post for the most part avoided a normative discussion on the rights and wrongs of the situation, which is difficult in general and pointless given the current atmosphere on the thread, and focused instead on where the situation may be heading.

But I was talking about precisely that sort of emotion and hand waving not just out there, but on the thread.

There's no question I was being mildly sarcastic, but its the obvious levels of intensity that genuinely confuse me because I don't see a precedent in forum history.

The ratio of emotion and commitment to the cause vs. discussion of national interests has been very unusual. It really has reminded me of the past. In those days there were a cadre of activists who had a loathing of the West, a sense of excitement about Soviet and Chinese strength, and contempt for their own third country's leadership. The result was a kind of uncritical and confused cheerleading.

I mean I have a stake in not seeing war in Europe. I have a stake in seeing the de-Sovietisation of Eastern Europe progress. I've been to Poland and Slovakia, and I've seen the remarkable changes in people's quality of live, both material and political. I don't particularly like the fact that Russia has no opposition parties to speak of, and don't think its model of government has a place in Europe. So my position, and the reasons for it are clear, and I've been happy to share it with those who jeer. I just would like to see the same sort of reflection and clarity from those who've been so worked up here. I didn't necessarily go about it the ideal way, but I do think it could improve the quality of this thread substantially.

Anyway, thats all I have to say on the subject.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 30 Apr 2014 02:36

....the EU has decided to sanction top Russian officials and their cronies.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/29/world/eur ... ne-crisis/

It's nice to see the euros stand up for what they believe in. so far this has been made out to be US led when in fact the euros were just as thick in the middle as anyone else.

It's too bad the Ukraines can't have trade agreements with whom they please. The US has multiple trade agreements. It's what we believe in....that is to say free trade is the basis of progress.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2014 02:47

Johann, let me provide a viewpoint from the 'the other side' so to speak. There's a substantial difference between just being a blind cheerleader of the socialist revolution, and being scathing about the general double standard of standing for liberty and self determination when and to the extent it suits you.

Sometime back you sought to make a distinction between how a western-orchestrated regime change filled with collateral damage is a somehow lesser offense, compared to the Russian act of utilizing geopolitical circumstances to retake strategic territory. This might sound completely meaningful to you, but from an Indian perspective - and this IS an Indian forum - that's laughable.

You might think our position is misguided and worth re-examining, but when so many people disagree with you, it's far more likely is that it's you who has a point of view that simply doesn't jell with the general Indian viewpoint, and it's really not upto us to re-examine it, but for you to do so. Your argument also betrays the general condescension the west offers to those who do not toe their line, e.g. 'excited cadre of activists' ? The west has excellent opinion forming mechanisms through the press. However, being more suave and persuasive is not the same thing as being right.

I appreciate your honesty in actually stating your anti-Russian position in the form of having an actual stake in de-Sovietization. That doesn't really oblige us to state that we're anti-west, nor is any such thing implied. The fact is, Russia is merely undoing the change in balance between the west/NATO and itself in the last 25 years. The west held the opinion that the balance of power would only be a one way change following 1991. It doesn't matter what sentimental atmospherics you apply around the actual actions themselves - understand that you're dealing with the world's largest country, with probably the most extensive nuclear arsenal combined with a historical tendency to be paranoid about its borders.

PS: the tone of excitement on this thread doesn't seem extraordinary at all. For genuine excitement, check out some of the threads in GDF.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Apr 2014 04:58

RT

Putin: Washington behind Ukraine events all along, though flying low
Published time: April 29, 2014

The US has been behind the Ukrainian crisis from the beginning, but was initially flying low, Russian President Vladimir Putin has said. He added that if sanctions continue, Russia will have to reconsider who has access to key sectors of its economy.

“I think what is happening now shows us who really was mastering the process from the beginning. But in the beginning, the United States preferred to remain in the shadow,” Putin said, as quoted by RIA Novosti.

Putin stated that since the US has taken a lead role in resolving the political crisis in Ukraine, it is “telling that they originally were behind this process, but now they just have emerged as leaders” of it.

The "Maidan cookies" policy paves the way to a broader crisis, Putin warned, referring to US officials showing up in central Kiev and encouraging protesters during demonstrations.

“It is necessary to understand that the situation is serious and try to find serious approaches to the solution,” he said.

Putin said that he has called on Kiev to start an all-Ukrainian dialogue, adding that other countries should not be blamed for the crisis.

“[They should] treat equally the rights of those living in other areas of Ukraine, first of all, I mean, the east and southeast, establish a dialogue, find a compromise," he told journalists while speaking about the measures necessary to put an end to the crisis. “Here's what you need to do; searching for the guilty outside Ukraine is wrong.”

Regarding the last row of sanctions imposed on Russia by the US and the EU, Vladimir Putin said he sees no need for counter sanctions.

"We would very much wish not to resort to any measures in response," he told reporters. "But if something like that continues, we will of course have to think about who is working in the key sectors of the Russian economy, including the energy sector, and how."

At the same time, the US and EU sanctions will not harm the Eurasian integration process, which is meant to lead to the creation of the Eurasian Economic Union, based on a Customs Union and common economic space among Russia, Kazakhstan, and Belarus, he said.

When thieves fall out! The Kiev chickens and the far Right neo-Nazis whom they used to oust Yanukovych ,have now started turning on each other.Just as is happening in Syria,Libya,Iraq,etc., and other US/Western sponsored "people's revolutions",actually orchestrated take-overs Yanqui style with catastrophic results .

Far-right rally turns into massive fight on Kiev’s Maidan, shots heard (PHOTOS)
Published time: April 29, 2014

A massive fight broke out on Kiev’s landmark Independence Square (Maidan) on Tuesday night, with shots and explosives being heard, according to Ukrainian media. There are reports of injuries.

Eye witnesses described over 100 people, reportedly members of the far-right Social-National Assembly, marching with burning torches towards Maidan – the epicenter of the massive uprising that removed former President Yanukovich from power. The marchers came to commemorate those killed during anti-government protests in December-February.

Maidan self-defense units blocked the rally at the barricades across from the main post office, prompting a massive fight.

The far-right radicals reportedly used firecrackers, traumatic guns, and tear gas. Many of them carried bats and sticks. There are reports of injuries, according to Ukrainian media.

Unknown ultra-nationalists activists march towards the Independence Square to commemorate "Maidan heroes" in Kiev on April 29, 2014. (AFP Photo / Sergey Supinsky)

One of the tents at Maidan caught fire, and the blazes were swiftly extinguished. Witnesses reported ambulances arriving at the scene.

Eventually, the self-defense units allowed the rally to pass through. The march then began to move towards Ukrainian Parliament, local television channels reported.

Pro-Kiev activists clash with unknown ulta-nationalists activists to stop their march through the Independence Square in Kiev on April 29, 2014. (AFP Photo / Sergey Supinsky)

Nationalist sentiment has been prevalent in Ukraine throughout the ongoing crisis. On Sunday, hundreds took part in a march in the western city of Lvov to mark the anniversary of the formation of the 'Galician' Ukrainian SS division, which fought for the Nazis against the Soviet Union during World War II.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Apr 2014 07:55

Putin: US was initially behind Ukraine events

MINSK, April 30 /ITAR-TASS/. The United States was initially behind the events in Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday.

“I think what is happening there now shows us who really managed the process from the start. But at first the United States preferred to stay in the background,” Putin told journalists when asked about his attitude toward America playing the lead in the situation around Ukraine.

He said the fact that now the United States is in the foreground in the resolution of the Ukrainian crisis shows that the US "led this process initially, but only displayed itself as the leader of this entire process now”.

Putin said that at first, the interests of the United States and its European partners coincided because the European Union “wanted to strike a well-known [association] agreement with Ukraine on terms that I believe were unprofitable for Ukraine”.

The previous Kiev government tried to fight it, but “the Western community followed another scenario, implementing the military scenario, an anti-constitutional coup, an armed seizure of power,” he said.

According to Putin, the events’ initiators did not calculate what they could lead to. The Russian president said that although many people in Ukraine “liked” such a coup, still “many [people] don’t like it, and they disagree with that form of power change”. He added that there is “nothing democratic” in that.

Putin not authorized response to the Western sanctions despite government proposials

Putin also said the Russian government proposed imposing sanctions against the United States and the European Union in response to their sanctions, but added that he has not authorized them yet.

“The government of the Russian Federation has already proposed some retaliatory steps. I think there’s not need,” the head of state told journalists.

However, he said, “if something like that continues, we will of course have to think about who and how works in the Russian Federation, in the key branches of Russia’s economy, including energy”.

“We would not like to resort to some steps, retaliatory measures, I hope there will be no need,” Putin said.

“People should be taken into account, their legal rights should be respected,” he said.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Apr 2014 09:07

A massive fight broke out on Kiev’s landmark Independence Square (Maidan) on Tuesday night, with shots and explosives being heard, according to Ukrainian media. There are reports of injuries.

Das Stolichnaya Effekt. Столична Ефект

Putin hints at sanctions involving energy development contracts but says "no need so far"

Interesting. I suppose that was intended for Siemens? Meanwhile, observe love-fest between France, Alstrom Inquorpeaureatede, GE and Siemens.

The key phrase from Le Ministeaure d'Industrie was

Presenting this as Fait Accompli would be very unwise

. The WSJ said the Allstom CEO was "ordered" to go directly from L'Aeropeaurte to Le Ministry for a "tense and direct" meeting with Le Ministeaure Himself.

Le Ministeaure is more left-wing than Putin, Mao, Lenin and Barbara Boxer combined.
So now what are the dynamics of Siemens interactions with US/EU/Russia? Given the above news, that Allstom said

to Le Gourvernmeunte de Paris and went with GE, snubbing Siemens, puts Siemens, Frau Merkel and France in one corner, GE and BO in another. Is Merkel going to allow DupleeCity and Veronica F*ckEU to dictate who Siemens should do bijnej with??? At the cost of $$$B in trade with Russia? Or will Siemens continue along course already set, and say

to BO - and risk more sanctions in US (which will please GE immensely..)

Turning out better than "General Hospital" and "Hu Shot JR?" for suspense.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Apr 2014 09:35

Truly,this is the best entertainment on the tube,the ultimate reality show,but means suffering for the poor ordinary Ukranians whether they are pro or anti Russia.They have my deepest sympathies.

The "Middle Game" is approaching its inevitable end,with the eastern parts of the Ukraine slipping out of the Kiev Chicken's grasp.With the latest farce in the maidan,the Right Sector roosters are indeed returning to the coop to screw the chickens!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... st-ukraine
Kiev government powerless as east Ukraine slips out of its control
Pro-Russian crowd storms regional HQ in Luhansk while Donetsk looks likely to declare autonomy after May vote

Luke Harding in Donetsk
theguardian.com, Wednesday 30 April 2014
Link to video: Donetsk in east Ukraine rocked by violent clashes

Ukraine's beleaguered government appeared to have lost control of law and order in the east of the country on Tuesday, after police again failed to stop a pro-Russian crowd from seizing a key administrative building.

Some 3,000 activists – some in masks and military fatigues – stormed the regional government HQ in the eastern city of Luhansk. Police supposed to guard the building let the crowd inside. A pro-Russian militia had occupied the security service office in Luhansk, a town of 465,000, just 20 miles (32km) from the Russian border.

The unwillingness of security structures to defend public buildings from separatist occupation has been a theme in eastern Ukraine since early April. Supporters of the "Donetsk People's Republic" have taken over a string of city halls and police stations. An armed unit from Crimea – led by an alleged Russian colonel – has also established a de facto military capital in the town of Slavyansk.

But in recent days Kiev's tentative grip on local law enforcement in the east appears to have slipped completely. In Luhansk riot police stood passively in a courtyard, kettled in by separatists armed with bats and hammers. "The regional leadership does not control its police force," Stanislav Rechynsky, an aide to the interior minister in Kiev, told Reuters. "The local police did nothing."

In a statement on Tuesday, Ukraine's interim president, Oleksandr Turchynov, said: "The vast majority of law enforcement officials in the east are not able to fulfil their obligation to protect our citizens."

On Monday in Donetsk another contingent of riot police in full battle gear looked on as pro-Russian thugs attacked a peaceful pro-unity rally. The separatists beat Ukraine supporters with iron rods. Fourteen people needed hospital treatment. Two were seriously injured. The mob also took five hostages, supporters of the city's Shakhtar Donetsk football team who had formed a protective cordon at the front of the rally. The five were taken to an office near Donetsk's occupied regional administration. They were eventually released on Tuesday.

Later on Tuesday, seven or eight police officers in light blue uniforms stood outside the office where the hostages had been kept. The scene was peaceful. A few feet away volunteers from the "Donetsk People's Republic", dressed in military fatigues, guarded the entrance. They wore orange and black ribbons, the symbols of the "republic's" anti-Kiev revolution. The two groups appeared to be on friendly terms.

Asked if the police had gone over to the separatists, the captain in charge, Yevgeny, said: "Among the police there are different opinions. Obviously our job is to uphold the law and apply it neutrally."

The "republic" has announced its own referendum on the region's future, to be held on 11 May. "I don't make any secret of the fact that I'm for a referendum," Yevgeny added. Another policeman chipped in: "We'll take part. Personally I'm for Russia".

The police were reluctant to talk about the bloody events of the previous night, when they failed to protect civilians from attack. But one officer who was there said: "This situation is all Kiev's fault. They say we in the east are slaves, half-humans. They revere people like Stepan Bandera [the second world war Ukrainian nationalist leader] who shot our brothers. We are normal citizens like everyone else."

Standing next to their patrol car, still striped with Ukraine's blue and yellow colours, the officers reeled off a list of grievances. These included low pay – $200-$250 (£120) a month. (One policewoman, Svetlana, said: "I'm supposed to give my life for this. Who is going to come to my mother afterwards and say "thanks for your daughter?") They also complained that a mistrustful Kiev had confiscated their service revolvers three weeks ago. "I can't exactly defend myself," Yevgeny said, showing off his empty holster.

The captain said he was one of 400 Donetsk region police officers sent to the capital to deal with anti-Yanukovych demonstrations, which began last November. The experience had left him bitterly disillusioned. He had nothing but contempt for the new government, part-formed from the protest movement, he said. Other officers who had not been in Kiev repeated claims made by Russian TV that the Maidan protesters were paid narco-maniacs, and unemployed "fascists".

The police even had sympathy for pro-Russian gunmen in Slavyansk, who are holding 40 people prisoner, including seven European military observers. One officer said: "Kiev started all this by arresting our activists. They [in Slavyansk] are merely defending their rights."

The US embassy in Kiev said on Tuesday the abduction of the OSCE inspectors and the attack on demonstrators by pro-Russian thugs in Donetsk on Monday were acts of terrorism.

"There is no place for these examples of inhuman behaviour in a modern, democratic society. This is terrorism, pure and simple," it said in a statement.

On Tuesday the EU followed the US in widening sanctions, naming a further 15 people it is targeting because of their roles in the Ukraine crisis. The list included General Valery Gerasimov, chief of the Russian general staff and first deputy defence minister, and Lieutenant General Igor Sergun, identified as the head of GRU, the Russian military intelligence agency.

The Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, dismissed the new sanctions. "We reject the sanctions … imposed by the United States and the European Union against all common sense, in relation to the events in Ukraine."

Russian president Vladimir Putin said Moscow saw no need for counter sanctions against the west, but could reconsider the participation of western companies in its economy, including energy projects.

"We would very much wish not to resort to any measures in response. I hope we won't get to that point," he told reporters after meeting the leaders of Belarus and Kazakhstan. "But if something like that continues, we will of course have to think about who is working in the key sectors of the Russian economy, including the energy sector, and how."

THe US secretary of state John Kerry accused Moscow of accelerating the crisis in Ukraine instead of sticking to an agreement to ratchet back tensions, and said Nato partners should step up efforts to lessen Europe's energy dependence on Russian oil.

Speaking at the Atlantic Council think-tank, Kerry said Nato is facing a defining moment in the strength of its alliance. He pledged anew that Nato partners including those that border Ukraine or Russia would be defended to the hilt if their sovereignty is threatened. "Nato territory is inviolable," Kerry said in his 20-minute speech. "We will defend every single piece of it."

One pro-Russian activist, 39-year-old Igor Vasilyovich, said at least half of the local police supported the cause. "They understand that without Russia we can't live properly," he said. Igor admitted that not everybody in Donetsk – population one million – was an enthusiast for the new unelected "republic". "We're the active minority. We'll lead the passive majority," he said. But what if the "republic" didn't succeed? "Then we'll start a partisan war," he replied.

Serhiy Taruta, the new governor sent by Kiev to head the Donetsk region, admits that the police and security services in the east are not doing their job. His officials attribute this to what they call "post-Maidan syndrome".

Many were sent to the capital, and were told that the protesters in Kiev were their enemies. Now back in the east, the same enemies are running the country. They are also unsure whether Viktor Yanukovych – the president who fled to Russia – might come back again.

One official said: "They [the police in the east] feel a mental fight over who is their master. The problem is they are not sure if it is Kiev, or Yanukovych and his family. We've had a lot of conversations with commanders and officers. They are people from here, and they feel angry and afraid."

The official said the Donetsk police were acutely aware that the Russian police salary was $2,000 – 10 times higher than their own. They also regarded the Berkut riot police – disbanded for their alleged role in the shooing of Maidan protesters – as local heroes. The Donetsk police chief Konstantin Pozhidaev was doing all he could, the official said, conceding: "It will take more time to achieve meaningful order."

With a separatist referendum looming, Donetsk's pro-Kiev administrators have little time left. Much of the region is unlikely to vote in this "poll", but that will probably not deter the "People's Republic" from declaring an overwhelming victory. One self-appointed "deputy", Anatoly Aneshenko, said on Tuesday the oblast or region was certain to declare autonomy.

What would happen to those who opposed this outcome? "Well, they can leave," he said.

Latest US O'Bomber,aka O'Bumbler" doctrine. Poor Kiev "chickens" who might soon be running around headless!
US foreign policy: President defends his 'Obama doctrine' where military intervention is a last resort
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 03424.html
Xcpt:

Was it less than five years ago that Barack Obama accepted the Nobel Peace Prize, thrust upon him by a Scandinavian committee convinced, like so many others, that this cool and articulate new American president - so different from his cowboy predecessor - would make world a better, more peaceful place?

Scan the headlines this spring of 2014, and that hope would seem to lie in ruins. And this week that same American president, older, wiser and indisputably greyer, was goaded into delivering, from the distant shores of the Philippines, a ringing inpromptu defence of a US foreign policy where everything, virtually simultaneously, seems to be going wrong.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 30 Apr 2014 10:53

Not exactly relevant to this thread. But its a beautiful write up on Obama. For all his faults, lets look at history and the stuff he is doing as a black President. I too have a lot of gripe about him... however, all things considered, he is doing a fair job... and sometimes, as George Friedman [of stratfor fame says... I think I liked that article yday in this thread], a few things will have to be done because its expected of people. regardless of whether they like it or not. Difficulties of being in the post. Status quo bias etc.

Now, off to the article... a very long one. TL;DR:

On and off the road with Obama (through New Yorker)

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 30 Apr 2014 13:27

Suraj wrote:Johann, let me provide a viewpoint from the 'the other side' so to speak. There's a substantial difference between just being a blind cheerleader of the socialist revolution, and being scathing about the general double standard of standing for liberty and self determination when and to the extent it suits you.

Sometime back you sought to make a distinction between how a western-orchestrated regime change filled with collateral damage is a somehow lesser offense, compared to the Russian act of utilizing geopolitical circumstances to retake strategic territory. This might sound completely meaningful to you, but from an Indian perspective - and this IS an Indian forum - that's laughable.

You might think our position is misguided and worth re-examining, but when so many people disagree with you, it's far more likely is that it's you who has a point of view that simply doesn't jell with the general Indian viewpoint, and it's really not upto us to re-examine it, but for you to do so. Your argument also betrays the general condescension the west offers to those who do not toe their line, e.g. 'excited cadre of activists' ? The west has excellent opinion forming mechanisms through the press. However, being more suave and persuasive is not the same thing as being right.

...That doesn't really oblige us to state that we're anti-west, nor is any such thing implied.

...PS: the tone of excitement on this thread doesn't seem extraordinary at all. For genuine excitement, check out some of the threads in GDF.

Actually Suraj, I simply don't share the idea that there is a single 'us' and 'them' POV that neatly conforms to national lines when it comes to the discussion on this thread, let alone India at large. There's been two very different lines of commentary here from Indian members.

You've described your position, which is perfectly reasonable. Be skeptical by all means as a third party, especially one that feels hard done in the past by dominant power structures. My sarcasm was not aimed at you or that kind of thing. Although I will disagree with the idea that this represents a consensus Indian position on the question of territorial conquest - India at its most strategically bold in 1971 intervened without taking territory in the settlement. Same with Sri Lanka in 1987. In Kargil, as well as 1962 and 1965 the objective was not permanently seizing territory. Goa and Siachen certainly happened, but it seems like exceptions rather than the rule.

I was talking about three or four people who seem to be consistently passionate about defending a very particular official Kremlin narrative down to its finest details. Lots of bolding and exclamation marks, lots of righteous anger not just against Western government and media, but anyone who disagrees with the Kremlin, and fervent wishes for Kremlin success.

That's what I find confusing and unprecedented - the extent of third party identification - a debate between RT and everyone else in other words. GDF passions OTOH are about different contesting Indian view points.

I appreciate your honesty in actually stating your anti-Russian position in the form of having an actual stake in de-Sovietization...The fact is, Russia is merely undoing the change in balance between the west/NATO and itself in the last 25 years. The west held the opinion that the balance of power would only be a one way change following 1991. It doesn't matter what sentimental atmospherics you apply around the actual actions themselves - understand that you're dealing with the world's largest country, with probably the most extensive nuclear arsenal combined with a historical tendency to be paranoid about its borders.

My position is very much against the current approach but I'm hardly anti-Russian. I think Russia and Europe desperately need one another in the long term in every sense, but that partnership can't happen as long as Russia retains a political system that is still half-Soviet in its instincts. Even before WWI, Russia was the last absolute monarchy in Europe, and then the first absolute 1-party state. Ever since the Duchy of Muscovy started socialising (between skirmishes) with the Mongols and adopted many of their ways of ruling and fighting there's been this persistent streak in the political culture that rubs up against the Russian desire for integration with Europe. The instinct is for the paranoid strong hand, the ruler for life that rules through awe backed up by fear. Its the same problem in Turkey and Iran, but those countries don't share remotely as much with Europe.

There is this real belief among the hard men that Russia can't have a liberal political system and still be great and powerful. They are convinced that it would mean fragmentation and chaos. Its utter nonsense that dictators everywhere believe, but that's the real ideological struggle here. Ever since Peter the Great Russian ruling classes have been keen to modernise and Europeanise in every way other than politically, which is far more meaningful than much more superficial things (there was a time when the Russian ruling class spoke better French than Russian). Over time Russia has inched closer and closer between wild swings. The process continues.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 30 Apr 2014 13:42

Johann wrote:Its so nice to see how excited some people on this thread are for the Kremlin, and how they wildly they cheer them on. It really is just like the old days.

Johann wrote:
I was talking about three or four people who seem to be consistently passionate about defending a very particular official Kremlin narrative down to its finest details. Lots of bolding and exclamation marks, lots of righteous anger not just against Western government and media, but anyone who disagrees with the Kremlin, and fervent wishes for Kremlin success.

That's what I find confusing and unprecedented - the extent of third party identification.

But I was talking about precisely that sort of emotion and hand waving not just out there, but on the thread.

There's no question I was being mildly sarcastic, but its the obvious levels of intensity that genuinely confuse me because I don't see a precedent in forum history.

The ratio of emotion and commitment to the cause vs. discussion of national interests has been very unusual. It really has reminded me of the past. In those days there were a cadre of activists who had a loathing of the West, a sense of excitement about Soviet and Chinese strength, and contempt for their own third country's leadership. The result was a kind of uncritical and confused cheerleading.

Actually Suraj, I simply don't share the idea that there is a single 'us' and 'them' POV that neatly conforms to national lines when it comes to the discussion on this thread, let alone India at large. There's been two very different lines of commentary here from Indian members.

What consistency,what impartial observations.

If this is the reaction to reaction in an Indian forum about an issue which at best is inconsequential to Indian interests,what can one say about neutrality and pontifications about pakistan?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Apr 2014 13:56

CNN-IBN News ‏@ibnlive 32m

Ukraine separatists seize second provincial capital, fire on police http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ukraine-sepa ... 589-2.html … #ukraine

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 30 Apr 2014 15:07

Its so nice to see how excited some people on this thread are for the Kremlin, and how they wildly they cheer them on. It really is just like the old days.

Perhaps a neutral audience is cheering only the underdog and opposing the false narrative being pushed by the Bully !

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 30 Apr 2014 15:20

Even today I am surprised at the brainwashing which has been on the western minds by their elite.

At the PEAK of the cold war, what the hell did the soviets do that the americans werent doing at the same time and it was actually the american who were killing more people every single day all around the world than the russians were.

Oh the soviets had a stupid economic policy. But that doesnt tell us about the social engineering performed on the common western for each of them to have such a visceral hatred. Even now, what did Iran do that common western has such a visceral hatred that a Pakistan or a Soudi Arabia did not do? Pakistan and iran both destroyed US embassies, atleast iran was in the midst of a revolution and there was no central control. Pakistan destroyed US embassy while an absolute dictator was in place and then after two years, ofcourse that dictator became the best friend to US.

This social engineered brainwashed western doesnt even question why ukranians occupying a govt building in january against a democratically elected govt is good but is bad when a coup clique is power.

That article in russia today about "I am confused" should be made compulsory reading for all the western to come out of this brainwashing and to look at events logically instead of blindly following the nyt/cnn propaganda.

is it that the elite think that without a common enemy, the US and western europe will split?

PS: those posts by Johann was simply a round about "polished" way of saying, "i cant find holes in the message logic or facts, so I hit the messenger".

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 30 Apr 2014 15:25

It's too bad the Ukraines can't have trade agreements with whom they please. The US has multiple trade agreements. It's what we believe in....that is to say free trade is the basis of progress.

Ukraine can have free trade with whoever they want but then they cant have free gas as well. The west was not willing to give Ukraine the money to pay for gas with as few strings attached as Russia(low gas price included) and that is why Yanukovich refused to sign the dotted lines. Now IMF is ready to give much more with much less strings to a zero democracy government.
Russia has proposed and is building a free trade zone of itself. Ukraine is free to join whichever block it wants. Russian block will of course defend its economic interests. I am sure you in US do the same. Arent economic sanctions a way of defending economic interests. Wait they are a means to achieve a political end.

Free trade is so nice and good and progressive. Is it not? But free movement of labour should be part of such agreements too. Thats where the real `liberal` values and greatness of west comes into question. We want trade but we dont want your people!

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 30 Apr 2014 15:44

West doesnt want to give money to Ukraine. And Putin knows this well. He can wait till winter.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-23511754

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 30 Apr 2014 15:59

Although I will disagree with the idea that this represents a consensus Indian position on the question of territorial conquest - India at its most strategically bold in 1971 intervened without taking territory in the settlement. Same with Sri Lanka in 1987. In Kargil, as well as 1962 and 1965 the objective was not permanently seizing territory. Goa and Siachen certainly happened, but it seems like exceptions rather than the rule.

Sir, what stopped western countries to intervene in 1971 and stop genocide? In fact it is Indians who brought democracy to Goa, while barbarian invaders were busy with Inquisitions, banning marriages of Hindus, attacking Indian army at the time of liberation of Goa from barbarians - but no elections sir!

The official position of western countries was well demonstrated at the time of genocide in Bengal which is
(1) diplomatic offensive against India in the United Nations when it was the Indian army who stopped genocide.
(2) Strutting out 7th fleet in the Bay of Bengal to threaten Indian forces while it was pakis genociding Bangladeshi Hindus and still ongoing, as also AFTER Indian forces intervened.
(3) consistently ignoring genocide and even advising Indian PM to let the genocide continue!

Western countries have no basis to talk about Siachen or Goa considering barbaric colonial times and supporting genocide of Bangladeshis. Not to mention Siachen is part of India to begin with.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Apr 2014 16:19

RSoami wrote: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-23511754

Seriously where do they get this idea of witchhunting individuals of previous government ......Ukraine was looted by all government since its independence and the next government or the present coup led one is no different.

This looks more like a case of getting even with previous regime in connivance with the present western backed one.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Apr 2014 17:02

The Guardian ‏@guardian 3m

Ukraine forces 'helpless' to stop pro-Russia takeover in east http://gu.com/p/3zzej/tw @guardianworld

TIME.com ‏@TIME 9m

Ukrainian policemen stand by as pro-Russian separatists seize control http://ti.me/1nF1VaD

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Apr 2014 18:16

Johann wrote:My position is very much against the current approach but I'm hardly anti-Russian. I think Russia and Europe desperately need one another in the long term in every sense, but that partnership can't happen as long as Russia retains a political system that is still half-Soviet in its instincts. Even before WWI, Russia was the last absolute monarchy in Europe, and then the first absolute 1-party state. Ever since the Duchy of Muscovy started socialising (between skirmishes) with the Mongols and adopted many of their ways of ruling and fighting there's been this persistent streak in the political culture that rubs up against the Russian desire for integration with Europe. The instinct is for the paranoid strong hand, the ruler for life that rules through awe backed up by fear. Its the same problem in Turkey and Iran, but those countries don't share remotely as much with Europe.

There is this real belief among the hard men that Russia can't have a liberal political system and still be great and powerful. They are convinced that it would mean fragmentation and chaos. Its utter nonsense that dictators everywhere believe, but that's the real ideological struggle here. Ever since Peter the Great Russian ruling classes have been keen to modernise and Europeanise in every way other than politically, which is far more meaningful than much more superficial things (there was a time when the Russian ruling class spoke better French than Russian). Over time Russia has inched closer and closer between wild swings. The process continues.

Johann,

You are right in this but note that even you realize that Russia is westernized and a modern liberal state in all but political systems. This was the situation in much of EU till recently BTW. Just 70 years ago German jack boots were marching across Europe and and a few years before that the Kings and Queens of Britain, France, Spain, etc exercised iron political control of a liberalized society. So why the instinctive hatred for Russia or the Russian system. There is little of that hatred for the Chinese system for instance, which has swallowed up more lands, been more irrational and long term is much more problem creating than Russia.

My own suspicion is that the west too is instinctively reverting to the cold war narrative being peddled by discredited cold warriors, without realizing how much Russia has changed and how much more of a liberal democracy it is today.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 30 Apr 2014 18:36

Looking at it from a different angle,

Does the west want the eastern ukraine out of ukraine? Eastern ukraine is industrialised. If those areas are removed and the western areas integrated into the EU, the EU countries get a market without competetion.

Are we seeing colonialism 2.0 and not able to recognise it?

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 30 Apr 2014 18:40

>>Are we seeing colonialism 2.0 and not able to recognise it?

agree with this.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 30 Apr 2014 18:48

Deleted

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 30 Apr 2014 20:56

Johann wrote:I think Russia and Europe desperately need one another in the long term in every sense, but that partnership can't happen as long as Russia retains a political system that is still half-Soviet in its instincts.

I happen to disagree with this characterization. That is classic Cold Warrior language. In reality, Russia is maintaining a posture that follows the template of the era of Peter the Great. They have always sought a pliant buffer between them and Europe proper.

Historically, Russia has been repeatedly taken on by Europe, whether it's by Napoleon, the British in Crimea or the Nazis. They've always been paranoid about that, and with NATO ignoring their 90s era assurances not to expand, still are. Question - would the west ever put the topic of a rollback of the NATO on the table ? I think not. Yet, it expects Russia not to revert to Soviet era borders. Why ?

I believe that in an age where Europe finally tired of starting wars over territory, it is extremely uncomfortable with the fact that Russia, despite the post-Soviet collapse, remains a cohesive and increasingly potent state. This is further aggravated by Europe's inability to unite in any meaningful manner, EU or not.

Historically, Europe, and not Russia, has been the cause of the most ruinous wars man has seen. The change of control over territory has been a constant of history. But Europe itself has too much historical baggage, combined with technological leadership in the modern era, to not to overreact.

I find it curious that you have no problem collectively addressing several people as an 'excitable cadre' (even more Cold War language), but take issue with one of us suggesting our position is largely a collective one. It's an interesting British divide and rule approach, but not really a valid one. As to those repeatedly using rhetoric supporting Moscow to respond to you, I fail to see the problem with that. Perhaps you don't realize it yourself, but your positions often betray a conditioned view of circumstances that either ignore reality outright, or assign them some arbitrary value judgement. To be fair, we all do that, and it takes someone else to make us aware of it.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 30 Apr 2014 22:28

Austin posted, page 43:

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier talks to SPIEGEL about military escalation with Russia, which he describes as the "worst crisis since the end of the Cold War," Vladimir Putin's long-term goals and how NATO is adapting to a difficult new reality.

Interview: Foreign Minister Steinmeier: 'Russia is Playing a Dangerous Game'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 66493.html

Steinmeier: I don't have a crystal ball, unfortunately. But I caution against looking for winners and losers in the middle of the crisis based on concepts from the 19th and early 20th century. Spheres of influence, geopolitical regions, hegemony, aspirations to dominance … those aren't part of our foreign policy -- though we would also be well advised to take into account other people thinking along those lines. Whoever thinks war allows for lasting victories these days should take a look at European history books and learn their lesson.

Man! Such nobilty of thought! They no longer think in terms of "Spheres of influence, geopolitical regions, hegemony, aspirations to dominance"!

Just WOW!! Such crap!

Ever since European countries started colonizing the America's, Africa and Asia, it's all been about spheres of influence, geopolitical regions, hegemony, dominance and the unrestricted access to the natural resources/markets of those regions.

This did not stop with decolonization. This is why I wrote earlier, that the EU/US view Russia both as a threat and a juicy prey.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 30 Apr 2014 23:58

If Herr Foreign Minister is so sure of all that he says then first step towards such assurances is disband NATO as Warsaw pact doesn't exist anymore and Communist China is such a darling Fraulein of the west no?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 May 2014 01:18

Why The War Party Is Playing With Fire: Much Of Putin's Military-Industrial Complex Is In Eastern Ukraine!

It is well known that much of the Ukraine's heavy industry is concentrated in the eastern regions of the country ......it turns out that there is something else that makes the Ukraine's East especially important.... when the Ukraine split from the Soviet Union, it took a big chunk of its defense industry with it....

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 01 May 2014 01:41

Theo_Fidel wrote:There is little of that hatred for the Chinese system for instance, which has swallowed up more lands, been more irrational and long term is much more problem creating than Russia.

The reaction to a Chinese move that the Russians pulled off would be a lot more harsh and paranoid. There's an arms embargo against China that's not quite against Russia. I think you're buying too much into the forum's west's still on about the cold war line.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 May 2014 01:43

in the morning Pacific Coast time, some IMFwala was predicting gloomy economic forecast for Russia with economic growth rate to be 0.2 % from 1.2% expected due to US sanctions!

In same radio station another expert said US economic growth in First quarter is at 0.1% fom expected 1.1% due to severe weather.
IOW US economy was sanctioned by the weather.
The irony is lost on the radio hosts.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 May 2014 04:23

Turch,turch,turch......Going,.going ,gone! Just like the Crimea,the east has been lost-but was it ever "won" or part of the Ukraine at all?!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -president
Ukraine's government has lost control of east, says acting president
Oleksandr Turchynov says security forces are unable to control situation in Donetsk and Luhansk regions

Luke Harding in Luhansk
theguardian.com, Wednesday 30 April 2014
Pro-Russia gunmen in an administration building in Luhansk, eastern Ukraine. Photograph: Alexander Zemlianichenko/AP

Ukraine's acting president has admitted his government has practically lost control of the east of the country, with his security forces "helpless" to stop a rolling takeover by pro-Russia gunmen.

Oleksandr Turchynov said numerous Ukrainian military and security personnel had defected to the rebels, taking their arms with them. Using the language of defeat, he told a meeting of regional governors: "I will be frank. Today, security forces are unable to take the situation in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions quickly under control."

His comments came after anti-Kiev militants seized a string of official buildings in the eastern city of Luhansk on Tuesday. Only the city's police station remained under nominal central command.

Standing outside Luhansk's police headquarters on Wednesday, Tatiana Pogukay was close to tears. "We are still here. We didn't surrender. But Kiev betrayed us," she said. Her emotion was understandable. The previous night she and her colleagues had fended off an armed attack by 50 pro-Russia separatists. The gunmen in fatigues attempted to storm the building. One fired warning shots in the air; some scaled the roof; others rammed the rear entrance with a Kamaz truck.

The officers inside managed to stand their ground. They tossed smoke and stun grenades at their assailants from upper-floor windows. A frightened group of conscripts was allowed to leave. Eventually the separatists called it a night – with the police still in control of their four-storey regional HQ, at least for now. "We didn't give up our weapons. We defended this place with honour," Pogukay, a police colonel, said.

Luhansk woman A woman gives food to an armed man in front of the occupied regional administration building in Luhansk. Photograph: Zurab Kurtsikidze/EPA

Despite some heroic resistance, the reality is this: most of east Ukraine is now a separatist fiefdom. The balance of power is tipping. It is moving inexorably away from the beleaguered government in Kiev, and towards militants supported by Moscow who are on the brink of declaring their own autonomous state.

With its Khrushchev-era apartment blocks and neo-classical Stalinist buildings, Luhansk – population 445,000 – already looks like Russia. The Russian border is 20 miles (35km) away. In a matter of weeks Luhansk will either be Russia, or a political entity allied with it.

On Wednesday the city's volunteer-soldiers were taking it easy after a remarkable 24 hours in which they seized municipal power. In early April a militia led by Soviet Afghan war veterans occupied Luhansk's security service agency HQ, in the centre of town. They helped themselves to its formidable arsenal: shiny new Kalashnikovs, pistols, grenades, and rocket launchers. Last week a new Moscow-approved "people's governor", Valery Bolotov, appeared. Bolotov sent Kiev a list of "demands". He set a deadline, which expired on Monday.

After failing to get a reply, the rebels carried out an effortless coup a day later. First, a 3,000-strong crowd encircled Luhansk's regional administration building, which overlooks a pleasant park and a statue of the moustached poet Taras Shevchenko. A couple of youths in masks smashed in the windows with crowbars; then the masses poured in. Riot police trapped in a courtyard did nothing. Miserable and humiliated, they eventually left.

On Wednesday masked armed volunteers were standing guard outside their new HQ; sandbags had been piled up before ground-floor windows; a nascent tyre-wall was taking shape on the pavement. One militiaman, Alexander, was happy to chat. He said despite the change in management it was business as usual, with council staff working as before. "Our job is to check IDs," he said. A wellwisher gave him a carton of Bond Street cigarettes. Nearby, a group of women were discussing the dramatic events of the previous day.

One old lady in a headscarf seemed confused by this rapid transfer of control. She asked Alexander if he had come from the Maidan, Kiev's pro-western protest movement?

"We're against fascism," Alexander answered.

She remained confused. Another woman intervened helpfully and said: "Don't worry, dear. Everything will be like in the Soviet Union again. We will have our Victory Day on 9 May. It will all be OK."

The old woman's face brightened. She grasped Alexander by the hand, and before walking down the street told him: "History will remember you."

Alexander, his face hidden by a balaclava, declined to give his surname. But he said he was a 39-year-old miner with a family. A "referendum" on Luhansk's future status would take place on 11 May, he explained. After that, he said, the region would probably join Russia, though he wasn't certain. Why had he joined "Luhansk's people's militia"? "There's been a fascist takeover in Kiev," he replied. He added: "Victory Day is sacred for us. I've heard the Kiev government wants to replace it with a gay pride parade."

The insurgents now occupy practically all of Luhansk's official buildings. Armed men on Wednesday patrolled outside Luhansk's city hall, also taken on Tuesday; one had a Kalashnikov with its grip decorated in Russian red, white and blue. Others peered out from inside the procurator's office down the road; they emerged to sweep away broken glass from their break-in the night before. A new Russian tricolour flew above the regional appellate court. The militia also dropped into the TV station for a chat.

In other parts of the east it was the same story. In the town of Gorlovka, 20 miles from the regional capital of Donetsk, militants hijacked the city hall early on Wednesday, as well as a second police station. In Donetsk others grabbed the tax and customs office. Each occupation follows the same revolutionary template: gunmen, who do the heavy lifting; takeover; tyre barricades; call for a referendum. Ukraine still has tanks and troops in pockets in the east. But the reality is that Kiev's authority has vanished, probably forever.

Instead of trying to wrest back control of Luhansk and Donetsk, Turchynov said on Wednesday his forces would concentrate on defending the provinces of Kharkiv, in the east, and Odessa, in the west. This will be difficult. The Kremlin's plan appears to be to resurrect the historic region of "New Russia", a large Russophone chunk of southern and eastern Ukraine.

At Luhansk's police station, meanwhile, Pogukay said she was incensed with Turchynov after he called the east's law enforcement officers "traitors". "First Viktor Yanukovych [Ukraine's ex-president] betrayed us. Now Turchynov betrayed us," she said, her voice shaking with feeling. "This is on his conscience." On Tuesday, just before the militia tried to seize the station, the regional police chief, Vladimir Guslavsky, faxed his resignation to Kiev, she said. He didn't get a reply. "He's a man of honour. He's staying in his post until they send a replacement," she said.

During the raid the insurgents managed to claw off half of a Ukrainian trident sign on the station's front wall. They also raised a Russian flag on a low overhanging roof; someone took it down again later. In anticipation of further attack, the police had sandbagged the entrance and ground-floor windows. Pot plants were visible in several upper windows; the lights were on. Ukraine's deputy interior minister had phoned up to offer his support, Pogukay said. But no one else from Kiev had bothered to pick up the phone. Surely the situation was now hopeless for the police? "We're not traitors like Turchynov said," she replied. "We'll fight to our last breath."

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 May 2014 06:40

KrishnaK wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:There is little of that hatred for the Chinese system for instance, which has swallowed up more lands, been more irrational and long term is much more problem creating than Russia.
The reaction to a Chinese move that the Russians pulled off would be a lot more harsh and paranoid. There's an arms embargo against China that's not quite against Russia. I think you're buying too much into the forum's west's still on about the cold war line.

Didn't China recently unilaterally annex a piece of ocean and islands larger than western Europe? Forcibly occupied the spratlys and shot at random passersby. There has been zero consequences. In fact some have been quietly urging China to 'occupy' NoKo no questions asked.

This distaste for Russia is quite odd one must say. Russia gone more than half way in reforming it self for interaction with the west and yet the cold war prism continues going strong. There is almost no difference between Russia and the EU now and yet the temptation to slip into old roles remains.

China gets a pass....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 May 2014 11:21

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 07710.html
Ukraine crisis: Amidst masked men and paramilitary violence, Ukraine is a country on the jagged edge of anarchy

The men, most with their faces hidden by balaclavas, many carrying baseball bats, some wearing sidearms, swarmed around the black Jeep Patriot. They dragged out the four occupants - in black combat uniforms - snatching their guns, magazines of ammunition, and radio transmitters from their olive rucksacks. Body armour was stripped from the captives, who were forced to kneel on the pavement. The number plates of the car were torn off and it was driven away with screeching tyres.

No one was quite sure just what had taken place at Artema Street in the centre of Donetsk on Tuesday morning. The SUV had been parked outside a branch of the UkrBusinessBank. The staff thought the occupants may have been a "maskashow", armed masked gunmen sent by commercial rivals to disrupt trading, not an infrequent occurrence in the commerce of this wild east.

It emerged that the bank is owned by the dentist son of Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine’s overthrown president. Serhiy Oksenuik, the deputy chairman, insisted he had no idea what the armed men were after, or if it had anything to do with the financial affairs of Oleksandr Yanukovych, who is reputed to have personal assets of $500 million.

Members of the "self-defence force" arrived; they were unaware, they professed, of the identity of those who had made off with the weapons and the vehicle. “It’s a mystery,” said Aleksandr. He was a berkut, the riot police disbanded by the Kiev administration after a hundred protesters were shot dead in the Maidan, now one of the mainstays of the militia of the People’s Republic of Donetsk.

Six members of the city’s police force watched what had been happening from across the road. They eventually came over and took away the men in black, one of whom told me that they were a special forces unit from the Ministry of Interior.

“We have not been arrested, we have not been detained, as far as I can tell.” They were from Zaporoshiya, 250 miles away, on an operation, he ventured. Was it to do with Yanukovych? “I can’t say anything.”

A pro-Russian protester inside a Donetsk government building (Reuters) A pro-Russian protester inside a Donetsk government building (Reuters)
The police said later they were unaware of an authorized raid involving the former president’s family. Meanwhile, four Kalashnikovs, four pistols and two combat shotguns had disappeared to be added to the already bulging illicit arsenal in the streets. “It’s a problem,” acknowledged Aleksandr.

Eastern Ukraine is on the jagged edge of anarchy. Not all the violence has been planned and executed by the separatists, there have been killings, often by men in black appearing out of black four-wheel drives, according to witnesses. The separatist leadership has repeatedly accused the Right Sector, an extreme nationalist group, of carrying out the attacks on behalf of the Kiev administration. The Ministry of Interior's special units also wear similar combat kits, and the Interior Minister Arsen Avakov has been a fervent advocate of the "anti-terrorist mission" – although many of his accounts of what had been taking place, on his Facebook page, had been widely off the mark.

However, personal and commercial scores are also being settled – and there are plenty of people who would want to do so with the Yanukovychs. There has also been a sharp rise criminal acts, particularly with the use of firearms. Half an hour later, we saw two youths on a nearby side road examining a pistol, it looked very much like one of those taken away from the Ministry of Interior unit.

After a belated show of force, attacks on checkpoints around Slovyansk – where a lot of pro-Moscow strength is concentrated – and setting up of checkpoints around the city the government forces seem hesitant about what to do, despite daily claims from Kiev that the anti-terrorist mission is going full throttle. An attack on Kramatorsk airport, where most of the troops are based, had led to many of the senior staff being evacuated, either to Odessa, or all the way back to Kiev.

After brief apprehension of a government counterattack, the militants have resumed their piecemeal takeover of the Donbass. They occupied state buildings at Konstantinovka on Monday and three more in the space of four hours at Luhansk, where they had been holding the intelligence headquarters for weeks, yesterday. Two more buildings were occupied this morning at Horlivka, the place from where a local politician, Vladimir Rybak, was abducted, tortured and murdered.

There were bitter complaints from Kiev that the police had done nothing to counter the attacks. The country’s interim president Oleksandr Turchynov stated: “The vast majority of law enforcement officials in the east are not fulfilling their obligation to protect our citizens.” This is not the first time he and his ministers had made that charge; citizens, meanwhile, continue to be unprotected.

Yevgeny Shibalov has his head swathed in bandages, injuries sustained by being hit with bricks at close range when separatists ambushed a march in support of Ukrainian unity on Monday evening. Most of the riot police contingent had stood by as youths and men emerged from the shadows wielding metal rods and chains, with a ready supply of missiles, including fireworks, beating up terrified demonstrators who had tried to take refuge in shop fronts and doorways.

“I saw one of our guys fall, I went to help him, got hit by a brick and fell myself; when I got up, I was hit again with a brick”, the 32-year-old activist recalled. “I went to a doorway to take shelter; then, luckily, some of the paramedics found me and I was taken to hospital.”

Pro-Ukrainians have largely been keeping off the streets, but a rally around 10 days ago ended peacefully with a large police presence. Mr Shibalov, who had been part of the protest movement in the east for the last five months, said: “I don’t know what happened this time, there seemed to be no coordination between different types of police. Some did try to help, there were two policemen at the hospital with injuries, but most of them stood watching, others just disappeared.

“It’s definitely much more dangerous now being a pro-Ukrainian, pro-democracy activist, not just at marches. There have been threats, attacks; a lot of my friends have either left this area or sent their families away. The pro-Moscow people have this referendum coming up [on secession] soon, they have threatened they will really deal with us after that.”

Pro-Ukrainian activists draw a giant map of Ukraine with marked territory which can be lost in result of separatist's activity, in front of Parliament building in Kiev (EPA) Pro-Ukrainian activists draw a giant map of Ukraine with marked territory which can be lost in result of separatist's activity, in front of Parliament building in Kiev (EPA)
The view from the separatist activists who have claimed the streets is very different on what happened at the demonstration.

“It was provocation for the Ukrainians to hold this march at this time. They are being directed by the junta in Kiev, these are tests to see how quickly they can organize themselves for an uprising”, was the view of Sergei, a 50-year-old former train guard, whose physique had earned him the nickname "the hammer" from his comrades.

“As for the trouble, I think you’ll find that started when a policeman threw a stun grenade at our side. Most of the police are on the side of the people, but some are spies of the junta. Before that ultras [football supporters] had started attacking our side. We arrested some and handed them over to the police.

“We want a referendum. I personally don’t want to join Russia, but the Kiev junta may force us to do that by sending their troops and their terrorists”.

The centre of Donetsk is a relatively small place: outside the administrative building under separatist control, I ran into a young man, one of the few with their faces uncovered, who was gathered around the SUV. “What exactly happened there?” I asked. The young man shrugged: “You can’t tell who is who now with everyone wearing masks, carrying guns. They could be anyone, dangerous people, you see how fast they moved with all that stuff?”

Where did his own allegiance lie? “I am just an ordinary citizen of Donetsk Republic, helping out,” he smirked, twirling his baseball bat.

A couple of comments in the Independent.

The Chicksands propaganda chaps have a problem with this Uke story. The pro-Russian elements want a referendum, to express their wishes democratically. Very difficult to spin this as a 'Uke' fight against the communist/corrupt calitalist, 'Russian bear'. The Kiev coupsters know they will lose the vote, so the Nazi answer is the hammer of violence. The pro-EU/IMF/FUKUSA party line is thus to present the counter-violence as Russian-fomented, territorial expansionism.

One almost feels sorry for Cpt. Sengupta, but not after he slipped in that line, accusing the old gov of sniping 100 Maidan victims to death. For all his considerable faults, Yanukovich refrained from unleashing the 'security forces' on the Maidan protests. The shots apparently came from the Ukraine Hotel, hotbed of the West's NGO grit-stirrers.

More violence & 'anarchy' are the only answer the Kiev thugs have to a thoro drubbing at the polls. They hope that will provoke a Russian military intervention. Then they can scream "Invasion!"

Hence Chicksands' & Sengupta's dizzying spinning. Don't be confused. FUKUSA is merely applying the Libya-Syria formula to Russia.

The Coup crowd in Kyiv have led Ukraine into a systemic political crisis. Whatever the CIA/NSA etc told them before the coup it now appears that the US will not go to war on their behalf. So its just the Coup leaders and whatever remains of the Ukrainian police and army against the Russian army. The East of Ukraine has already detached itself before the IMF cure takes hold. A bankrupt country run with the aid of fascists that has begun to fragment. With rulers that have declared as their enemy the largest country in the world with whom they have a land border. A strategy for survival, don't think so.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 01 May 2014 11:21

Suraj wrote: In reality, Russia is maintaining a posture that follows the template of the era of Peter the Great. They have always sought a pliant buffer between them and Europe proper.

What buffer states? That's something that emerged only after the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires collapsed at the end of WWI. Stalin in the late 1930s before WWII, and again after WWII had a policy trying to reabsorb as many of these states as possible.

Historically, Russia has been repeatedly taken on by Europe, whether it's by Napoleon, the British in Crimea or the Nazis. They've always been paranoid about that, and with NATO ignoring their 90s era assurances not to expand, still are. Question - would the west ever put the topic of a rollback of the NATO on the table ? I think not. Yet, it expects Russia not to revert to Soviet era borders. Why ?

Russia has historically only been isolated when it chose to unilaterally re-do borders in Europe. In the Crimean war they faced France and the Ottoman Empire as well.

Russia was not alone in facing Napoleon and Hitler, and had European allies in those struggles because those figures threatened all of Europe as well.

There's no question that Moscow has been angry about NATO in the post cold war era, and that this anger was wished away or dismissed as manageable in places like DC, Berlin, Paris and London.

But why were all of those ex-Warsaw Pact and ex-Soviet states keen to join NATO? In dollar terms the military aid they received was minor compared to Israel, Egypt or even Colombia. What was attractive to eastern European states like Poland and the Baltic Republics that had been invaded and had territory annexed twice by Moscow in living memory is that it was a guarantee against invasion. No one was sure how deep the changes in the Russian political system were, or if they would stick. No one was quite sure how Russia would behave once it recovered. But once your territory was guaranteed by NATO, Russia had to treat you as a peer state because coercive threats were off the table. That is priceless.

NATO works on consensus including on bigger questions like new membership. Forces can not be moved into any country without that government's willingness. There's nothing that stops Russia from cultivating close ties to individual NATO members, as it does across party lines with Bulgaria, Slovakia, Greece, Cyprus, and the governments of Schroeder in Germany and Berlusconi in Italy. But Russia has to use persuasion rather than threat, and that's fine with me.

no problem collectively addressing several people as an 'excitable cadre' (even more Cold War language), but take issue with one of us suggesting our position is largely a collective one....As to those repeatedly using rhetoric supporting Moscow to respond to you, I fail to see the problem with that.

Suraj, I used the term cadre because I was referring to the cold war past when people were actually formally organised together. What I said was that the passion of a few people here reminded me of the passion of the cadres - and that passion seems to manifest itself in posts whether I'm here or not. And yes, that is very different from the posts I see from you or UBC. You are skeptical of CNN and White House narratives, but I don't see passion for RT or the Kremlin POV.

I'm just not much for national labels and sticking flags on things at the level of individual and small group opinion and interaction - its never that simple. I've always rejected the idea that I represent anything other than myself when I speak, even though there are people who can not resist seeing what I have to say primarily through union jack tinted glasses. I find any and every kind of nationalism tedious beyond a certain point.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 May 2014 11:35

Why does the NATO exist in the first place? Why is that war alliance increasing by day when the primary threat it professed has reduced?

Who is the NATO war alliance fighting against and why?

Dont get me started on the buffer zones. The successfull monroe doctrine has made the whole Americas a buffer zone. The US has the biggest buffer zone since the start of century. Even the soviets never had a 10th of the buffer zone which the US has. US has a colony in the cuba through the guantanamo. Why does it want to have bases in foreign countries when the people dont want it?

I will replace in your answer US with russia.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 01 May 2014 11:51

'm just not much for national labels and sticking flags on things at the level of individual and small group opinion and interaction - its never that simple. I've always rejected the idea that I represent anything other than myself when I speak, even though there are people who can not resist seeing what I have to say primarily through union jack tinted glasses. I find any and every kind of nationalism tedious beyond a certain point.

I fully agree with this.The white man has progressed to a post-modernist society wherein passports,visas do not matter.These SDRes with their group think and tribal passions,controlled narrative,caste system,their yearning for a dictator like Modi overlooking the million faultlines within India really do suck.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 01 May 2014 11:52

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Johann,

So why the instinctive hatred for Russia or the Russian system. There is little of that hatred for the Chinese system for instance, which has swallowed up more lands, been more irrational and long term is much more problem creating than Russia.

My own suspicion is that the west too is instinctively reverting to the cold war narrative being peddled by discredited cold warriors, without realizing how much Russia has changed and how much more of a liberal democracy it is today.

Theo_Fidel wrote:Didn't China recently unilaterally annex a piece of ocean and islands larger than western Europe? Forcibly occupied the spratlys and shot at random passersby. There has been zero consequences. In fact some have been quietly urging China to 'occupy' NoKo no questions asked.

This distaste for Russia is quite odd one must say. Russia gone more than half way in reforming it self for interaction with the west and yet the cold war prism continues going strong. There is almost no difference between Russia and the EU now and yet the temptation to slip into old roles remains.

China gets a pass....

Theo, have you wondered why China is largely supportive of the Russian position on Crimea and Donbass?

Its because both of these states are making territorial claims, and face collective regional response, with US participation in both. China's pushiness against South Korea, Japan and ASEAN states is receiving backing, and there is coordination. The US has just confirmed that its bilateral security treaty covers the disputed areas.

As Krishna points out the EU and US has maintained an arms embargo on the PRC for a quarter of a century now, while Russia has sold the PRC advanced air and naval platforms.

At least in Western Europe there is no 'hatred' for the current system ruling Russia, just distaste. Parts of Eastern Europe that had hundreds of thousands executed or shipped of to gulags under Stalin is a different story, especially when Lenin's remains are still in the Kremlin wall. Russia wants to be respected in Europe, and treated as a friend and neighbour, but that means it has to conform to post-WWII standards. Russia's political system which was ugly and chaotic under Yeltsin (he lost my support when he used tanks against parliament in 1993) is now ugly and well organised under Putin, who appears to have every intention of ruling for life or at least total disability - again not unlike Yeltsin. Being in open opposition to Putin in Russia is dangerous to your health and your ability to stay out of court or jail. So is being homosexual theses days. The Kremlin can't have it both ways.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 01 May 2014 11:58

svenkat wrote:I fully agree with this.The white man has progressed to a post-modernist society wherein passports,visas do not matter.These SDRes with their group think and tribal passions,controlled narrative,caste system,their yearning for a dictator like Modi overlooking the million faultlines within India really do suck.

Svenkat no need to be so local in perspective. The Tea Party sucks and UKIP sucks too, and so do the mainstream politicians that try to sound like them. Religious nationalism is a global phenomenon, and it sucks everywhere.