PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

[sanjaykumar]

Yes but if China withdrew from its occupied territories, many more Chinese babies would be saved with that money.

[Liu]

The Indian media is more enlightened and moral than the the CCP, would say the same for certain sections of the North American media, not necessarily all. The Indian media's coverage of the Bofors scandal back in the 80's was effective in turning people against the Congress and Rajiv Gandhi, and cause him to lose the next election. The media was not threatened for its reportage of the issue. When an incumbent government is about to lose an election, they accept the loss gracefully, not threaten violence.

Western mainstream media's coverage of Russia-Ukraine falls along traditional lines. But you get counter views and perspectives, whether from letters to the editor, academia or special media( i.e smaller newspapers, less commercial TV channels).

The question is not just one of press freedom, but of different perspectives expressed openly. In China, everything is about mighty mighty state and great Chinese people and great achievements.

do you know something like "political right"???
for example:
if you were one Public figure,then you could not tell people that the black might be less intelligent but more stronger than other races.
otherwise ,you would be label" racist" and paid high cost for it.

[svinayak]

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Emergi ... s_2014.pdf

Why Chinese Companies Struggle to Go Global

Why Chinese Companies Struggle to Go Global
Even as some Chinese companies, such as Lenovo and Haier, have become household names worldwide, others have stumbled in their efforts to go global. A new study by the World Economic Forum conducted in collaboration with Strategy& offers insight into what the roadblocks have been, and practical advice on how to overcome then.

The report, “Emerging Best Practices of Chinese Globalizers: Tackle the Operational Challenges,” is based on a survey of 125 leading global Chinese companies. Although the study targets Chinese multinationals, the challenges it identifies are universal: tensions between the home and host countries, between standardization and innovation, and between oversight and empowerment. Those companies that succeed have focused energy and resources on developing on operating model that’s enabled them find the right balance. These “globalization champions” are outperforming their peers when it comes to establishing their global footprint.

China’s “globalization champions” outperform their peers when it comes to establishing their global fo

http://www.strategy-business.com/blog/C ... a-Innovate

Can China Innovate?
China is on track to become the world’s largest economy within the next 20 years or so—a position it held during most of its 2,000 years of recorded economic history. But what kind of economy will China be? Will it remain a low-cost producer of manufactured goods for the rest of the world, or will it learn to develop higher value-added products and become a developed economy itself? In other words, will China be another Brazil, which has remained stuck at middle-income levels for more than 50 years? Or will it be more like its East Asian neighbors—Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan—who have all been able to escape from the so-called middle-income trap?

Most observers believe that the key to China’s transition from a low-cost to a high-value economy is whether it can learn how to innovate rather than merely imitate. Beijing itself subscribes wholeheartedly to this view and has tried to stimulate indigenous innovation through heavy investments in Silicon Valley–like science parks, green energy, other technologies with leapfrog potential, and, of course, industrial policies designed to “encourage” technology transfer from the West. In fact, China’s leaders have obsessed about catching up with Western technology ever since China’s sudden and ignominious fall from grace in the late 19th century. And its repeated inability to catch up—from the Tongzhi Restoration’s unsuccessful attempt at economic and military reform in the 1870s to Mao’s disastrous Great Leap Forward in the late 1950s—continues to fuel a palpable sense of shame and resentment that informs much of China’s policies and zeitgeist today.

[Rishirishi]

I have seen news in China, here is how it is;

You have a flood, and they show people in great misery. Enters the stage a small "army" of helpers, all well organized, well equipped and motivated. They battle the natural disaster and helps the people out. Finally an interview with a saved person who prases the efforts of the helpers, the party, china bla bla bla



Here is Indian news.

Show people in great stress. Sad stories, Gov officials intervied, then proved wrong by pictures. Politicians have to answer all kind of questions.



In China
Goverment is never critisized.

In India
Politicians are thrown out, government officials are sacked or transferred. There is a constant presure on the politicians.

[Rishirishi]

As for the economy of china, a 4% growth will probably be ok. Even at 2% will they not complain. But what if the economy contracts by 10%, what happnes then? The governemnt will simply be blamed as most chinease think it is a natural law that Chinease economy should grow. Anythingelse will lead to some very angry poeple.

[DavidD]

As for the economy of china, a 4% growth will probably be ok. Even at 2% will they not complain. But what if the economy contracts by 10%, what happnes then? The governemnt will simply be blamed as most chinease think it is a natural law that Chinease economy should grow. Anythingelse will lead to some very angry poeple.

10% contraction and the CCP deserves to be overthrown. There's no reason for so many smart, hardworking, ambitious people to drop their collective productivity by 10% except for extremely poor governance.

[DavidD]

I have seen news in China, here is how it is;

You have a flood, and they show people in great misery. Enters the stage a small "army" of helpers, all well organized, well equipped and motivated. They battle the natural disaster and helps the people out. Finally an interview with a saved person who prases the efforts of the helpers, the party, china bla bla bla



Here is Indian news.

Show people in great stress. Sad stories, Gov officials intervied, then proved wrong by pictures. Politicians have to answer all kind of questions.



In China
Goverment is never critisized.

In India
Politicians are thrown out, government officials are sacked or transferred. There is a constant presure on the politicians.

And then what happens? Another equally incompetent politician serving the same agendas rise up to replace the deposed. Man down, man up, and everything stays the same. Politicians need money to get elected, and that money will be driving the agenda, not the politicians with their short shelf lives.

What's really interesting about your back-to-back posts is how in the first you emphasize how much pressure is on the Chinese politicians, so much pressure that the entire system may crumble from one misstep, yet in the second you emphasize how little pressure is on them, so little pressure that they couldn't care less about actually doing things for the people. You can't have it both ways, you know. The truth lies in the results. In 1962 at the end of the disastrous Great Leap Forward, China's life expectancy was only about 2 years ahead of India's, but since 1965, China's lead in life expectancy over India's has not fallen below 8 years. How significant is an 8 year advantage in life expectancy? The U.S. only leads China by 3.5 years (it was a 25 years lead in 1962). With all the much-criticized pollution in China, they're still twice as close to an advanced large nation like the U.S. as India is to China.

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

[Shankas]

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

India's free media allows us to vent without fear. In fact it is so good that even our Chinese brothers choose to visit BR to express themselves freely without any fear of retribution.

[DavidD]

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

India's free media allows us to vent without fear. In fact it is so good that even our Chinese brothers choose to visit BR to express themselves freely without any fear of retribution.

Exactly. Just as Liu said, what the free media does is allow people to vent, to engage in empty talk that reduces social tension, puts little pressure on the system, and thus resulting in few changes. Now the question is, do you want actual changes, or do you just want to vent? Somebody mentioned the Bofors scandal earlier, how's the field gun acquisition coming along, some 30 years later?

[Liu]

I have seen news in China, here is how it is;

You have a flood, and they show people in great misery. Enters the stage a small "army" of helpers, all well organized, well equipped and motivated. They battle the natural disaster and helps the people out. Finally an interview with a saved person who prases the efforts of the helpers, the party, china bla bla bla



Here is Indian news.

Show people in great stress. Sad stories, Gov officials intervied, then proved wrong by pictures. Politicians have to answer all kind of questions.



In China
Goverment is never critisized.

In India
Politicians are thrown out, government officials are sacked or transferred. There is a constant presure on the politicians.

really?

one Gandhi was down, another Gandhi is up and many Gandhs are waiting for their futunue.


Morever,whoever is in the power in India, tycoons like Tata are always the dominant class in India society.


in CHina, Mao was down, then Deng was up.Deng was down ,then Jiang was up. Jiang was down, then Hu was up, now it is the turn of XI.

Now,some of Mao's granddagughters are just ordinary people,living on their limited pension like other retired ordinary CHinese....

are the Gandhis worried about pension like ordinacy Indians?

[Liu]

As for the economy of china, a 4% growth will probably be ok. Even at 2% will they not complain. But what if the economy contracts by 10%, what happnes then? The governemnt will simply be blamed as most chinease think it is a natural law that Chinease economy should grow. Anythingelse will lead to some very angry poeple.

in most countries including CHina. one contract of 10% in short time would usually cause the change of the government , the adjustment of policies or even one revolution.

that is why Deng abandoened Mao's policty and why CCP defeated KMT and came into the power in 1949.

however, India is one of exceptions.

When India economy gets in crisis, India usually does nothing but change the cabinet. Except another new cabinent, everything remains on....such as bureaucracy,corruption,dominant tycoons, incompetent politicians and poverty. the kids of the poor are still poor and have no chance to get good jobs ,however hard they work. the kids of the rich are still the rich even without any hard work.

India needs Change and real reform,but india never does it, that is why india got left behind S.kroea,Taiwan,Tailand and CHina one by one after WWII.

[svinayak]

When India economy gets in crisis, India usually does nothing but change the cabinet. Except another new cabinent, everything remains on....such as bureaucracy,corruption,dominant tycoons, incompetent politicians and poverty. the kids of poor are still poor and have no chance to get good jobs ,however hard they work. the kids of the rich are still the rich even without any hard work.

India needs Change and real reform,but india never does it, that is why india got left behind S.kroea,Taiwan,Tailand and CHina one by one after WWII.

Ha Ha Ha
He He He

[Varoon Shekhar]

Most articulate, self aware Indians would say that democracy and freedom are instrinsically good, and that whatever problems a country or society have- and there are going to be problems, issues- it's more enlightened and mature to be democratic, open and free, not the opposite. There's even a saying in India "democracy(freedom) is development". Now, there are others, including a few Indians, who would maintain that democracy and freedom are only good if they buy you something. Well, that's a view, but it's not widely held in India, the US or Western Europe.

[saip]

Banned! 7 things you won't find in China

Link

Even the Big Bang Theory is banned!

[Rishirishi]

I have seen news in China, here is how it is;

You have a flood, and they show people in great misery. Enters the stage a small "army" of helpers, all well organized, well equipped and motivated. They battle the natural disaster and helps the people out. Finally an interview with a saved person who prases the efforts of the helpers, the party, china bla bla bla



Here is Indian news.

Show people in great stress. Sad stories, Gov officials intervied, then proved wrong by pictures. Politicians have to answer all kind of questions.



In China
Goverment is never critisized.

In India
Politicians are thrown out, government officials are sacked or transferred. There is a constant presure on the politicians.

And then what happens? Another equally incompetent politician serving the same agendas rise up to replace the deposed. Man down, man up, and everything stays the same. Politicians need money to get elected, and that money will be driving the agenda, not the politicians with their short shelf lives.

What's really interesting about your back-to-back posts is how in the first you emphasize how much pressure is on the Chinese politicians, so much pressure that the entire system may crumble from one misstep, yet in the second you emphasize how little pressure is on them, so little pressure that they couldn't care less about actually doing things for the people. You can't have it both ways, you know. The truth lies in the results. In 1962 at the end of the disastrous Great Leap Forward, China's life expectancy was only about 2 years ahead of India's, but since 1965, China's lead in life expectancy over India's has not fallen below 8 years. How significant is an 8 year advantage in life expectancy? The U.S. only leads China by 3.5 years (it was a 25 years lead in 1962). With all the much-criticized pollution in China, they're still twice as close to an advanced large nation like the U.S. as India is to China.

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

Using India as a yardstic is not relevant. India started its opening of economy 15 years later, as compared to China. China also had an advantage of overseas export economies like HK, Taiwan and Macao in ints proximity. I am not saying that the Indian system is better today. Indian economic growth is not centered arround export, it is oriented arround crating greater efficiencies in the economy.

The Chinease politicians (if you can call them that) are supreme and not answrable to anyone. Hence there is no proper audit or their activity. They have become very rich. However they will have problems holding on to power if the economy contracts by say 10%. There is no contradiction in this. The Chinese politicians will go to great llength and even acto against the collective interest of China, in order to protect their kingdom (Because kingdom it is).

If you follow the Indian politics today, you will see that the public is demanding better management. The Congress will be thrown out and be replaced by Narendara Modi who has a very good track record on economic development.

The questions are.
1 How solid is Chinas economic miracle?, economy, empowerment, social development etc
2 How will the chinese ruling elite respond to corrections of the economy?
3 How sucessfull are Indians in voting in an decent government?

[Liu]

[quoteAnd then what happens? Another equally incompetent politician serving the same agendas rise up to replace the deposed. Man down, man up, and everything stays the same. Politicians need money to get elected, and that money will be driving the agenda, not the politicians with their short shelf lives.

What's really interesting about your back-to-back posts is how in the first you emphasize how much pressure is on the Chinese politicians, so much pressure that the entire system may crumble from one misstep, yet in the second you emphasize how little pressure is on them, so little pressure that they couldn't care less about actually doing things for the people. You can't have it both ways, you know. The truth lies in the results. In 1962 at the end of the disastrous Great Leap Forward, China's life expectancy was only about 2 years ahead of India's, but since 1965, China's lead in life expectancy over India's has not fallen below 8 years. How significant is an 8 year advantage in life expectancy? The U.S. only leads China by 3.5 years (it was a 25 years lead in 1962). With all the much-criticized pollution in China, they're still twice as close to an advanced large nation like the U.S. as India is to China.

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

Using India as a yardstic is not relevant. India started its opening of economy 15 years later, as compared to China. China also had an advantage of overseas export economies like HK, Taiwan and Macao in ints proximity. I am not saying that the Indian system is better today. Indian economic growth is not centered arround export, it is oriented arround crating greater efficiencies in the economy.

The Chinease politicians (if you can call them that) are supreme and not answrable to anyone. Hence there is no proper audit or their activity. They have become very rich. However they will have problems holding on to power if the economy contracts by say 10%. There is no contradiction in this. The Chinese politicians will go to great llength and even acto against the collective interest of China, in order to protect their kingdom (Because kingdom it is).

If you follow the Indian politics today, you will see that the public is demanding better management. The Congress will be thrown out and be replaced by Narendara Modi who has a very good track record on economic development.

The questions are.
1 How solid is Chinas economic miracle?, economy, empowerment, social development etc
2 How will the chinese ruling elite respond to corrections of the economy?
3 How sucessfull are Indians in voting in an decent government?

1. whoever is in the power in India,including Modi, can not bring real reform in India as long as vote politics is still on in india.
the lbiggest barrier to the development of India is india voters themselves,because most voters are short-sighted .
they would sell their votes for short-term interest such as some pieces of free bread, at the cost of long-term national interest such as the relocation for infrastructure-building.

2. real long-sighted politicians like Deng xiaoping can hardly be elected by most voters india,because their long-sighted plans might harm the short-term interest of most voter,before bring long-term fruit and development for the country.
for example
if someone in India raise "one-kid policy" in india, he would even have the chance to be the candidate of town-mayor, let alone the PM or senators.

3. CHinese politicians needn't worry about votes, and they also needn't worry about their pension,because current system assure that they can have cozy retired life.
the only thing they need is the public's good remark on their deeds during their term.

that is why Deng xiao ping can carry out "one kid" policy while India leaders could not.
that is also why Chinese people can afford 10 time more autos than Indian people while indian family have 2-3 time more kids than Chinese families.

[Christopher Sidor]

I have seen news in China, here is how it is;

You have a flood, and they show people in great misery. Enters the stage a small "army" of helpers, all well organized, well equipped and motivated. They battle the natural disaster and helps the people out. Finally an interview with a saved person who prases the efforts of the helpers, the party, china bla bla bla



Here is Indian news.

Show people in great stress. Sad stories, Gov officials intervied, then proved wrong by pictures. Politicians have to answer all kind of questions.



In China
Goverment is never critisized.

In India
Politicians are thrown out, government officials are sacked or transferred. There is a constant presure on the politicians.

And then what happens? Another equally incompetent politician serving the same agendas rise up to replace the deposed. Man down, man up, and everything stays the same. Politicians need money to get elected, and that money will be driving the agenda, not the politicians with their short shelf lives.

What's really interesting about your back-to-back posts is how in the first you emphasize how much pressure is on the Chinese politicians, so much pressure that the entire system may crumble from one misstep, yet in the second you emphasize how little pressure is on them, so little pressure that they couldn't care less about actually doing things for the people. You can't have it both ways, you know. The truth lies in the results. In 1962 at the end of the disastrous Great Leap Forward, China's life expectancy was only about 2 years ahead of India's, but since 1965, China's lead in life expectancy over India's has not fallen below 8 years. How significant is an 8 year advantage in life expectancy? The U.S. only leads China by 3.5 years (it was a 25 years lead in 1962). With all the much-criticized pollution in China, they're still twice as close to an advanced large nation like the U.S. as India is to China.

So, tell me, just how much good has the free media done for your people?

It has prevented our government from running tanks over us.

[Christopher Sidor]

Exactly. Just as Liu said, what the free media does is allow people to vent, to engage in empty talk that reduces social tension, puts little pressure on the system, and thus resulting in few changes. Now the question is, do you want actual changes, or do you just want to vent? Somebody mentioned the Bofors scandal earlier, how's the field gun acquisition coming along, some 30 years later?

We'll let me put it this way, we atleast investigate alleged wrong doings by our highest government officials, elected and non-elected. Was Mao ever investigated for his role in all the mass murder he committed during his depraved rule? Nah

After Mao's rule was he investigated? Nah. Even Soviets had the guts to face the horrors that Stalin did to their people.

Was Deng questioned when he literally ordered people to be compressed under the tanks? After Deng's death was an inquiry ordered? No

Why talk about the dead let us take the example of the living. The character who was directly and indirectly responsible for the pogrom of Tibetians in the late 1980's and who eventually became the President of PRC, Mr Hu, was he ever put in front of an investigative team during and after his tenure for his crimes? Was the premier under Hu, whose family got fabulous rich, ever questioned? Was he ever investigated?

And you are pointing out one investigation which India has been conducting?

[Christopher Sidor]

1. whoever is in the power in India,including Modi, can not bring real reform in India as long as vote politics is still on in india.
the lbiggest barrier to the development of India is india voters themselves,because most voters are short-sighted .
they would sell their votes for short-term interest such as some pieces of free bread, at the cost of long-term national interest such as the relocation for infrastructure-building.

You came to this conclusion how? Please enlighten us?

2. real long-sighted politicians like Deng xiaoping can hardly be elected by most voters india,because their long-sighted plans might harm the short-term interest of most voter,before bring long-term fruit and development for the country.
for example
if someone in India raise "one-kid policy" in india, he would even have the chance to be the candidate of town-mayor, let alone the PM or senators.

Really and their decisions have been for the good? Like how many people died in the Great Leap Forward or the cultural nonsense? And basically when you say that Chinese lived longer than Indians during that time, whose figures are you reading the figures of PRC? I certainly hope that your assertion is based on something more solid. Wasn't one of the leading lights of PRC who said that most of the stats of PRC man-made or something similar?
Now about the One-Child policy. We in India tried it in 1975 and rejected it a few years later. But PRC persisted so much that it will grow old before it becomes prosperous. Another example of far sighted policies or shall I say blunders which the CPC enforced on a helpless people. That is the beauty of our system, we can do course correction. CPC cannot, not unless the current crop of Chinese leaders want to go the way of a certain general secretary of the Romanian Communist Party. This particular individual was tried and executed not only for murdering his own people but also for sabotage of the Economy.

3. CHinese politicians needn't worry about votes, and they also needn't worry about their pension,because current system assure that they can have cozy retired life.
the only thing they need is the public's good remark on their deeds during their term.

that is why Deng xiao ping can carry out "one kid" policy while India leaders could not.
that is also why Chinese people can afford 10 time more autos than Indian people while indian family have 2-3 time more kids than Chinese families.

And you are sure that current system will continue and these so called leaders, I would consider them thugs or better still criminals, would continue to get their pensions? And without the rulers being accountable how can one be sure that the decision that they are taking is either for the greater good or for the good of their extended family alone?
India will have a younger population till atleast 2050, by that time PRC would become a country of old or middle age humans.

[Rishirishi]

[quote]1. whoever is in the power in India,including Modi, can not bring real reform in India as long as vote politics is still on in india.
the lbiggest barrier to the development of India is india voters themselves,because most voters are short-sighted .
they would sell their votes for short-term interest such as some pieces of free bread, at the cost of long-term national interest such as the relocation for infrastructure-building.

2. real long-sighted politicians like Deng xiaoping can hardly be elected by most voters india,because their long-sighted plans might harm the short-term interest of most voter,before bring long-term fruit and development for the country.
for example
if someone in India raise "one-kid policy" in india, he would even have the chance to be the candidate of town-mayor, let alone the PM or senators.

3. CHinese politicians needn't worry about votes, and they also needn't worry about their pension,because current system assure that they can have cozy retired life.
the only thing they need is the public's good remark on their deeds during their term.

that is why Deng xiao ping can carry out "one kid" policy while India leaders could not.
that is also why Chinese people can afford 10 time more autos than Indian people while indian family have 2-3 time more kids than Chinese families.

[quote]

I see where you are coming from. After all who will want democracy, if the rulers can give the growth like China. But a lot of it is simply false. The downfall can be horrendous. My prediction is a 25-30% contraction. Exports are going to be hit by the inflation and increase in costs. It is already happening. The huge construction industry will also come to a hault the moment people realize that prices start falling. The government will have to cut spending in infrastructure. All this can lead to a global resesssion for rawmaterials and energy. The massive industrial investment into construction material will suffer a huge blow.
This is my prediction.

No country of size, has managed to become a truly firstworld country without democracy. Only democracy can deliver the enpowerment of the masses, which is required to crate stable growth.

[Liu]

I see where you are coming from. After all who will want democracy, if the rulers can give the growth like China. But a lot of it is simply false. The downfall can be horrendous. My prediction is a 25-30% contraction. Exports are going to be hit by the inflation and increase in costs. It is already happening. The huge construction industry will also come to a hault the moment people realize that prices start falling. The government will have to cut spending in infrastructure. All this can lead to a global resesssion for rawmaterials and energy. The massive industrial investment into construction material will suffer a huge blow.
This is my prediction.

No country of size, has managed to become a truly firstworld country without democracy. Only democracy can deliver the enpowerment of the masses, which is required to crate stable growth.

[/quote]

well, it is no use us debating which system is more superior...
just let the truth talks ,ok?

if in 10 years, CHinese per capita GDP surpasses 20K USD and reaches "first world level" so called, you will own me a aire ticket to India.otherwise I will own you a air ticket to CHina,ok???

[DavidD]

It has prevented our government from running tanks over us.

But not from your government letting millions of baby die every year. I suppose you like that trade off, so there's nothing more I could say. To each his own!

[DavidD]

Using India as a yardstic is not relevant. India started its opening of economy 15 years later, as compared to China. China also had an advantage of overseas export economies like HK, Taiwan and Macao in ints proximity. I am not saying that the Indian system is better today. Indian economic growth is not centered arround export, it is oriented arround crating greater efficiencies in the economy.

The Chinease politicians (if you can call them that) are supreme and not answrable to anyone. Hence there is no proper audit or their activity. They have become very rich. However they will have problems holding on to power if the economy contracts by say 10%. There is no contradiction in this. The Chinese politicians will go to great llength and even acto against the collective interest of China, in order to protect their kingdom (Because kingdom it is).

If you follow the Indian politics today, you will see that the public is demanding better management. The Congress will be thrown out and be replaced by Narendara Modi who has a very good track record on economic development.

The questions are.
1 How solid is Chinas economic miracle?, economy, empowerment, social development etc
2 How will the chinese ruling elite respond to corrections of the economy?
3 How sucessfull are Indians in voting in an decent government?

So I can't use India as a yardstick of incompetence because it's too incompetent to reform and open up 15 years earlier? Where's the logic in that? We can argue ad infinitum which system is theoretically better, or we can look at which system has actually produced results. I mean, Communism sounded great on paper too, at least at one time, but the results have proven otherwise, no?

As for your three questions, the two pertaining China deal with the future. We can speculate how solid China's economic miracle is and how the ruling elite respond to corrections of the economy, and you have speculated a 30% contraction it sounds like, and Liu clearly speculated a 100+% growth, but we really won't know until the future comes to pass. The last question, the one pertaining to India, may be answered now however since India has voted many times in its quest for a decent government. I've made my position clear--I'll take a few hundred protesters dying 25 years ago over millions of babies dying each and every single year, and I'll take suppressed freedom of speech for 1.3 billion people over tens of millions of babies being denied the freedom to experience life. You clearly value your ability to rant on an internet message boards over the lives of children, soI don't think there's any way for us to reconcile our differences.

[DavidD]

Most articulate, self aware Indians would say that democracy and freedom are instrinsically good, and that whatever problems a country or society have- and there are going to be problems, issues- it's more enlightened and mature to be democratic, open and free, not the opposite. There's even a saying in India "democracy(freedom) is development". Now, there are others, including a few Indians, who would maintain that democracy and freedom are only good if they buy you something. Well, that's a view, but it's not widely held in India, the US or Western Europe.

Actually, that's a view widely held everywhere, in India, in the U.S., and everywhere else. Is Modi and his BJP about to be elected because of his exemplary record of upholding democracy and freedom, or because of their stellar economic performance in Gujarat? Did Bush lose to Clinton in '92 because of he and his Republican's party's inability to tear down the Berlin Wall, free Eastern Europe, and liberate Kuwait, or because of the tanking U.S. economy? Are governments across the world refusing to recognize Taiwan and increasingly refuse to meet with the Dalai Lama because of their moral backbone or because their economic backbone is increasingly leaning on the PRC?

Democracy and freedom are intrinsically good, I won't argue that, but so is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Unfortunately, human nature is what it is. We humans are incapable of being selfless enough to sustain communism, as earnest attempts by Mao to establish such communes failed miserably during the Great Leap Forward. Similarly, we humans are also incapable of setting aside our petty grievances and working together for the long term common good, and instead, when given a choice every couple of years, we always focus on the short-term benefits, the low hanging fruit.

IMO, Democracy and its associated freedoms are great for defusing social tensions and are thus very valuable for keeping a developed nation from collapsing, but it is not good for a developing nation. Nation-building requires concerted national efforts and long-term vision that is precluded by democracy. Some mentioned that no country has become a developed nation without democracy, it's actually the exact opposite. Every single nation of any significance that missed the first wave of industrialization (i.e. the first two industrial revolutions) has developed under an authoritarian regime. South Korea did it, Taiwan did it, Singapore did it, and before them the Russians and the Japanese did it.

[Varoon Shekhar]

The Chinese ideology and worldview can be succinctly described as ruthless, relentless, cold blooded pragmatism with the intent of accumulating wealth and power for the Chinese state, so that it can project power and influence within its own borders, and simultaneously in its neighbourhood and ultimately the world. China wants to deal with the rest of the world from a position of domination, at the least pre-eminence. China fancies itself as the middle kingdom, controlling, dominating, subjugating. India desires and works for, in its slow, subtle,perhaps plodding way, multi-polarity, pluralism, interdependence, consensus, equality among countries. India thus is disliked by China, and by powerful, entrenched elements in the US, and the UK, France and Germany. All these countries are very happy with oligarchy, the domination of the few. They may not always like each other, and are certainly not thrilled with China, but they can understand each other and China. The dislike of India is certainly not because India is some expansionistic, miltaristic country seeking to dominate and control others, rather the opposite. In the long run, if India is left unchecked it will undermine empire and the oligarchy.

[Christopher Sidor]

It has prevented our government from running tanks over us.

But not from your government letting millions of baby die every year. I suppose you like that trade off, so there's nothing more I could say. To each his own!

Well no different than feeding little ones melamine laced milk. By the way do mothers in PRC still go outside of China to buy milk or milk products for their infants?

[DavidD]

Well no different than feeding little ones melamine laced milk. By the way do mothers in PRC still go outside of China to buy milk or milk products for their infants?

No different? Did you miss the part about how millions more Indian babies die? Is "millions" not different enough for you?

[Theo_Fidel]

DD you are trolling now.

This is a thread about China. Indian posters will comment about India because they have experience. Chinese 50-centers do not get to post about India. You have no experience. Stick to praising your paychex providing overlords and their little red books.

[Christopher Sidor]

Well no different than feeding little ones melamine laced milk. By the way do mothers in PRC still go outside of China to buy milk or milk products for their infants?

No different? Did you miss the part about how millions more Indian babies die? Is "millions" not different enough for you?

Obviously the melamine laced milk did not register on your consciousness. But that is what one gets, when one believes in the so called wisdom of the elite over the masses, or how some have the divine right to rule.

Can you please enlighten us on this source of millions more Indian babies dies? Wonder how that would compare with the number of people killed under CPC till date which was more than those killed by the Imperial Japanese in its entire so called occupation of China. Even those millions dead were not enough, and people still defend the rule of CPC and the existence of PRC.

There is a symptom called Stockholm syndrome, i.e. Trauma bonding, in which the victim chooses to remain loyal to the abuser. This is especially true of those of those who are emotionally weak. Sometimes this bonding is due to a violent incident or during intense life-death condition when the length of time spent with the abuser is long. When this bonding happens the abused tends to justify and see in a positive light everything what the abuser does and perpetrates. Those who defend CPC rule are by far the most common to exhibit this tendency.

[Rishirishi]

well, it is no use us debating which system is more superior...
just let the truth talks ,ok?

if in 10 years, CHinese per capita GDP surpasses 20K USD and reaches "first world level" so called, you will own me a aire ticket to India.otherwise I will own you a air ticket to CHina,ok??

I do not think there is even a remote chance that dictatorship like China will work in the long run. Think about it, how many first world countries are dictatorships? Either china will have to slowly impliment democratic features or it will colapse.
As far as India goes, its main failure was to adopt a socialistic type of economy up to the end of 80,s. Only in the 90's did the country start the slow progress towards market economy. China was much faster, mainly becase of overseas chinease who could kickstart the export boom. Even today India is much better in using its capital efficiently. It manages much more growth from a smaller pool of investments.
But things are changing fast in India. up until now, Indians were more concerned with ethnicity, then economy. Today that is changing, very fast.

[Varoon Shekhar]

Political repression, even less severe political repression of the kind China has displayed in past decades, cannot be justified by any leap, by referring to higher infant mortality rates in India or sub-Saharan Africa. Any dictator anywhere can brainwash people under his thumb by justifying his tyrannical ways, using some condition or other in a distant land. Hitler could do it, Idi Amin could do it, Kim Jong Ill could, Ayotollah Khomeni could etc.

If 'venting' and 'cheap talk' is so harmless and inconsequential, why not allow it? Probably because it's not 'harmless' from the perspective of the dictator in question.

[SBajwa]

by Liu
scary?? why, you are being peeped by yankee's NSA too.

in fact, the global internent is being monitored by USA's NSA,,with the cooperation of Google,CIsco and other USA's internent tycoon. NSA's monitoring is not different from Chinese hotel's

to Chinese lucky, Chinese internent infrastructures are provided by CHinese tycoons such as Huawei ,which troubles NSA's peeping more at least.

Internet was developer by US military and they are using it to monitor everything only option is to not use the Internet!!

[SBajwa]

China's economic model is to tie up with terrorists at whatever cost (ethics, murders, forceful conversions, etc do not matter).

[Liu]

China's economic model is to tie up with terrorists at whatever cost (ethics, murders, forceful conversions, etc do not matter).

if you country had its own internet tycoon like Huawei and errison, then you could fix the backdoors designed by Cisco .

[Liu]

well, it is no use us debating which system is more superior...
just let the truth talks ,ok?

if in 10 years, CHinese per capita GDP surpasses 20K USD and reaches "first world level" so called, you will own me a aire ticket to India.otherwise I will own you a air ticket to CHina,ok??

I do not think there is even a remote chance that dictatorship like China will work in the long run. Think about it, how many first world countries are dictatorships? Either china will have to slowly impliment democratic features or it will colapse.
As far as India goes, its main failure was to adopt a socialistic type of economy up to the end of 80,s. Only in the 90's did the country start the slow progress towards market economy. China was much faster, mainly becase of overseas chinease who could kickstart the export boom. Even today India is much better in using its capital efficiently. It manages much more growth from a smaller pool of investments.
But things are changing fast in India. up until now, Indians were more concerned with ethnicity, then economy. Today that is changing, very fast.

if metriced not by per capita nominal GDP,but by other indicators such as life expectacy,medic care,per capita electricity consumption,per capita duarable sale,per capita auto sale,infrastructure accomodation,food,and so son, the real life quality in many areas in l CHina is already level with Taiwan,HOngkong and S.kroea already,which is called by "first world " by you.

however, rich areas in CHina is just 10 years ahead of most poorer areas in inland CHina at most ....

I can not find any reason why "poorer" CHina in 10 years can not be as rich as "richer" CHina today

for example
I worked in Shenzhen 10 years ago, and now I work in a tier 3 city in inland CHina,unknown to most Indians.
I do believe that the life quality and income here today is quite similar with that in Shenzhen 10 year ago.

in 10 years , the per nominal capita GDP here will easily surpass 10K USD, although here now is one of poorest prefectures in CHina and its per capita nominal GDP is only 1/2 of Chinese nationalwide one.

[Liu]

I just now bought one MIui3 cellphone ,at the price of 1750RMB.
http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a2 ... 6431:27772

it costs me 1750RMB, only about 50% of Samsumg S5 or 40% of Iphone5 but it not only looks quite cool,but also performances better than Samsumg S5 and Iphone5
it just proves one thing: S5 and Iphone 5 are over priced .
Samsumg will be asskicked as Nokia ,if the situation keeps on.

BTW,
as the VIP of CHina mobile , I will be gifted one Iphone5 or S5 every in 2 months by CHina mobile,but I would rather keep using the Miui3,because:
1. I would rather keeping using andriod,insteading of studying apple's new system;
2. I feel Samsumg cellphone with cheap plastic shell looks quite ugly and low-end. Minu3 looks much cooler.

[Christopher Sidor]

if metriced not by per capita nominal GDP,but by other indicators such as life expectacy,medic care,per capita electricity consumption,per capita duarable sale,per capita auto sale,infrastructure accomodation,food,and so son, the real life quality in many areas in l CHina is already level with Taiwan,HOngkong and S.kroea already,which is called by "first world " by you.

however, rich areas in CHina is just 10 years ahead of most poorer areas in inland CHina at most ....

I can not find any reason why "poorer" CHina in 10 years can not be as rich as "richer" CHina today

for example
I worked in Shenzhen 10 years ago, and now I work in a tier 3 city in inland CHina,unknown to most Indians.
I do believe that the life quality and income here today is quite similar with that in Shenzhen 10 year ago.

in 10 years , the per nominal capita GDP here will easily surpass 10K USD, although here now is one of poorest prefectures in CHina and its per capita nominal GDP is only 1/2 of Chinese nationalwide one.

Past is not a precedence for the future. In the past PRC developed because of access to the north Atlantic market and off course being the sweat shop of the world. But PRC's youth bulge is over. Its working age population is going to decline. Just as Japan discovered that despite having the best infrastructure and one of the worlds best efficiencies in terms of energy, once its youth bulge got over the gig was up. What has happened is a 15 year long stagnation with an economy which does not grow and a debt burden of more than 200%.

US is growing again, but it is a CAPEX driven growth. It is unlikely to lead to a consumption binge like we saw during the Bush Junior's Era. Worse there is talk of shifting some manufacturing back to North Atlantic region due to falling prices of energy, thanks to shale gas+heavy oil revolution. This is coupled with a China+1 strategy which most of the companies are following. I had pointed out earlier about the demand destruction which will impact PRC the most.

[Liu]

if metriced not by per capita nominal GDP,but by other indicators such as life expectacy,medic care,per capita electricity consumption,per capita duarable sale,per capita auto sale,infrastructure accomodation,food,and so son, the real life quality in many areas in l CHina is already level with Taiwan,HOngkong and S.kroea already,which is called by "first world " by you.

however, rich areas in CHina is just 10 years ahead of most poorer areas in inland CHina at most ....

I can not find any reason why "poorer" CHina in 10 years can not be as rich as "richer" CHina today

for example
I worked in Shenzhen 10 years ago, and now I work in a tier 3 city in inland CHina,unknown to most Indians.
I do believe that the life quality and income here today is quite similar with that in Shenzhen 10 year ago.

in 10 years , the per nominal capita GDP here will easily surpass 10K USD, although here now is one of poorest prefectures in CHina and its per capita nominal GDP is only 1/2 of Chinese nationalwide one.

Past is not a precedence for the future. In the past PRC developed because of access to the north Atlantic market and off course being the sweat shop of the world. But PRC's youth bulge is over. Its working age population is going to decline. Just as Japan discovered that despite having the best infrastructure and one of the worlds best efficiencies in terms of energy, once its youth bulge got over the gig was up. What has happened is a 15 year long stagnation with an economy which does not grow and a debt burden of more than 200%.

US is growing again, but it is a CAPEX driven growth. It is unlikely to lead to a consumption binge like we saw during the Bush Junior's Era. Worse there is talk of shifting some manufacturing back to North Atlantic region due to falling prices of energy, thanks to shale gas+heavy oil revolution. This is coupled with a China+1 strategy which most of the companies are following. I had pointed out earlier about the demand destruction which will impact PRC the most.

1.Chinese needn't west fund any more.China has too much fund and 4 trillion forex is a burden. . instead, CHina is a fund-exporter.

2. west market indeed helped China accumulate the seed fund for the industrilazaiton of CHina. but now CHina does not rely on foreign market as you think ,because , PRC itself is now a huge market. Chinese buy more autos ,household durables ,electricity,houses and almost all products than USA ,in fact.

in the past, "everything was big in USA"
Now, "everything is big in CHina".
whoever is the winner of CHinese market, it is the winner of world market.
Alibaba is Chinese largest E-commerce company,so it is also the global largest E-commerce company ,more larger than E-bay+Amazon
ICBC is Chinese largest bank, so it is also the gobal largest bank;
Huawei win Chinese market ,so it is asskick Erisson and Cisco;

3. urbanizaiton will drive the high growth of CHina.
still almost 50% of Chinese, that is 600-700M CHinese, live in rural area, which is more than the whole EU.
most of those 600-700 Chinese are moving into Chinese urban areas, so they need more houses, road,electricty,household durbales,and autos.
morever, those 600-700 Chinese's salary is growing,and is enough to afford houses and electricty and household durbales..
i
4. in 1960s-1970s,,urbanization of Japan was finished .

[Rishirishi]

Well India just voted in a very pro development government. Let us see what they can do.

I have been going to China since 94 (Shenzen) when the country was very much like India. My feeling is that chinease are too efficient and overdo it. The one child policy has lead to some serious problems. My frined has a daughter and both himself and his wife are singe children. So their daughter now is the single child among 4 grandparents and 2 parents. Its not healthy at all.

Likewise they have overstimulated the growth and China is in for a very hard landing. Expect a 30% correction and major turmoil for the leaders (who are very corrupt). Having said that the leaders have pulled hundreds of millions out of powerty, put food on the table, built (in my opinion) the greatest infrastructure ever. over 10 000Km of highspeed rail, impressive Hiway, ports, power supply, airports, ports, cities etc. Even if the economy contracts by 30%, even if the leaders steal vast ammounts. I think it is still impressive. The problem is the unthankfull public may not.

[Liu]

Well India just voted in a very pro development government. Let us see what they can do.

I have been going to China since 94 (Shenzen) when the country was very much like India. My feeling is that chinease are too efficient and overdo it. The one child policy has lead to some serious problems. My frined has a daughter and both himself and his wife are singe children. So their daughter now is the single child among 4 grandparents and 2 parents. Its not healthy at all.

Likewise they have overstimulated the growth and China is in for a very hard landing. Expect a 30% correction and major turmoil for the leaders (who are very corrupt). Having said that the leaders have pulled hundreds of millions out of powerty, put food on the table, built (in my opinion) the greatest infrastructure ever. over 10 000Km of highspeed rail, impressive Hiway, ports, power supply, airports, ports, cities etc. Even if the economy contracts by 30%, even if the leaders steal vast ammounts. I think it is still impressive. The problem is the unthankfull public may not.

I am afraid that Modi can not birng many change to India, because India PM is caged by vote politics.

the development of India needs more land for industriazlation and infrastructure, less bureaucracy, less illteratcy and more pro-business laws of labour protection ,but modi can do nothing to change them.


1. can modi aquire enough land for industry zone and infrastucture-upgrading? I am afraid not.
when China labour cost was poor , land cost was also extreme low(10-20 years ago according to area) in China, Chinese government could aquire lots of low-cost land.
can modi does as CHinese govenrment did? NO. land cost in india is still too high ,although labour cost is quite low in india.
now, with labout cost growing, the land-cost growing much in CHina too. but CHinese government is rich enough to o pay huge compensation for land-aquiring and every household land-owners usually can get millions of RMB or several apartments for compensaiton.
Can modi pay such huge land compensation as Chinese government does now? no. because India government is not as rich as CHinese one.

2. can modi bring better public education( junior school and mid-school educaiton).
India pay too much attention to elite education in university but little attention to public education.
but most quality workers are trained by public education,instead of university educaiton.
that is why india has decent university but illteracy rate is still too high.
that is why india has may low-cost labour,but have only a few quality and disciplined workers.

3.can modi bring more po-business labour laws.
the current labour laws in india does't allow industry enteprise to dismiss labour easily, which increase employing cost quite high.
that is why india labour cost is low but employing cost is high.

4. india-style bureaucracy and corruption.
the largest corruption in india is "bureaucracy".
in China, if you do not provide any bribe, Chinese offiials might not help you much warmly ,but they usually will stop you and still get you business according to the routine.
. if CHinese official pocekt you money, they usually provide "One-stop service" and get you business done in days quite efficently.

however, in india, if you don't provide bribe, the only help india officials provide is not to stop or harm your business. even after india officials pocket you moeny ,"one-stop service" is still just a wish.
.