India-US Strategic News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 May 2014 09:34

Amber G. wrote:
putnanja wrote:Did US consult India before appointing her ambassador? Strange to appoint ambassador when there is no govt in Delhi
There is a government in Delhi. (In democracy like India, Transition take place orderly but there is always a government)

MMS govt has already resigned, they submitted the papers to the president. Technically, there is no proper government in Delhi yet. And for a country which is trying to improve relations with the incoming government, it would make sense to talk to the new dispensation and sound them out, rather than a government which is out of the door.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 May 2014 09:41

MMS was asked to continue till modi takes oath.

There is a proper government and cabinet in place. It is headed by MMS.

Modi hasnt taken the oath of secrecy as PM. Hence if you observe instead of IB directly reporting to him, a retired director was sounded out to ease the transition.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 May 2014 09:55

TSJones wrote: Don't underestimate her. From reviewing her wiki bio she appears to be quite good at immersion into the host culture. If she is in India for more than a few months she'll start picking up Hindi and try to be conversant in it. She's probably a natural linguist. The USSD wouldn't send her unless they thought she had the skills to trouble shoot.

if bama had confidence in her, she wouldnt be set up as temporary. That simply shows their cluelessness.

No need to attribute chankianness what can be attributed to ineptitude.

the fact is that bsh and bama with their christian demagogy have messed up their indian foreign policy and are trying to pull their hands from fire.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 May 2014 09:58

For all we know, NaMo or one of his aides might have been consulted or informed through informal means and got assent for the appointment. Otherwise ambassador Stephens would have a very shot stay in India.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 May 2014 10:00

I don't think bush was clueless Blackwill was not bad though he was no Moynihan either.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 May 2014 10:13

matrimc wrote:For all we know, NaMo or one of his aides might have been consulted or informed through informal means and got assent for the appointment. Otherwise ambassador Stephens would have a very shot stay in India.

doubt Namo would be foolish enough to express his views completely especially when he was in full campaign mode, when her temporary appointment took place.

At best it would have been Namo's seventh additional secretary to a massa pasand journalist, saying "definitely definitely" (jaroor jaroor) and then forget that he even said that.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 May 2014 10:15

matrimc wrote:I don't think bush was clueless Blackwill was not bad though he was no Moynihan either.

You should read why Modi was targeted by Bsh.

He was trying to ingratiate himself with the christian fundamentalists.

Denying Modi was pure unadultered christian demogagy which bama continued with an increased zest, they are now clueless to get themselves out of that hole they dug.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 23 May 2014 10:29

Landslide Modi Vote Gives India a Chance to Rival China

Langley Intelligence Group Network | 5-22-14

The election of Narendra Modi as prime minister of India is a development of immense significance for the country, for Asia and for the world. Modi’s landslide victory and absolute majority in India’s lower house are likely to push the Subcontinent out of development backwaters and into a future of rapid economic change and far greater weight in global affairs.

The election represents the end of a long era of political dominance by the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, the Congress Party and socialist policies. Thus India is poised to take full advantage of its strengths and to fulfill the potential that has so far escaped the country’s leadership.

BACKGROUND

Since gaining independence from Britain in 1947, India has been a model democracy with a disappointing economy. Socialist policies and a stifling bureaucracy have stunted India’s economic growth, especially when compared to its great Asian rival, China, since the 1970s-era reforms of Deng Xiaoping.

India is poised now to surpass a rapidly aging China in population and, probably, in economic importance beyond the region. Modi’s election brings an end to decades of political stagnation built on postcolonial politics doomed to fail over time by virtue of relying on the past for its legitimacy. That political force is spent, suggesting myriad ways in which a new, outward- and forward-looking India can prosper.

The crushing defeat of the Congress Party was due largely to popular fatigue with recycled politics. With the end of Congress Party dominance comes the end of Soviet-style planned-economy thinking and the fear of foreign investment that implies. The area where Modi has built has political base, Gujarat, offers plenty of examples of Indian success abroad through engagement and emigration. Entrepreneurship runs deep there.

Narendra Modi has been governor of Gujarat state for 13 years. During that time his low-tax, pro-market policies have lifted Gujarat to the No. 1 position among Indian states in economic growth, employment and exports. Per capita income is the highest in the country, and Gujarat accounts for one-fourth of Indian exports. Modi has lowered taxes and reduced the number of state government officials while cutting red tape and welcoming foreign investment.

He is known also for strong Hindu nationalism, as is his Indian People’s Party (BJP). It not clear how many of his voters were influenced by his record in Gujarat and how many by his pro-Hindu, anti-Muslim reputation. Because of reports that he

did not react promptly to restore order during the 2002 anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat early in his administration, he was been denied entry to the United States in 2005.

Looking abroad, India has fought three wars with Pakistan, which it won, and one with China, which it lost along with some territory in the Himalayas. It has one long-standing international dispute, dating from independence — the status of Kashmir and Jammu. Other than the Kashmir conflict and frontier claims against China, India is free from serious international disputes. Both conflicts are dormant but could flare up at any time, particularly if an unstable Pakistan decides to divert attention from domestic problems by creating incidents in Kashmir.

ANALYSIS

There is every reason to believe that Modi will move aggressively to implement on the national level the same pro-growth, pro-market policies that were so successful in Gujarat. Having an absolute majority in the Lok Sabha, India’s lower house of parliament, will greatly facilitate enactment of those measures.

India is a very young country demographically. That is likely to give Modi the political cover he needs to diminish the power of the social welfare state and to promote real economic growth through trade and entrepreneurship. Above all, that message is what Indian voters likely sought when they delivered Modi to office in a landslide vote.

The unfortunate neglect of Indian brainpower, innovation and business acumen during the long dominance of the Congress Party will be ended by Modi, who has promised to emphasize science and technology in his policy mix.

The Modi administration also is likely to strengthen ties with Israel, matching similar moves by China. India for years has had excellent relations with Israel, a digital oasis surrounded by an analog desert, and has purchased Israeli defense equipment.

Modi’s anti-Muslim stance is unlikely to negatively affect relations with China or Russia, which have Muslim problems of their own. Modi is likely to try to resolve border disputes with China, but improvement of relations with Pakistan, much less a resolution of the Kashmir conflict, looks less likely. A surprise is still possible there given the fact that Modi cannot be accused of selling out Indian interests.

On the military front, there is no reason to believe he will not continue the expansion of India’s armed forces started by the previous government. Indian dominance over South Asia will become even more solid as a consequence.

In more general terms, Modi can be expected to reach out to other Asian powers — China, Russia and Japan — while maintaining good relations with Europe. The United States this week lifted the visa ban imposed on Modi, and President Barack Obama invited him to visit Washington. A constructive relationship between them could yield dividends for both countries, as India presents an attractive market for U.S. exports and investment.

The Indian giant is awakening from a long sleep. With luck, pragmatism will prevail.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 23 May 2014 10:49

^^^

Errr Russia and China both have Muslims population problems threatening breakway regions. Ruskies in fact have the Tatar problem beyond their boundaries in Ukraine. It is a good base for greater cooperationg. The author was being politically correct and bitten by secular bug with reference to this part.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 23 May 2014 11:20

The perils of Asia’s nationalist power game
by Philip Stephens, ft.com

May 22nd 2014 7:12 PM

Modi completes a quartet of combative leaders in the most powerful nations of the region

India has a new prime minister; and each of Asia’s four most powerful nations is now led by a combative nationalist. The multilateralist assumptions of the postwar order are giving way to a return to great power competition. Nationalism is on the march, and nowhere more so than in the rising east.

On the face of it, Narendra Modi’s victory in India’s election had little connection with geopolitics. Mr Modi’s pitch was to a nation tired of the incompetence and corruption of the Congress party. His promise was faster economic growth and rising living standards. His ambitions, though, reach beyond the domestic: India should be China’s match on the global stage.

Mr Modi’s Hindu nationalism fits the temper of the region. China’s President Xi Jinping wants to restore the Middle Kingdom to past pre-eminence. Deng Xiaoping’s caution has been replaced by demands for due deference to Chinese power.

In Toyko, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s economic programme is driven by a resolve to rebuild Japan’s capacity to stand up to Beijing. Vladimir Putin, the fourth of Asia’s nationalist horsemen, has shown with his military intervention in Ukraine Russia’s contempt for a co-operative international order.

Mr Abe hopes Tokyo will be the first port of call when Mr Modi steps out overseas. The Indian prime minister-elect, officials say, shares Mr Abe’s temperament and goals. The talk is of a grand strategic bargain. Japan has the technology and investment to speed India’s economic development. Delhi would be a powerful ally in containing China. Each has territorial quarrels with Beijing – Japan in the East China Sea and India on its northern border. Both worry about Chinese naval power in the Indian Ocean.

The Sino-Japanese relationship could hardly get worse. Beijing is pressing its claims to the disputed Senkaku (in Chinese, Diaoyu) islands in the East China Sea. Mr Abe has struck a revisionist pose by visiting Tokyo’s Yasukuni shrine, where class-A war criminals are honoured alongside fallen soldiers. Barack Obama’s US administration, bound to Japan in the region’s pivotal security alliance, finds itself trying to deter Beijing while restraining Tokyo.
After confronting the west, Mr Putin is turning east. He was in Beijing this week to clinch a big gas supply deal. The contract is intended as a signal to western critics that the Kremlin has alternative markets for its hydrocarbons and a powerful friend in the rising world.

For the moment the arrangement suits Mr Xi. China needs the gas, and Russia can be a convenient ally at the UN. Beijing, like Moscow, sees the present international system as skewed in favour of the west. The partnership, though, is unequal. China is scornful of Russia’s failing economy and of the social and demographic trends dragging the country into decline. Mr Putin’s role, then, is that of the useful idiot.

Mr Abe thinks the Kremlin can be tempted to hedge its bets. Russia is nervous of China’s growing presence in a fast-depopulating Siberia. Over time, Chinese citizens may become the dominant ethnic group in the Russian far east. How long before Beijing applies to Chinese citizens on Russian soil the doctrine of extraterritoriality Mr Putin has deployed in Ukraine? Mr Abe, who has been sotto voce in his criticism of Russian annexation of Crimea, calculates it is time to “normalise” Russo-Japanese relations.

This turning kaleidoscope of rivalries and realignments is further complicated by a swirl of collisions involving smaller players. China is in angry dispute with Vietnam and the Philippines over competing claims in the South China Sea. South Korea should be a natural ally of Japan, but Mr Abe’s reluctance to acknowledge the sins of Japan’s imperial past nudges Seoul towards accommodation with Beijing. China accuses Washington of turning neighbours against it. More likely, China’s heavy-handedness is driving them into America’s arms.

One consequence of this is a rapid build-up of military forces across the region. China and Russia have set double-digit increases in their defence budgets. The Indian military has secured a similar rise, and intends to lay first claim on the fruits of Mr Modi’s promised economic revival.

For his part, Mr Abe wants to reinterpret Japan’s postwar constitution to ease the constraints on its capacity to deploy force. At a glance, his proposed changes seem modest enough but, set in the context of the times, they speak to a strategy of building a network of security alliances against China.

Stir in the toxic legacy of disputed history and the absence of international mechanisms to settle the border spats, and the region looks ever more combustible. For now, the US holds the ring. American power may be waning, but it still outguns everyone else. The question uppermost in the minds of every Asian leader is for how long?

Watching Washington’s retreat from the Middle East, many of its allies have doubts about the longevity of the US security guarantee. Japanese and South Korean officials say they need the US in the short to medium term, but must make their own plans for the long term. China’s strategy looks pretty clear – to push the US out of the western Pacific and claim tribute from its neighbours. It will push and prod to test Washington’s resolve.
What’s wrong with nationalism, a friend in Tokyo asked me the other day? Well, there is much to be said for patriotism. As for nationalism, the answer is found in the bloodied pages of European history. I doubt, though, that Asia’s four horsemen have taken the time to read them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2014 11:28

As long as white supremacist,"crusaders" rule the US establishment,Indo-US relations will be rocky.India ,especially under Mr.Modi will never kowtow to the US under any circumstances.Even snake-oil Surrender Singh had his inability to go the whole hog batting for the US due to party pressure. But the US if it is smart will stop the BS about a "strategic relationship" to counter China and work in the commercial sphere,where good relations between US and Indian corporate houses will usher in better relations keeping the US establishment and supremacists at bay.
BRICS and the SCO are going to get more powerful by the day.The sh*t will really hit the fan if one day China and Japan reconcile their differences ,unlikely for now,leaving the US holding the toilet paper. China also has to "smell the chai".Its own supremacists of Zhongnanhai will also have to curb their Middle Kingdom mentality.That will only force India,Japan,Vietnam and others to club together .What if Japan also goes nuclear? It can do so within months and my prediction is that if China maintains its mil. ambitions will certainly do so.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 May 2014 11:46

FT wrote wrote:...Asia’s four horsemen have taken the time to read them.

So beople in FT are feeling Modi is one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse who portend the doom of Western Civilization hain ji

?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2014 12:26

Exactly,the "Crusader", neo-con,mentality hasn't left the minds of the yanqui tribes. So India and Modi are one of the apocalyptic 4.Nice bogey-men to target next for drone attacks,et al! Perhaps the long range ICBM acquisition needs to be fast tracked by the GOM (Govt. of Modi)

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 23 May 2014 14:28

I dont think NaMo follows him back.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 May 2014 17:27

The four horsemen reference in FT refers to the apocalypse of the single world power and not in a Biblical sense. While there is a need to reassert India's independence given the submission of previous government and the condescending attitude of US, vast majority of US policy makers are not crusaders in any sense of the term. US has come a long way from its previous policies in cold war era. Their current focus is to contain China and prolong US status as the world power and ensure the dominance of US dollar and US economic institutions globally. Reading a crusader motive to recent US dispensations is far removed from reality. Of course there will always be the EJ lobby in US which we can handle effectively if enough attention is paid. I am actually concerned with the quality of discussion in this thread. Are we sure we threw out our cold-war tinted glasses?

India has a lot to gain from US and the good thing is we have multiple options - We can at the same time foster close bonds with all these powers - China, Japan and US for which the later two will be more strategic and the former will primarily be economic. We have after all dexterously handled close relationship with both Iran and Israel (though in recent years we have neglected Iran partnership). I fail to see how it is in India's interest to continue to damage relations with US when US seems to recognize their mistakes and want to move along. Some of the arguments in BRF are tiring to say the least.

China has trillions of dollars waiting to be invested. We can open up mega non strategic infrastructure projects such as commercial ports, railways and roadways to Chinese and Japanese investment which would be a win-win. India needs close collaboration and partnership with US in several areas especially in fight against terrorism, hi-tech industry, defense collaboration, etc.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2014 18:19

Sorry, but I have to take issue with some of those assumptions.

1. The assumption that "the US" is not driven by prejudices and EJ motives, is simply wrong.
"The US" based on a professional poll of voters on a given issue would perhaps, I agree, vote along those priorities: maintain and improve standard of living, get richer and happier, have people around the world love the US, be seen to be fair and compassionate, be praised as tall/muscular/curvy/pretty/trim/slim etc.

2. But that is not who has been making decisions and devising tactics day-to-day for the US, and that takes a bit more thought and perception than the sweeping assumptions of don't-worry-be-happy.

3. "when the US has recognized its mistakes and wants to move on". Wrong. There has been no "recognition of mistakes" nor any willingess to step back from atrocious arrogance. Where is the "recognition of mistakes" in the Khobragade extortion scam? Where is the "recognition of mistakes" in the arbitrary visa denial to an elected democratic leader against whom there was NO pending criminal charge in any court, not to mention any evidence of wrongdoing? Where is the evidence that those responsible for these atrocious abuses of power in the US have been removed from their positions of power? Please show me.

What is seen instead is the arrogant expectation that everyone else will "move on" regardless of these atrocities. That they are all too stupid to remember the clear, unambiguous demonstrations that those who make decisions in the US administration are sh1theads. And move on to suffer the next arrogance from said sh1theads.

This is where the GOI has failed. They should NOT have given up on the Khobragade affair, just on the vague HOPE that there would be no more persecutions and extortions of Indian diplomats. A terrible error on the part of GOI: far from achieving the desired result, it just conveys that the US extortionist aggressors were right, and precedent has been set that they can act with impunity.

There was no public exposure of the decades-long deliberate tax fraud by the US embassy and its employees w.r.t. the Embassy School. This was a huge error. A very public prosecution with sentence imposed, was the right course there. The President of India might then have issued some pardon, or agreed to extradite the criminals to the US to face charges, to get them out of Indian jails.

The visa denial was very clearly because of pressure from the EJ lobby. Consider that this was a clear violation of the Constitutional Separation of Church From State. What business does a Commission appointed by the US Congress, being so subordinate to the Evangelist lobby? The result is of course a global humiliation of the USA, but ten years of damage has been done. Mr. Modi has a clear case of libel and damage to pursue against the US government employees/ agencies that violated the US Constitution, should he choose to do that, but he is too much of an honorable gentleman to worry about this. Anyway, Satyam Eva Jayate, and has.

I think it is childish to pursue trivial insults and hold grudges. By the same token, the US should not hold grudges, when India pursues fair retribution and recompense for blatant wrongs.

If "the US" is indeed as fair and mature as the prior postor assumes, well, let's see fair justice being visited on the criminals of the State Department and the USCIRF who have violated the Constitution that they swore to uphold, and brought the nation into disrepute. If "the US" does not do that, then the GOI is being only as Smart and Mature as all those Injun tribes of a past period that also sought to "forget, forgive and move on" every time their rights were violated, and they "moved on" all the way to extinction or reservations. That is the precedent to understand and remember.

I understand that the postor, and at least 3 or 4 others, feel discomfort to see the truth expressed. That happens.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 May 2014 18:42

^^^^^

@schinnas

The opening salvos of the brand new poster, is certainly, both interesting and indeed revealing.

Welcome on board. (and do keep a weather eye cocked upwards for passing drones!

)

I never, ever, thought that I would one day say this but we need the US like we need rabies.

At best, a very wary arms length and a very long bargepole.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 May 2014 19:47

x posted from the AAP thread.

Indo-US Relations: Kamal Mitra Chenoy gives false testimony to US Commission on Religious Freedom

Preface

In its commitment to a better future for India, Hinduism, & public discourse, the researchers at IndiaFacts have dug up something explosive from the past. Something that has significant bearing on how Prime Minister Narendra Modi should fashion his policy towards the United States of America. In short, this concerns a treasonous and anti-national testimony against Narendra Modi delivered on foreign soil by an Indian citizen.

The name of this Indian citizen is Kamal Mitra Chenoy, a former professor on political theory and international relations at the Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU), Delhi. Kamal Mitra Chenoy was also a central committee member of the Communist Party of India (CPI). He is now a prominent member of the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) founded and headed by Arvind Kejriwal, who became the chief minister of Delhi earlier this year and resigned after just 49 days in office.

On 10 June 2002, Kamal Mitra Chenoy was in the US. The researchers at IndiaFacts were unable to obtain any information whether Kamal Mitra Chenoy mentioned to the concerned Indian authorities as to the actual reason for visiting the US. But the fact is that he was definitely present in the US on 10 June 2002.

On Monday, 10 June 2002, Kamal Mitra Chenoy was in Room 1302, Longworth House Office Building,
Washington, D.C. He was on Panel 1 whose topic title was: Events on the Ground in Gujarat. This panel was the first panel of the United States Commission On International Religious Freedom (USCIRF), which had conducted a hearing, whose full title reads thus:

UNITED STATES COMMISSION ON INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

HEARING ON COMMUNAL VIOLENCE IN GUJARAT, INDIA

AND THE U.S. RESPONSE

The hearing began at 9:12 A.M. and Kamal Mitra Chenoy was present at the appointed time.

On the same Panel 1 was also present Najid Hussain, a research scientist in Marine Studies at the University of Delaware. Najid Hussain is also the son-in-law of the deceased and former Member of Parliament Ehsan Jaffri from Gujarat.

The hearing was chaired by the former Commissioner of the USCIRF Ms. Felice D. Gaer who now directs the Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights of the American Jewish Committee.

At the time of the hearing, Kamal Mitra Chenoy was profiled by the USCIRF and the Hearing as “Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Deli.” (spelling of “Delhi” as “Deli” reproduced here as is in that report IndiaFacts has accessed).
Prof Kamal A. Mitra ChenoyVerbatim testimony of Kamal Mitra Chenoy to the USCIRF

The first testimony before the USCIRF was by Mr. Hussain followed by Kamal Mitra Chenoy.

The following is the unedited version of Kamal Mitra Chenoy’s testimony before the USCIRF’s hearing chaired by Ms. Felice Gaer. No formatting has been changed.

CHAIRMAN GAER: Mr. Chenoy, would you present your testimony, please.

MR. CHENOY: Madam Chairperson, members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen, Gujarat has been a state polarized by religious sectarianism, or what we call communalism, for quite some time. There were riots even prior to the partition of India and the creation of India and Pakistan, but the current phase really starts from 1969 when the earlier form of the dominant party in the ruling coalition departed, and the party of the earlier form departed, Jana Sangh had been involved in fomenting the riots. And the riot immediately prior to the events of February, March, and April is also instructive because the fanatics attacked Christians in Gujarat, especially around Christmas 1998 and January 1999. And particularly in the tribal district of Dangs. Christian churches, places of worship, were burnt down. Christians were attacked, priests were beaten up, and the police, the FIR arrest department, and the civilian bureaucracy was involved. In fact, in February 1999, the Director General of Police Intelligence of Gujarat sent out a secret circular dated 2nd February, 1999, where he asked for a census of all Christians and also asked that who–which are the foreign countries that encourage these Christian communities, how much money do they get, and then wanted to know what is the type of trickery being used by the Christian missionaries for their defilement activities, that is, for conversion. And this was an officially-sponsored campaign by the Gujarat government, which actually got approval from Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee when our prime minister went to Dangs for the first time in January 1999 where he said that there should be a national debate on conversion, even though the right to practice and propagate religion is a fundamental right under the Indian Constitution. So it is not that the attacks, though they have been by far the most brutal against Muslims, are not also against attacks on minorities in general.

Now, about this whole area of retaliatory violence, the incidents in Godhra that is with the Sabarmati Express followed a series of incidents on that train where the Hindu volunteers mistreated and humiliated Muslim men and women traveling by that train towards Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh, or coming back towards Ahmedabad. And these instances were reported in the press. In early morning of the 27th February, the train was almost five hours late, and at the railway station an altercation took place over the nonpayment by the Hindu volunteers for the tea and snacks they had had. And then there was an attempt to abduct a young teenaged Muslim girl, Sophia, who was waiting for another train. They were not able to take her into the train, but the rumor of a Muslim girl being abducted reached the slums next to the railway station, and the attack that started barely a kilometer away from the railway station when the train stopped with the pulling of the alarm chain was based on these rumors and attention at the railway station.

Now, there was a mob of around 2,000 “Ganchi” Muslims from that slum, and about 1,500 Hindu volunteers on the train, so it was actually a kind of religious sectarian riot, not only an attack by one side. But, tragically, the Muslims had firebombs, the Indian versions of Molotov cocktails. And one coach, and only one coach seemed to have been singled out for attack. And in that coach first 58 people were killed and the 59th died in hospital, mainly women and children.

Now, the Chief Minister of Gujarat Narendra Modi went to the site and said this has been planned by the ISI, that is, Pakistani Intelligence, and another minister, State Minister for Health Ashok Bhatt said Godhra has a notorious reputation, and went on to say, “We suspect that many Pakistanis live here illegally.” The Home Minister Gordhan Zadafia, who’s also a senior Vishwa Hindu Parishad activist, said, “The bogie burning is a terrorist act similar to the attack on the American Center in Kolkata.

The culprits in both cases are the same.” In other words, Pakistani-backed terrorists. And then he gave a dire threat, and I’m quoting, “We will teach a lesson to those who have done this. No one will be spared, and we will make sure that the forces behind this act will never dare repeat it.” Then the chief minister insisted that the bodies of the killed from the Godhra area should be transported back to Ahmedabad. They reached there the early morning of the next day. This was broadcast over the radio. Frenzied mobs gathered and had religious rites, and there were cries for retaliation and revenge.

Before that, on the 27th February, late evening, the chief minister had a meeting with top civil and police officials where they were told that the Vishwa Hindu Parishad had called for a bandh. A “bandh” is a kind of total strike where even vehicle traffic is stopped, and the VHP called for it with the ruling party, the BJP, supporting it. And in this meeting the chief minister told those officials that they were not to intervene. They were not to do anything which, and I quote, “hurt Hindu sentiments.”

Najid HussainSo then, now I want to just make a point about what Mr. Hussain has already pointed out, too. You see the kind of targeting that was done, these people had precise lists of Muslim establishments, institutions, residences, workshops, shrines. A number of the commercial establishments that were attacked, there were minority Muslim shareholders. After the earlier riots, many of these bodies had non-Muslim names, including hotels, restaurants, workshops and so forth, yet these were marked out with precision and attacked. Cooking gas was in short supply in Ahmedabad for weeks before the 28th February.

Yet these rioters carried thousands of cylinders of cooking gas which were used to explode buildings and burn people. They were led in buses, including luxury buses, in trucks, because cooking gas cylinders are heavy; you can’t just carry them. So this was a very systematically organized attack. And according to information through the National Human Rights Commission, Minister of State for Home Affairs Gordhan Zadafia flashed a victory sign while passing by mobs on the 28th of February and the 1st of March.

Minister for Health Ashok Bhatt was involved. The police control rooms in the capital, Gandhinagar and in the city of Ahmedabad were occupied by Civil Supplies Minister I.K. Jadeja and by Minister Ashok Bhatt.

All this, by the way, is illegal, and the real tragedy of the situation is that for the first time, violence also spread extensively to rural areas, and the tribal people, the Adivasi were involved (which, by the way, was what Dangs and the attack on Christians three years earlier was all about, to bring in a religious fanatic polarization amongst the tribals). And the related organizations of the BJP, that is the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal and others, had been working in these tribal areas, the economic situation was also extreme for the tribals. It was their fourth year of drought. So these people were all brought in, and you had this most brutal killing.

Now, on the state complicity, I would also like to submit that under Indian law the district magistrates, who are the local civil administration heads, have the right to call out the Army if there is a civil disturbance. No district magistrate did that. It is incumbent on the police to protect citizens, and if they think a cognizable crime is being committed, they have the right to fire.

Yet in the bulk of the incidents on 28th February and 1st March, the firing was on Muslims who were defending themselves. So in the list of the dead from police firing, there’s a disproportionate amount of Muslims. Then after the incidents of violence where curfew was imposed, overwhelmingly curfew was imposed on Muslim areas. Then, in the relief camps, there is limited government support, and there are 150,000 people there, limited government support in terms of foodstuffs. But it does not suffice with the population. The biggest camp at Shah Alam, which at one stage had 12,000 inmates, had just 22 toilets and less than that places where people can bathe. And now with the rains coming, the monsoon, there is no physical shelter for those people to stay. There is no security provided to these camps in terms of police, and, actually, the majority of Muslims, given their experience, do not trust the police; they would prefer the Army.

Now, the most serious thing in this is that it is not only that the local administration and the local politicians are involved, but even the union home minister, a couple of days after Godhra, said that this is an attack planned by Pakistani Intelligence. Now, if you say that an attack is planned by Pakistani Intelligence, you are implying that the Muslims are acting as Pakistani agents. Pakistan is a traditional enemy of India, so, in other words, the Muslims represent the enemy, and this has been part of the religious fanatic propaganda by the Sangh Parivar from the beginning–that Pakistanis operate in India through Indian Muslims. So Indian Muslims actually have extra-national loyalties and cannot be trusted.

Then even after–and this is why the Commission by appeal must take this seriously–even after the riots were over, Intelligence Bureau reports by the police have been reported in the press as saying that the chief minister is going to rural areas and still think that there is one community which is responsible for all of this. And I would conclude with two submissions:

No. 1: This is going to go on and may spread beyond Gujarat because it works for political mobilization of the kind of Hindu fanaticism that the BJP practices. So please do not think that this is over and this may not spread to other parts of India.

No. 2: and I end with this: This is likely to lead to extremism amongst the affected parties, not only in Gujarat but in the troubled state of Kashmir. The incident of Gujarat has been seen to show that India is not really a secular state, and Muslims and minorities are oppressed, which will further fuel extremism in Kashmir. And we now have reports that Al-Qaeda and others have moved into the Kashmir Valley. So two nuclear-weapon arms states which are in a military confrontation, and there Gujarat has profound implications, not only for the future of Indian multiculture democracy, but for relations between Pakistan and India, and for peace in the entire subcontinent. So really Gujarat is exceedingly important. Thank you once again for this opportunity. – IndiaFacts, 22 May 2014

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 May 2014 20:03

chetak wrote:^^^^^

@schinnas

The opening salvos of the brand new poster, is certainly, both interesting and indeed revealing.

Welcome on board. (and do keep a weather eye cocked upwards for passing drones! )

I never, ever, thought that I would one day say this but we need the US like we need rabies.

At best, a very wary arms length and a very long bargepole.

Repeat after me. Transactional.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2014 20:11

Philip wrote:Exactly,the "Crusader", neo-con,mentality hasn't left the minds of the yanqui tribes. So India and Modi are one of the apocalyptic 4.Nice bogey-men to target next for drone attacks,et al! Perhaps the long range ICBM acquisition needs to be fast tracked by the GOM (Govt. of Modi)

Inst it rich that descendants of European savages usurp Middle Eastern Khyamat meme and quote it in secular post modern world about a Hindu leader!!!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 May 2014 21:00

schinnas wrote: I am actually concerned with the quality of discussion in this thread. Makes one wonder if active BRF members have a good handle on current US thinking. Are we sure we threw out our cold-war tinted glasses?

schinnas - you have committed a blunder here by including the above rhetorical sentences. They were unnecessary. You simply question the quality of people who post rather than making any coherent argument. That means that you had nothing better to say and you are angry enough with what people are saying to take a swipe at them. In the process you have devalued your own viewpoint a great deal. Whatever the level of idiocy pf people on this forum - most of us are good at picking up pointless rhetoric and angry, purposeless thrashing about.

You are simply posting your viewpoint and trying to make that seem more credible by this nonsensical "concern" about the quality of discussion on here. Why the flunk would you be "concerned" with the quality of discussion on some internet forum? Since when has this concern been happening? Are you suggesting that you have some special handle on US thinking when you "wonder" if BRF members have a good handle? Cold war tinted glasses? Could you please explain. There are a lot of dumb Indians from India on here such as myself who don't know what cold war tinted glasses are.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 23 May 2014 21:27

How the mighty have fallen on hard times. Indian Commies/leftists pleading with Americans to stop "Hindu fascists".

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 May 2014 21:36

UlanBatori wrote: 3. "when the US has recognized its mistakes and wants to move on". Wrong. There has been no "recognition of mistakes" nor any willingess to step back from atrocious arrogance. Where is the "recognition of mistakes" in the Khobragade extortion scam? Where is the "recognition of mistakes" in the arbitrary visa denial to an elected democratic leader against whom there was NO pending criminal charge in any court, not to mention any evidence of wrongdoing? Where is the evidence that those responsible for these atrocious abuses of power in the US have been removed from their positions of power? Please show me.

What is seen instead is the arrogant expectation that everyone else will "move on" regardless of these atrocities. That they are all too stupid to remember the clear, unambiguous demonstrations that those who make decisions in the US administration are sh1theads. And move on to suffer the next arrogance from said sh1theads.

This is where the GOI has failed. They should NOT have given up on the Khobragade affair, just on the vague HOPE that there would be no more persecutions and extortions of Indian diplomats. A terrible error on the part of GOI: far from achieving the desired result, it just conveys that the US extortionist aggressors were right, and precedent has been set that they can act with impunity.

There was no public exposure of the decades-long deliberate tax fraud by the US embassy and its employees w.r.t. the Embassy School. This was a huge error. A very public prosecution with sentence imposed, was the right course there. The President of India might then have issued some pardon, or agreed to extradite the criminals to the US to face charges, to get them out of Indian jails.

You have a point there. I am not saying we should cave in and not take any action against US embassy school for tax fraud. Our law should take its own course. I have in my past posts been clear about US insulting Modi at the behest of EJ lobby, Indian traitors in USA and Indian MPs in India. I wish government of India took strong objection to US passing judgments on Modi and state of religious tolerance in India. Many Indian MPs behaved like traitors and petitioned US government as if US President was their President to not issue visa to Modi. At the same time, in the face of increasing arrogance of China which is doing everything to strategically encircle India, I do not want us to behave like an ostrich and refuse to deal with US. Only the strong get respected in International community. When members of Indian parliament petition US President to "punish" another elected leader of India, I wouldn't fault US too much that they took India as a little spineless nation whose uncultured leaders need to be disciplined. If some other country in our neighborhood begs us to pass judgement on one of their leaders, we might have done the same mistake too.

If "the US" is indeed as fair and mature as the prior postor assumes, well, let's see fair justice being visited on the criminals of the State Department and the USCIRF who have violated the Constitution that they swore to uphold, and brought the nation into disrepute. If "the US" does not do that, then the GOI is being only as Smart and Mature as all those Injun tribes of a past period that also sought to "forget, forgive and move on" every time their rights were violated, and they "moved on" all the way to extinction or reservations. That is the precedent to understand and remember.

I understand that the postor, and at least 3 or 4 others, feel discomfort to see the truth expressed. That happens.

Where do I say US is fair and mature? If you are going to assume on my behalf, hope you do better so I could at least agree with you

My view is clear. India is a great Nation and a civilization and it stands for something - clear experiential perspective of Supreme Reality and modeling of Life and all its aspects either as a means of expressing that Reality or as a means of attaining that Reality. Secondly India stands as a living force in the earthly consciousness representing unity in diversity and that there are multiple paths to the same Reality. What Indian civilization stands for is a material reality in the world which does not materially change even if a moron were to rule India and make dumb decisions. Same way, US as a civilization has a soul and it stands for something. Despite all the destruction various narrow minded US leaders have brought on the world, US as a civilization stands for individual freedom, and expression of indomitable courageous spirit that exemplify the search for Truth that India has but in an externalized manner. The fact that US had presidents like Nixon who actively condoned massacres of minorities in Bangaladesh does not change that reality. I am taking about the essence of these civilizations. As such, I see them as natural friends. The challenge in front of us right now is how to take it forward given the past blunders by US government and Indian government (acting in a subservient manner and dragging down the relationship).

Even otherwise, I see increasing aggressiveness and belligerence of China as both a strategic threat to India. We need a carefully balanced relationship with US (and Japan and Russia) to protect ourselves.. including increased trade with China to buffer our relations. When we discuss strategic relationship between two civilizations such as India and US (despite its short history, US represents Western civilization) we can do better to take a bigger picture. That is not to say that we should take insults and play dead. No... but only the weak and incompetent keep complaining all the time. If India is insulted, reply in kind - keep your head high, but then <b> move on </b> keeping the bigger picture in mind. Neither responding assertively nor being able to move on is a sign of the weak and impotent. I don't want India to be in such a state. Take decisive action against the US school that knowingly did tax violations, give cold shoulder to Obama for some time, but have a plan to take the relationship forward.

I appreciate that Modi-ji is playing cool to US overtures to get him to visit US. I do wish he visits Japan and China first and forges a strong economic partnership with these countries. At the same time, I hope he takes Indo-US relationship forward. There is potential for a civilization partnership here despite what the EJ lobby has done and what some ugly arrogant US leaders have done (and can do in the future). As you rightly said, Satyam Eva Jayate.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 23 May 2014 21:58

I don't think we should conflate European civilization with American civilization. India does not have a problem with European nations and vice versa. Only the Anglo-American component (USA, UK and to a certain extent Can and Aus) have had issues. The Anglo-Americans want to trade with us just like the Chinese. They also want to prop up Pak militarily. So beyond a point there is no wholesome meeting of interests. In addition the Anglo-Americans have issues about religion which the Chinese don't have. So I don't see any advantage of choosing one over the other. As for Indian MPs complaining to the Americans - they belong to a particular ideology - first they took directions from the SU, then the Chinese CCP and now they have deemed to involve the Americans. They are like the proverbial dog's tail which cannot be straightened.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 23 May 2014 22:16

Anmol,

Narendra Modi is the Prime Minister of India. John Kerry is the Secretary of State of the US. They are not on the same level. I think that is why PM Modi did not tweet to John Kerry and he is not following him back for the same reason. Prime Minister - Designate, it seems is following the diplomatic protocol which is in the direct contrast to out the door Prime Minister, Sri Man Mohan Singh.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 May 2014 22:51

shiv wrote:
schinnas wrote: I am actually concerned with the quality of discussion in this thread. Makes one wonder if active BRF members have a good handle on current US thinking. Are we sure we threw out our cold-war tinted glasses?
schinnas - you have committed a blunder here by including the above rhetorical sentences. They were unnecessary. You simply question the quality of people who post rather than making any coherent argument. That means that you had nothing better to say and you are angry enough with what people are saying to take a swipe at them. In the process you have devalued your own viewpoint a great deal. Whatever the level of idiocy pf people on this forum - most of us are good at picking up pointless rhetoric and angry, purposeless thrashing about.

You are simply posting your viewpoint and trying to make that seem more credible by this nonsensical "concern" about the quality of discussion on here. Why the flunk would you be "concerned" with the quality of discussion on some internet forum? Since when has this concern been happening? Are you suggesting that you have some special handle on US thinking when you "wonder" if BRF members have a good handle? Cold war tinted glasses? Could you please explain. There are a lot of dumb Indians from India on here such as myself who don't know what cold war tinted glasses are.

Shiv-ji, agree with you in part. I edited my post to remove that uncalled for comment about BRF members, which I shouldn't have made and which is contrary to how I value BRF and its members. I am enriched by most discussions in BRF than the other way around. My apologies.

..........
Now, let me explain my comment about cold war tinted glasses. There is a world view that each country should strive to make the world its mirror image to enhance its position and long term success and that is considered one of the central strategic objectives. Ex: Saudi Arabia would want the whole world to follow Wahabi Sunni-ism and prostrate to Mecca... China of the past wanted the world to follow Maoism and wanted other nations to look up to it (now it wants to establish itself as an imperial empire stealing raw materials from Africa and resurrect its Middle Kingdom Empire and be the primal force on earth). Amongst the cold war philosophies, communism is now dead and capitalism is on its death bed and will soon be surpassed by something that will incorporate the merits of both models but be beyond both. In my limited philosophical understanding, capitalism can be mapped to existentialism (of Ayn Rand school) and existentialism is surpassed now by an integral world-view / philosophy (of Sri Aurobindo, Ken Wilber, et al), wherein each approach is acknowledged and given its place and a integral higher view is evolved that encompasses and harmonizes each different approach. I do expect that in a future society capitalistic concepts will co-exist with some socialist controls and democracy with meritorious oligarchy and even disciplined dictatorship where warranted in some fringe cases.

In the cold war days, US and USSR both propagated their world view and in the process played several dirtiest of the dirty games - some of which haunt rest of the world now (ex: spread of jehadi-ism). India, during cold war times was not fully aligned to any party overtly, despite its socialist leanings and stronger strategic relations with USSR. At the same time, we did have our own economic world view thought highly influenced by Gandhi - one that was based on harmonious existence with earth and its resources, sustainability, local sourcing, living within ones means and a non-consumerist self sufficiency at as granular a level as possible. Instead of taking forward our worldview and trying to influence the world with it, which would have been the game of an active player, we played a totally passive game complaining about the evil Uncle Sam all the time without doing anything to take our position forward. I saw a similar passive complaining now in BRF regarding our relationship to US. If US behaved arrogantly and insulted us, reply in kind but don't hold the entire spectrum of relationships hostage indefinitely. We do need to take the relationship forward based on <b> our </b> perspectives and guiding principles. In short, "cold war tinted glasses" for India = taking a passive complaining attitude and not moving along.

That doesn't mean we ride an idealistic high horse. We could follow an integral approach. There is room for strictly transnational mode in relationships, which we should follow in terms of trade, there is room for co=operation based on security objectives such as defeat of islamic terrorism and there is room for idealistic civilizational relationship. Each aspect when in balance would complement the other despite irritants that are bound to happen from time to time. While we need to stand our ground when we need to, we should also move forward and avoid self defeating conclusions such as relationship with US should be 100% transnational or we should shun US like rabies / plague. Instead of complaining about how US condescending looks at us heathens, we could give scholarships to hundreds of US humanities students to study Indian philosophy in India (would requires us to first build such Indic institutions guided by India's wisdom and realizations). That would be taking the relationship forward. With new leadership in place that is not afraid to think big and act bold, it is time to take our relationship with US from its present state (that of one between a manipulative condescending bully and a timid submissive confused victim) to that of one between two great civilizations as equals. Whatever we have done so far - calling out the underlying imperialistic, racist, colonialist mindset of US and West, calling out for fair and just responses to provocations such as Kobragade episode and Modi-ji's visa have its value, but just doing it would make our policy passive and reactive. We need to do those, but also do lot more which would be pro-active, and derive from our vision of who we are and what we represent in the world.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 23 May 2014 23:03

America is too young to be called a civilization. It is a land belonging to someone that was occupied by someone else. The population is largely non-indigenous. However, it has great qualities that we should admire and learn from. Why this China is the evil empire and USA pre-eminent civilization thing. Unless some of us are grateful that they allowed Indians to migrate to their clean neighborhoods. Our interaction with both USA and China should be only transactional for the simple reason they have been the biggest sponsors of Pakistan and continue to do so. Khobragade and Modi visa are merely side shows.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 May 2014 23:22

Supratik wrote:America is too young to be called a civilization. It is a land belonging to someone that was occupied by someone else. The population is largely non-indigenous. However, it has great qualities that we should admire and learn from. Why this China is the evil empire and USA pre-eminent civilization thing. Unless some of us are grateful that they allowed Indians to migrate to their clean neighborhoods. Our interaction with both USA and China should be only transactional for the simple reason they have been the biggest sponsors of Pakistan and continue to do so. Khobragade and Modi visa are merely side shows.

Respectfully disagree. US is an extension of European civilization and US embodies the European spirit of adventurism, quest for individual freedom, liberty and a search for Truth - an inquisitiveness to understand physical nature by scientific means. Its other cultural influences are unchecked consumerism and unchecked capitalism and what is called "western progressive" world view (where it gets enough support from West, especially France. In several aspects US as a civilization has the most impact on rest of the world in the past 100 years. Just merely taking its few hundred years of continental history ignores its civilizational continuity from the time of the Greeks. To a large extent US civilization = Western civilization.

Regarding China - there is a lack of moral underpinning in Chinese civilization which is well debated in BRF archives. Transactional model of relationship probably would work best with China - but as a civilization, it shares little with India other than antiquity. One can say that Indian civilization has a search for inner Truth at its base and Western civilization has a search for external Truth as its foundation. However, Chinese civilization is a search for greatness. It is the biggest imperial power waiting for its time.

Besides it is China which occupies our land and threatens our water resources and not USA. In terms of arming Pak, while in the past US propped us Pak with anti-India intentions, I doubt that is the case any more. US no more views Pakistan as a reliable strategic partner, but seems to believes that needs Pak for its various games in Af-Pak region, including to keep tabs on its nukes and avoid it falling into hands of jihadis. China, on the other hand has a consistent, purely anti-India aspect to its relationship with Pakistan.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 23 May 2014 23:22

schinnas wrote:
Even otherwise, I see increasing aggressiveness and belligerence of China as both a strategic threat to India.

I have a noticed a trend amongst America lovers on BRF and elsewhere. They always want to use the negativity surrounding Indo China relations for their own cynical benefits. Their best strategy for a pliant India is to keep trumpeting how China poses a threat to India and how America will be our saviour (Ofcourse we saw how that worked for Georgia and Ukraine). Now in my opinion if the only objective of a country to country relationship is to put a common enemy down, then that relationship is simply not worth it. Which is the case with India US relations.

And anyways US is doing far more greater damage to India on a daily basis than China will ever manage. From encouraging Evangelical organizations to supporting dubious NGOs/Individuals in order to exploit our existing faultlines to actively manufacturing Identity movements to weaken our national consciousness, US is doing it all to destroy our Civilization. Infact these are all acts of warfare which are being imposed on us by America.

America is far worse compared to Chinese. Chinese are atleast pragmatic. One can work with them. Americans are ideological. It is impossible to rely on America

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 23 May 2014 23:25

Garshan that s just playing with fire.Remember that they (China) tried to cross into India just last year. Engage but never trust them or we will have a repat of the 60's war.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 23 May 2014 23:34

Recently I came across an article on Internet. Come to think of it Anglo Americans along with their Proxies in India are executing each and every point mentioned in this article.

How to Bring Down a Nation

If you were intent on bringing down a powerful rival whose philosophy, as originally founded, was strong, independent and entirely opposite from your own—a country that you would not want to confront militarily—how would you go about it? The answer is simple; orchestrate the society’s destruction from within.

Although possibly taking longer than a military victory and requiring great patience, the damage would be just as effective if not more so. When you destroy from within, you do it by using that country’s own people, no blood is spilled in combat and the physical infrastructure is left intact.

In any country, there are but a few key areas that determine how the citizens mature, live, and develop their beliefs. These are the focal points that must be attacked. In his book, On War, Clausewitz referred to this concept of identifying and then focusing on select points as attacking the center of gravity.

The center of gravity is that key element, if controlled or destroyed, would most hurt your opponent and is the critical factor in achieving your objective. In this case, when taking control of or destroying a country from within, the key is to attack and control the mind of the inhabitants—you must shape the way people view life and the values upon which their life is based. Shape the mind and you control their direction. Control their direction and you can lead them down a pathway to hell.

The centers of gravity I would shape in orchestrating a country’s downfall from within are its perception of truth, its future generations, the political philosophy, its sense of nationalism and of course, the economy.

To shape truth, control the media: Most people absorb what they know about life from the major media centers these days. The media paints the picture for all to see. If that picture is constantly distorted, lies become accepted as truth, i.e. tell enough lies repeatedly and soon those lies are accepted as fact. Spin and concoct, distort and influence using the public platforms such as television, radio and print and you can influence, sway and control the mind of the vast majority of its population in any area you choose. This subversive influence includes pitting one group against another in order to foment internal discord as well as ridiculing, discrediting and challenging moral principles and national values in order to destroy any hint of a strong spiritual foundation or allegiance to a unique national culture. This is a much easier task if many in your target audience have become lazy, ill-educated, ill-informed, unthinking and apathetic.

To shape future generations, control the schools: Incrementally indoctrinate the children with principles that are sympathetic to your philosophy. Make future generations weak in mind, body and spirit. Avoid teaching children the basic facts about their own history, constitution or rights. Teach them that natural aggression is wrong and docile submission is right. Teach them that any basis of a moral foundation, like the principles of religion, is a weakness to be avoided in the name of freedom and also redefine the concept of patriotism to support your views. Teach them to cast off old values and traditions in the interest and name of sensitivity—after all, we wouldn’t want to offend anyone with our old fashioned or traditional beliefs now would we? And guns, guns are wicked, dangerous, and socially unacceptable—an evil that must be eradicated from society—for the good of the children of course.

To shape the political philosophy, infiltrate the government: Whenever and wherever possible place those sympathetic to your philosophy into office at all levels—the higher, the better—so they can sway the direction of the country within every function of government, promising solutions, handouts and benefits for all. In such a way you can tilt legislation toward incrementally increasing the control of and dependency on government—a government that you are shaping. Concurrently, if you can pack the courts with appointed judges who will not hold you accountable to the law and its constitution, you can act with virtual impunity. Infiltration at the highest levels can also be employed to weaken the military through budget cuts, unwarranted restrictions and over commitment, degrading both force morale and effectiveness. A country without a strong military is like a bull without horns or a tiger without claws—defenseless and vulnerable.

To shape the sense of nationalism, dilute the culture and the language: A strong society has at its foundation a unique culture and a common language. Simply put, it is the culture and language which ultimately defines and unites a nation. If you can manipulate these two critical elements through legislative action and social pressure, you can weaken the foundation of any country. How? Introduce and eventually force the acceptance of a multi-cultural concept and refuse to accept a common tongue as the official language. In short, prevent cultural assimilation and undermine any sense of nationalism. Encourage and orchestrate a mosaic society rather than a melting pot and you will eventually mortally wound the national fabric.

To shape the economy, spend, spend, spend and tax, tax, tax: A country with a strong economy is financially independent and its people unlikely to look toward the government for much of anything. If free people don’t depend on their government, that government has limited sway over them. By legislating large sums from the public treasury you accomplish two important goals. First you create dependents of the public and private business that are now subject to conditions, rules and regulations you dictate. Secondly, you are putting that country into unsustainable debt, reducing the value of the currency while undermining its economy. And of course, to support all this spending, you now make the case that the people must “invest” in all these government provided “benefits” so you tax them relentlessly stealing money from their pockets and independence from their lives. Eventually, if you tax and spend enough, you financially oppress the people to the point of serfdom and overload their economic structure to the point of collapse.

Through patient manipulation and clever coordination of these few centers of gravity, you can, in time, weave the downfall of even the most powerful nation, using its own citizens and systems to orchestrate the destruction.

The irony is that in just a few generations, the indoctrinated masses will be convinced this trail which has been shaped for them is truly the enlightened path for mankind and they will unwittingly look forward to the trip! You have thus taken control of a powerful rival without firing a shot or spilling a drop of blood.

The above actions are far worse than any territorial grab envisaged by China. China is growing old. We can reconquer our territory at a time of our choosing on our terms. Chinese might have the watch but we have the time. But if Anglo American snakes manage to destroy our civilization from within, then it will be extremely long time before we manage to rise again.

The struggle between US and India(or for that matter between US and any other country) is a classic zero sum game. For India to rise, US has to go down and vice versa.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 May 2014 23:44

Supratik wrote:How the mighty have fallen on hard times. Indian Commies/leftists pleading with Americans to stop "Hindu fascists".

CAG= Coalition Of Azamgarhi Gangs

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 23 May 2014 23:47

+ Sen. John Kerry was responsible for the strip & cavity search custodial sexual assault of Indian diplomat Ms. Devyani. He is not going to get any mind share from Indian P.M. Modi.

Karan Dixit wrote:Anmol,
Narendra Modi is the Prime Minister of India. John Kerry is the Secretary of State of the US. They are not on the same level. I think that is why PM Modi did not tweet to John Kerry and he is not following him back for the same reason. Prime Minister - Designate, it seems is following the diplomatic protocol which is in the direct contrast to out the door Prime Minister, Sri Man Mohan Singh.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 May 2014 23:53

darshhan wrote:Recently I came across an article on Internet. Come to think of it Anglo Americans along with their Proxies in India are executing each and every point mentioned in this article.

How to Bring Down a Nation
To shape truth, control the media: Checked NDTV , CNN_IBN, TOI, HINDU etc
To shape future generations, control the schools: Pseudo Seculars, Deracinated Termites
To shape the political philosophy, infiltrate the government: NAC, Antony Factors
To shape the sense of nationalism, dilute the culture and the language: EJism etc
To shape the economy, spend, spend, spend and tax, tax, tax: Maino MMS

Lets see how Modi PUNCH-Sheel Deal with this using Kasun Nerre Kai Malik.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 23 May 2014 23:56

Garshan,

Culturally Brits did lot of damage to India including making English as the language of choice of educated Indians and destroying our Indic school systems. We are yet to come out of that cultural subjugation. US for sure follows an imperialistic approach, especially of the economic kind. Sure its Ford foundations are used to culturally sublimate people and manipulate countries based on their fault lines. While I am not ignorant of those dangers, I think US following such policies is not consistent with what US as a civilization stands for. We need to work on US and work with US to bring them to their sense. Ignoring US would not be the right thing to do. It is said that Americans will arrive at the right approach after exhausting all the wrong ones. We can actively seek to accelerate that while at the same time protecting ourselves against any manipulation.

While there is a strong overlap between Indian and Chinese traditions (deference for elders, valuing silence and inner peace, etc., ) I find something fundamental that is missing in Chinese which is their moral / idealistic underpinnings. It is very subtle but very dangerous in the longer term. While one can easily relate to a cultured Chinese as a person, as a civilization, they will easily run over someone if it serves their interests. There are not much ideological meeting points that ensure that they wouldn't run over India. On the other hand, while US and Americans might be difficult to deal with given their subtle superiority complex, ignorance, condescending attitude hidden behind a veil of political correctness, lack of patience and respect for different cultural values, I do believe that our civilizations do have some idealogical meeting point(s). Americans are more predictable than Chinese that way.

Discounting the language induced likes and dislikes, if one were to ask most Indians who have experience with both Americans and Chinese, one would instinctly choose Americans.

I am not anti-Chinese. We can have great amicable transactional partnership with them. I would say India should engage actively with China - make them our biggest trading partner and grow our trade relations 10x, even use relationship with Chinese to keep Americans from taking us for granted, but we shouldnt be under the illusion that Chinese are our civilizational soul mates.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 May 2014 00:00

One of the recent acts of warfare indulged in by US against India is the propping up and usage of Arvind Kejriwal led Aam Aadmi Party. The linkage between CIA tool Ford Foundation and Mr. Arvind Kejriwal is extremely well documented. And so is the damage that Arvind Kejriwal hopes to inflict on Bharat at the behest of CIA.

The point is that warfare in 21st century has highly evolved. No longer the war is fought just by using Tanks, ships and aircrafts. No longer wars are fought just for grabbing territory. Anglo Americans have taken the art of warfare to whole new level. They employ every tool and every tactic in order to destroy/corrode the soul of a country. Grabbing territory is too low ball and costly enterprise for them. Propaganda warfare using media stooges, Identity movements(Gay.Gender, caste etc), Exploting internal fault lines using Intelligence and special forces units highly adept at unconventional warfare, sowing anarchy using shady NGOs/political outfits, Promoting evangelical activity in order to create a fifth column in the perceived enemy country. America uses all these tactics and more. Since second world war they have been practicing these techniques and now they are employing them much more frequently in countries as diverse as India, Ukraine, Libya, Syria etc.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 24 May 2014 00:10

To support my theory of meeting point between US and Indian civilization, I do not consider the Judeo Christian values as the underpinning of US civilization. What represents US civilization is a passion for individual freedom and an inquisitive adventurous spirit with a quest for Truth via external means. In some ways, guilt inducing Christian mores are not fully consistent with this fundamental US spirit that seeks individual freedom. Thats the reason Christianity is on a decline in USA and there is strong fascination for Buddism and New Age philosophies and cults influenced by Hinduism / Indic thoughts. One can argue that rigid Christian notions are dying out in USA not because of any external influence but because of the questioning spirit of Americans themselves. The American elite have a lot of fascination for Indic thoughts that empower the Individual to pursue an experiential search for Truth without inducing feeling of guilt.

It is to this aspect of US spirit that we should speak to and aim our cultural relations at. The EJ lobby will look down upon heathen India and do its best to damage Indic society, but it is bound to die as it is inconsistent with native US civilizational spirt.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 May 2014 00:12

schinnas wrote:Garshan,

While I am not ignorant of those dangers, I think US following such policies is not consistent with what US as a civilization stands for. We need to work on US and work with US to bring them to their sense. Ignoring US would not be the right thing to do. It is said that Americans will arrive at the right approach after exhausting all the wrong ones. We can actively seek to accelerate that while at the same time protecting ourselves against any manipulation.

Schinnas, Refer to the bolded part. Less than 5 % of US population believes in US civilazational values as laid by their founding fathers. Or else Ron Paul would have been winning the US Presidential elections hands down. In that case US wouldn't have been the enemy of India. If Americans themselves do not believe in their civilizational values, why the hell should we base our decisions on the same?

schinnas wrote: Discounting the language induced likes and dislikes, if one were to ask most Indians who have experience with both Americans and Chinese, one would instinctly choose Americans.

That again is the product of Propaganda sponsored by American Interests.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 May 2014 00:28

schinnas wrote:To support my theory of meeting point between US and Indian civilization, I do not consider the Judeo Christian values as the underpinning of US civilization.

You might not but huge majority of Americans do. Till now there hasn't been a single US president from non Christian background. Please also check the lists of senators and secretaries since the formation of USA itself. Not even one percent of those would belong to Non Christian and Non Jewish backgrounds. Even black christians are present in extremely miniscule numbers. And I will not even talk about native Americans. You talk of individual freedom, but what about freedom of Native Americans. Or Freedom according to you is deserved only by white people.

schinnas wrote:What represents US civilization is a passion for individual freedom and an inquisitive adventurous spirit with a quest for Truth via external means.

Man that was true in 1870 and not in 2014. Even then it was true only for whiteys.

schinnas wrote:Thats the reason Christianity is on a decline in USA and there is strong fascination for Buddism and New Age philosophies and cults influenced by Hinduism / Indic thoughts. One can argue that rigid Christian notions are dying out in USA not because of any external influence but because of the questioning spirit of Americans themselves. The American elite have a lot of fascination for Indic thoughts that empower the Individual to pursue an experiential search for Truth without inducing feeling of guilt.

When the American Population is about 30% Indic (Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh), then I will stop perceiving US as an enemy. But 30% is minimum. As almost 4-5 states in India are Christian dominated, similarly I will also expect 4-5 states in US to be Hindu dominated. Only then India should consider US as a friend. By the way all the best for converting US population to Indic faiths. Your efforts will be much appreciated.

schinnas wrote:It is to this aspect of US spirit that we should speak to and aim our cultural relations at. The EJ lobby will look down upon heathen India and do its best to damage Indic society, but it is bound to die as it is inconsistent with native US civilizational spirt.

I agree. We should convert as many Americans to Indic faiths to improve relations between US and India which today is marked by enemity.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 May 2014 01:42

schinnas wrote:I fail to see how it is in India's interest to continue to damage relations with US when US seems to recognize their mistakes and want to move along.

(a) US does not recognize any of their "mistakes". Simply put, they were not "mistakes" but well thought-out strategy to kick India once more in the jewels.
(b) The moving along part is even funnier....you mean US wants to move along just like Pakistan wants to move along after triggering Kargil, sending jehadis to attack the Indian parliament and sending more jehadis to kill 200+ people in Mumbai? This oft-expressed sentiment of "moving on" on part of the perpetrator is quite touching.

schinnas wrote:To support my theory of meeting point between US and Indian civilization, I do not consider the Judeo Christian values as the underpinning of US civilization. What represents US civilization is a passion for individual freedom and an inquisitive adventurous spirit with a quest for Truth via external means. In some ways, guilt inducing Christian mores are not fully consistent with this fundamental US spirit that seeks individual freedom. Thats the reason Christianity is on a decline in USA and there is strong fascination for Buddism and New Age philosophies and cults influenced by Hinduism / Indic thoughts.

er...what?

US civilization == individual freedom and inquisitive adventurous spirit?

Individual freedom?? You mean ensuring individual freedom for Americans at all costs including ensuring subjugation of other people and supporting various tinpot dictators as per need?

Inquisitive adventurous spirit you say? You mean crass adventurism where entire countries get bombed to stone age in the name of exporting freedom followed by making big bucks from their "reconstruction".

Judeo-Christian values are not the underpinnings of the USA, you say? What are you smoking man? Perhaps the same potent stuff which is smoked by the handful of California communes and vegans who have a strong fascination for Buddhism and New Age philosophies.