India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 May 2014 07:53

Dudes on the forum, am I the only one who thinks that the khans have an army of drones to put across their views on BRF. like the 50 cent a post users from the PRC.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 25 May 2014 07:54

....
Let's see: what continent should we focus on for the next 4 years? spin the globe: Oirope? Naw! That ain't "diverse" enough. Africa? Naw, BO is already pouring $$B down the sewer there, and all he's getting for it is more Boko Haram and Somalian warlords. Antarctica? It's breaking up. South America? Nah! I cyaint speak Portuguese and them Brazilians are getting snooty. North America? Wait a minute, we are so close to it that it comes under the Dept of Homeland Security, not State.
That leaves: Australia? Nah! Not diverse enough. Which leaves ASIA!!

Oh, can I name one country in Asia? How about IndiaPakistan? Great! We're already owned by China, so that's fine. OK.

I mean, the way they decide is like: The SoS has said that we are going to focus on Asia. India is in Asia! So India QUALIFIES for this year's Attention Quota.
....

UBji, me thinks the selection is not that difficult (unless I'm missing a berry berry deep point u are making). World's last untapped reserve of billions of hungry consumers are in China and India. If you were top 100 MNC, you would personally call Clinton and give her marching order to FOCUS (and everything that comes with the focus)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 May 2014 08:14

Pratyush wrote:Dudes on the forum, am I the only one who thinks that the khans have an army of drones to put across their views on BRF. like the 50 cent a post users from the PRC.

They don't need to. They are better at PR than chipanda.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 May 2014 08:37

unless I'm missing a berry berry deep point u are making

My point is that all this focus-hocus is absurd. The US foreign policy establishment appears to be full of drones (of the Drones Club variety, not Predator variety) too lazy and incompetent to study each country in the world as a distinct entity, and determine the best course to have good relations with each. I for sure don't feel thrilled to hear that the US is going to "focus" on India because India is one of the countries in Asia, and Her EJness HC has declared that her focus is going to be on Asia.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 25 May 2014 08:38

darshhan wrote:
schinnas wrote:
Even otherwise, I see increasing aggressiveness and belligerence of China as both a strategic threat to India.
I have a noticed a trend amongst America lovers on BRF and elsewhere. They always want to use the negativity surrounding Indo China relations for their own cynical benefits. Their best strategy for a pliant India is to keep trumpeting how China poses a threat to India and how America will be our saviour (Ofcourse we saw how that worked for Georgia and Ukraine).

America is far worse compared to Chinese. Chinese are atleast pragmatic. One can work with them. Americans are ideological. It is impossible to rely on America

Darshan,

Was your name by any chance Jawahar Lal in your previous life ? No ? Nehru, perhaps ?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 May 2014 10:05

rsangram wrote: Darshan,

Was your name by any chance Jawahar Lal in your previous life ? No ? Nehru, perhaps ?

Rsangram ji, I do not keep track of my previous life. I am sorry, I will not be able to answer this question of yours.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 May 2014 10:16

UlanBatori wrote: The US foreign policy establishment appears to be full of drones (of the Drones Club variety, not Predator variety)

Not an accident as most of them were trained at Oxbridge to be extremely gracious to the natives. And even learn to pronounce ootacamand.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 May 2014 10:20

Cosmo_R wrote:I do. Weakness is provocative. Blood in the water and all

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130001

Cosmo ji good point. A hat tip to you sire.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 May 2014 10:25

udaym wrote: World's last untapped reserve of billions of hungry consumers are in China and India. If you were top 100 MNC, you would personally call Clinton and give her marching order to FOCUS (and everything that comes with the focus)

That coupled with evangelical - I mean literally not some bhusa bhusa azure evangelist or cloud evangelist - legions is a forceful driver.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 25 May 2014 12:54

US is expecting from others to forgot what injustice they did but still repeating that

- NaMo is only welcome to US as state of head but not in personal capacity.
- Our lady can visit as part of UN team but not in personal capacity.
- Pak is counter balance to India, when ever India is mentioned there is Pak in the same sentence and India = Pak

How we can forget when they are sticking to their points? So US is going to get an egg on their face.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 25 May 2014 13:15

Indian court drops charge against NYPD officer
by Associated Press, washingtonpost.com
November 30th -0001

NEW DELHI — A court in India’s capital has dropped a weapons charge against a New York City police officer and is allowing him to leave the country, his lawyer said Saturday.

Officer Manny Encarnacion was arrested in March while visiting his wife in New Delhi after Indian airport authorities discovered three bullets he had accidentally packed in his luggage. He had been out on bail since his arrest, but was barred from leaving India until the case was resolved.

Before leaving for India, Encarnacion went to a police firing range and put the bullets in a coat pocket, according to New York City police. He packed the coat for the trip, forgetting that the ammunition was there, the police said.

Encarnacion, 49, joined the NYPD in 2004 and is assigned to a precinct in Harlem.

His lawyer, Samarjit Pattnaik, said the court heard the case Friday. “All charges against the officer were quashed,” he said.

Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association President Patrick J. Lynch said, “We are pleased that police officer Encarnacion’s unfortunate ordeal has been resolved and that he’ll soon be returning home.”

Encarnacion’s arrest took place months after a diplomatic spat between the United States and India over the arrest and strip search of an Indian consular official for alleged visa fraud in New York. But Indian authorities say Encarnacion’s arrest had nothing to do with the spat.

Pattnaik said he would approach the court early next week to get Encarnacion’s passport released, and that the officer should be set to leave the country by the end of next week.

Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 25 May 2014 15:49

schinnas wrote:
1. GoI grants and support to Indic NGOs and movements regardless of religion (There are several Christian leaders who have incorporated the wisdom of Bharath or atleast fully appreciate wisdom and values of Bharath. Ex: http://www.ocoy.org/, http://www.vagamon.com/kurisumala/kurisumala.htm, ) .... Bharatanatyam etc.

OT. And just because they copied a few symbols of Bharatiyata, you assume that they changed over from an exclusive to an inclusive philosophy?

Many among the Dharmics have become aware of such acculturation strategy and have red-flagged it.

Check out Rajiv Malhotra's U-Turn theory (Appropriate->Digest->Excrete). This type of acculturation is deliberate and eventually leads to digestion. There is no change in their core philosophy.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 25 May 2014 18:21

darshhan wrote:
rsangram wrote: Darshan,

Was your name by any chance Jawahar Lal in your previous life ? No ? Nehru, perhaps ?
Rsangram ji, I do not keep track of my previous life. I am sorry, I will not be able to answer this question of yours.

Dont blame you. I would not want to keep track of my previous life either, if it was Jawahar Lal's.

No, just your assertions that China is better than the US and that "we can deal with the Chinese", reminds me of Nehru's over the top emotional investment in the Chinese. In your case, it is in the reverse. An over the top negative emotional investment in Massa.

"Massa is bad". "Massa is so bad that it puts Paki to shame". "No No, Massa is so bad that the Chinese are even better". "No No, the spinach my mom made me eat as a child was enormously more delicious than Massa". "No, No, I would rather make love to my dog's excrement than Massa". "No No, Massa is so bad, my dog would not want to go excrete on it". "Massa women are overweight, ignorant and of course, loose(no pun intended), not to mention racist." "Massa men, well the less said about them the better"."Massa lawyers are the worst in the world, the only thing even worst is Massa Medical System". "Oh, I forgot, Massa education system, particularly higher ed, thumbs down, all way down or maybe up Massa's you know where." "The only thing worse than Massa are those Indians in India who are the admirers of Massa who think Massa can do no wrong, if you dont count, of course, those Indians in Massa who are just so grateful that they have been allowed to come and live in clean, segregated Massa neigborhoods."

I get it. "Massa bad--India good"!

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 25 May 2014 18:39

...too lazy and incompetent to study each country in the world as a distinct entity, and determine the best course to have good relations with each. I for sure don't feel thrilled to hear that the US is going to "focus" on India because India is one of the countries in Asia, and Her EJness HC has declared that her focus is going to be on Asia.

How can it be "too lazy"?? When I compared the presence of their military to 50 years ago..all I see is expansion. Electronic surveillance can touch every single human being on the planet with modern electronic gadgets. Is that a sign of "incompetence"?? Now under the name of BK Halam, they are now in Nigeria.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 May 2014 18:49

It is both laziness and incompetence on the part of the STATE Department, whose supposed portfolio is diplomacy, not military action, nor intelligence ( ha!) gathering. Ordering an invasion is a poor substitute for patient, intelligent (I mean of the intelligent kind, not videotaping ppl in bedrooms kind) engagement and building trust and understanding. As the experience in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Syria, and soon, Nigeria, show.

I don't for a moment imagine that either the military or the intel-gathering depts are lazy or incompetent. Also, they DO get the "Best of the Best of the Best" both in sheer bravery and strength on the part of the soldiers, and smarts on the part of the ppl in the tech caves. And it shows.

Meanwhile, the vast expenditure on the State Dept. appears to be a waste of $$. They could install automatic visa machines next to the condom dispensers at airports and bus stations and close down the super-fortresses protecting Ambassador Paco and his cretins.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 25 May 2014 18:53

rsangram wrote: Dont blame you. I would not want to keep track of my previous life either, if it was Jawahar Lal's.

No, just your assertions that China is better than the US and that "we can deal with the Chinese", reminds me of Nehru's over the top emotional investment in the Chinese. In your case, it is in the reverse. An over the top negative emotional investment in Massa.

"Massa is bad". "Massa is so bad that it puts Paki to shame". "No No, Massa is so bad that the Chinese are even better". "No No, the spinach my mom made me eat as a child was enormously more delicious than Massa". "No, No, I would rather make love to my dog's excrement than Massa". "No No, Massa is so bad, my dog would not want to go excrete on it". "Massa women are overweight, ignorant and of course, loose(no pun intended), not to mention racist." "Massa men, well the less said about them the better"."Massa lawyers are the worst in the world, the only thing even worst is Massa Medical System". "Oh, I forgot, Massa education system, particularly higher ed, thumbs down, all way down or maybe up Massa's you know where." "The only thing worse than Massa are those Indians in India who are the admirers of Massa who think Massa can do no wrong, if you dont count, of course, those Indians in Massa who are just so grateful that they have been allowed to come and live in clean, segregated Massa neigborhoods."

I get it. "Massa bad--India good"!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 May 2014 19:28

Officer Manny Encarnacion was arrested in March while visiting his wife in New Delhi after Indian airport authorities discovered three bullets he had accidentally packed in his luggage. He had been out on bail since his arrest, but was barred from leaving India until the case was resolved.

Before leaving for India, Encarnacion went to a police firing range and put the bullets in a coat pocket, according to New York City police. He packed the coat for the trip, forgetting that the ammunition was there, the police said.

Encarnacion, 49, joined the NYPD in 2004 and is assigned to a precinct in Harlem.

His lawyer, Samarjit Pattnaik, said the court heard the case Friday. “All charges against the officer were quashed,” he said.

Ah! A clear, clear demonstration of how the American (At least Noo Yoik) Legal System is vastly superior to the SDRE Indian kangaroo courts.

1. American courts don't DROP charges. Either the Prosecutor drops charges, or the Court finds the defendant guilty (or in this case not guilty).

2. This Indian 'roo "Court" AND the prosecutors are obviously incompetent. Despite clear admitted proof of the Corpus Delicti and open-and-shut evidence, they apparently gave the "benefit of the doubt" to the defendant's convoluted claims.

3. They clearly could not frame the case properly. Here is how Preet Bharara's Office would have made its announcement to the News Media (first, of course) and the Court (last):

1. Yuwar Honner, this is a Serious Case of Deliberate Fraud, Concealment, and Conspiracy to Use a Weapon of Mass Destruction (WMD).

2. The Defendant did, with malice aforethought, visit the Police Range, where he proceeded to acquire several Weapons of Mass Destruction.

3. He then showed deliberate intent to conceal, by placing said WMD inside the pocket of a thick article of outerwear, which he then folded several times and concealed at the bottom of a suitcase.

4. The State submits that the use of a thick outerwear (a.k.a. Coat) is clear evidence of malicious intent: No one needs a Coat in India. A langoti would have been quite sufficient, consistent with the attire preferred by most American tourists.

5. Defendant then brought said suitcase to India, using unspecified means to get the WMD through the detection machines at a US airport. This indicates that he had accomplices at the US airport, both at baggage check-in, and at baggage loading checkpoints.

6. The plot was obviously extreme in its potential to kill and maim Americans. There were several items of WMD in Defendant's possession. Even one of those would have been sufficient to penetrate and destroy the tire of a large airliner, hereinafter referred to as Airliner of The First Part (ATFP) during the takeoff run with full fuel and passenger load from a major international airport. This would have caused said airliner to veer out of control, and impact another full airliner, hereinafter referred to as Airliner of the Second Part (ATSP) waiting to cross the runway.

7. The State presents evidence that the US Secretary of State (hereinafter referred to as SoS) was scheduled to visit India during that period. Had said SoS chosen to visit at this time, the airliner carrying him and his entourage of 180 people, could have been on the ground as ATSP waiting to cross said runway. Impact of ATFP with ATSP would have caused a major fire and the death of nearly a thousand people, in addition to causing numerous deaths on the Delhi roads as the US Embassy SUVs were driven by DUI drivers towards said airport.

8. Thus, Yuwar Honner, this is a case of deliberate, premeditated Attempted Mass Murder Using Weapons of Mass Destruction, and should be punished in the most severe manner as appropriate. We submit that Defendant is guilty on all 6 counts of Attempted Mass Murder, Mayhem, 181 counts of Denial of Rights, 180 counts of Assault with Intent to Kill Against a Federal Official, and 12 counts of Concealment of Weapons at an Airport. He should be sentenced to a minimum of 20 years on each count, adding up to 6893 years to be served consecutively without parole.

10-4, good buddies, dem turd whirlders never learn, do they? Ramond Davis yesterday, Bubba BulletCoat today.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 25 May 2014 19:48

**deleted**

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 25 May 2014 19:54

rsangram, what is the exact thing that is bothering you? Why is it so hard for you understand the resentment amongst the members here?

It is abundantly clear that India wanted NM to be a PM. It is a proven fact now and no more a wishful thinking.*
America actively tried to sabotage any chances of election of NM as PM. US senator is on record confirming that.*
India is a sovereign democratic country and US claims to be a friend but covertly tried to sabotage the aspirations of majority.*
It is proven beyond doubt that America has interests in Asian and middle eastern countries keep fighting with each other so the west derives benefit out of it. Even if you ignore the world, take a look at India and Pakistan...they have always tried to foment the fights between two countries while paying lip service to talks and peace. BTW that is one of the main reason why US wants to get itself involved in India Pakistan peace initiatives...they can find ways to scuttle any such initiative. In American terminology "being in driver seat"

People see it and react to it. You apparently don't like it. What do you expect from Indians in general and BRFites on this forum?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 May 2014 22:04

India cannot just "move on" now. Psychology 101 is that bad behavior cannot be rewarded, even if it is not punished. US' bad behavior is that it armed Pakistan for decades and created instability in the region. Only after due process of atonement and readjustments can healthy relations begin. America has to respect India, India has to respect America. Now this mutual respect does not exist. Hence India cannot just "move on".

India can spell a series of measures, that are time bound, that America should demonstrate to convince India of America's sincerity. This is better for India and America.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 May 2014 22:41

Obama slips into Afghanistan to visit US troops

The most powerful man in the world and defender of FREEDOOMMM!!!...sneaks in like a thief?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 25 May 2014 22:45

Raja Bose wrote:Obama slips into Afghanistan to visit US troops

The most powerful man in the world and defender of FREEDOOMMM!!!...sneaks in like a thief?

Afghanistan is jihadi central right now. Probably made it easier for secret service and other agencies to ensure his safety.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 May 2014 23:02

You mean the USA lost in AfPak just like the ill-equipped Rooskies?!

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 25 May 2014 23:33

Raja Bose wrote:You mean the USA lost in AfPak just like the ill-equipped Rooskies?!

Lost would mean they had to have gained before. At best they stitched together a "government" full of drug lords and others out to make a quick buck. The US as we know it is in the terminal stage of cancer. They have finished themselves with their fiscal policies and monetary easing. It's time for India to step up to the plate and bring about positive change in the neighborhood.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 May 2014 23:39

^^For that Indian leadership needs gonads. Hopefully NaMo can provide that in spades. I don't see any other hope. Congis have shown their true worth and Kejru is only good for trade union dharnas and entertainment.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 26 May 2014 01:01

Shankk wrote:rsangram, what is the exact thing that is bothering you? Why is it so hard for you understand the resentment amongst the members here?

It is abundantly clear that India wanted NM to be a PM. It is a proven fact now and no more a wishful thinking.*

America actively tried to sabotage any chances of election of NM as PM. US senator is on record confirming that.*

India is a sovereign democratic country and US claims to be a friend but covertly tried to sabotage the aspirations of majority.*

It is proven beyond doubt that America has interests in Asian and middle eastern countries keep fighting with each other so the west derives benefit out of it. Even if you ignore the world, take a look at India and Pakistan...they have always tried to foment the fights between two countries while paying lip service to talks and peace. BTW that is one of the main reason why US wants to get itself involved in India Pakistan peace initiatives...they can find ways to scuttle any such initiative. In American terminology "being in driver seat"
People see it and react to it. You apparently don't like it. What do you expect from Indians in general and BRFites on this forum?

Resentment is OK. I feel the resentment too. I guess, I was never overly enamored with either Massa or the West to begin with, to feel "let down", or "betrayed", which seems to be the source of a lot of the angst and hurt feelings here. I suspect, again I am not sure, but I suspect, some of the ill feelings also arise here from individual bad experiences in the US or US Embassy or Consulates or from individuals on the forum who are part of the elite in India and therefore, enjoy a privileged life in India and are not terribly bothered by the status quo in India, and in fact have a stake in perpetuating the status quo in India. Status quo in India looks bad, very bad by all measures to status quo in the US. So, a reflexive over criticism of the US emerges from a defensive mindset, which is meant to defend the status quo in India, no matter how bad it gets. How else can we make Indian status quo look good or even not as bad or even if bad, somewhat defensible, compared to the US ?

However, there is a difference between just resentment which in a lot of cases is perfectly justified, although not in all cases, and the kind of vitriol we are hurling, which ideally should be reserved for the real arch enemies, such as the ones of Islamic ilk. Of course, the US is flawed at many levels. There is no question that its foundations were established by stealing Native American land and committing a genocide against them. There is also no question that the institution of slavery was established to exploit the newly stolen land. Further, there is no question that this beacon of democracy then stole roughly half of Mexico(California, Arizona and other Western States) through James Polk's Mexican wars in the late 1840s. There is no question that post abolition of slavery, there developed in the South of the US, an airtight and oppressive set of laws, known collectively as the "Jim Crow" laws, which totally segregated the races and condemned the black folk to extreme poverty, political disenfrenchisement and backwardness. (These Jim Crow laws were finally repealed as late as 1964, by Lyndon Johnson's passage of the Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the same Voting Rights Act which was all but repealed by the US Supreme Court in 2014.) Further more, there is also no question that the US practically had a "Whites Only" immigration policy till as late as 1965, when again Lyndon Johnson with the help of Teddy Kennedy passed the landmark 1965 immigration act which made immigration to the US possible for the first time for more than a handful of non-whites around the world, including India. There are countless other slightly less significant errors of morality and ethics by the US, the latest examples of them being arming Pakistan, condoning Chinese Nuclear proliferation to PAki, going into Iraq to overthrow the most liberal and secular Arab regime and continuing to arm Paki, despite the Pakis killing Americans in Afghanistan. There can be no doubt that Hubris and Stupidity have lately been the hallmark of US policy.

Having said all of that, let me ask you this. Has the Indian Civilization as a whole not been at least as suicidal and self-defeating over the centuries and much more so in the past 65 years, as the US has been oppressive of others ? Have the Indians been not at least as internally corrupt as US has been externally corrupt ? Is it not true that had we Hindus been a people of better character and less corrupt (I am not seeking perfection, but just plain somewhat better), is it not true that we would have been able to repulse the Islamic invasions with relative and considerable ease and certainly not allowed the British to gain any foothold on our land, no matter how much gun powder they had or how imperialistic their intentions were or how expansionist and malicious? When we as Hindus were dealt such a good hand historically, great land, great start, great philosophy, great characters and heroes, great mythology, great climate, great gifts or natural resources, and many other greats........dont you think we should have not messed up these great gifts and developed the ability to at least be masters of our own destiny if not of the whole world ? Our follies and a series of follies and centuries of follies will go down in history as probably the greatest opportunity lost ever by any people or civilization and would go down as the largest squandering of a good thing in history. This is a huge crime, our self made follies and lost opportunities, probably the largest crime in history, which we can blame not the Chinese, not the Islamists, not the British, not the West and yes, not at all, Massa. It is all our own doing. Seriously flawed collective and individual decisions day after day, year after year, decade after decade, century after century, millennium after millennium. We just never stop making bad decisions and never learn. In addition to new ways of making mistakes and being self-destructive, we are also the greatest repeaters of the same mistakes in history.

Given the above, I find the vitriol hurled at another, particularly another which has not been as lethal to us as some of the others, despite all its moral failings of which there are many, some of the major ones I listed above, is laughable. It is almost like we want to scapegoat someone, for all the serial mistakes we have ourselves ever made. And then on top of it, we blame the one country, Massa, which at least engages with us somewhat and allows some of our people to come and live there. Which other country even allows us Indians to migrate and live even in the minimal dignity that we live in Massa ? Germany ? Britain ? China ? France ? Russia ? East "Idi Amin" Africa ? West "boka Haram" Africa? Arabia ? or our great favorite lately, Japan ? Are any of these countries less racist ? Are any of these countries less imperialist or expansionist when and if it ever gets a chance? Are any of these countries less of thieves of other people's resources ? Now, listen to this. At least, Massa, with all its history of barbarity and even current hypocrisy, in relative terms is more open, more introspective, has a vigorous internal debate about its follies, far more than us. Yes, it does not come close to its self image, but unfortunately, it is the best we've got. Humanity has just not advanced as far as we like to believe or as Massa would like to believe. But in relative terms, unfortunately, you cant find anything better in today,s world. No, I am sorry, India is not better. It may be better than the US in terms of exploiting others, but its self-destructive traits drag us way down, to where we are a hugely negative society.

And I have some news for you. Of all the countries in the world, no one is really a genuine friend of India's, no not even Bhutan. The government in exile of Tibet come closest. And as bad as this may sound, but in relative terms, the only country with any significant power that we can reach some sort of even an imperfect alliance with(not friendship) in today's, is unfortunately, Massa. And trust me, we need allies. We absolutely need allies, as imperfect as they may be and as imperfect as we are.

It is therefore, laughable, that we spew such venom at Massa, particularly when we couple this venom with statements like "We can do business with China, but not Massa", or "Paki problem is our family problem", as if Paki is such an affectionate little brother we have. It is a classic case of collective pychosis, where we need to brutally bash the other to collectively feel better about ourselves. No, positive effort towards genuinely feeling good via self-improvement is too utopian and too far of a reach for us Indians. Collective bashing of the "other" is so much easier. And also this is a classic case of Indians being too clever by half. They know that collective bashing and hurling abuse at Massa will not result in the sort of immediate and more lethal retaliation that the Islamists and the Chinese can and will orchestrate. So, in a sense, barking at Massa, is a free shot for us, a free collective bashing of them with no adverse consequences or risk, so let us let it all hang out and hurl that green bile........at Massa.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 26 May 2014 01:04

self deleted as posted in duplicate by mistake

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 May 2014 01:23

It is interesting to see the presentation of clear evidence of specific hanky-panky by elements of the US Government, being described as "spewing venom" - despite admitting that the evidence is real.

FYI, bureaucrats who are being exposed as leading their government into disaster, mostly for personal gain or to benefit private causes, happen to be paid with taxpayer money. They are thus employees of the People, and the People have every right to demand that they be held accountable.

It appears that some ppl do not understand the definition of democracy or freedom. With freedom comes the responsibility to tell the truth when one's own government is breaking the Constitution that they are sworn to protect and uphold.

That is not "spewing venom" at another Democracy (why assume that those here pointing to the misdeeds of the US SD are not Americans? Racist/dhimmi presumption perhaps?)

Nor is it "unpatriotic", except in a bloody dictatorship, to point out that the government is making a pakistan out of the job it is elected/paid to do. In fact we are sort-of uniquely positioned to articulate these things, because most people in America are not in a position to understand the history and circumstances. Or choose to be pig-headed despite knowing the facts.

In none of the issues cited, have the actions of the US government/employees been in accordance with the Constitution of the United States.

There was no call to invade Iraq: it is a disgrace that those responsible have not been hanged.
So who cares? Well... look at the unfolding Veterans Administration Hospital scandal, where officials are being reamed out for HIDING the truth that many veterans have been denied appointments to get attention for critical illness, and have died waiting. Do you know WHY the officials felt compelled to do this? It is because the demand for attention from injured/disabled veterans is so huge. So why hide it? Because the government dare not ask for the resources needed to take care of this huge increase of wounded patients, because that would expose how bad the human cost of the wars is on the American side.

There was no call to mistreat diplomats with the SD extortion scam. It is a disgrace that this continues with stonewalling by the government. Sooner or later that scam will be completely exposed. We are demanding corrective action to forestall disaster. Do you want to wait until things are so bad that India and other nations create specially hurtful rules for American visitors and diplomats as the only way to get the attention of the US? Want US embassies and consulates to basically have to close doors because they can't staff them (since the Diplomats are all in jail for tax evasion or worse, being cavity-searched)?

There is no excuse for using the resources of the US Congress to bring the US into disgrace with what was done in denying a visa to Mr. Modi. Do you want us to stop exposing the scam, and wait until the US passport achieves the same exalted status as a Pakistani passport for gaining entry into other nations?

There was no excuse to interfere in the democratic processes of Ukraine, helping an armed mob of Nazis to overthrow the elected government there. That scam has resulted in the destruction of American credibility throughout Europe if the not the world, and has resulted in disaster with Ukraine fragmented, and Russia strengthened militarily, economically and politically.

Should we desist from pointing this out? Most Americans still are being force-fed the line that Putin is worse than Hitler (Prince hee-haw Charles of Poodlestan, having dodged prosecution for the murder of his first wife, just declared in Canada a couple of days back that Putin was creating a Holocaust worse than what Ukrainians endured in WW2!!!)

Do you know how close the Ukrainian crisis came to destroying the world in a WW3 (it still can..) If Crimea had been taken away and annexed into a regime hostile to Russia, Russia would have lost all warm-water access (which means water access in winter). They would have been forced to invade, and that would lead pretty surely to nuclear and thermonuclear exchange. Is it wrong of us to point out that allowing those responsible for this mess, such as Victoria *UCK-THE-EU Nuland, should be punished or at least sidelined from all power?

There is no excuse for people like Steven Cohen of the Brookings Institution campaigning for US government support of the bloody dictator Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan, and now continuing his anti-India campaign. His record of utterly disastrous "advice" should be exposed and investigated. Whom has he (and others like him) really been serving? How many innocents have died or been tortured because the US supported the bloody Musharraf? Musharraf came extremely close to causing nuclear war with his Kargil invasion, and then with the 2002 terror attacks. Why has the US not taken steps to have him convicted in the world court?

There is no excuse for US officials or politicians interfering in India and attempting to subvert the government and influencing elections using government resources, or using disguised "NGO"s. The result is going to be that US NGO work that has benefited many people, will now come under increasing scrutiny and obstacles. Those most in need of help will be the sufferers. Those responsible for this misuse of government power should be exposed and punished.

If pointing these out makes you uncomfortable, well, I am sure I have the freedom to wonder why. Oh yes, and then there are the one-line cowboys showing their yahoo-skills. Most impressive.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 May 2014 01:49

TSJones stop this juvenile behaviour of quoting page long posts only to add a smiley at the end.
if you dont have anything substantial to add, better avoid posting.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 26 May 2014 02:45

Yankee-doodle-dos(tsjones,rsangram and co) whether you like it or you don't you lost getting a puppet for your subootaging acts, tried all the dirty proven tricks in the book but still failed to me this is desperation and moans of failure

Whether you like it or u don't world has chaned to multipolar and unipolar power is slowly dying its own sweet natural death

Mr. Sangram regarding friends of India we got more real ones than 1000 fake ones massa has , just to give a example last time we needed help in 1971 war when masa"s ultimate symbol of power was dispatched to bob they had nuclear submarine trailing them and rest as they say is history and same friends are helping us build our indigenous nuc sub. See if u can find similar help incidences from great 1000 yr old civilization history of massa

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 26 May 2014 03:02

UlanBatori wrote:It is both laziness and incompetence on the part of the STATE Department, whose supposed portfolio is diplomacy, not military action, nor intelligence ( ha!) gathering. Ordering an invasion is a poor substitute for patient, intelligent (I mean of the intelligent kind, not videotaping ppl in bedrooms kind) engagement and building trust and understanding. As the experience in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Syria, and soon, Nigeria, show.

I don't for a moment imagine that either the military or the intel-gathering depts are lazy or incompetent. Also, they DO get the "Best of the Best of the Best" both in sheer bravery and strength on the part of the soldiers, and smarts on the part of the ppl in the tech caves. And it shows.

Meanwhile, the vast expenditure on the State Dept. appears to be a waste of $$. They could install automatic visa machines next to the condom dispensers at airports and bus stations and close down the super-fortresses protecting Ambassador Paco and his cretins.

Batori ji

That is why they helped create Blackwater. When Blackwater became expensive, they tried running them aground. It lead to a spurt of many similar private contractors who try giving them more bang for the buck.

The truth I believe is somewhere Americans voluntarily gave up their freedom. The TSA, vija policy, border patrols are more to keep Americans within than prevent foreigners from entering. A virtual prison. But no one is complaining. The next iphone will be launched soon. Let's question at the nearest half eaten Safarchand store.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 26 May 2014 03:13

@ rsangram ^^^: Let it go. I completely get what you're trying to say and I'm not reflexively anti-anything. No, scratch that I'm reflexively anti-paki and all wannabee pakis.

That said, Your point if IIUC, is that emotion has no place in statecraft.

I agree and I would guess most on this forum would too. But we are individuals and the entire spate of DoS actions, and goof ups has made many of us a little sentimental about the 'goodness' and 'promise' of America.

Modi will make the DoS and the WH realize that it's not as simple as decalring India an 'ally' and then proceeding to make demands without reciprocity.

They will be better for that and so will we.

JMT

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 26 May 2014 05:06

Black water was a terrorist organization engaged in killing people in foreign countries that had been invaded by the US to expropriate resources.

They probably dissolved because of lawsuits being launched against them by family members & relatives whom they had killed overseas.

The privatization of war fighting is a real bad idea.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 26 May 2014 05:31

Neshant wrote:Black water was a terrorist organization engaged in killing people in foreign countries that had been invaded by the US to expropriate resources.

They probably dissolved because of lawsuits being launched against them by family members & relatives whom they had killed overseas.

The privatization of war fighting is a real bad idea.

Blackwater has changed its name, just like all other good non state actors. That is all.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2014 07:54

rsangram wrote:
And I have some news for you. Of all the countries in the world, no one is really a genuine friend of India's, no not even Bhutan. The government in exile of Tibet come closest. And as bad as this may sound, but in relative terms, the only country with any significant power that we can reach some sort of even an imperfect alliance with(not friendship) in today's, is unfortunately, Massa. And trust me, we need allies. We absolutely need allies, as imperfect as they may be and as imperfect as we are.

I haven't been reading all posts in detail, but the above statement caught my eye.

If you look at Pakistan, you see that India, Afghanistan and Iran are not "real friends" of Pakistan. But the US is more than a friend - its an ally of Pakistan. China is a friend of Pakistan

China has a few friends. One is Pakistan and the other is North Korea. Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Russia an India are not real friends. Of course there is trade, but if "trade==friendship", then the US and China are big friends.

Now we find that Pakistan is an ally of the US
China is a friend of Pakistan.
Pakistan actively hates India.

Should we emulate the US and give Pakistan what they desire so that we can have a friend?

Or should we simply ignore the US's openly declared strategy of "balancing" one country with another - as in "balancing" india with Pakistan and "balancing" China using India and some other nations. We could then become great friends with the US and say, with some pride "Heck we have no friends in the region. Not even Bhutan. But America is our friend because we help them balance out China". Pakistanis can say "The US is our friend because we help them balance out India, Iran and Russia in exchange for aid".

Is this what you are suggesting, or do you have some other mode of relationship in mind with India and the US? I put it to you that the US has no real friends either other than perhaps Poodlestan UK. The US has a purely transactional relationship with all its "friends" and when nations do not reciprocate the US in a transactional relationship that benefits the US - relations become strained.

In fact most international relationships are transactional, and that is how they must be. Sentiment can be dangerous. If India must work for its own interests its relationship with the US will have to be guarded. With 1.2 billion (and increasing) people demanding more and more of the world's resources, Indians are definitely going to step on US toes by making some global resources more scarce and making things more costly and less free for Americans. China is already doing that. India will follow. So the US is going to watch out for India and vice versa. I think everyone who wants to see a healthy relationship between India and the US needs to get used to this fact.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 26 May 2014 07:57

...
. look at the unfolding Veterans Administration Hospital scandal, where officials are being reamed out for HIDING the truth that many veterans have been denied appointments to get attention for critical illness, and have died waiting. Do you know WHY the officials felt compelled to do this? It is because the demand for attention from injured/disabled veterans is so huge. So why hide it? Because the government dare not ask for the resources needed to take care of this huge increase of wounded patients, because that would expose how bad the human cost of the wars is on the American side..

UBji, I'm not an expert in US VA administration, but later this year important US elections are coming up, presidential in 2016; and whenever elections in US come up, issues that otherwise go on unnoticed or cared less about, somehow become extremely important. VA issue becomes particularly important as it allows Dems' opponents to hit Dems hard on their turf of "healthcare"; somehow making a link between Obamacare and everything that is going wrong in healthcare. VA's inefficiencies are well documented and it is not the first time they are have come under fire. And the reason they need all the firepower is because they attempted to use Obamacare in his 2nd term elections and it did not work. Republicans are looking for holes in healthcare, and VA, unfortunately due to high demand, becomes an easy target. Just my view on the episode looking from outside..

member_28042 · Post by **member_28042** » 26 May 2014 08:33

Karzai refused to meet Obama at Bagram Air Base, says US official

Bagram (Afghanistan) (AFP) - Afghan President Hamid Karzai was offered a meeting with President Barack Obama at Bagram Air Base outside Kabul but declined, a US official said Sunday.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 26 May 2014 08:52

White House outs CIA station chief in Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 26 May 2014 09:31

Modi’s existential challenge to Obama

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f05a7396-e1b6 ... abdc0.html

Whatever you think of him, Narendra Modi’s victory is a global event. Nobody knows whether Mr Modi will embrace the US-India relationship or walk the multipolar walk. His swearing-in on Monday as India’s prime minister coincides with Vladimir Putin’s “pivot to Asia” with the 30-year China-Russia gas deal.

US President Barack Obama’s own pivot looks increasingly content-free. If the US president is to retrieve the geopolitical initiative, he will need to win over India’s new strongman. India, as they say, is the “global swing state” of the 21st century. Mr Obama must ensure it swings America’s way.

That looks like a bit of a stretch right now. Mr Modi is bristling with resentment at a US that denied him a visa in 2005 over his role in the 2002 Gujarat massacres and only lifted the ban recently. In contrast, Mr Modi visited Japan five times during that period and China on three occasions – always getting the red carpet treatment.

Normally Indian chief ministers meet one member of the Chinese politburo. On his most recent trip Mr Modi met four. Uniquely for a provincial leader, he was also received in the Great Hall of the People. President Xi Jinping clearly saw Mr Modi coming. Mr Obama denied him entry. That, at least, is how Mr Modi sees it.

Nor does he make a secret of his grievance. Mr Modi’s advisers have put it out that his first two trips are likely to be to Japan and China, both of which he admires for their ability to execute big projects and create manufacturing jobs – core planks in the Bharatiya Janata party’s election platform. After that, he is likely to visit the Brics summit in Brazil in July where he will get a photo opportunity with Mr Xi and Mr Putin. Only in September will Mr Modi touch down on US soil (visa in hand) for the UN summit in New York.

“There is no need for Mr Modi to go to Washington and beg for a lunch meeting with the US president,” wrote Kanwal Sibal, who is on the short list to be Mr Modi’s national security adviser.

Successive administrations – starting from Bill Clinton’s – might argue that the US has already bent over backwards to seduce India into its fold. George W Bush carved out a giant exception to his weapons of mass destruction policy by accepting India into the nuclear weapons club.

Mr Obama completed that deal and offered his first state dinner to Manmohan Singh, the then Indian prime minister, whom he described as his guru. Mr Obama even travelled to New Delhi in 2010 to declare that the US supported India’s permanent membership of the UN Security Council – again, a giant exception that was offered to no other country. But Mr Obama’s UN gesture had little impact on Indians.

To borrow a phrase from Mohandas Gandhi, they viewed it as a postdated cheque on a failing bank. Can Mr Obama write any cheques that do not bounce?

The answer is clearly yes – if he wants to. For all of Mr Modi’s resentment at the US, he has already shown his pragmatism. In addition to having laundered his image since 2002 by focusing on Gujarat’s development, Mr Modi has swallowed one genuine enmity before he is even sworn in.

By inviting Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan’s prime minister, to attend today’s oath-taking in New Delhi, Mr Modi signalled he is open for business. His mandate is to lift India’s growth rate and create jobs for the millions of young men roaming the countryside. War with Pakistan would derail that agenda. So too would friction with China.

It is difficult to imagine he would pick a fight with the US, which remains the world’s largest investor. This is where Mr Obama’s diplomatic skills will be tested. In the first instance, he needs to restore Mr Modi’s “face”.

India’s prime minister believes America has treated him as an untouchable. Only the royal treatment would atone. It is very hard to imagine Mr Obama taking anyone into the Oval Office and calling them “buddy”. That was Mr Bush’s speciality. But he will need to make a big gesture to break the ice.

The US must also show it is willing to help Mr Modi’s agenda. In the past few years India has treated foreign investors badly, including US companies, by imposing arbitrary and retroactive tax bills. Assuming Mr Modi puts India’s venal tax bureaucracy in its place, the door will be open for the country’s foreign investment boom to resume.

Whatever lift the US can give to Mr Modi’s development goals will be worth its weight in diplomatic gold.

US business leaders remain agitated by India’s failure to give them a liability waiver on nuclear power plant accidents. They should move past it. The world has changed since the meltdown in Fukushima.

The US is unlikely to reap the commercial dividends of its nuclear deal with India. Like China, India has a limitless appetite for cheap energy. Mr Modi is likely to take whatever pipelines are on offer, whether they originate in Russia or Iran. Sentiment is unlikely to pose any obstacles.

Without meaning to, Mr Modi has laid down a challenge to Mr Obama. The US president was never happier than when he was exchanging words with Manmohan Singh – another well-intentioned leader seemingly powerless to act.

Like him or not, Mr Modi is a man of action. At a time when most of the Bric countries are moving away from the US, Mr Modi’s ascent poses an existential question. Can Mr Obama be a statesman of action?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2014 09:48

I believe that Modi is too clever a statesman to "resent" the US denying him a visa. That is too simplistic and US-centric a viewpoint which appears from a mindset that actually believes that a US visa is a reward and should be considered as such.

What the denial of visa did was to put Modi in a group of about 1 billion Indian who will never be eligible for a US visa and know that it is perfectly possible to live life and often live it well without a US visa. The US is an important nation of course - but by being friendly with some Indians the US ensures their support or at least their lack of opposition. By excluding people - the US is simply letting people realize for themselves that the US is not as vital to one's well being and survival as is projected. It will be difficult to pressure Modi if he has already worked out in his mind all the ways in which he can finger the US.

America wins supporters from among just 4% or so of Indians - that is those who are highly educated and get a chance to realise their wildest dreams there. That still leaves behind 96% of Indians who have, per force to make their lives in India - so it's not as though it's lonely in India without US backing