Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

James B · Post by **James B** » 28 May 2014 19:53

Disappointed to find that one of the election affidavits of Smriti Irani is wrong. She should come clean. We have pilloried Sonia Gandhi for lying on affidavits. Same case applicable to Smriti Irani as well.

BJP could do without these controversies.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 May 2014 20:13

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 May 2014 20:13

I don't know about you guys, but that interview of Smriti convinces me (not that I was not) that she is in fact right person for that job (or any job for that matter). Watch it, the character of the person comes out. At that position, you need attitude (the right kind), not aptitude. You ahve enough IAS this and that with lots of aptitude to do your bidding, and she has the right attitude.

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 28 May 2014 20:14

Okay, so Holy Child Auxilliam is a TFTA school as RB would agree. Smriti is not from a poor family IMHO. Many kids from TFTA dilli-billi families work at Wimpy's/McD/KFC to make easy money, so nothing abnormal there.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 May 2014 20:16

yea yeah yah! but why lie on document is the question mr. bond is asking

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 May 2014 20:21

Zee News ‏@ZeeNews 11m

Restore plaque with Savarkar's quotes at Andaman memorial: BJP http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/re ... 35632.html …

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 May 2014 20:24

Looks like GJ Govt reinstated GL Singhal , accused in Ishrat Jehan Encounter case. : Breaking News.

Wheels slowly started turning.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 May 2014 20:25

abhijitm wrote:Omar Abdullah is India's original kejriwal.

BJP has started mind game on 370. They have released a cat among pigeons. Singh said, took back, RSS jumped in. All good. Cong so far has not fallen for it. Omar did or cong is using Omar to counter. So far I am happy with BJP's tactics here. Here it seems Modi and his 'core gang' is in full control.

Latest

TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 18m

The development of Jammu and Kashmir could not take off due to #Article370: Nitin Gadkari #370Debate

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 May 2014 20:40

Wow...a Shiv Vishwanathan article that did not make me want to throw up. Kind of liked it actually: Inauguration ki raajneeti

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 28 May 2014 20:57

SaiK wrote:yea yeah yah! but why lie on document is the question mr. bond is asking

and credibility of the image?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 May 2014 21:21

Ajayendar Reddinho ‏@ajayendar 5h

"The poorest State in India is Bihar, but today Kashmir gets 11 times more Central assistance than Bihar." http://www.indiandefencereview.com/inte ... d-article/ …

member_28025 · Post by **member_28025** » 28 May 2014 21:32

abhijitm wrote:
SaiK wrote:yea yeah yah! but why lie on document is the question mr. bond is asking
and credibility of the image?

And in case Smriti has signed a false affidavit, she should be tried for perjury.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2014 21:41

merlin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:there might be some reason that the PM chose smriti for this role, but frankly I cant see it.
even modi is due one mistake I guess.

p.s. the logic that the past HRD ministers with degrees didn't do much is a major fallacy, that in no way implies getting someone less educated is the solution.
As is the fallacy that getting someone less educated will not fix the problem.

I have elaborated my POV in some detail in earlier posts of the thread. would love to have your reasoned critique of the same.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 28 May 2014 21:45

So the 2004 affidavit was sexed-up and the mistake was corrected in the 2014 affidavit. Apologize and move on.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 May 2014 21:51

can't the ECI have online documentations accessible for public view? these are public data right?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 28 May 2014 21:53

I'm waiting for the 2011 census to be released. Expect Hindus to be around 72-75% of the population.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 May 2014 21:55

To become a Minister of any damn ministry in Govt of India one needs to become MP. Nothing else is prescribed. Qualifications don't matter if person is already a high achiever. Times Now is citing umpteen leaders who excelled in public life without having some junk piece of paper proclaiming a person as Graduate. and is good for getting job with reference to recruitment rues which prescribes just that. Else avg graduate is pretty much a useless creature in the society, unemployable . unskilled and good for nothing. And in India this applies to PeeChaddis too.

Some examples quoted in TimesNow Debates

Winston Churchil
Lincon
Steve Jobs
Kamraj
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad

and what about

MMS who ran country into ground
Did Sonia Gandhi had requisite qualification to become NAC chairperson which ruled by proxy. Did she make false affidavit in elections abt her qualifications?
What is qualification of RG?
How MS GIll was made youth Minister at age past expiry?
Prafuula Patel wasn;t a Pilot, BTW.

And when Ministers are chosen by Public ( having been elected as MP ) under the constitution then do we change the qualification required for MP??

Only thing I can say is that congis ( some of them) are suffering from foot in the mouth disease and some here too.

Anyway having fun time discussing Sonia Gandhi without fear of reprisals. DorrNob seems energised and changed. What gives?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 May 2014 21:55

She should just keep quiet and the issue will blow over. Not a fan of her getting HRD, but she is a feisty type and if she listens to domain professionals and takes quick decisions that will be a plus. Plus, its clear she is intelligent - listen to her speak - and she is a superb orator in both Hindi & English - its not easy to pick up multiple languages and be completely fluent in them.
At the end of the day, her job is that of a program manager - she can't know everything - but if she has a good team and uses common sense, and establishes clear, honest processes, it will be a big plus.

The likes of Sibal were more into politics than actual administration. Irani has an opportunity to make a name for herself as a decisive administrator. Hope she uses it.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 28 May 2014 21:59

One thing that BJP needs to do is to not make mistakes that help AK49 (if he still has some voice), Congi and their pet media to do equal equal. This is a very powerful tool that has been used by AK49 with good impression on the common man. Just by playing equal-equal comments by common man in the media it will be possible to create false impressions.

member_27987 · Post by **member_27987** » 28 May 2014 22:00

I still don't see any concrete reasons as to why she shouldn't be an HRD minister. All I can read is:

She is not qualified enough

We have proved using many examples that qualification really doesn't matter. What matters is the courage and mettle to make the required changes. Rest is all humbug

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2014 22:10

I call this disease among indians as KhujliDharmacitis.

its symptoms are that any number of wrongdoings of the bad guys are acceptable and expected and ok.

but the 'good guys' have to conform 101% to some inflated sense of dharma that not even Lord Krishna with his jayadratha, shikhandi, ashwathama tricks did not fully pursue. and they will be beaten savagely for any failure instead of spending cycles burning the roofs of the bad guys.

we saw it in ABV era , he had to be more sikular than JLN himself to be "accepted" as a PM ....

there is an additional layer of IIX (X=T,M) educational snobbery in our society on top of it.

dont fall for the trap...atleast in BR.

truth be told most of the successful entrepreneurs and SME owners in india are not that well educated. many do not have any great degree but they are wise and smart people who get things done. among the big cos, the scions went abroad and got degrees through fathers money, but its not the degree which makes them failures or successes.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 28 May 2014 22:20

^^ I think its time to lock up all the NaMo and Election threads otherwise the muharram season will continue.

Instead BRF as a think tank has to create a thread about deficiencies in the Constitution like these:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1662549

SanjayC wrote:
abhischekcc wrote: And yes, minority institutions (all religions) can start schools where they allow only their co-religionists to study and promote their own religion, and STILL receive government subsidies. Only Hindus are not allowed to start their own religious based schools and colleges.
I remember reading somewhere that a member of the constituent assembly, when he saw the final shape of the constitution, threw the document down in front of everyone in disgust, calling it a "manual for oppression of the Hindus." Most constituent assembly members were Hindus, and there was no pressure on them from anyone. Then how could they come up with such diabolic anti-Hindu provisions in the constituent on their own will? The answer could be that they were all Cong members and, as Savarkar observed, it had become a through and through anti-Hindu and anti-national institution since the entry of Gandhi and it was true to its agenda in drafting the constitution.

The posters can pool such things under 'constitution failings' thread so a coherent picture emerges and can also be sent to the Govt. as suggestion.

This will channel the energy in much better way.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 May 2014 22:49

Shamlee wrote: Unfortunately I don't have many female friends. In any case most females are more interested in jewellery, clothes, their kids, cooking and bi*ching etc. In short, not the type to join BRF.

"cooking and bi*ching:" is an essential part of BR. Look at the threads.

nagesh · Post by **nagesh** » 28 May 2014 23:00

Hey there Shamlee,
I am there to give you company..you are not alone here

Cosmo_R wrote:
Shamlee wrote: Unfortunately I don't have many female friends. In any case most females are more interested in jewellery, clothes, their kids, cooking and bi*ching etc. In short, not the type to join BRF.
"cooking and bi*ching:" is an essential part of BR. Look at the threads.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 28 May 2014 23:02

scuzi.. thanks mahulR ji..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2014 23:04

Dilbu wrote:I have seen the carrot now I am waiting to see a hint of the stick. I am more than happy if India finally decides to have a stick, forget using it. So I have decided to wait and watch.

NaMo will fail to deliver onlee.

we already see ombaba welcoming the move which he would have demanded as a brownie point ot the abduls.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 May 2014 23:06

Rahul M wrote:there might be some reason that the PM chose smriti for this role, but frankly I cant see it.
even modi is due one mistake I guess.

p.s. the logic that the past HRD ministers with degrees didn't do much is a major fallacy, that in no way implies getting someone less educated is the solution.

Rahul M, The biggest fallacy is equating degree with education(which is what you are doing). Education is about learning and Smriti Irani was pretty good at it wrt her field(acting/entertainment).

Smriti Irani deserves a chance. If she is unable to perform then yes, she should be shunted out.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2014 23:08

nagesh != nageshks

============

darshan ji, I am not. I have already explained my stand in detail in earlier pages. please go through them first.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 May 2014 23:08

Saral wrote:
SaiK wrote:How about wimmen empowerment thread?
Yep.. Make it inclusive onlee.

Bery secKoolar too. 3 out of 7 are minority and another is married to a "smallest" minority.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 May 2014 23:15

Once the question of qualifications is raised, it can get tricky pretty quickly. If someone is not even a literate, then people will demand for a literate. If someone is a literate but school dropout, then people will ask for 10th pass. If someone is a 10th pass, people will ask for a 12th pass. If someone is a 12th pass, people will demand a graduate. If someone is a graduate, people will ask for post-graduate. If someone is a post-graduate, people demand that the university in which such a post-graduation is done is more important. If someone is from a phoren university, then they are supposed to be at a higher pecking order. This will go on, until only someone who is educated in Harvard is considered as eligible.

Anyway, who really is qualified to head HRD ministry? Strictly, based on education qualification, no one will ever be qualified. Even if someone has done PHD in history, they have not done PHD in chemistry, phy, biology, maths, ...etc. If being PHD in any subject is good enough(or even being a graduate is good enough), then the question is 'How'? How is becoming a graduate in commerce connected to science education? How is being a post-graduate in biology concerned with history? Unless someone has done PHD in every subject, they cannot claim to be the well-versed in that subject(going by the argument). If that is the case, then no one is qualified. By these standards, no one would qualify to become even a prinicpal leave alone HRD minister.

No one can really claim to be a master of all arts. So, the question of qualifications is tricky.

The next question is 'who judges who is qualified for what?' Who decides who is qualified for what? Generally, the employer decides whether the employee is qualified or not. Similarly, the customer decides whether the item being sold is suitable or not. Voter decides whether the politician is deserving or not. In this case, PM decides whether the person qualifies to be a minister or not.

Others can criticize based on the work of those ministers and ultimately it is the work that matters regardless of all other qualifications(or lack of it). But to raise the questions of qualification even before any work has been done seems flimsy to me. Now, the kongis are obviously rattled by Smruthi, so they are attacking her.

What qualifications did NaMo have when he became CM? Going by the standards being demanded of Smruthi, no civilian will qualify as defence minister. By those standards, one can even ask whether NaMo qualifies as PM. This whole arguments sounds like elitist snobbery to me. While, having a degree is great, ultimately its the work that matters.

I personally think that no one is qualified for anything. People just do what they can manage based on circumstances and opportunities. Each person has certain positives and negatives which can be channeled.

The major advantage of Smruthi is that she is a light-weight, so she is not going to defy the PM. She seems to enjoy his trust by being loyal to him. She has also proved that she is feisty fighter by challenging the pappu in his homeground. She is a good spokesperson(which shows that she doesn't lack basic common sense and necessary preparation). I think these qualities are more than enough to get the job done in all ministries.

Most of the modern-day education seems to focus on creating a group think i.e. people who follow the 'mainstream' without questioning. Those who raise unconventional questions are put down in one way or the other. The modern-day education seems to have its basis in creating clerks for the British colonial system. Of late, the emphasis has changed from clerks to technical aspects(like engg) but largely the system is more or less same.

Traditionally, in Bhaarathiya education system, it seems the focus was on creating vocational training with emphasis on skill development. People learnt their traditional vocations from a young age which they inherited the business from their ancestors. The drawback of this system is that the social mobility is severely restrained over a period of time. Dynasties are perpetuated in such a system. Castes and class become rigid in such a system and create opportunities for discrimination and oppression. But, the positive of such a system is that it creates a ready pool of experts in various vocations and also job opportunities for them.

The modern education seems to be geared for two things:
a) clerical positions
b) technical positions

Clerks are generally appointed by the Govts. For a long time, Govt jobs were much sought after. Infact, many major social and political movements were with the goal to secure Govt jobs. The demand for separate state of Thelangana was first raised for Govt jobs. Similarly, the Shiv Sena's tirade against the 'madrasis' was for the sake of Govt jobs. Similarly, justice party(the predecessor of dmk parties) was established for securing Govt jobs. In the same way, the Sinhala vs Tamil issue erupted for the sake of Govt jobs. Govt jobs(i.e. clerical positions) are one of the major source of employment in many countries(particularly if they are poor and there is less private enterprise). This means that the Govts of poor countries have to enter into a socialist model to provide employment for most people. The alternative is to allow the phoren companies(or their surrogates) to set up shop. Another alternative is the traditional Bhaarathiya system(i.e. focus on the vocational skill training).

Of late, the emphasis seems to be on technical expertise(generally engg or medical). Most of the engg graduates seem to be employed in BPO or service industry(dependent on phoren companies). Medical people go for private or govt jobs.

One reason that Modi seems to be emphasizing on manufacturing sector is that the present system seems to be heavily dependent on phoren companies or govt. Dependence on phoren companies means dependence on phoren countries directly or indirectly which weakens the country. Similarly, Modi has been talking a lot about skill development.

One more thing which can be done using HRD ministry is to encourage martial arts and sports in schools, colleges and universities by conducting regular high-profile competitions. (For example, Kalari Payattu and Mal Kambh can be encouraged in universities just like Japan encourages its martial arts in schools, colleges and universities). Similarly, traditional arts like music and dance(from different regions) can be encouraged. And one can also give impetus to Yoga, Ayurvedha, ...etc.

One of the major achievements of Bhaarathiya civilization are philosophical streams called 'Dharshanas'. There are various kinds of Dharshanas which give various hypothesis(most of the modern sciences accept one or the other hypothesis). There used to be frequent debate between these various groups. The main idea behind this system seems to be intellectual freedom to raise questions, think for one self and freedom of speech/ideas. In contrast, the modern day education seems to discourage individuality and focus on fashioning people in a particular manner to serve the needs of Govt or corporates. A sort of herd-mentality seems to be encouraged in modern-day education. The rise of internet has created an ideal situation for re-invigorating the Bhaarathiya ideal 'of intellectual freedom to raise questions, think for one self and freedom of speech/ideas'.

Another aspect of traditional Bhaarathiya education model seems to be emphasis on practical learning particularly by being in close proximity to nature. Most of the artificial solutions take inspiration from the nature directly or indirectly. The most elegant solutions are those which are able to mimic the nature. This seems to apply to all fields. Therefore, being in close proximity to nature and studying it would help the students and researchers in their quest.

Since, Smruthi Irani is not a rank outsider nor is she an insider. So, she can tinker with the system if need be. I think this is the area where major (and long lasting) changes will come.

Since, Smruthi comes from tv industry, she can also encourage the extra-curricular activities which are useful for entertainment industry. She can integrate them. Any entertainment industry would need poets, writers, actors, dancers, singers, ...etc. Such training can be started from school level onwards and special colleges/universities can be established for expertise. I know that these already exist in some measure, but they are not integrated with the entertainment industry.

I think the goal should be to establish an IIT, IIM, AIIMS, ...etc in every state atleast(diffuse these institutions i.e. don't establish them all in one city instead it is better if they are established in different cities for all round development). This requires complete Govt action.

And there should be a college/school and hospital in every village/town/city. For this goal, the private partnership can be sought by the Govt along with improving the Govt schools and colleges. The Govt can provide tax exemptions to people who establish schools/colleges/hospitals in far flung villages/towns. Similarly, perks can be given to those who work in such places.

The idea should be to bring down the cost of education and make it easily affordable to one and all along with improving the quality(i.e. skill improvement).

Obviously, if the roads, railways, ports,...etc improve, then the resulting development will also help the cause of education.

Sridhar wrote: I know that there are some people obsessed with what is taught in history books, but there are huge issues to be dealt with in the administration of our education system at all levels that are of much greater importance.

Link to post

If history is not important, then it should not be taught at all. If history is important, then it should be taught properly. But either way, distorted or redacted history should not be taught. Ignorance is far better than wrong-knowledge or misleading half-knowledge. If a person is ignorant, he can start from a clean slate whenever he may be interested in the subject. On the other hand, if a person has been fed wrong or misleading information, then it becomes more difficult for a person to obtain the right knowledge.

Is history more important than science or maths?
The question is similar to asking which is more important food or water. A person needs both to be alive. A society needs some historical narrative(whether officially acknowledged or not) just as much as it needs science or maths.

member_23651 · Post by **member_23651** » 28 May 2014 23:25

abhik wrote: Bery secKoolar too. 3 out of 7 are minority and another is married to a "smallest" minority.

Actually make it four, technically Smriti is Parsi(married a Parsi)

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 May 2014 23:37

Dilbu wrote:I have seen the carrot now I am waiting to see a hint of the stick. I am more than happy if India finally decides to have a stick, forget using it. So I have decided to wait and watch.

NaMo will fail to deliver onlee.

I believe the stick is Doval as NSA

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 May 2014 23:42

saravana wrote:This is a pretty significant statement from RSS, though I don't know if their stand was otherwise earlier

The remark by RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav that the criminalisation of homosexuality is debatable appears to be among the remarkable surprises that the BJP-led NDA government has on offer. According to a report by Times of India, Madhav has reportedly said that “while he did not glorify certain kinds of behaviour covered by Section 377, it was debatable whether they should be considered a crime.”

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/politics/rss-s ... ef_article

This is a very easy fulltoss for the bjp govt hit the "liberal" gumbal for a six. Get the criminalisation removed and watch them flounder trying to explain it

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 May 2014 00:06

scope it outside cultural practice. period/not criminal.. good going there, seems like rss have hired some exotic yum bee yay cum techno guys i have known.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 29 May 2014 00:07

Prasad wrote:
saravana wrote:This is a pretty significant statement from RSS, though I don't know if their stand was otherwise earlier
This is a very easy fulltoss for the bjp govt hit the "liberal" gumbal for a six. Get the criminalisation removed and watch them flounder trying to explain it

Looking at RSS reaction, "liberals" have already put the statement as weak. If you look the world over, it is not over until full marriage + child-adoption + other tax benefits are not enabled.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2014 00:07

Singha wrote:I call this disease among indians as KhujliDharmacitis.

its symptoms are that any number of wrongdoings of the bad guys are acceptable and expected and ok.

but the 'good guys' have to conform 101% to some inflated sense of dharma that not even Lord Krishna with his jayadratha, shikhandi, ashwathama tricks did not fully pursue. and they will be beaten savagely for any failure instead of spending cycles burning the roofs of the bad guys.

we saw it in ABV era , he had to be more sikular than JLN himself to be "accepted" as a PM ....

there is an additional layer of IIX (X=T,M) educational snobbery in our society on top of it.

dont fall for the trap...atleast in BR.

truth be told most of the successful entrepreneurs and SME owners in india are not that well educated. many do not have any great degree but they are wise and smart people who get things done. among the big cos, the scions went abroad and got degrees through fathers money, but its not the degree which makes them failures or successes.

+100000

And I speak as one "supposedly" edumacated too like rest of us BRF jingos.

Education!= wisdom though it does open your eyes and make you aware of many things. But I'll take a nationalist with limited education, but willingness to learn, over some super smart crook any day who makes a virtue out of denying everything his/her culture holds dear.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 May 2014 00:09

I want to counter NDTV crap! can bjp/rss do something about it? Can't some joint force team establishe a new info channel, that is really advanced enough to reach billions? DD is crap!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 May 2014 00:11

prahaar wrote:Looking at RSS reaction, "liberals" have already put the statement as weak. If you look the world over, it is not over until full marriage + child-adoption + other tax benefits are not enabled.

The "minorities" of the west who have to be talked about every second out of some sense of ==. Seriously I am tired of being spammed by some email or link or the other being "sensitive" to gays or the like every other day. I mean, fine - treat them equally and all, but the way the western media /establishment seems to be going overboard ..

Its way overblown vs the rest of the more pressing stuff - gun culture/violence, criminality, financial fraud, etc.

Could be though its the same bunch of gasbags.. their equivalents of our leftist liberal types who spend 10x posts a day yapping about fascists, secoolarism etc.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 May 2014 00:15

prahaar wrote:
Prasad wrote: This is a very easy fulltoss for the bjp govt hit the "liberal" gumbal for a six. Get the criminalisation removed and watch them flounder trying to explain it
Looking at RSS reaction, "liberals" have already put the statement as weak. If you look the world over, it is not over until full marriage + child-adoption + other tax benefits are not enabled.

They'll always cry saar. But ultimately what also matters is benefits to people who can't get any right now. Same with the transgender folks. Now I think GoI recognises them as a third gender and even has a third option for sex. marriage licenses and adoption protocol changes are far in the future. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it, but society takes time.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 May 2014 00:15

equivalent of AK49 gangs and turd moblets.