Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I was thinking of using the word "world and global" when it covers all states of India. Like the massans, anything done with all states, it becomes a world event or international events for namesakes - baseball world cup, super bowl etc.
IPL world cup, Hygiene World plan, Cultural world plan etc.. for the pisskology sake!
IPL world cup, Hygiene World plan, Cultural world plan etc.. for the pisskology sake!
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 742979.cms
The conversation took place at the initiative of Li, who wanted to congratulate Modi. The telephone conversation was Modi's first with a foreign head of government since taking over as Prime Minister of India.
Modi told the premier that Hiuen had even visited his village Vadnagar in Gujarat, top government sources told TOI. Modi is apparently familiar with Hiuen's memoirs which he wrote after travelling all over India during his stay of close to 15 years in the country.
Largely forgotten in China, Hiuen is remembered in India for the most authoritative and captivating account of social, economic and political conditions in India in the 7th century.
Modi and Li hit it off so well that the conversation lasted for about 30 minutes.
Modi mentioned Hiuen's visit to his village to emphasise the importance he attached to ties with China. He told Li China would be a priority country for him.
Any talk about the civilizational links between the two countries is incomplete without a reference to Hiuen. By mentioning Hiuen's visit to his village, Modi has in a way made himself central to India's foreign policy imperatives on China.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
personally i think that we should quantize the black money in terms of criminal punishment. for example a 100 crore rupees of black money should be made equivalent to 1 cold bloodied preplanned murder. That should stop all the black money from being used from now on. And also declare that all black money is nations property, be it in India or be it in any private bank account any where in the world that is held by an Indian passport holder which is not reported in INDIA.panduranghari wrote:Sir,Agnimitra wrote:Some choices can be gamed in order to bring most of the money back - as well as to do it while preserving or enhancing social capital.
One of the several choices (for selected people) can be anonymity - but the sum of money repatriated can be made public.
As long as that is done, and the repatriated money intelligently invested in the economy, I think the public will be satisfied.
a few people who are unlikely to ad to the nation's social capital can be made examples of.
Less than 15% black money will come back.
People need to be named and shamed.
If and ONLY if, all the known money returns, there will be a depreciation of the rupee. Not a good idea. better to hold it offshore and buy arms or buy assets overseas.
Every person holding black money should be made an example of. No other deterent will work.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
India will see more US investment if defence FDI cap raised: Boeing
India will see more investments from American companies once it decides to raise the foreign direct investment (FDI) level in the defence sector from 26 to 49 per cent, a top Boeing executive has said.
"49 per cent will see more investment from US companies," Lt Gen Jeff Kohler, Boeing's vice president of international business development in defence, Space & Security, said at the Singapore Airshow.
Kohler made the comments on aviation industry-wide speculation about the government increasing FDI in defence sector to 49 per cent from the current 26 per cent, with some expecting an announcement in the near future.
"It has been very difficult to go to our senior corporate leadership and justify an investment in India at 26 per cent FDI," said Kholer.
Kholer said he had often discussed investment potential in the huge Indian market with his colleagues in the aviation industry. "49 per cent or 40+ per cent makes it much more attractive," he said.
"If it truly goes to 49 per cent, it would allow guys like me to go back to the corporate leadership and say now we have an opportunity to go and invest. We can show the rate of returns (on investment) to our shareholders and board of directors," said Kohler.
"We have plans and if they actually changes to 49 per cent in FDI we will have to go back to the more detailed discussions."
He disclosed the Boeing has identified quite a few small and medium enterprises in India which could raise the manufacturing capacity and capabilities. "There are technology companies we want to work with software and other things on a wide variety of systems," he said.
Boeing has a large operation in New Delhi and a Research Centre in Bangalore. "We want companies in India to grow with our business as our partners for the long-term. We want them to be part of our commercial supply chain."
Besides, Boeing held discussions for setting up logistics support centres for the Indian Navy.
"We think the opportunities are still out there," said Kohler, adding that Boeing was continuing discussions with the Indians on various supply options.
Among other businesses and dealings in India, Kohler said Boeing was optimistic of signing a final contract for the supply of Apache and Chinook helicopters by end of this year.
Boeing would also deliver five C17 transport aircraft to the Indian Air Force this year, having delivered five last year.
(PTI)
http://www.investindia.gov.in/?q=defence-sector
Sector Overview
The trajectory of India’s national development is based on the core values of democracy, secularism and peaceful co-existence. A stable and peaceful regional and global environment is necessary to achieve the aim of growth and prosperity for our citizens, according to the Ministry of Defence of India.
India has a land frontier of 15,200 km, a coastline of 7,516.6 km and an exclusive economic zone of 2.2 million sq km, as well as island territories, vital offshore installations and airspace to defend. The Indian forces, therefore, have to be kept prepared and well equipped to repel any external threat.
India's defence spending has grown manifold since the country announced its first defence budget in 1950, to USD 30 billion in 2009-10, according to the Economic Survey 2010-11. Of this, approximately 40% relates to capital expenditure which is currently driven by equipment modernisation programmes in each of the three services — the army, the air force and the navy. India is also amongst the world’s top countries in terms of defence expenditure, including imports of defence hardware. In fact, India currently procures approximately 70% of its equipment needs from abroad, but the government's aim is to reverse this balance and manufacture 70% or more of its defence equipment needs in India. This provides an immense opportunity for both domestic and foreign players in the defence sector.
Defence expenditure is divided into two categories: revenue and capital. Revenue expenditure includes expenditure on pay and allowances, maintenance, transportation and all stores expenditures on utilities, whereas capital expenditure includes creation of assets and expenditure on procurement of new equipment.
As a percentage of GDP, India has been able to maintain defence expenditure within a range of 2% to 3%, in line with other major developed nations, signifying a fairly steady focus on defence within the economy to date. The government, as the sole purchaser of defence equipment, spends heavily with defence expenditure accounting for close to 15% percent of Central government expenditure.
Policy and Promotion
The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is in charge of all defence-related activities spanning the army, navy and air force. The major policies and promotions for the defence sector can be summed up as follows:
26% FDI permissible: Presently, the FDI limit in the Indian defence sector is 26%. The sector was opened for private sector participation in May 2001, with 100% private sector ownership permissible and FDI of up to 26%.
Higher FDI limits in pipeline: The Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion (DIPP) has suggested the FDI limit to be raised to 74% and the proposal is under consideration by the government. When accepted, this will raise foreign investment and enable the transfer of foreign technologies to India.
Increasing capacity: The focus of India’s defence planning is on increasing capacity to meet the needs of the armed forces and to establish a reliable mechanism for inter-service, inter-departmental and multi-level coordination. In the near future, the role of the private and foreign sector is likely to rise to meet the ministry’s goals.
Long-term integrated perspective plan: India’s defence sector needs modernisation as obsolete equipment currently accounts for 50% of equipment, whereas the MoD’s required profile would have this at 30%. The proportion of state-of-the-art equipment also needs to grow from its current level of 15% to 30%. Hence, during the last decade, the Indian defence industry has been in the process of undertaking one of the largest procurement cycles in the world. The current cycle, which includes acquisitions drafted under the long-term integrated perspective plan (LTIPP), is expected to include procurements worth USD 100 billion by 2022.
Big procurement drive: As part of the LTIPP program, the Indian armed forces have announced some significant forthcoming procurements. The largest announced procurement is the USD 10.5 billion MMRCA procurement for 126 combat aircraft, which will be the largest aircraft procurement deal worldwide since the 1990s. There are several other billion dollar-plus deals that are making India’s current procurement cycle one of the most attractive markets for defence companies worldwide. In the survey of CII Defence Division members conducted by KPMG, approximately 62% of the companies believe that the Indian market is an attractive proposition for foreign defence companies owing to India’s large procurement plans.
Dedicated defence SEZs: India’s first SEZ for aerospace in Belgaum, Karnataka, was inaugurated in November 2009. The government is considering the establishment of dedicated SEZs on similar lines catering specifically to the defence sector along the lines of IT, automobile and other specialized SEZs that already exist in the country. This would provide defence manufacturers and service providers (especially foreign companies) a suitable tax friendly environment and also aid in promoting exports of products and services.
Major Players
India maintains an extensive defence industrial base with 40 ordnance factories and eight defence PSUs that are engaged in the manufacture of state-of-the-art weapons and systems for the armed forces. The eight defence PSUs are: Bharat Earth Movers Limited, manufacturing specialized heavy vehicles for defence and re-engineering solutions in automotive and aeronautics; Bharat Dynamics Limited, an engineering company; Bharat Electronics Limited, another engineering company; Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Limited, a transportation equipment manufacturing company; Goa Shipyard Limited, a transportation equipment manufacturing company; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, a transportation equipment manufacturing company; Mazagon Dock Limited, a transportation equipment manufacturing company; and, Mishra Dhatu Nigam, a steel manufacturing company.
In terms of value of production, defence PSUs account for more than 65% of the total industrial output of all defence public sector entities in India. During 2007-08, the value of production by defence PSUs totaled nearly USD 4 billion.
The private sector has been playing a significant role in the defence industry as sub-contractors and ancillary industry, and suppliers of raw materials, semi-finished products, parts and components to defence PSUs, ordnance factories, base workshops of the army, base repair depots of the air force, and the dockyards of the navy, etc.
Foreign companies account for the majority of procurement from the private sector in India, with approximately 70% of Indian defence procurement coming from overseas sources.
Currently, the defence market for private sector firms in India, which includes outsourcing from DPSUs and ordnance factories, is estimated to be worth USD 700 million. This spend is expected to increase steadily with the growing participation of private players in the Indian defence industry.
Major Indian industrial houses such as the Tata Group, Ashok Leyland, Mahindra Group, the Kirloskar Brothers, Larsen and Toubro, and Wipro have diversified into the defence sector, forming joint ventures with foreign companies for both strategic and produce-specific projects. For instance, Wipra has got the Foreign Investment Promotion Board’s (FIPB) approval to manufacture, design and develop software for the Indian defence industry. Wipro has signed an agreement with Swedish defence firm Saab. Under the agreement, Wipro will manufacture, deliver and market Saab's entire suite of land electronic defence systems in India. The land electronic defence system will provide active protection to light and medium combat vehicles, as well as to main battle tanks against engagement by weapons such as rocket propelled grenades, anti-tank missiles, mortars and artillery shells.
Some of the prominent potential deals in the air force sector are: a USD 10,000 million deal for 127 multi-mission role combat aircraft with bidders such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Dassault, UAC, EADS and Saab Gripen; a USD 1,000 million deal for six transport aircraft; a USD 700 million deal for 12 heavy lift helicopters with potential bidders being Boeing, Sikorsky, Bell, Westland, Eurocopter and Mil-MI Design Bureau, etc.
Similarly, some potential deals in the army sector are: a USD 3,000 million deal for 197 light observations/utility helicopters with bidders such as Elbit, Thales, Marconi, Motorola, Ericsson, Raytheon and Honeywell; a USD 1,100 million deal for Future Infantry Soldier as a System (F-INSAS) with bidders such as Elbit, Thales, Marconi, Motorola, Ericsson, Raytheon and Honeywell; and a USD 2,170 million deal for howitzers, etc.
For the Navy, some of the potential deals in the pipeline are: a USD 3,500 million deal for seven Scorpene Submarines; a USD 7,600 million deal for 12 stealth frigates; and a USD 1,000 million deal for 16 multi-role helicopters (MRH). Bidders for all these deals are expected to be companies engaged in electronics, weapons control, fire control, navigation systems, turbine engine manufacturing, generators, standoff weapon systems, etc.
Some of the foreign collaborations for internal security include a tie-up of Raytheon with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for the installation of GPS systems at 100 airports across India at a project cost of USD 22 million; and tie-up of Lockheed Martin with Wipro Technologies for opening up a network centric operations centre in India providing Net-enabled capabilities and solutions for potential civil and military applications.
Sector Outlook
The focus areas for the future are:
Long range, lethal and precision guided munitions.
Merger of the delivery system and warhead into one integrated or cohesive unit.
Mobile weapons systems.
Reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition systems.
The ability to operate at night and in bad conditions.
Communications and information management systems to optimally link sensors to missile-shooting equipment.
Some more factors that are likely to influence the future growth trajectory of the defence sector in India are: further development of the defence procurement process; the formation and implementation of a defence industrialisation strategy to coordinate the use of offsets, transfer of technology, FDI and the public and private sector defence industries in India; and further changes to the taxation regime and incentives.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Mukesh Ambani has donated about 12 cr to BJP and 10cr to Congis a few months ago for elections. I dont have the link but the donations are official and is somewhere in the public domain
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Narendra Modi keeping his enemies close to him by alloting them key ministries , says Ram Jethmalani
So you are saying that LK Advani, Rajnath Singh, Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Nitin Gadkari and Ananth Kumar, were all against Modi becoming the PM?
I don't have the slightest doubt that these people were against Modi becoming the PM, it is true. Specially Arun Jaitley and Sushma Swaraj.
Shouldn't Modi be wary of them, yet he has given many of them big ministries?
It is appeasing, he keeps his enemies closer, he is making sacrifices. However I am not happy with what he has done but then I don't have to bear the responsibility that he does.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Gautam Bardhan, Assam artist draws a Modi portrait with his blood
"jaan nisarane kaum hai ye log"
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I have not read the detail so I may missed a key point or two or many.Suraj wrote:.....I explained there how retail FDI doesn't necessarily align with what matters to us. ..
Here's where (FWIW) I come out: retail FDI (multibrand) is extremely important to getting a quality product out to consumers. For too long, socialist regimes have sacrificed consumers for the sake of 'producers' and 'employment'.
Given that consumer economy is usually the largest component of GDP, ensuring health well being of this sector would seem to be very important. In the US, the consumer spending share of GDP is ~70%. In India, it is ~57% and very sluggish.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... 029404.ece
To get growth, consumers need quality staples that are competitively priced and conveniently obtained. If you subsidize 'dukanwalas' at the expense of the consumer, you're going to skew the system. This is exactly what has happened in Japan: I think everyone knows how much apples, grapefruits and such like cost there, whereas, they are 'add-ons' in the US. Japanese consumers are squeezed so they don't buy houses, new cars, TVs, go to restaurants, movies etc as often if at all. The same applies to Indian consumers.
Forty per cent of India's farm produce never makes it from the farm gate to the consumer's plate. The dukanwala approach kills off any investment by people who have the money and expertise in logistics and refrigeration which would have drastically increased availability of farm produce, lowered prices and made consumers more well off and think about spending on durables which are produced by the manufacturing sector which can use the same kind of people who man shops and give them skills, salary and benefits.
Arun Jaitley is just now pushing 100% in defense FDI so what's the big deal about retail? Always keep the consumer (in AJ's case the Indian military) in mind.
India has ~$315 bn in FX reserves but it also has ~$470 billion in external debt. What saves us is that the duration (in terms of maturity) of the external debt. The FX inflows are heavily short term seeking higher yields. They can turn on a dime.
FDI is the only way to go to pay for the merchandise deficit + the current account deficit.
In a modern economy you cannot afford to sacrifice consumers at the altar of 'employment' of the unemployable
We cannot reinvent economic principles to suit our narrative. FDI in all sectors especially those that use semi/unskilled but trainable labor.
Suraj, bear with me, this is not aimed at you. I'm just seizing on a topic to make a point. Forgiveness requested.
Many (~1976) years ago I was simultaneously asked to look at financing something called 'Samsung Electron Devices' who were proposing to make TVs. The Korea Development Bank would guarantee the financing. Everyone laughed. "Koreans make TV sets?" Come on! Sony with it's 'Trinitron' will eat them for breakfast—cheap stuff. Well, you know the story. Next day or so, a client wanted to make a significant investment in India involving hiring women to assemble electronic components. Apparently women could do the assembly better than men because they had longer attentions spans and more slender fingers (whatever). A huge (for the time) investment was lined up. Guess what? the IG government said (privately) : "Assembly line work is an indignity inflicted on the worker. To expect them to do 'unthinking, repetitive work' is to fly in the face of everything we stand for.
Korean wimmenz got the work. Indian wimmenz got dignity.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
There is an anecdote about US president carter, that when he was choosing the 'code' for the 'football' which every president has to, he was given a card with few sequences and as he chose one he was told that this, 'number' will also be kept for launch in some bunker in case something 'unthinkable' happens. "you mean if they take me out in a first strike" asked carter, "Oh don't worry sir vmh-1 marine helicopter is always ready to take you away from danger, they're on the standby day night for this...."Singha wrote: POTUS has short circuited the issue by building a helipad on WH lawn itself. hope there are speedy electric rail inside to cover 1.5km inside of 3 minutes.
POTUS also has some deep bunker under his house and we should too.
"hmmm well" said carter "tell them I want to be picked now....." which resulted in the humiliation of marines as the helicopter was in workshop for last few weeks, so they couldn't pick him up
From clancy's "Executive Orders" novel.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Recent moves by US Tax enforcement to get Swiss banks to waive their secrecy has been in the news. Several countries in Africa and other parts of the world, whose corrupt elites siphoned off funds, have availed of the opportunity to repatriate substantial sums of money. Any reason you say less than 15% will come back?panduranghari wrote:Less than 15% black money will come back.
People need to be named and shamed.
If and ONLY if, all the known money returns, there will be a depreciation of the rupee. Not a good idea. better to hold it offshore and buy arms or buy assets overseas.
Every person holding black money should be made an example of. No other deterent will work.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Cosmo_R: I don't see how any of your statements address the question of FDI in retail, and what the problems affecting it are. Your argument is "opposition to FDI in retail is tantamount to wishing for existing dukanwala system". I'm sorry, but it's nothing like that. I really suggest you read the latest posts in the economics thread and weigh in as you prefer. But I don't think this latest post of yours is much more than a general diatribe against poor government policy in the past.
'FDI in retail' is viewed as some kind of picture of a nice clean sterile store aisle that would be magically transplanted to our shore if it were permitted. There's a hell of a lot more detail than that. In fact, I would wager that if you asked 10 persons here to clearly explain what 'FDI in retail' (or even 'FDI in defence') is, you'll get 10 different answers. Such is the lack of understanding of what is involved.
The last mile, in the form of the clean store aisle, is the least pertinent matter in the whole topic. The meat of the topic lies behind the scenes - in the backend logistics, supply chain expertise, and more. Refridgeration and transport depends on good roads/rail and electricity. Anyone thinking that frontend retail needs expertise and capital is missing out on a lot of detail. The bulk of what is needed lies in the backend. FDI in retail will not solve that. In fact, it will harm the solution because it will trigger unnecessarily social and political opposition. The history of UPA policymaking is full of examples of supposedly good ideas so poorly implemented that they're a political liability more than a legacy.
'FDI in retail' is viewed as some kind of picture of a nice clean sterile store aisle that would be magically transplanted to our shore if it were permitted. There's a hell of a lot more detail than that. In fact, I would wager that if you asked 10 persons here to clearly explain what 'FDI in retail' (or even 'FDI in defence') is, you'll get 10 different answers. Such is the lack of understanding of what is involved.
The last mile, in the form of the clean store aisle, is the least pertinent matter in the whole topic. The meat of the topic lies behind the scenes - in the backend logistics, supply chain expertise, and more. Refridgeration and transport depends on good roads/rail and electricity. Anyone thinking that frontend retail needs expertise and capital is missing out on a lot of detail. The bulk of what is needed lies in the backend. FDI in retail will not solve that. In fact, it will harm the solution because it will trigger unnecessarily social and political opposition. The history of UPA policymaking is full of examples of supposedly good ideas so poorly implemented that they're a political liability more than a legacy.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
"Jao pehle uss aurat ka sign leke aao jisne mujhe kathputli banaa kar taang rakha hai..."negi wrote:Gentlemards yesterday I actually went to PMO website and wrote to the PM, I got a response with signature reading "Narendra Modi". I realize this is auto generated reply but I wanted to know did MMS too have one ?
(go first bring the signature of that woman who has made a puppet out of me hanging on PMO wall)
This used to be the PMO website's response in mms' time on deewar's line:
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/how-m ... id=twshare
Assem Shukla on how Modi baiting back fired in the US... a good read
Assem Shukla on how Modi baiting back fired in the US... a good read
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
What does FDI in retail mean?
If it means the walmart like multi-brand retail sellers then it will come with the associated logistic chains. But the concern is this logistic chain need not be domestic. A walmart, in say US, currently imports 70-80% of its merchandise from China. Such a venture will require only the last point supply China in India meaning the port to store connectivity. This applies even to perishable goods, as one can see in Costcos and Walmarts of US.
There are numerous studies on Walmart and it was conclusively proven that there is minimum to no value addition to local infrastructure UNLESS Walmart decides to do so. Walmart already has the worldwide logistics chain well integrated all the way into China's factories and it would be unwise for them to procure from Indian manufactures.
On this very forum, erudite members argued that even the visibly simple sector like toys industry will require huge economies of scale, automated mfg to make it competitive w.r.t China's factories.
So what will Walmart procure from local markets?
Walmarts and other multi-brand retailers will not invest in local infrastructure on their own. They just bring in few thousand heavy trucks and build some large warehouses at strategic points and use that to outwit local competitors. This is of no value addition to Indian infra. Many local retailers are doing this already.
What does India really needs in retail sector?
What India needs in retail sector is the supply-chain infrastructure. Once this infrastructure is in place, the existing sale-outlets themselves become more cost-effective.
This is where India needs FDI, if any. This retail supply-chain relies heavily on strong industrial/civic infrastructure. This is where Nitin Gadkar's portfolio comes in to picture.
So the real FDI, even from retail sector, we need is in infrastructure. Not multi-brand retail; which is nothing but a massive sales-outlet shed sitting on top of a very efficient industrial/civic infra.
If it means the walmart like multi-brand retail sellers then it will come with the associated logistic chains. But the concern is this logistic chain need not be domestic. A walmart, in say US, currently imports 70-80% of its merchandise from China. Such a venture will require only the last point supply China in India meaning the port to store connectivity. This applies even to perishable goods, as one can see in Costcos and Walmarts of US.
There are numerous studies on Walmart and it was conclusively proven that there is minimum to no value addition to local infrastructure UNLESS Walmart decides to do so. Walmart already has the worldwide logistics chain well integrated all the way into China's factories and it would be unwise for them to procure from Indian manufactures.
On this very forum, erudite members argued that even the visibly simple sector like toys industry will require huge economies of scale, automated mfg to make it competitive w.r.t China's factories.
So what will Walmart procure from local markets?
Walmarts and other multi-brand retailers will not invest in local infrastructure on their own. They just bring in few thousand heavy trucks and build some large warehouses at strategic points and use that to outwit local competitors. This is of no value addition to Indian infra. Many local retailers are doing this already.
What does India really needs in retail sector?
What India needs in retail sector is the supply-chain infrastructure. Once this infrastructure is in place, the existing sale-outlets themselves become more cost-effective.
This is where India needs FDI, if any. This retail supply-chain relies heavily on strong industrial/civic infrastructure. This is where Nitin Gadkar's portfolio comes in to picture.
So the real FDI, even from retail sector, we need is in infrastructure. Not multi-brand retail; which is nothing but a massive sales-outlet shed sitting on top of a very efficient industrial/civic infra.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
RamaY wrote:Please read about Rockefillers & Rothies first.Jarita wrote:Unlike the Rockefellers and Rothies there is no nation building. The big industrial houses of the west really contributed to local society and economy as so businesses houses like Tatas, Birlas etc.
Ambanis seem to be quite extractive
I have read extensively and they really contributed to the local economies and their nations even if the extracted from the colonies, India being the biggest one.
They funded museums, art, literature, education, think tanks and what have you.
The Ambanis fund Antilla. They take, take and don't give back. Infact, they have twisted govt arms to the detriment of the Indian nation to enrich themselves and their backers.
Compared to the western houses, they are awful
I had heard that the Tatas were connected to the House of Rocthschild in France. Not sure
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Tata's ancestral linkage to opium trade is a known entity ,including their liaisons with a shady Jewish family,whose descendants are still on Board of Tata sons . But I am unaware of Ambanis link to the opium business . Could you provide some literature ?ramana wrote:BJB were under Indian control and now in deep decline.
Two have hafeem origins.
Ambanis are under Rockefeller control.
Tatas are under Rothschild control.
And under hafeem origins.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Ambani is a recent house. They are backed by older houses but they had no connection with Opium trade
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Exchange of tax information between Mauritius and India benefits Mauritius NOT India
I have explained in detail on my facebook post at https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 6546311922 . The whole status isnt printable here. So I will only print main portion here.
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FDI is worse than debt. Debt breaks a person or a nation when time to repay comes. But at least debt is scheduled i.e. loan taker knows on which date he has to pay how much capital and interest back in dollars or rupees. The loan giver cannot ask for immediate payment of entire capital and interest on any day. Whereas FDI bringer can ask for immediate repayment of his capital plus more in dollars anyday. As an example, say FDI of $ 100 billion is brought by an MNC-owners and he does business for say X years. Now any day, that MNC-owner can sell all his assets in India and ask GoI to give back the proceeds of sale of his assets . The proceeds will be equal to ( capital + accumulated profits - accumulated losses - payable taxes + capital appreciations - capital depreciations). He can demand all repayment in dollars any day. So if FDI bringers aka MNC-owners synchronize a massive pullout, i.e. all stage a pullout on oneday, then within few days, they can create extreme forex shortage which can break nation in pieces. Now say FDI bringers dont sell their capital, but they just demand complete repayment of (accumulated profits - accumulated loses - payable taxes) in dollars, then that alone can create a huge shortage of dollars in India and break India's financial conditions. Solutions are all OST and are at my FB post at https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 7947121922
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Opposition to FDI in retail is ONLY a cover to take the focus away from the FACT that all leaders are supporting FDI in other sectors. It is lizard dropping its tail so that predators focuses on the tail and lizard can escape.
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ZeeTv says "Narendra Modi's life to be included in Gujarat school syllabus" at http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/na ... 35937.html . Wait and watch, NaMo will ask them to remove it.
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I post only 1-4 posts per day on BR. So I wont be able to reply to your posts. If you wish to know the replies, then please post your comments on FB.
I have explained in detail on my facebook post at https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 6546311922 . The whole status isnt printable here. So I will only print main portion here.
The rest is political. Please see the link.[Mauritius treaty ...] says that if Mauritius company earns profits of say Rs. 1000 crore India , then it has OPTION of paying Rs 30 crore in Mauritius or Rs 350 crore in India. Obviously , company would prefer to pay Rs. 30 crore in Mauritius . Now what some companies used to do is that on their tax return in India, they would write "paid Rs 30 crore tax in Mauritius " and then claim exemption on Rs 350 crore tax payable in India. And then they would NOT even pay Rs 30 in Mauritius . Now Mauritius will inform GoI whether that company has actually paid Rs 30 crore in Mauritius or not. If not, then GoI can collect Rs 350 crore in India. So obviously, now company is NOT going to pay Rs 350 crore in india. Instead, it would pay Rs 30 crore in Mauritius as it said on the return. IOW, the exchange of tax information between Mauritius and India benefits Mauritius NOT India !!! ....
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FDI is worse than debt. Debt breaks a person or a nation when time to repay comes. But at least debt is scheduled i.e. loan taker knows on which date he has to pay how much capital and interest back in dollars or rupees. The loan giver cannot ask for immediate payment of entire capital and interest on any day. Whereas FDI bringer can ask for immediate repayment of his capital plus more in dollars anyday. As an example, say FDI of $ 100 billion is brought by an MNC-owners and he does business for say X years. Now any day, that MNC-owner can sell all his assets in India and ask GoI to give back the proceeds of sale of his assets . The proceeds will be equal to ( capital + accumulated profits - accumulated losses - payable taxes + capital appreciations - capital depreciations). He can demand all repayment in dollars any day. So if FDI bringers aka MNC-owners synchronize a massive pullout, i.e. all stage a pullout on oneday, then within few days, they can create extreme forex shortage which can break nation in pieces. Now say FDI bringers dont sell their capital, but they just demand complete repayment of (accumulated profits - accumulated loses - payable taxes) in dollars, then that alone can create a huge shortage of dollars in India and break India's financial conditions. Solutions are all OST and are at my FB post at https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 7947121922
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Opposition to FDI in retail is ONLY a cover to take the focus away from the FACT that all leaders are supporting FDI in other sectors. It is lizard dropping its tail so that predators focuses on the tail and lizard can escape.
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ZeeTv says "Narendra Modi's life to be included in Gujarat school syllabus" at http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/na ... 35937.html . Wait and watch, NaMo will ask them to remove it.
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I post only 1-4 posts per day on BR. So I wont be able to reply to your posts. If you wish to know the replies, then please post your comments on FB.
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 30 May 2014 07:28, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Maybe OT but given that Modi and NDA have publicly humiliated Saint response, MMS response and Chidu response to Pak terrorism it is almost a given that Modi's response to any napaki mis-adventure will be swift and harsh. Question is what will be napaki response to our response? And what will be Khan response. Obviously Khan will be stuck in its war on terror in AfPak. My take is that there will not be any major terror attacks that can be traced to Pak. Border skirmishes may still happen but Pak will not force Modi's hand.habal wrote:TSPA would be quite confused at the turn of events. Usually all they have to factor in (like that Fair video enlists) all the factors which would have been ticked by any new Indian administration and they they would get an invisible go-ahead from virginia. It's like new govt: check; aggressive posture: check; non-cooperation with US: check ... all conventional wisdom tells the pakis to go ahead and do an operation like 26/11, Kargil, 93 bomb blasts, mumbai train blasts, punjab insurgency, kashmir insurgency etc. But wht will be response .. they are not able to convincingly game this.
give peace a chance, destroy ...
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
They have funded ORF, one of the leading Indian think tanks, for quite a while. Also they run schools and universities - which are very good but perhaps not Ivy league level.Jarita wrote:The Ambanis fund Antilla. They take, take and don't give back. Infact, they have twisted govt arms to the detriment of the Indian nation to enrich themselves and their backers.
Compared to the western houses, they are awful
As for twisting govt arms to favor themselves - the Western houses do that just as much as Indian ones.
The Ambanis came up 100 years after the Rockefellers. Give them time...
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
all these patrician upper east side types funding museums and parks came about a few decades after they had enriched themselves immensely. before that, were building sumptuous mansions in newport, RI while exploiting viciously the miners, railroad workers, steel workers and shophouse labour in their own country. the american robber barons did not have to rely on colonial exploitation...there were enough local resources, markets and labour to exploit. america itself was a colony, the biggest ever.
amrika had reached nearly 100% functional literacy and primary healthcare by 1920s.
so dont fall into the usual NRI trap of comparing their wealthy to our wealthy. their wealthy were super wealthy in the 1850s when the ancestors of Dhirubhai were dragging their plough or herding cows in some arid corner of the land, with rapacious bartania tax collectors everyone was barely on edge of survival.
amrika had reached nearly 100% functional literacy and primary healthcare by 1920s.
so dont fall into the usual NRI trap of comparing their wealthy to our wealthy. their wealthy were super wealthy in the 1850s when the ancestors of Dhirubhai were dragging their plough or herding cows in some arid corner of the land, with rapacious bartania tax collectors everyone was barely on edge of survival.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Expected you would say this.Jarita wrote: I have read extensively and they really contributed to the local economies and their nations even if the extracted from the colonies, India being the biggest one.
They funded museums, art, literature, education, think tanks and what have you.
The Ambanis fund Antilla. They take, take and don't give back. Infact, they have twisted govt arms to the detriment of the Indian nation to enrich themselves and their backers.
Compared to the western houses, they are awful
I had heard that the Tatas were connected to the House of Rocthschild in France. Not sure
1/ Reliance refinery single handedly made a turn around in India's positioning in oil industry. Earlier India was simply importing its energy needs. With reliance refinery we make about $4-5b profits by exporting refinery products.
2/ the art/lit/think tanks came much later in the game, often when they walked out of the core industries they were in. I am sure ambanies are buying many paintings which they will end up donating to museums of 2100s.
3/ what is the point of building & supporting sepoy think tanks, that would support dynastic/colonial structures? We should be happy that we don't have well-funded and well-entrenched think tanks. Look at the damage being done by less sophisticated NGOs.
4/ Let's not make having & enjoying wealth a sin. This is exactly what dhimmitude & intellectual slavery is. Why is it ok for a $20k making IT engineer to own a $200k house but not ok for a $40b networth Ambani to have a $1b home?
5/ ambanies will give their wealth to the society as and when they like. All we need from them for now is to invest their wealth in economic activities (unlike shipping them to Swiss banks) and create employment and industry. This is not time for museums and art galleries. More over 54.6% of wealth created by Reliance is in public's hand directly & indirectly.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I agree with several points you make. In addition, I agree that making and enjoying wealth is not a sin. In fact quite prescribed by Purushartha. The same Purushartha cautions in enjoying artha under dharma. So while you might arithmetically bring out the proportion of income and expense, it is simply not a necessity for somebody to own a $1b home. Dharma (sustainability) is not just at the individual level but at the societal level as well. You might point out Rajahs and Maharajash did that, Taj Mahal, and big temples are all a sign of such display of wealth, prosperity, bhakti etc; still such actions should not be the norm among the uber rich and should not be condoned.RamaY wrote: 4/ Let's not make having & enjoying wealth a sin. This is exactly what dhimmitude & intellectual slavery is. Why is it ok for a $20k making IT engineer to own a $200k house but not ok for a $40b networth Ambani to have a $1b home?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Rhetorical question. But I will answer for principle sake (IMHO there is too much nonsensical self-flagging going on threadbare).SwamyG wrote:I agree with several points you make. In addition, I agree that making and enjoying wealth is not a sin. In fact quite prescribed by Purushartha. The same Purushartha cautions in enjoying artha under dharma. So while you might arithmetically bring out the proportion of income and expense, it is simply not a necessity for somebody to own a $1b home. Dharma (sustainability) is not just at the individual level but at the societal level as well. You might point out Rajahs and Maharajash did that, Taj Mahal, and big temples are all a sign of such display of wealth, prosperity, bhakti etc; still such actions should not be the norm among the uber rich and should not be condoned.RamaY wrote: 4/ Let's not make having & enjoying wealth a sin. This is exactly what dhimmitude & intellectual slavery is. Why is it ok for a $20k making IT engineer to own a $200k house but not ok for a $40b networth Ambani to have a $1b home?
What we should look for in this scenario is
1/ Is the wealth earned in a Dharmic manner: Here dharma is mainly defined by legal ways of earning, taxes paid etc. If Ambanis didn't do that, let's put them in jail and confiscate their properties.
2/ Is the wealth spent in a Dharmic manner: constructing a home is dharma. It doesn't matter how big/small that house is. What matters is is the house built following the building code, labor laws, import rules etc or not. Again if Ambanis stepped on any rules, we must send them to jail.
Assuming these two weren't trampled (Ambanis didn't go to jail, yet) I would call their $1b a Dharmic venture. Accumulation of wealth is not Dharmic, it must be spent whichever way possible and Ambanis are doing good job with their houses, yachts, private jet etc.,
If at all, I would criticize Ambanis for building such an ugly building after spending $1b. They could have built an architectural wonder with that money. Perhaps they don't enjoy architecture, perhaps they didn't want to appear pompous hence built an ugly building... I respect their preference.
Tajmahal wasnt a Dharmic building for many reasons. There are questions about the original owners of the building to begin with. Even if we assume its a new building, there are Mughal records which talked about use forced labor and cutting/killing of architects at the end etc. If we are truly Dharmic, we should destroy Tajmahal because it is built in Adharmic manner, however beautiful/valuable it is.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
RamaY,
You have made very good points, regarding Artha and enjoyment. But out in the wider world, we have a lot of people particularly in the INC system who deride the pursuit of wealth. Not just that, they regard any one who is in pursuit of wealth as a low life, or worst a criminal.
What is it about the INC system that makes them treat wealth this way. Is this because they are a bunch of hypocrites or is it just plain envy, disguised as intellectualism.
I am sorry, if my question comes across as OT.
You have made very good points, regarding Artha and enjoyment. But out in the wider world, we have a lot of people particularly in the INC system who deride the pursuit of wealth. Not just that, they regard any one who is in pursuit of wealth as a low life, or worst a criminal.
What is it about the INC system that makes them treat wealth this way. Is this because they are a bunch of hypocrites or is it just plain envy, disguised as intellectualism.
I am sorry, if my question comes across as OT.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
a $1b building will need 1000 staff to secure and maintain it - permanently. plus I understand some floors are offices as well. so its a mixed use property. most of the materials & labour that went into it would be local.
I do not see the same degree of muharram over APPL spending a lot of $$ on its spaceship donut building,
using glass panels specially made in germany, TGV grade tolerances for concrete casts and so on. and its not even their money but owned by the shareholders.
I do not see the same degree of muharram over APPL spending a lot of $$ on its spaceship donut building,
using glass panels specially made in germany, TGV grade tolerances for concrete casts and so on. and its not even their money but owned by the shareholders.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
when world bank gives a loan to a developing country, a commission (say 2% or in some cases even 5%) of that loan is deposited directly into a swiss bank account created in name of the leaders of such countries. A bank a/c username and pass code are the only thing that are sent to the leader and no cash exchange need happen. That is how bribery and corruption are encouraged in developing countries. IN some cases WB loans are not needed, so higher commissions are given to accept that loan. This is how huge benami accounts end up in swiss banks and we need not even know the exact extent.
About Ambani link with rockefeller, there is a saying in malayalam (ela nakki pattiyude kiri nakki patti) which means nothing but here you have a hapless fellow who lives off leaves and then there is another hopeless one who lives off the former. Even rockefeller may do some philanthropy, but expecting Ambani to do it is a bit tough on Ambani. Anyways, Shri Ambani has decided to put his eggs in the Indian basket, and that is enough for now. There are plenty of Indian business magnets who have taken wealth and themselves offshore. So atleast Ambani deserves credit on that account. btw mittal of arcelor mittal is also another rothie front onlee.
About Ambani link with rockefeller, there is a saying in malayalam (ela nakki pattiyude kiri nakki patti) which means nothing but here you have a hapless fellow who lives off leaves and then there is another hopeless one who lives off the former. Even rockefeller may do some philanthropy, but expecting Ambani to do it is a bit tough on Ambani. Anyways, Shri Ambani has decided to put his eggs in the Indian basket, and that is enough for now. There are plenty of Indian business magnets who have taken wealth and themselves offshore. So atleast Ambani deserves credit on that account. btw mittal of arcelor mittal is also another rothie front onlee.
Last edited by habal on 30 May 2014 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Minor correction. There is the one which is Elanakki pattiyude, chiri nakki patti (There is one dog which gets food from the left over of others, and yet another dog which licks of the food items from the cheeks/nose of the first one). The proverb does not have any thing against Nairs - a community .habal wrote:About Ambani link with rockefeller, there is a saying in malayalam (ela nakki nairyude kiri nakki nair)
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
As expected.
Don't include my life struggle in school curriculum: PM Modi
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/05/30/d ... 28746.html
Don't include my life struggle in school curriculum: PM Modi
http://www.niticentral.com/2014/05/30/d ... 28746.html
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
A population to a large extend is divided into employees/self employed, employers and unemployed. Corporates are important and integral part of the ecosystem, whatever the way they are. And hence given the might of ambanis I assumed 1/3rd battle is won/lost there.Jarita wrote:abhijitm wrote:I think Cong lost 1/3rd of the battle when Ambanis sided with Modi before the election. History aside they are now firmly behind BJP this time. IMO.
Is that a good influence?
I had read on the J&K thread that they were the key drivers behind the Indo Pak peace talks. They are very short term moolah motivated and frankly have shown no fealty to the nation. Unlike the Rockefellers and Rothies there is no nation building. The big industrial houses of the west really contributed to local society and economy as so businesses houses like Tatas, Birlas etc.
Ambanis seem to be quite extractive
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
^Would that be when she is rotting in Tihar or when she is cowering in Europe?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Now Muslims also are deserting the Congies.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740885.cms
Things are getting better by the day.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 740885.cms
Things are getting better by the day.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Arunji, my reference was to Rajdeep Sardesai who doesn't stop singing praises of Sonia.Arun Menon wrote:^Would that be when she is rotting in Tihar or when she is cowering in Europe?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Ya, got that . The question was to Mr. Bugeye.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Hats off to PM once again for his integrity.Shamlee wrote:As expected.
Don't include my life struggle in school curriculum: PM Modi
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I am sure if Congi sycophants had proposed to include Sonia's life in school curriculum, she would not have refused.matrimc wrote:Hats off to PM once again for his integrity.Shamlee wrote:As expected.
Don't include my life struggle in school curriculum: PM Modi
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Sorry for misunderstanding.Arun Menon wrote:Ya, got that . The question was to Mr. Bugeye.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Rudradev saar had written a post on fetishization of poverty.Pratyush wrote:RamaY,
You have made very good points, regarding Artha and enjoyment. But out in the wider world, we have a lot of people particularly in the INC system who deride the pursuit of wealth. Not just that, they regard any one who is in pursuit of wealth as a low life, or worst a criminal.
What is it about the INC system that makes them treat wealth this way. Is this because they are a bunch of hypocrites or is it just plain envy, disguised as intellectualism.
I am sorry, if my question comes across as OT.
Link to postRudradev wrote:Cross-posting a post I made in the GDF, which Rajesh A ji thought might be relevant here.
I would caution very strongly against applying such categories as "Capitalist", "Socialist", "Liberal", or even "Right-wing" and "Left-wing" to anything within the Indian system. Not just because they are foreign, but because the very assumptions from which these classifications derive are completely disjointed from an Indian worldview.
For example, there is a pernicious idea that the traditional Vaishya Dharma, or the relationship of Indian mercantile classes to wealth, is essentially "capitalist." This could not be further from the truth. "Capitalism" is a form of sophistry developed by the apologist Adam Smith to philosophically justify the accumulation of wealth as a natural outcome of Protestant work ethic, in the face of pre-existing memes in Western materialism that glorified poverty. Socialism is a response to Capitalism that re-establishes the glorification of poverty without the earlier tone of overt religiosity. This entire back-and-forth proceeds across a playing field whose geography is dictated by the contours of Western Materialism. The precepts of Western Materialism themselves could not be further removed from the way in which Vaishya Dharma regards the concepts of wealth and prosperity.
Indian Vaishya Dharma is nothing at all like Capitalism, because in our view, the accumulation of wealth is itself a task consonant with divinity; there is no sophistry required, and nothing to apologize for. To cast one thing in the mold of the other, is like asking Pt. Bhimsen Joshi to sing Raga Maalkauns in "F sharp minor, allegro moderato". It's meaningless.
It's well known that Hindu civilization produced a nation with a quarter of global GDP share, even as late as the 1750s when Islamist colonialism and plunder had shafted us for a thousand years ( I wonder what the figure would have been in Skanda Gupta's day.) History as written by Abrahamic Materialists will attribute this simply to the fact that India was blessed with natural resources and a convenient location on many trade routes; meanwhile, it will characterize the Indian people themselves as lazy and detached from worldly reality, as opposed to the hard-working Europeans whose enterprising spirit made them colonial masters of the planet.
The truth, of course, is that Indians have always had a civilizational sense of what constitutes a healthy relationship with artha. It is one of the purusharthas, an aim of human existence whose fulfillment enhances an individual's proximity to the supreme. Artha-shastra, or economics, is the science of managing God-given resources, and hence an entirely noble pursuit. The idea of wealth as an abstraction of these resources is a concept sparked by divine inspiration, and wealth itself a manifestation of divinity. Some observers correctly allude to this when they mention that Lakshmi is worshiped in India, but it would be entirely wrong to conclude that such traditions have anything to do with "capitalism."
While this view of artha is what continues to inform many Indian businesspersons and business families as they go about their work today, it is not what defines any discussion of economics at the social or political levels... not even, sadly to say, in India. Those discussions are completely overwhelmed by the Neo-Abrahamic worldview of wealth, wherein an imposed dialectic of "development vs. social justice", "capitalism vs. socialism", "rich vs. poor" underlies any argument made by *both* sides of the debate.
I say "Neo-Abrahamic" here because to give credit where it is due, the original Abrahamics-- the Jews-- have always had a healthier relationship with the concept of wealth, much more like our own albeit with different philosophical grounding. Together with the fact that Jews don't engage in predatory conversion, this trait is a saving grace of their civilization which will make the Hebrews quite possible for Indic civilization to co-exist and even cooperate with, in the long run.
With Christianity, Islamism and Marxism, the very notion of wealth has been twisted into something so vastly different that it is quite incompatible with the way India has traditionally regarded prosperity, and the way in which we need to regard it once more in order to achieve success on our own terms.
Beginning with Christianity, a new dialectic of Western Materialism was imposed upon all social, political and historical narrative. By controlling this underlying dialectic, religious institutions in Christianity and Islam assured their own supremacy over the debate at both ends, and positioned themselves as ultimate arbiters of justice between the opposing camps. Later on, the youngest of the Abrahamic spawn... Marxism... may have done away with "God", but it still held on to this fundamental philosophical mother-lode from which both "Capitalism" and "Socialism" sprang, under the name of "Dialectical Materialism". That's how powerful it is, as a lever for the control of historical narrative... and therefore, of history itself.
So what are the principles of this dialectic, and how are they incompatible with Vaishya Dharma?
1) The Transference of Responsibility:
In the Indian view, karma ensures that ultimately, every individual is responsible for his or her own actions. For this reason, the accumulation of wealth, the pursuit of Vaishya-dharma, the generation of artha are noble pursuits as long as they are conducted as all good work must be; i.e., without falling prey to the egotistical temptations of raaga (craving) or dvesha (repulsion.)
Karma has no place in the neo-Abrahamic worldview; for, if individuals were to be considered ultimately responsible for their own actions, how could any institution claim a privileged position as the authoritative narrator of history (including the authentication of specific "divine interventions")? Also, what need would there be for messiahs, prophets and revelations if individuals were capable of achieving their own salvation?
For this reason, Western Materialism transfers the "responsibility" for sins to the object of raaga/dvesha... wealth itself... from those who succumb to these foibles. Hence, "money is the root of all evil." Hence, Jesus "threw out the money changers from the temple".
In the final analysis, the promise that the power-brokers of Neo-Abrahamism hold out is that of "salvation" by an external "saviour". The Christian Judgment Day, its Muslim equivalent, and the Marxist revolution to bring about a "stateless society" are all manifestations of this empty promise... follow us, and we will bring about change, because there is no way you can hope to save your puny selves. Individual responsibility has at best a limited temporal role (to live a life free of doctrinally-mandated "sins") , and no ultimate role at all. The Transference of Responsibility is therefore fundamental to all Neo-Abrahamic doctrine, and in its economic form, manifests as Western Materialism.
2) The Fetishization of Poverty:
The concept of the "beautiful poor" is something that the Church, the Ulema and the Marxists have always held out to less deprived classes as a romanticized ideal of the human condition. This can be observed in century after century of cultural references from the neo-Abrahmic world, such as in literature or poetry, wherein the poor are invariably romanticized as somehow "noble", "simple", "honest", "good" and otherwise characterized by an idyllic homogeneity.
From the Christian point of view, the "beautiful poor" represent an opportunity for the "haves" to achieve salvation through that most insidious of socio-economic processes: "charity". The rich were told that to go to heaven, they had to give money away to the poor: Jesus even spoke some sage words about how it was easier for a camel to pass through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter heaven (this has to be one of the worst mixed metaphors in the literature of Western civilization, but anyway.)
Charity, as defined in Neo-Abrahamic doctrine, is a terrible thing for any society. It isn't the same thing as upliftment; in fact, it is the enemy of upliftment. When pursued for its own sake ... as the power-brokers of neo-Abrahamic civilizations have invariably mandated... Charity fosters dependency, and ensures the need for more Charity in turn, generation after generation. The power-brokers of Neo-Abrahamism, be they Church, Mullahs or Socialist Parties, are the only real beneficiaries of Charity. They alone retain the power to grant approval, salvation or absolution to the "haves" who hand over their wealth to the "have-nots". It is through their agency alone that the mechanics of Charity must be implemented.
Everyone from the early Christians to the modern Left has needed a "beautiful poor" as the objectified focus for their programs of "charity". It is integral to all of their schemes that the poor be kept poor for exactly this purpose.
Consider what Aatish Tasseer has said about Arundhati Roy in this regard:
Because they fetishize poverty, and use Charity as a mechanism to reinforce their own power... the power-brokers of Neo-Abrahamism are fundamentally against upliftment. Of all social classes, they hate the rising middle class the most.I don’t think she’s a friend of the poor at all. She would like to doom them to a permanent state of picturesque poverty. They are beautiful to her–the poor–beautiful, benign and faceless. And that is exactly how she wants them to stay. Let me say also that it is not the poor who animate her politics. Oh, no! The people who get her into the streets are the new middle classes. This class, still among the most fragile in India, people who have newly emerged from the most dire conditions, are despicable to her. She mocks their clothes; their trouble with English; she hates their ambitions; when India wins the cricket and she sees them celebrating, her skin crawls; she wants, more than anything, to do these people down. And it is her overwhelming hatred of them that allows her to be a friend of movements that are seemingly far apart. The jihadists, the Maoists, the Kashmir movement, the anti-development people…they’re all her friends. Anyone who can prove a credible threat to the future of India is a friend of that woman. I would go so far as to say she has a prurient fascination with the enemies of India. And where do they love her? In Pakistan, and in the faculty rooms of Europe and America. No surprise there.
Also, this business of pretending she’s a lone voice in the wilderness. What rubbish! At least have the good grace to admit that not one thing she says is provocative or new; it is perfectly banal. And we know how well the universities Europe and America reward this bogus cant!
3) The Absolution from Guilt:
The Fetishization of Poverty is one side of the Western Materialist coin, facing the poor; on its other side is the promise of Absolution from Guilt, offered by neo-Abrahamic power brokers to the rich.
By maintaining a "beautiful poor" class, the neo-Abrahamics are able to justify Socialism. By offering Absolution from Guilt, the neo-Abrahamics relieve Capitalists of any qualms they may feel about the accumulation of wealth, and yet maintain a philosophical environment in which people who become wealthy automatically feel guilt that needs to be absolved. Invariably, the process by which the rich are offered Absolution involves the same old scam... some form of Charity... in which neo-Abrahamic power-brokers always play a central and privileged role.
In Vaishya-Dharma a clear distinction is made; it is not money, but raaga/dvesha that is the wellspring of adharma. Wealth itself will not make you evil simply by possessing it. In Western Materialism, wealth itself carries a taint; yet, that taint can be removed by the intercession of neo-Abrahamic institutions on behalf of a doctrinally-mandated "saviour."
This is what turns Capitalism into essentially a justification for greed... a means to accumulate wealth with as much dvesha as you like, as immorally as you wish... because the Church, Ulema or Party will absolve you of that guilt ultimately. It is this strange, self-perpetuating cycle of guilt and justification that has enabled the West to countenance colonialism, imperialism, slavery, and genocide as acceptable methods of material expansion. In Neo-Abrahamism, there is no need for personal responsibility in your pursuit of artha because, no matter how much suffering you cause to others in acquiring it, you will eventually be absolved by the intercession of an external "saviour." The only caveat is that you must "keep the faith"... i.e., admit the supremacy of the neo-Abrahamic power brokerage concerned.
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The entire dialectic of Western Materialism, then, is rooted in philosophical assumptions that have no basis whatsoever in Indic thought. This is why it is not simply meaningless, but dangerous for us to transplant notions of "right", "left", "liberal", "conservative", "socialist" and "capitalist" into considerations of Indian society, politics and economics. If we internalize this nonsense, we are implicitly granting credence to the very streams of thought whose adherents pillaged our prosperity for a thousand years.
A debate premised on Western Materialism is exactly what has spawned the "pro-poor" sophistry that the INC instrumentalizes as a justification for its platform of plunder. Our insistence on buying into the terminology of this debate ultimately condemns us to what is known, with infinite irony, as a "Hindu Rate of Growth".
Saar,Dhananjay wrote:There is an anecdote about US president carter, that when he was choosing the 'code' for the 'football' which every president has to, he was given a card with few sequences and as he chose one he was told that this, 'number' will also be kept for launch in some bunker in case something 'unthinkable' happens. "you mean if they take me out in a first strike" asked carter, "Oh don't worry sir vmh-1 marine helicopter is always ready to take you away from danger, they're on the standby day night for this...."Singha wrote: POTUS has short circuited the issue by building a helipad on WH lawn itself. hope there are speedy electric rail inside to cover 1.5km inside of 3 minutes.
POTUS also has some deep bunker under his house and we should too.
"hmmm well" said carter "tell them I want to be picked now....." which resulted in the humiliation of marines as the helicopter was in workshop for last few weeks, so they couldn't pick him up
From clancy's "Executive Orders" novel.
this is just propaganda. I don't think one should take these type of novels seriously. One doesn't know the truth. This may indeed be true, or maybe things are much better or maybe things are much worse. All that one can say is we don't know the truth.
I don't understand why Bhaarathiya spirituality is sought to be blamed here. Infact, if anything Bhaarathiya culture, society and spirituality should be credited for being able to withstand such enormous pressures like colonization and even opium. Remember the chinese became totally addicted to opium and the Emperor had to ban it. On the other hand, Bhaarathiyas were largely not addicted to opium on the same scale.SanjayC wrote: Read two books by Amitav Ghosh: Sea of Poppies and River of Smoke. These are historical fiction set in the milieu of 19th century opium trade by EIC to China.
Also read this interview of his:
http://www.mo.be/en/article/amitav-ghos ... -cash-crop
Thanks, saar.
But I noticed one thing in the exchange with Amitav. There seems to be some derision towards Bhaarathiya spirituality.
For example:
Source: http://www.amitavghosh.com/interviews.html#gpm1_3Indians equally, for reasons of shame or guilt or whatever, prefer not to dwell on this. Amar Farooqui once told me that he'd been trying for years to interest his research students in this subject but they just would not touch it. Contemporary India has developed a vision of itself as straitlaced, spiritual etc. and we've chosen to forget that much of modern India was actually built on this drug. Amar Farooqui for example, has shown in his book, Bombay: Opium City that Bombay probably would not exist but for opium.
Yes, the rich elites who became subservient to the colonizers may have imbibed all the perversions, but why should Bhaarathiya spirituality be blamed for it?
Infact, if one sees a pattern: it seems the brits turned towards non-Hindhus mercentiles more and more to do their dirty work. Initially, the work was done by the Hindhu mercentile class. But, later the Hindhu business people were relegated to sidelines because these people had some reservation due to religious issues. On the other hand, parsis(who seem to have been preferred) were much more uninhibited by these issues.
So, why blame spirituality? It seems like a commie tirade. Amitav frequently mentions Farooqi who comes across to me as kangrez sympathizer.
Dharma should not be equated to law, saar. Legal is not same as Dhaarmik. A simple definition of Dharma and Adharma provided by Vyasa isRamaY wrote:
Rhetorical question. But I will answer for principle sake (IMHO there is too much nonsensical self-flagging going on threadbare).
What we should look for in this scenario is
1/ Is the wealth earned in a Dharmic manner: Here dharma is mainly defined by legal ways of earning, taxes paid etc. If Ambanis didn't do that, let's put them in jail and confiscate their properties.
"para-upakaraya punyaya, papaya para-peedanam"
Helping others is Dharma(punyam), harming others is Adharma(papam). Now, I don't care whether others do punyam(Dharma). But, no one should do Adharma(Papam). If someone does it, then the family should punish him. If the family does not, then the state should punish. If the state does not, then the Goddess will.
Manu says that when someone commits a papam(sin), initially they succeed. But, later, they are doomed totally. They lose even what they had initially.
While, it is completely Dhaarmik to earn and enjoy wealth(Artha), it is equally important to understand that wealth should be enjoyed and earned in a responsible manner.
Is the wealth of the rich earned without harming others?
Is the wealth of the rich enjoyed without harming others?
It comes down to percentages. If 20% are harmed and 80% are helped, then such a venture/person is good(Dhaarmik). If 80% are harmed and 20% are helped, then such a venture/person is bad(Adhaarmik).
This is true to an extent, but there are other issues.RamaY wrote:
2/ Is the wealth spent in a Dharmic manner: constructing a home is dharma. It doesn't matter how big/small that house is. What matters is is the house built following the building code, labor laws, import rules etc or not. Again if Ambanis stepped on any rules, we must send them to jail.
a) When some people are enjoying themselves while others are in distress, then those who are enjoying will earn the ill-will of the distressed. Eventually, the distressed will try to get even. (Further, if one believes in Karma, then such a thing is a negative and can have serious consequences)
A person who is wealthy should share his wealth among his friends, dependents and those around. Now, this will seem very unfair because a person has to do all the hardwork himself and bear the consequences of any wrong doing while earning himself. Yet, after earning, he has to share the wealth with many. But, thats how the world is.
Just because someone is not in jail, doesn't mean he is dhaarmik. I am not talking about Ambanis, but in general.RamaY wrote:
Assuming these two weren't trampled (Ambanis didn't go to jail, yet) I would call their $1b a Dharmic venture. Accumulation of wealth is not Dharmic, it must be spent whichever way possible and Ambanis are doing good job with their houses, yachts, private jet etc.,
Building houses for oneself is fine. If someone can spend $1B for a single house for oneself, can't that person spend $1M to get houses for some poor people around his locality? Absolute greed is not good. Kaamam(desire) is not always wrong because Kaamam is also part of purushartha. But Lobham(greed) is wrong. Wanting to accumulate wealth is not wrong. But wanting to enjoy it only oneself is wrong. No one in the world can enjoy the whole wealth of world alone. One has to learn to share. One cannot share when one does not have. One cannot share what one does not have. One has to learn to share what and when one has.
If a person has 10 Rs, he has to do charity within it to some extent. If a person has 10K Cr Rs, then he has to do charity within it to some extent. Only those who give will get(Based on Karma theory). Those who don't give, won't get.(Petti puttali).
Some people are born rich while others are born poor. Those who are born rich must have done some good deeds or great donations to deserve a rich birth. Those who are born poor must not have done any such good deeds or charity. If a person, after being born rich, does not do charity, then he will become poor in future.
There is a Sanskruth subashitha which goes like this:
the beggar goes from house. He is teaching not begging. His teaching is "donate, otherwise you too will become a beggar like me in future."
Completely agreed. I would have build a huge palace type building if I had such funds.RamaY wrote: If at all, I would criticize Ambanis for building such an ugly building after spending $1b. They could have built an architectural wonder with that money.