Siachen News & Discussion

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manjgu
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 19 Apr 2014 17:26

did anyone of u get the siachen book NJ4982...from bloombury publications??

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Apr 2014 23:14

manjgu wrote:did anyone of u get the siachen book NJ4982...from bloombury publications??
I did. But the book is sitting about 8,000 miles away from me at this time. I will get it in my hand next week. But, got it.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 20 Apr 2014 23:44

manjgu wrote:did anyone of u get the siachen book NJ4982...from bloombury publications??


I ordered it from Amazon India and got it within two-days; worth every penny spent. Read it for the insight of what all went into the operation initially especially the human stories - these have been shared by people who were part of the initial build-up and launch of Operation Meghdoot.

One interesting tidbit - The first landing on Siachen took place in 1978 and was undertaken by a Chetak helicopter; funny thing is, Chetak is NOT used on Glacier or in the region anymore. Reason - it is under powered as compared to Cheetah! The pilot quotes an example of SOP to cross from Leh towards Nubra - The chopper flies ~20 feet from the cliff at about 35 knots with the objective of using UP-DRIFT from the mountain side to propel it over the pass...if it misses or does not get the up-drift, it turns sharply back to repeat the maneuver.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 20 Apr 2014 23:46

X-posting from MMS thread:

^^^One another interesting aspect which we've missed - read the year when MMS went to Siachen and declared the 'mountain of peace' nonsense; it is 2005 and this is the very same year Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal prepared the CBM paper with ex-PA Brigadier on de-militarization of Siachen. This paper became the template for the 2012 Atlantic Council of Ottawa CBM paper on withdrawal from Siachen and Track 2 sell-out which we captured on BRF.

Basically, it is Uncle Sam written all over the whole Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek 'piss-process' saga...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Apr 2014 23:50

ShauryaT wrote:
manjgu wrote:did anyone of u get the siachen book NJ4982...from bloombury publications??
I did. But the book is sitting about 8,000 miles away from me at this time. I will get it in my hand next week. But, got it.


What is the correct name of the book and author, please give details if available. TIA

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 20 Apr 2014 23:59

chetak wrote: What is the correct name of the book and author, please give details if available. TIA


http://www.amazon.in/Beyond-NJ-9842-Siachen-Saga/dp/9384052051

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 30 Apr 2014 02:58

Pakistan cannot be trusted.

The Pakistani army has sold a myth to its population that it is deployed eyeball to eyeball with the Indian Army on the Siachen glacier, which it is not.'

'The Indian military has rightly advised the government not to fall for the rather spurious Pakistani demand to demilitarise Siachen.'

Nitin A Gokhale's new book, Beyond NJ9842: The Siachen Saga, focuses on the little-known aspects of Operation Meghdoot -- launched exactly 30 years ago on April 13, 1984 to secure the Siachen glacier, the world's coldest and highest battlefield, from Pakistani occupation. Gokhale, NDTV's Security and Strategic Affairs Editor, spoke to Rediff.com's Vicky Nanjappa:

How has your book been received?

So far, the reaction to the book has been very positive.Even before it has reached the bookstores, there is a buzz, both in the military and among military enthusiasts because Siachen has largely been an unseen and under-reported conflict. Once people came to know that the book's focus is on the human element -- the untold stories of valour, sacrifice, innovation and incredible camaraderie among soldiers serving there -- I have been flooded with queries about the book's actual availability.

How important was Operation Meghdoot for India?

Operation Meghdoot pre-empted Pakistan's plan to occupy the heights leading to the Siachen glacier and link the uninhabited areas between the KarakoramPass and the Saltoro ridge.

Although many pundits have now said, in retrospect, that Siachen does not have any strategic significance (dumb morons), in 1984, both the military and political leadership in India was alarmed enough not to take any chances of a military link up between China and Pakistan. Thirty years later that decision has proved to be correct, given the increasing Chinese footprints in Gilgit-Baltistan and Pakistan's northern areas.

What similarities do you find between Operation Meghdoot and the Kargil war?

There are no similarities, but there is a link. Pervez Musharraf, who was at once in charge of operations against India in the Saltoro-Siachen area, wanted to cut off Ladakh and Siachen by intruding deep across the Line of Control in Kargil.

By doing so he had hoped that India would be forced to withdraw from Siachen. But the Indian military not only pushed back Pakistani intruders from Kargil but also thwarted Musharraf's designs on Siachen in 1999.

Do you agree with the view that Operation Meghdoot antagonised the relations between India and Pakistan?

Of course, it did. But at one time in the 1990s and in mid-2000s, diplomats and 'peaceniks' on both sides saw Siachen as a 'low-hanging' fruit ripe for plucking. Thankfully, better sense has prevailed so far.

What kind of strain does India take for holding on to Siachen? What is the region's real significance?

For a country like India, the financial drain is tolerable.According to my information and research, India has in 30 years spent about Rs 8,000 crore (Rs 80 billion) for deployment on Siachen.The current recurring expenditure per annum is estimated to be about Rs 365 crore (Rs 3.65 billion) -- that is about Rs 1 crore (Rs 10 million) a day. This is a fraction of the current defence budget. According to official figures given out in Parliament in 2007, between 1984 and 2007, 884 soldiers had sacrificed their lives on the glacier.
The real significance of holding on to the glacier lies in India preventing any physical link up between China and Pakistan on the northern borders in the future, however inconceivable it may seem at the moment.

There was talk that an attempt was being made to demilitarise the Siachen glacier. What happens if this proposal goes through?

The Indian military has rightly advised the government not to fall for the rather spurious Pakistani demand to demilitarise Siachen. Firstly, the Indian Army has pointed out that Pakistan, given its past record of reneging on promises, cannot be trusted.Secondly, Pakistan is nowhere near the Siachen glacier. The Pakistani army has sold a myth to its population that it is deployed eyeball to eyeball with the Indian Army on the Siachen glacier, which it is not.

The Pakistani deployments are at much lower altitudes and west of the Saltoro ridge that towers over the Siachen glacier. Pakistani troops cannot even sight the glacier from their own positions.

Is it possible to convert Siachen into a symbol of peace? Can the Pakistanis be trusted on this front?

Not in the conceivable future simply because, as I said, Pakistan cannot be trusted.

If at all there talks do move ahead to close down military deployment in Siachen, what do you think India should insist that Pakistan does?

The Indian military has simply insisted that both sides must authenticate the current deployments on the map, also called the Actual Ground Position Line and ratify it so that later Pakistan cannot go back on it.If Pakistan agrees to do it, the Indian military leadership is willing to consider the proposal.

How do you rate the handling of the United Progressive Alliance government on this issue? What do you think the National Democratic Alliance government would do on the same issue if it came to power?

The UPA government sent some mixed signals on Siachen, but finally went along with the military's advice, prompting some analysts to described it as a case where the military vetoed the political leadership. The NDA, it is expected, will stick to the well-known position of not demilitarising Siachen or withdrawing from Saltoro range.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 05 Jun 2014 23:16

I admit to extreme ignorance upfront, then ask a simple question out of it.

Given indefinite time, why are there not reliable means of communication/travel to where people are sitting. Eg postage stamp sized helipads (cant you take a bigger one in pieces, then assemble it there?)

Its not a hot-zone. What is keeping things from incrementally becoming better?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Jun 2014 00:01

Shreeman wrote:I admit to extreme ignorance upfront, then ask a simple question out of it.

Given indefinite time, why are there not reliable means of communication/travel to where people are sitting. Eg postage stamp sized helipads (cant you take a bigger one in pieces, then assemble it there?)

Its not a hot-zone. What is keeping things from incrementally becoming better?


For same reasons as why there are no hotels on top of Everest.

its isolated, inaccessible and inhospitable.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 00:25

Sid wrote:
Shreeman wrote:I admit to extreme ignorance upfront, then ask a simple question out of it.

Given indefinite time, why are there not reliable means of communication/travel to where people are sitting. Eg postage stamp sized helipads (cant you take a bigger one in pieces, then assemble it there?)

Its not a hot-zone. What is keeping things from incrementally becoming better?


For same reasons as why there are no hotels on top of Everest.

its isolated, inaccessible and inhospitable.


I get your sarcasm, but even mountaineers dont go to live there. Nor are there any postage stamp size helipads.

Why is it better to have two helicopters fall into a chasm. Have they tried to bulid something larger and failed?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 06 Jun 2014 06:23

shreeman...if u have land on a razor sharp ridge to reach a post then the helipad has to be on a ridge... now pray how are you going to build a big helipad on a ridge??

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 06:41

manjgu wrote:shreeman...if u have land on a razor sharp ridge to reach a post then the helipad has to be on a ridge... now pray how are you going to build a big helipad on a ridge??


I dont know, may be that is a good reason. These guys play with bombs and explosives, presume making a big enough hole in the mountain is not impossible in peace time.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Jun 2014 08:30

Shreeman wrote:
manjgu wrote:shreeman...if u have land on a razor sharp ridge to reach a post then the helipad has to be on a ridge... now pray how are you going to build a big helipad on a ridge??


I dont know, may be that is a good reason. These guys play with bombs and explosives, presume making a big enough hole in the mountain is not impossible in peace time.


It looks something like this.

Image

Siachin base camp do have basic amenities. They have built proper helipads wherever possible. This is where the normal political pappi jhappi happens when netas visits Siachin.

Image

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 06 Jun 2014 08:31

AFAIK a lot of infrastructure has been built up over the years including pipelines carrying fuel, cable cars etc. Of course they may not extend to the last mile or where the geography does not permit. It's only due to these measures ( and procedures) that the fatality rate has comedown to close to zero over the years.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 08:43

Sid wrote:
Shreeman wrote:shreeman...if u have land on a razor sharp ridge to reach a post then the helipad has to be on a ridge... now pray how are you going to build a big helipad on a ridge??

I dont know, may be that is a good reason. These guys play with bombs and explosives, presume making a big enough hole in the mountain is not impossible in peace time.


It looks something like this.

Siachin base camp do have basic amenities. They have built proper helipads wherever possible. This is where the normal political pappi jhappi happens when netas visits Siachin.

Image


The other figure didnt show. But this was the point, it looks like it is possible in MANY places there. The problem is, unlike high-seas drilling on an off-shore platform, it is not considered essential to have proper connectivity at every oupost. Make shift will do in most places. If this is the case, it is a shortcoming.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2014 10:20

Sid wrote:
Shreeman wrote:
Given indefinite time, why are there not reliable means of communication/travel to where people are sitting. Eg postage stamp sized helipads (cant you take a bigger one in pieces, then assemble it there?)

Its not a hot-zone. What is keeping things from incrementally becoming better?


For same reasons as why there are no hotels on top of Everest.

its isolated, inaccessible and inhospitable.


You have to carve out the helipad from the terrain of the glacier.

You cannot build a helipad by transporting pieces of it because you will have nowhere to anchor it or build a supporting structure as the glacier is made of compacted and continuously shifting, melting and growing ice

If the glacier contours near a post is small, you will perforce wind up with a small helipad with nil options of enlarging the same.
Last edited by chetak on 06 Jun 2014 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 06 Jun 2014 10:27

Shreeman..where it is possible to build a proper helipad, it has been built. but often there are places where u just cant do it... the topography is such. then it has to be a makeshift/postage sized. there are posts on very very difficult mountain ridges which have to be air maintained...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2014 10:32

manjgu wrote:Shreeman..where it is possible to build a proper helipad, it has been built. but often there are places where u just cant do it... the topography is such. then it has to be a makeshift/postage sized. there are posts on very very difficult mountain ridges which have to be air maintained...


Such helipads are very high maintenance and sometimes require several working party efforts a day to keep them serviceable and operational.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 06 Jun 2014 10:35

and do u have an idea abt the amount of explosives that would be required to flatten a ridge which is covered in N feet of snow at 18000 ft + ... please talk sense. and do u want to land a jumbo jet on the flattened top?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Jun 2014 10:39

Shreeman wrote:
Sid wrote:It looks something like this.

Siachin base camp do have basic amenities. They have built proper helipads wherever possible. This is where the normal political pappi jhappi happens when netas visits Siachin.


The other figure didnt show. But this was the point, it looks like it is possible in MANY places there. The problem is, unlike high-seas drilling on an off-shore platform, it is not considered essential to have proper connectivity at every oupost. Make shift will do in most places. If this is the case, it is a shortcoming.


You are entitled to your opinion, but that's not the truth.

India spends more then 1 crore daily on maintaining these remote outpost. And these is not one but multiple military posts on Siachen glacier (air defense, fwd post for patrols, for artillery etc). And pilots and soldiers risk their life on daily basis in this location. Its not a fun place to stay for more then one day, let alone a year long posting.

Don't you think anyone is army would have thought about creating a little more hospitable (forget comfortable) place for soldiers in these posts? If they can carry an arty gun piece by piece to such a location, can't they create a more wider landing area for chopper?

If even Army cannot built on place like just imagine how difficult it actually is. These people are best of the best.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 06 Jun 2014 10:42

Sid : its a 3 or 4 month rotation and not a years posting.... but the rest of what u r saying is true..one cant even imagine... the conditions and the topography...the challenges... This is the problem with armchair warriors? shooting from the hip....sitting in comfort of a a/c room sipping coke !

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2014 11:14

manjgu wrote:and do u have an idea abt the amount of explosives that would be required to flatten a ridge which is covered in N feet of snow at 18000 ft + ... please talk sense. and do u want to land a jumbo jet on the flattened top?


Boss, explosives will cause avalanches. It's mostly elbow grease onlee

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Jun 2014 11:30

^^^ and if anyone has experienced moving their feet in a knee deep snow or trying to move on ice they will know how difficult movement is in such a place. Top that with low oxygen and temperatures which can freeze your balls.

If it was America, they would have made a billion movies and documentaries on Siachen and soldiers be given homecoming parties on return from such a place.

In India Aam junta does not have a clue how it's up there and feel that Army is in the way of demilitarization of Siachen. Who the hell wants to go and die in a hellhole like this place and feel unappreciated by their own people.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 11:59

Sid wrote:^^^ and if anyone has experienced moving their feet in a knee deep snow or trying to move on ice they will know how difficult movement is in such a place. Top that with low oxygen and temperatures which can freeze your balls.

If it was America, they would have made a billion movies and documentaries on Siachen and soldiers be given homecoming parties on return from such a place.

In India Aam junta does not have a clue how it's up there and feel that Army is in the way of demilitarization of Siachen. Who the hell wants to go and die in a hellhole like this place and feel unappreciated by their own people.


^^^ This. It is fine to talk about the difficulty, cost, and arm-chair warriors in the abstract. And about me, you would be right. I havent a clue. So I am asking for one.

But unless you show where current techniques worked and where they failed, how does an arm-chair warrior provide anything constructive? In these days of centimeter satellite and millimeter UAVs, the only people who dont know where siachin is, are the aam janata.

South Koreans claim half their country is occupied. They hold tours of the DMZ. Make the border ordinary, and solutions will emerge. This approach of "do you have any idea" brought India the ambaassador-only age for 50 years.

Siachin posts cant be one or two people posts, and if 10-20 people can sit there for months with supplies its not a bare ridge. Are the posts carved out of snow? Can supplies withstand being frozen? Do they have only a day or two worth of supplies to keep the weight down? Dont you gain weight if you are in such a cramped situation for months? So many questions just for the "carved out of snow, small space aspect".

ps - better high costs than two downed copters and skeletal facilities. Make the cuts in some babu/neta expenditure.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 06 Jun 2014 12:39

Shreeman....a) u r not asking ..u r arguing and criticising. Had u been only asking we would have been little more sympathetic to ur pov . and surely they dont need constructive advice of armchair warriors b) The current techniques have worked as the troops are sitting there since 1984 and no of casualties have come down drastically c) many siachen posts are indeed 1 or 2 persons..which are manned 24*7 ..screening and listening posts. the numbers could vary... many could have 4 to 5 persons as well... or more. d) i agree india should have allowed more access to such areas, encouraged mountaineering, trekking expeditions etc . This is something totally incomprehensible. e) gain weight at the posts !! bus karo yaar bus karo... have u ever been even on the top floor of ur apartment complex? bhook lagege pahad mein to weight gain hoga? f) sincerely advice you to read up and then show up on these discussions.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 12:47

manjgu wrote:Shreeman....a) u r not asking ..u r arguing and criticising. Had u been only asking we would have been little more sympathetic to ur pov . and surely they dont need constructive advice of armchair warriors b) The current techniques have worked as the troops are sitting there since 1984 and no of casualties have come down drastically c) many siachen posts are indeed 1 or 2 persons..which are manned 24*7 ..screening and listening posts. the numbers could vary... many could have 4 to 5 persons as well... or more. d) i agree india should have allowed more access to such areas, encouraged mountaineering, trekking expeditions etc . This is something totally incomprehensible. e) gain weight at the posts !! bus karo yaar bus karo... have u ever been even on the top floor of ur apartment complex? bhook lagege pahad mein to weight gain hoga? f) sincerely advice you to read up and then show up on these discussions.


Perhaps this is not how one asks questions here, this is vilayat for me. So what does one read?

The weight question is actually not silly, if you are trapped in a small confined space for months at once, it cant be healthy?

The weight of the helicopter is a problem, so you also can not have spare supplies close to the weight of a helicopter.

Weight serms to drive a few things. But less of mt ignorance, what is this reading matter and where does one find it?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Jun 2014 12:49

Shreeman:
http://www.amazon.in/Beyond-NJ-9842-Sia ... 9384052051
Its on my buy list as well..

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 13:23

Karan M wrote:Shreeman:
http://www.amazon.in/Beyond-NJ-9842-Sia ... 9384052051
Its on my buy list as well..


much obliged.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 06 Jun 2014 13:45

Shreeman wrote:
manjgu wrote:Shreeman....a) u r not asking ..u r arguing and criticising. Had u been only asking we would have been little more sympathetic to ur pov . and surely they dont need constructive advice of armchair warriors b) The current techniques have worked as the troops are sitting there since 1984 and no of casualties have come down drastically c) many siachen posts are indeed 1 or 2 persons..which are manned 24*7 ..screening and listening posts. the numbers could vary... many could have 4 to 5 persons as well... or more. d) i agree india should have allowed more access to such areas, encouraged mountaineering, trekking expeditions etc . This is something totally incomprehensible. e) gain weight at the posts !! bus karo yaar bus karo... have u ever been even on the top floor of ur apartment complex? bhook lagege pahad mein to weight gain hoga? f) sincerely advice you to read up and then show up on these discussions.


Perhaps this is not how one asks questions here, this is vilayat for me. So what does one read?

The weight question is actually not silly, if you are trapped in a small confined space for months at once, it cant be healthy?

The weight of the helicopter is a problem, so you also can not have spare supplies close to the weight of a helicopter.

Weight serms to drive a few things. But less of mt ignorance, what is this reading matter and where does one find it?



@Shreeman,

The most coveted supply in siachen is kerosine, for cooking and HEATING.

At that height a cheetah can carry ONLY ONE 35 LITER JERRYCAN OF KEROSINE. THIS IS THE MAX PAYLOAD.

That's how important weight is at these heights.

I am beginning to think that you are trolling.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jun 2014 14:02

chetak wrote:
Shreeman wrote:shreeman....a) u r not asking ..u r arguing and criticising. Had u been only asking we would have been little more sympathetic to ur pov . and surely they dont need constructive advice of armchair warriors b) The current techniques have worked as the troops are sitting there since 1984 and no of casualties have come down drastically c) many siachen posts are indeed 1 or 2 persons..which are manned 24*7 ..screening and listening posts. the numbers could vary... many could have 4 to 5 persons as well... or more. d) i agree india should have allowed more access to such areas, encouraged mountaineering, trekking expeditions etc . This is something totally incomprehensible. e) gain weight at the posts !! bus karo yaar bus karo... have u ever been even on the top floor of ur apartment complex? bhook lagege pahad mein to weight gain hoga? f) sincerely advice you to read up and then show up on these discussions.

Perhaps this is not how one asks questions here, this is vilayat for me. So what does one read?

The weight question is actually not silly, if you are trapped in a small confined space for months at once, it cant be healthy?

The weight of the helicopter is a problem, so you also can not have spare supplies close to the weight of a helicopter.

Weight serms to drive a few things. But less of mt ignorance, what is this reading matter and where does one find it?



@Shreeman,

The most coveted supply in siachen is kerosine, for cooking and HEATING.

At that height a cheetah can carry ONLY ONE 35 LITER JERRYCAN OF KEROSINE. THIS IS THE MAX PAYLOAD.

That's how important weight is at these heights.

I am beginning to think that you are trolling.


I am stranger to this side of matters. Never dabbled beyond the cave complex. So no ability to troll. Limited understanding says no economics or logic apply here. Some things are "at any/all cost". Can only ask "silly" questions to begin with.

Reading matter has been pounted out. I want to know why sensors have not replaced people in some of these situations. Do drones have a role (quadcopters)? This may be another berlin air bridge between the bakis and topography, but I dont know enough to come to that conclusion. Lets see if the book clarifies these issues.

One can think of all sorts of supply means that dont require hovering ( which I presume is the limitation you are highlighting) but none appear to have been used, so until I have read more I can only come across as naive at best.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 06 Jun 2014 14:04

Shreeman Ji: Your querries are natural. It is hard to imagine how tough it is to work on the Siachen Glacier. In my opinion, the Glacier biosphere (Snow, Crevasse, Temperature, High winds and above all Altitude) makes for the worst conditions that man occupies, operates and dwells for elongated times (there is no winter withdrawal).

We have been there for three decades now and the ideas that have been discussed are quite often in the realm of fantasy. Sid and manjgu ji have provided good information. I will add this.

Base Camp is at 3.5 Kms from Mean Sea Level (approx) Above 03 Kms oxygen goes down rapidly. The glacier extends more than a 100 kms (more infact) northwards rising quite steadily to 06 kms AMSL and beyond up to Indira Col on the northern axis. There are ridges on both sides, our boys are mostly on the western ridges way above the glacier top. Quite a few Helipads are above 6kms MSL. The Himalayan ridges are young and sharp and inherently unstable. Large scale tinkering with explosives on these mountains are not done because of fear of major disasters (It is also seismicly active area) . One may check the challenges related to Indian Railways rail link project in J & K and BRO road constructions in the North East region just to get an idea on the problems of large scale construction on Himalayas.

Where we can build runways, we have. THOISE and Leh are two 3 plus kms long strips at above 03 kms from MSL. In fact at approx 05 kms AMSL at DBO we have the Hercules landing and in my opinion this would be the greatest benefit of buying the C 130 as none of the Ruski tpts in current inventory could do this. But this not on the Glacier.

What I am trying to say is that we do try everything and quite often establish world records. I have heard that Ruskis bite their nails when they see us do things with their equipment on the glacier. A lot of ideas have also failed. Yet the difference between living standards on Glacier today and in the 1980's is quite remarkable.

As an aside to the difficulty on the Glacier, some one once told me - Imagine yourself all clothed up with multiple layers of clothing, - 20 / - 30 something (degree C), 25 - 30 knots icy winds gusting to 50, Oxygen levels so low that walking makes you breathless, Now walk away from the camp and now try to take a piss (don't forget to take the gloves off, you don't want them wet) :wink:


But I have my own stupid question for the Gurus:

I have read that Hovercrafts can operate on Snow, Ice, and even Class 5 white water surf. I am not aware on the impact of altitude. They can also handle fair bit of slope. While I am positive that most of the Siachin Glacier is not for the Hovercraft but can we use them on the Nubra -Shyok for surface transportation and also on large lakes like Pengang Tso (armed version)? Plus these freeze over in winters, fantastic ice for the Hovercraft plus no disadvantages of the aircraft like helipad, bad weather, etc (I am foremost an aviation enthusiast :) ).

Kindly excuse me if it is too stupid or discussed elsewhere, but I had to ask.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby mody » 09 Jun 2014 18:32

Using drone helicopters, something like the movie "Three Idiots", thing, should be seriously explored for the siachen region.

Recently in Mumbai a company used a similar small drone to deliver a pizza to the top of 30 story building from the pizza outlet about 1.5-2 Kms away.

We should start a program to develop military grade drones designed for operating in such extreme altitudes that can be used for delivering non-lethal supplies like a can of kerosene and the like.
The most crucial part would be to come up with an engine to power such a drone.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rajatmisra » 09 Jun 2014 21:38

From an armchair soldier again. China has built a fast train link on permafrost in Tibet. Highest railway, highest tunnel etc. I am sure there would have been skeptics and armchair critics on the need, but they went ahead and built it. So the question is, whether it is technically possible to build helipads on ridges by whatever means? Would a Chinese or US army build one for its soldiers. Economics is secondary.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Jun 2014 09:19

rajatmisra wrote:From an armchair soldier again. China has built a fast train link on permafrost in Tibet. Highest railway, highest tunnel etc. I am sure there would have been skeptics and armchair critics on the need, but they went ahead and built it. So the question is, whether it is technically possible to build helipads on ridges by whatever means? Would a Chinese or US army build one for its soldiers. Economics is secondary.


A majority of ridges are just shifting compacted ice and subject to constant erosion by wind and snowfall.

Where would you anchor such a structure and how would you keep it clear of accumulating ice and snow??

Even if built, it would get covered with snow and ice in a very short while, defeating the very purpose and the structure itself may get overloaded due to the accumulated weight of ice. It would also be obscenely high maintenance to keep operational just for the odd weekly or once every other week use.

Just because some idiot built a railroad on permafrost, which is an entirely different ballgame, do we have to build helipads just for the heck of it??

The weather on the glacier is extreme to say the least. Beats even the polar weather due to the addition of very high altitudes into the already deadly mix.

Helicopter engines and controls are at their very limit of performance with pilots also stressed very highly.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby deejay » 10 Jun 2014 13:33

rajatmisra ji, They built a rail road on the Tibetan Plateau, not in the Himalayas. That railway line is a modern wonder like the Great Wall of China of the historic times, but it is a nightmare to operate. Also very expensive. They have a large population center to cater and probably justify costs.

Imagine doing it on the Mountainous side of the plateau. It will be costlier and more difficult to operate than the helicopters. Plus which civilian centers would we service? Such costs need to computed based on the advantages. OT however, now that the railway has reached Srinagar - what about rail options via Gund Valley to Leh? I am not saying it is easy. It can be parallel to the Highway.

Though, we must continue our hunt for all better alternatives. The drone idea is good as it does away with the pilot, but what about weather and wind related challenges? How long will we take to get a drone powerful enough? Plus it will be a rotary wing drone.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 10 Jun 2014 16:22

deejay wrote:rajatmisra ji, They built a rail road on the Tibetan Plateau, not in the Himalayas. That railway line is a modern wonder like the Great Wall of China of the historic times, but it is a nightmare to operate. Also very expensive. They have a large population center to cater and probably justify costs.

Imagine doing it on the Mountainous side of the plateau. It will be costlier and more difficult to operate than the helicopters. Plus which civilian centers would we service? Such costs need to computed based on the advantages. OT however, now that the railway has reached Srinagar - what about rail options via Gund Valley to Leh? I am not saying it is easy. It can be parallel to the Highway.

Though, we must continue our hunt for all better alternatives. The drone idea is good as it does away with the pilot, but what about weather and wind related challenges? How long will we take to get a drone powerful enough? Plus it will be a rotary wing drone.


Some exist, import is possible. The Kaman one is being used routinely in Afg for automated cargo movement. Wont replace all sorties, but will reduce chances of losing people.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Dennis » 10 Jun 2014 21:26

Article posted by ADGPI, Indian Army on their facebook page:

Rope
by Capt. Raghu Raman, first published in the Infantry Journal in 1995.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 10 Jun 2014 22:04

"Plus which civilian centers would we service?"

Hopefully we don't justify not planning by 'even a hair doesn't grow in Tibet' kind of logic. 50 years down the line there may be something useful somehow, who knows. As far as no population argument is concerned, India has a very good record about democracy in general and so no credit is lost when there are no population centers around. For arguments' sake, India would have had much better record in case of existing centers wrt all others, and therefore no less otherwise. Hence in comparative terms, absence of population center is no argument.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 11 Jun 2014 00:05

deejay wrote:rajatmisra ji, They built a rail road on the Tibetan Plateau, not in the Himalayas. That railway line is a modern wonder like the Great Wall of China of the historic times, but it is a nightmare to operate. Also very expensive. They have a large population center to cater and probably justify costs.

Imagine doing it on the Mountainous side of the plateau. It will be costlier and more difficult to operate than the helicopters. Plus which civilian centers would we service? Such costs need to computed based on the advantages. OT however, now that the railway has reached Srinagar - what about rail options via Gund Valley to Leh? I am not saying it is easy. It can be parallel to the Highway.

Though, we must continue our hunt for all better alternatives. The drone idea is good as it does away with the pilot, but what about weather and wind related challenges? How long will we take to get a drone powerful enough? Plus it will be a rotary wing drone.


The drone does not do away with the pilot. It only takes the pilot out of the cockpit and puts him thousands of miles away if it is required to operate that way.

With current level of technology, you still need the qualified pilot.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2014 02:44

With Modi in Delhi, no more trading Siachen for peace nonsense right?


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