Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Cain Marko
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

dhiraj wrote:the latest image from Tarmak007 FB site for Rafale and Su-30 is really amazing . Su-30 looks likes an airliner while Rafale an executive jet :) .
What is really amazing is that the executive jet can carry more passengers! The Rafale hardly looks bigger than a viper.

For sure iaf will have the prettiest fleet with the MKI, rafale, Tejas and pakfa, absolutely stunning!
kmkraoind
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kmkraoind »

Vishal Thapar ‏@thaparvishal French Air Force patch for Ex Garuda-V, Jodhpur,featuring Rafale vs Su-30 mock dogfights

Image
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

When it comes to size having seen Su-30MKI multiple times up close and front , I can say that while rest are Fighter aircraft , MKI is true Business Jet for Military Purpose.

Rafale and MKI in parallel gives true idea of the size of bird :twisted:
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

pandyan wrote:amazing pictures.

ok..smoke analysis pliss :mrgreen: Rafale engines are smoking like 3 times more than su30.
are any of the pilots wearing scooter helmets. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Indranil
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Indranil »

pandyan wrote:amazing pictures.

ok..smoke analysis pliss :mrgreen: Rafale engines are smoking like 3 times more than su30.
That is not smoke. Those are charred tarmac and deposits from previous exhausts. The Rafales just happen to be at spots which have been used more.
kmkraoind
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by kmkraoind »

@Chopsyturvey: A mixed formation of IAF and French fighter aircraft over jodhpur Exercise #GarudaV pic.twitter.com/vFfNx6sTol

Image
member_26622
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_26622 »

Nice pictures which just HIGHLIGHT that RAFALE is an 'dressed' up old vixen, and high maintenance girlfriend - correcting to BACK and BANK account breaking. Imagine an F-35 or J-31 in the picture. Now what do you feel?

Honestly, looking at wiki for what one can get for around same price or less
  • Fighter RAFALE EuroFighter Su-30 LCA F-35 Chinese stealth
  • First Flight 1986 1994 1989 2001 2006 2013
  • Introduction 2001 2003 1996 2013 2015 ?
  • First Produced 1992 1994 1990 ---- 2006 ?
  • Numbers built 126 400 509+ 14 1000+ ?
  • Cost today($m) 124 150++ 75(mki) 27 125 ?
R1- Rafale is the OLDEST DESIGN AMONGST ALL - 30 YEARS OLD, even Su-30 is younger, not even speaking of LCA or F-35 (using first flight or introduction). Many folks on this forum were likely not born whenit took first flight :roll:
R2- Rafale joins the OLDEST PRODUCED Band, 22 YEARS AGO
R3- Rafale will be the LOWEST BUILT qty fighter even with an Indian order. Even a dumb*ss knows that this is a WHITE ELEPHANT in the making, DEAD END for future enhancement cosnidering EURO EXPENSIVE upgrades.
R4- RAFALE COST SAME AS F-35 :?: Not surprised as any Euro purchase will be brain hemorrhage costly.

Cannot come up with answers for -
Q1) Why are we buying a 4.5 gen plane - 30 year old design when we can get a 5th gen plane for same price?
Q2) How long will it hold its own against oncoming J-3* or F-35 stealth jets? Outdated in 10 years aka Dead On Arrival!
Q3) Can we afford Euro priced weapons? Everything going on this jet will be French certified. A plane is used for 30 years and lifetime upgrades cost more than initial acquisition cost. Just look at M2000 upgrade and Scorpene cost escalation.

Someone had said that 'Chaddar dekh ke pair failane chahiye" (think Manmohan). We are spending 20 billion $ to get 126 old hags. That is HALF of our ANNUAL DEFENSE OUTLAY :roll: IAF is shining St*pid which Modi will astutely see through a million kms afar! Even mind blowing Corrupt Congress knew that this is the next Bofors in the making. They shrewdly left Rafale to be Modi's undoing.

This is nothing less than GANG R*PE of the Country-four R's above.(apologize for the choice of words but find this French peddling is so much more offensive).

All of this when we have a good LCA dog which can defend India 'if' we make 100's of copies. In WW2, Russia showed how a poor country (design and money wise) can take on a much better equipped foe. Price paid is in human lives but that's what they had to do. Thats what we have to do, no point in re-inventing the wheel.
member_28476
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_28476 »

R1- Rafale is the OLDEST DESIGN AMONGST ALL - 30 YEARS OLD, even Su-30 is younger, not even speaking of LCA or F-35 (using first flight or introduction). Many folks on this forum were likely not born whenit took first flight :roll:

My friend, you are confusing a tech demonstrator ( Rafale A) with first Rafale C flight.

R2- Rafale joins the OLDEST PRODUCED Band, 22 YEARS AGO

that is true, and untrue. First induced Rafales were stop gap situation due to old crusaders retirement. They are all ungoing a very heavy retrorfit.

R3- Rafale will be the LOWEST BUILT qty fighter even with an Indian order. Even a dumb*ss knows that this is a WHITE ELEPHANT in the making, DEAD END for future enhancement cosnidering EURO EXPENSIVE upgrades.

That sentence is just blah blah. Check EFA or F-35 prices?

R4- RAFALE COST SAME AS F-35 :?: Not surprised as any Euro purchase will be brain hemorrhage costly.

Plain lie.
member_26622
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_26622 »

My feedback is in Bold
Pagot wrote:R1- Rafale is the OLDEST DESIGN AMONGST ALL - 30 YEARS OLD, even Su-30 is younger, not even speaking of LCA or F-35 (using first flight or introduction). Many folks on this forum were likely not born whenit took first flight :roll:

My friend, you are confusing a tech demonstrator ( Rafale A) with first Rafale C flight.

>>First off NOT YOUR FRIEND IF YOU SAY LIAR BELOW FRENCHIE. RAFALE A, B, C or Z is Irrelevant. Every one of the compared planes went through an evolution. Example SU-30, MKI, MKK and now 35. Point still stays valid --> OLDEST DESIGN

R2- Rafale joins the OLDEST PRODUCED Band, 22 YEARS AGO

that is true, and untrue. First induced Rafales were stop gap situation due to old crusaders retirement. They are all ungoing a very heavy retrorfit.

>> Yes, Every plane goes through a retrofit which is not same as reincarnation in to another form! True-Untrue ? Make up your mind.

R3- Rafale will be the LOWEST BUILT qty fighter even with an Indian order. Even a dumb*ss knows that this is a WHITE ELEPHANT in the making, DEAD END for future enhancement cosnidering EURO EXPENSIVE upgrades.

That sentence is just blah blah. Check EFA or F-35 prices?

>> ALL MY FIGURES ARE FROM WIKI, No Fancy accounting or hidden surprises. FYI Google does translation in any language of your choice.

R4- RAFALE COST SAME AS F-35 :?: Not surprised as any Euro purchase will be brain hemorrhage costly.

Plain lie.

>> Check WIKI PAGES FOR EACH PLANE. EURO purchases are plain darn expensive due to small production runs and expensive labor. Sach hamesha kadva hota hai (now go and translate this)

India is not an banana republic or may I say your (or your paymasters) ex-north african colony to mess around with.
Last edited by Indranil on 08 Jun 2014 11:04, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Moderator note: No personal attacks (borderline racism) will be tolerated here. Consider this a soft warning.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Nik - cool down dude. No point in getting an ulcer over all this. Rafale is the IAFs choice and its on its way, as is the PAKFA which is the IAFs 5G choice.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote:Image


Image
Amazing despite the difference in size rafale can carry more than mki, while this huge mki carries 8 tons, the tiny little rafale carries 9 tons and once it gets Mk-3 engines it'll be able to carry 11 tons:

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... ofcomments
Rafale has excellent payload for its small size. Officially Rafale C can carry a incredible 20900 pounds of payload despite the fact that it is slightly smaller than Typhoon which can carry only 16500 pounds.

The payload of Rafale C is also officially MORE than F-18EF ( F-18EF is 42% larger than rafale C, but F-18ef carries only 17700 pound officially).

And this is not all. When Rafale get its uprated M88-3 engine and when the new 3000 liter (792.6gals) center line external fuel tank is being qualified for use, rafale external payload weight will further increase to almost 23000 pound !!! Thats almost the same as the 24000 pounds achieve by the 50-65% larger F-15E.

Rafale C MTOW will soon be increase to 60,000 pounds. Rafale C is about 20680 pound when empty. Its MTOW to empty weight ratio is 2.9 times !!

F-15E MTOW to empty ratio is 2.56 or less. F-15E probably rank second.

No other airplane is close or even close. eurofighter Typhoon MTWO to empty weight is only 2.14 !

B-2 bomber may have highere MTOW to empty weight ratio. But B-2 is a subsonic load carrying bomber. For fighter plane comparison Rafale C MTOW to empty weight ratio is HIGHEST among all supersonic fighter aircraft.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Pagot wrote:That sentence is just blah blah. Check EFA or F-35 prices?
I did. And I stand impressed with the F-35's price. $112M fly away. At a rate of production that's less than quarter of its final production rate.
R4- RAFALE COST SAME AS F-35 :?: Not surprised as any Euro purchase will be brain hemorrhage costly.

Plain lie.
European defence products are almost always more expensive than their American equivalents with the exception of those derived from civilian production like the A-330. Simple matter of scale of production.

And there's little doubt that the cost of the Rafale's weapons complement will nothing short of horrifying.

MICA - $2.75M/unit (Aim-9X < $1M)

Meteor - > $4M/unit expected (Aim-120C7 - $1.7M)

AASM - $300K/unit (SDB I - $45K, SDB II < $100K, JDAM-ER < $50K)

SCALP-EG ≈$2M/unit IIRC (JSOW-ER < 500K, JASSM < $1M)


(8 Meteors + 8 MICA) x 126 aircraft = $6.8 billion. (Not including AASM, Paveway, SCALP-EG etc)

Even assuming that the cost is lower based on bulk purchases, its still comparable to the entire original budget for the MMRCA.
Last edited by Viv S on 08 Jun 2014 07:01, edited 1 time in total.
Cybaru
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cybaru »

uuhhh, sure it may have same payload capacity. But it will never be to the same distance. MKI is carrying more to farther distances. That is a game changer. It allows strategic missions.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^^Wiki gives mki's range as 3000 kms. while rafale's 3700 kms. but doesn't mention with what payload.
deejay
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by deejay »

Why do we end up questioning buy / no buy decisions and always compare prices. Are we aware of the specific Indian modifications on the Rafale and their cost implications? Are the choices we make just a function of L1 bids? Should they be so? Even the IAF did a Tech bid. The IAF must have had a specific role in mind, the Rafale fit the bill most and it was cheaper than the Typhoon for sure.

The IAF is very happy with the value it got out of Mirage 2K. I think, it is the M2K experience which would have convinced many on the benefits of dealing with the Frenchies.

Plus in my opinion, to have a mixed origin inventory is technically challenging, but has operational benefits of widely different platforms, each with different strong points which will be a nightmare for the enemy to counter. It also acts as an insurance against a total fleet being held hostage to a single countries whims and fancies. And yes, the importance of Tejas and other Indian fighters should never be sidelined.

And finally, Unkil will take forever to get over the fact that we thought Rafale was better than the machines they have been peddling as the 'best in the world'. I am not sure if there has been other similar match ups elsewhere but two of Unkil's planes lost out to two European planes based on Technical Evaluations. Hard pill for Unkil to swallow, hain ji?
member_26622
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_26622 »

WIKI says the 3700 mile range is with three drop tanks each weighing 1.6 tons from FAS page, summing up to 4.8 tons. The armament payload is 9.5-4.8=4.7 tons.

My bet is that the SU-30 range is way more than Rafale (please compare with and without drop tanks and similar altitude). Both jets do not have enough legs to go to Chinese population centers anyways.

My utter disbelief is that IMPORT LOBBY/IAF (who is behind this?) will impose such an exorbitant and crippling cost on Indian people. Are we going to go under if we do not buy this Rafale crap? Is this the price for freedom? Need some shaking off here for even coming with this BS outlandish proposal.

Do we really really believe that 126 Rafales will alter the equation with Chinese 1000+ jets? It's a numbers game and we need 500+ LCA more than anything else to deter these crazy generals. No need to be a strategist, just been a realist!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Has the Rafale EVER carried more than 3 tonnes of ordinance (not fuel) let alone 9 or even 4.7 tonnes? In contrast MKI have demonstrated > 6000kg. Also to be considered is the fact that a fighter is constantly consuming fuel. So even if a Rafale starts on the tarmac with 4.8 tonnes of fuel it would have burnt quite a bit as soon as it leaves the ground. And there after the fuel weight keeps decreasing. The same is not true for ordinance which will put equal load on the fighter until they are actually dropped. Practically the Rafale carrying more than the MKI is a load of BS.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

"Cut your coat according to your cloth".Media reports say that the 2% GDP fig. for the defence budget is impossible given the subsidies regime that the new dispensation has inherited from the UPA/Cong. The wretched NREGA sops must be cut back,even a small cut back will save billions.The programme can be better monitored to see that the funds reach the right people,not political cronies and their touts.

A smaller purchase of Rafales,perhaps limited TOT,and another batch of MIG-29s (IN's MIG-29Ks @ $32M) will halve the cost and give us as much or even more numbers.If M-2000s were in production,we could've bought them too.The MOD must demand from the IAF a Plan "B","C",whatever. reports also say that the light howitzer arty deal is also in trouble. Tough times for AJ,with his two caps.If we don't have the money for the Raffy deal,then the IAF have to be told the truth.Raffy cannot also impinge upon the LCA acquisition and production.Those aircraft are essential to replace one-for-one the 6 MIG-21 sqds.,plus other aircraft like UG MIG-27s,etc.At least 200 will be needed.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Karan M wrote:Nik - cool down dude. No point in getting an ulcer over all this. Rafale is the IAFs choice and its on its way, as is the PAKFA which is the IAFs 5G choice.
Just before the MRCA drama began the the M-2000 was IAFs "choice" (or so one was led to believe). And now nothing other than the uber-Rafale will do.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

^ I like the above logic, and have suggested similarly.

IN terms of Rafale's ability to "Carry", I have seen pics of rafale carrying 2 X Scalp + 4 X Mica + 3 X 2000ltr EFTs, which is v.close to 3000kg of ordinance along with ~ 7000kg of fuel (almost 10000kg). Can't see why it can't shed the centerline EFT to accomodate another Scalp in the centerline.

Range on internal fuel, iirc = 2200km

Nothing to scoff at. Bloody plane is incredibly versatile.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by brar_w »

Its the best option we had given what we were offered. Time to put ink on paper and prepare for fielding it in credible numbers!
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

RAFALE: A Long Journey - Air Marshal BK Pandey ( retd ) ( pg 13 )

http://issuu.com/spguide/docs/sp_s_avia ... 014/15?e=0
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Cain Marko wrote:^ I like the above logic, and have suggested similarly.

IN terms of Rafale's ability to "Carry", I have seen pics of rafale carrying 2 X Scalp + 4 X Mica + 3 X 2000ltr EFTs, which is v.close to 3000kg of ordinance along with ~ 7000kg of fuel (almost 10000kg). Can't see why it can't shed the centerline EFT to accomodate another Scalp in the centerline.

Range on internal fuel, iirc = 2200km

Nothing to scoff at. Bloody plane is incredibly versatile.
CM ji, if we replace SCALP with Nirbhay, amazing combo with Rafale:

SCALP weight: 1230 kilograms
Nirbhay weight: 1000 kilograms

SCALP Range : 500 kms
Nirbhay Range: 1000 kms
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

I would take the 1000kg wiki figure for nirbhay with a deep pinch of salt.
for sure as a SLCM, it would be sized to fit the 21" TT and occupy the weapons rack of a 18feet long HWT, nobody wants to waste free space or payload with a smaller missile when room is there and the engine is license made from Omsk bureau same family that powers the bigger KH55 ALCM.

the Thawk SLCM lists at 1300kg, 1600kg(with booster) and 18feet 3 inch.

I am thinking thats where nirbhay is. clearly too long for anything but the mighty flanker if we ever develop a ALCM version of it .... remember the retired Boeing ALCM AGM-86 was a totally different missile - larger than Thawk, with a fixed intake on top and a more streamlined nose. its airframe will surely need to be stressed for more shock and load if carried externally , like the KH101 rather than inside bomb bay like KH55 or AGM-86. its gonna be a new project......
Image

right now I think focus of nirbhay is land and naval application for tranche1 & 2.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^In case DRDO goes for mini-nirbhay they'll need smaller engine or would just make smaller space for fuel tank etc. and same engine?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

For Airlaunched Nirbhai they would be using shorter booster or no booster at all , as Subsonic Cruise missile dont need booster to propel them to supersonic speed like Brahmos.

Once the booster is gone , Rafale should be able to carry a single Nirbhay on center line point or 2 along the inner wing pylon , should be doable IMO
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

but it will be as agile as a grand piano in that role. maybe release a couple of BVR shots but heavy imposed limits on its agility and aoa. more like a bomb truck. to be fair, all other mighty bomb trucks like the F15E and Flanker are also constrained at their highest bombloads.

beats having no bomb truck, though obviously a Blackjack/B1b will carry 20 of these and do a lot more damage at a lot more range.

we need to kick the MTA out from its grave and work with Tupolev to get a rotary multi-purpose launcher into its fuselage. being high wing and outboard canoe landing gear, the bomb bay doors have no obstruction on the bottom. get rid of the point-load stressed strong floor.

a variety of munitions incl nirbahys, brahmos-ALCM, sudarshans with glide kits .... its going to be fun with mix and match payloads. a fleet of 40 would be good.
http://www.eglin.af.mil/shared/media/ph ... 16-003.jpg

also simple vertical stacked WW2 / B52 / B1 style bomb racks to POUND an area with 400kg gravity bombs. :lol:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Yagnasri »

Singhaji - MTA is needed for so many other things also. That is why that project is sleeping till now. Hope NM Sarkar changes that.
member_20453
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

Normally Nirbhay should be capable of being launched from the modified MKIs that can also launch the Brahmos, it is certainly lighter and smaller than the Brahmos. I think its weight should allow the brahmos to carry upto 3 Nirbhays. It is about 6m in length i.e 4m shorter than the Brahmos. I don't see why Nirbhay can't be quickly integrated on the MKI. The goal for the Nirbhay team should now be to quickly retest and do many more tests importantly with the wide range of around 24 warheads that they initially promised.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cosmo_R »

Singha wrote:but it will be as agile as a grand piano in that role. maybe release a couple of BVR shots but heavy imposed limits on its agility and aoa. more like a bomb truck. to be fair, all other mighty bomb trucks like the F15E and Flanker are also constrained at their highest bombloads.

beats having no bomb truck, though obviously a Blackjack/B1b will carry 20 of these and do a lot more damage at a lot more range.

we need to kick the MTA out from its grave and work with Tupolev to get a rotary multi-purpose launcher into its fuselage. being high wing and outboard canoe landing gear, the bomb bay doors have no obstruction on the bottom. get rid of the point-load stressed strong floor.

a variety of munitions incl nirbahys, brahmos-ALCM, sudarshans with glide kits .... its going to be fun with mix and match payloads. a fleet of 40 would be good.
http://www.eglin.af.mil/shared/media/ph ... 16-003.jpg

also simple vertical stacked WW2 / B52 / B1 style bomb racks to POUND an area with 400kg gravity bombs. :lol:
Would a P-8I re purposed in conjunction with Boeing be an alternative?

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/189/189150_800.jpg
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

Dhananjay wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^ I like the above logic, and have suggested similarly.

IN terms of Rafale's ability to "Carry", I have seen pics of rafale carrying 2 X Scalp + 4 X Mica + 3 X 2000ltr EFTs, which is v.close to 3000kg of ordinance along with ~ 7000kg of fuel (almost 10000kg). Can't see why it can't shed the centerline EFT to accomodate another Scalp in the centerline.

Range on internal fuel, iirc = 2200km

Nothing to scoff at. Bloody plane is incredibly versatile.
CM ji, if we replace SCALP with Nirbhay, amazing combo with Rafale:

SCALP weight: 1230 kilograms
Nirbhay weight: 1000 kilograms

SCALP Range : 500 kms
Nirbhay Range: 1000 kms
Yes, nirbhay will certainly be an option at a later date, raffy certainly allows for some enticing opportunities
Last edited by Cain Marko on 11 Jun 2014 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Nirbhay would be India's JASSM-ER with range of 1000 km plus and for fleet wide carrying capability.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Why is the Pak-FA/FGFA td. locked? Anyway,some details about counterstealth,relevant to this td.,as well s sage advcie from the USN's CNO,Adm.Greenert.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... s-13506974
Russian-Made Tech Vs. America's Stealth Warplanes
For the past 30 years stealth technology has helped American warplanes maintain air dominance around the globe. Now Russian firms are designing and selling weapons they claim can shoot down the most sophisticated aircraft ever built.
By Joe Pappalardo

Even the newest stealth airplanes, such as this F-35B Lightning II, face radar and missile threats that opponents say can track and destroy them.

Even the newest stealth airplanes, such as this F-35B Lightning II, face radar and missile threats that opponents say can track and destroy them.
October 9, 2012 6:30 AM Text Size: A . A . A
1 of 2 »
There is something unnerving about watching Iranians browse weapons built to hunt down and destroy American warplanes.

The International Salon of Weapons and Military Equipment—2010, held at the famed Zhukovsky airfield outside Moscow, outwardly resembles U.S. defense industry shows. Exhibits stand in rows inside a cavernous hangar converted into a convention hall. Engineers and sales flacks talk up their wares. Employees hand out pens tattooed with company names and logos. Clusters of visitors—on the first day of the show, mostly potential international customers—gather at the displays. Here, a couple of Eastern Europeans peer through the scopes of unloaded sniper rifles. There, a group of Asians gawk at a demo of small radio-controlled quadrotors.

This is all pretty standard defense industry fare. But some differences become more apparent when I reach the booth of the Russian firm Almaz-Antey, one of the world's leaders in antiaircraft weaponry and the nation's largest arms dealer. A promotional animation on a large screen hanging over the display shows an Almaz missile streaking toward an airplane that looks a lot like a carrier-launched F-35C Lightning II. The missile closes and the airplane disappears in an orange explosion.

The image is shocking—I'm used to seeing American stealth warplanes prevail, in combat as well as in corporate promotional animations. The U.S. government has invested 16 years and $396 billion to ensure that F-35s can fly undetected through well-defended airspace. And the Russians are selling defense systems that can knock them out of the sky?

I notice a trio of men in nearly identical gray suits and close-cropped beards examining toy-train-size models of mobile radar and missile launchers. They are from the Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, a civilian institution that has ties to the military. Late last year, a scientist from Sharif visiting the United States was arrested for purchasing unspecified equipment that could be used in military programs.

Almaz engineer Ivan Shalaev sidles next to them and they settle into a conversation in English. It's a perfect opportunity to eavesdrop. The Iranians ask Shalaev questions about infrared sensors that can detect an airplane by the heat of its engines and the air friction against its skin. But Shalaev tells the Iranians that infrared is just one tracking method the company offers to customers.

Behind him are seekers that use enhanced radar to chase down warplanes. Several are cut open to show a gimballed disc studded with a forest of tiny T-shaped transmit/receive modules. Under the disc is a small computer that can quickly process even the most subtle radar returns. This makes the missile responsive and difficult to outwit. Almaz-Antey is selling these upgraded warheads to fit on existing antiaircraft missiles, including ones it sold to Syria, Venezuela, China, and Iran.

The Iranians don't answer any direct questions, beyond stating their university affiliation, when I introduce myself as an American journalist. But Shalaev is open, even friendly. He's a hometown boy; his father was an engineer, too, who worked on advanced Russian aerospace programs here at the Zhukovsky.

The young engineer is not shy about which airplanes are in his company's crosshairs. Asked if the new seekers could track and destroy an F-35, Shalaev grins and says, "Well, we're going to try."

The Emerging Threats to U.S. Stealth Jets

Two years after the Zhukovsky Arms show, sales of Russian antiaircraft equipment are surging, and Almaz-Antey is at the head of the effort. Company officials, quoted in Russian media, say that the nation's new defense plants—the first built in 20 years—will make antiaircraft weapons.

That's not good news for U.S. pilots and American allies. The Pentagon strives to hold any place in the world, no matter how well defended, under threat of air attack. Modern U.S. warplanes are designed to evade enemy radar, electromagnetic snoopers, and heat-seeking missiles. The Pentagon calls this low observable (LO); the rest of the world calls it stealth.

"Russia still believes it has an important role to play in the world," says Travis Sharp, an analyst with the Center for a New American Security. "Producing and selling advanced military equipment is one way to signal to other states that you are not someone to mess with, nor are your allies someone they should mess with."

Selling these weapons is also lucrative. In a recent $2 billion deal, Almaz-Antey delivered 15 batteries of S-300PMU-2 mobile antiaircraft missile systems to China. Each battery has two or three radar units and four missile launchers. The radar can simultaneously track 100 targets; each launcher can shoot four missiles that speed toward targets at Mach 6. That's about 60 missile-launching vehicles for the price of four F-22 Raptors. The S-300's keen radar and fast-moving missiles guard the Taiwan Strait and form an umbrella that would protect a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

Scary as the missiles might be, it's the radar systems that pose the gravest threat to stealth airplanes. Post—Cold War engineers in Russia breathed new, deadly life into VHF radars that have been around since the 1970s by digitizing their signals. Increasing computing power has improved the system's ability to glean coherent information from a jumble of data. Faint VHF radar returns that once would have been construed as random background noise can now be detected and identified.

"These VHF radars can detect aircraft constructed using stealth technology," Viktor Ozherelev, a division head at Almaz-Antey, claimed at a 2007 arms show. "The Americans know their stealth program has failed." Most experts say this is an exaggeration, but it's not unfounded.


The interplay between radar and airplanes is a physical one. Stealth airplanes are shaped to deflect radar waves away from the receivers—but not every radar scans at the same wavelength. Increasing the frequency of a wave decreases its wavelength (the distance between its peaks). The shorter the wavelength, the more detailed the return and the better the resolution.

Aerospace engineers designed stealth airplanes primarily to beat the detection equipment that poses the greatest threat—X-band radar. Surface-to-air batteries use this band because it operates at wavelengths that give the optimal compromise between the range and resolution needed to identify and track a target. But when stealth airplanes are exposed to radar waves longer than this wavelength range, they generate stronger radar returns.

For this reason, well-equipped defenders have more than one kind of radar protecting the same airspace, set up at different angles. For example, a defender protecting a fixed target (like a uranium-enrichment facility) could share data from a network of several radars to get enough information to accurately launch a missile. A VHF radar could detect incoming aircraft while lower-frequency S-band or L-band radars on the flanks could paint the target from the sides. Russia sells such counterstealth radar combinations as package deals.

These integrated-air-defense systems, as the Pentagon calls them, complicate any war plan. Pilots of stealth aircraft are expected to dismantle these networks—as B-2 Spirit bombers have done over Iraq, Serbia, and Libya.

The upper echelons of the military warn that there are limits to stealth in these networked environments. "The rapid expansion of computing power ushers in new sensors and methods that will make stealth and its advantages increasingly difficult to maintain," Adm. Jonathan Greenert, chief of naval operations, wrote in the July 2012 issue of Proceedings magazine, published by the U.S. Naval Institute. "Maintaining stealth in the face of new and diverse counter-detection methods would require significantly higher fiscal investments in our next generation of platforms."

"There's a real risk that a lot of the high-tech investments are going toward things our adversaries want us to invest in, because they can neutralize them—and spend far less money to do so," Sharp says.

In his essay in Proceedings, Greenert suggests the way to keep U.S. aircraft safe is to make smarter choices in equipping them. Instead of investing massive amounts of money in airplanes that can defeat every new threat, he advocates purchasing weapons that existing aircraft can fire from longer ranges, safely away from radar. He also suggests adopting UAVs and missiles that can jam enemy radar before manned aircraft even arrive. "We need more numerous electronic warfare and cyber payloads to thwart detection and targeting," he wrote. "U.S. forces can... employ long-range sensor, weapon, and unmanned vehicle payloads instead of using only stealth platforms to reach targets."
America's newest stealth aircraft, the F-35 Lightning II, is the most advanced warplane ever built. It's set to enter service in 2016, and at least eight nations are buying it, making this stealth warplane the most likely one to face Russian radar and missiles.

The F-35 diminishes its visibility to radar with internal weapons bays, carefully aligned edges, and embedded antennas. Yet the airplane is accused of being more vulnerable to detection than earlier stealth aircraft, such as the F-22 Raptor, due to its more conventional airplane shape. Air Force Association president, retired Lt. Gen. Mike Dunn, slighted the F-35 when he stated that "only the F-22 can survive in airspace defended by increasingly capable surface-to-air missiles."

The F-35 is a multirole aircraft; it must fight other airplanes, bomb targets, and conduct recon; and each mission requires specific payloads. For that reason, its design has tradeoffs that make it less stealthy and less maneuverable than the Raptor, which was designed first and foremost to win air superiority over other fighters.

The F-35 does not have the radar-shunting curves of the Raptor that help mask it from radar at all angles. Engineers designed the F-22 and the B-2 to be unseen at many wavelengths and directions. The Lightning II does not offer many radar returns when the waves strike it from the front, but when they come from the side, the returns are stronger.

Persistent F-35 critic Carlo Kopp, an analyst with the group Air Power Australia, has written that the Lightning II is "demonstrably not a true stealth aircraft." He also claims radar waves will bounce between the juncture of wing and fuselage in a way that can be detected if the airplane is scanned from any direction but the front. He is not the only one who has pointed out possible sources of trouble. For example, rival airplane-makers in Europe claim that powerful aircraft radar can spot an F-35 coming, even head-on, if multiple opposing aircraft are cooperatively scanning.

Radar waves do not just reflect off objects, they also flow across surfaces, scattering only when they hit a rivet, gun barrel, or other feature that breaks the smoothness of the skin. Aviation Week reporter Bill Sweetman notes that the F-35A's gun is located internally, but it is housed in a "hideous wart" on the airplane's surface—one of several features he says could betray the aircraft's position.

Lockheed Martin won't confirm or deny these alleged flaws, saying the information is classified. Still, the criticisms are plausible, even if they come from known F-35 skeptics using only public information. But Lockheed vice president and former F/A-18 pilot Steve O'Bryan pointedly notes that there is more to being low observable than just shape. "I reject the notion that the F-35 is an inferior stealth airplane," he says.

The F-35's approach to radar-absorbent material (RAM) is more reliable than that of any earlier warplane. The F-22's surfaces are made of aluminum, which are covered in RAM that must constantly be reapplied. This is, of course, a nightmare for maintenance crews. But the F-35 is made of carbon-fiber composite; Lockheed engineers bake RAM into the airplane's edges in an effort to soak up inbound radar.

But the Lightning II's key to survival is its own radar, the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) installed in its nose. Conventional radar systems turn their gaze mechanically—imagine a dish spinning or a flat surface tilting to aim radar beams. Electronically steered radar does not move, but its beams can broadcast in different directions, thousands of times a second and across many frequencies. This agility allows AESA to map terrain and track hundreds of targets.

AESA is built to do more than scan—it can reach out to enemy radars and scramble their signals. A combination of radar and electromagnetic warning sensors alert an F-35 pilot to the threat of enemy radar; he can then dodge the threat or use the AESA to jam the signal, no matter what frequency the radar is transmitting.

And, if a missile is launched, the F-35 can track it with 360-degree infrared-sensor coverage and then, in some cases, overwhelm the missile's guidance system with the AESA. "Stealth works in conjunction with all those other techniques to make the F-35 what is probably the most survivable airplane of all time," O'Bryan says.

But there's a double edge to this sword. AESA radar is great at protecting stealth aircraft, but it can also detect them. Foreign military engineers are placing electronically steered radar arrays in their own warplanes and advertising them as stealth hunters.

Putin's radarmen are building several AESA radars for existing and future warplanes. Last year, Yury Bely, director of the Tikhomirov research institute, said in Takeoff, a Russian aerospace magazine, that the L-band AESA radar his staff is developing is "as good as any foreign radar of its type." This year, flights of an X-band AESA radar began in prototypes of the Russian—Indian PAK-FA stealth airplane.

Air dominance is now being fought in a greater swath of the electromagnetic spectrum. The critical part of any 21st-century air combat will be the first invisible duel of flickering AESA beams dancing across each other hundreds of miles ahead of any airplane. It's the same old dogfight rules: The first airplane to spot the other shoots, and quite likely whoever is in the other airplane dies.

The Emerging Threats to U.S. Stealth Jets

Improving defenses are already influencing Pentagon attack strategy. No one is saying stealth designs should be abandoned, but military planners must reckon with the advances of opponents. This is another part of the game—one wonks call the cost—exchange ratio.

"There's a real risk that a lot of the high-tech investments are going toward things our adversaries want us to invest in, because they can neutralize them—and spend far less money to do so," Sharp says.

In his essay in Proceedings, Greenert suggests the way to keep U.S. aircraft safe is to make smarter choices in equipping them. Instead of investing massive amounts of money in airplanes that can defeat every new threat, he advocates purchasing weapons that existing aircraft can fire from longer ranges, safely away from radar. He also suggests adopting UAVs and missiles that can jam enemy radar before manned aircraft even arrive. "We need more numerous electronic warfare and cyber payloads to thwart detection and targeting," he wrote. "U.S. forces can... employ long-range sensor, weapon, and unmanned vehicle payloads instead of using only stealth platforms to reach targets."

The drones, cruise missiles, and decoys may lead an attack, spewing radar beams and flooding computer networks with viruses. But they will have to be built to defeat powerful radar networks and fast missiles with can't-miss seekers.

Years of fighting low-tech insurgencies have increased military reliance on UAVs that are easily spotted on radar. "We've got to start planning to build systems and to field capabilities to fight in a contested environment again," the Air Force's new military deputy for acquisition, Lt. Gen. Charles Davis, said in a recent interview with the Air Force Times. So, in one form or another, the duel will continue.

As of now, no S-300 surface-to-air weapon has ever been fired at a target in anger. The Lightning II is still in testing, and the debut of its style of networked warfare is years away. Their matchup awaits. Only then will the war of words between detractors, engineers, salesmen, and journalists be settled—in combat, with lives at stake and history in the balance.
So where does the Rafale fit in with these anti-air threats which threaten even the latest stealth birds?
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

During joint exercises Indo-French Air Force under the code Garuda V commanders military aircraft from both countries made ​​familiarization flights on the fighters, reports aereo.jor.br June 9.

The commander of the French Air Force Gen. Denis Mercier (Denis Mercier) flew on the Su-30MKI Indian Air Force, and his Indian counterpart, Air Marshal Arup Raha (Arup Raha) on the fighter Rafale French Air Force (upper photo). The exercises were held on the basis of Dzhohpur Air India.
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Groan.

AASM in debut firing from F-16

Sagem's Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) Hammer SBU-38 precision guided munition (PGM) has been successfully launched from a Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first launch of the PGM from a non-French made aircraft.

The firing test was carried out by the US Air Force's (USAF's) 40th Flight Test Squadron, operating out of the test centre in Eglin, Florida, on 30 May, sources told IHS Jane's .

This successful launch is of key importance to Sagem in enabling it to offer the AASM to export customers equipped with the F-16. Currently, the only customer for the AASM is France which operates the PGM from its Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft. However, France's order was dramatically reduced due to budgetary constraints from a planned 4,200 units to only 1,728 - meaning the company needs to find an export customer before mid-2016 in order to keep its production line open.

Sagem have designed the AASM to be compliant with NATO Universal Armament Interface (NUAI) standards - aimed at facilitating the functional integration of new weapons, without modification to the aircraft, and therefore reduce associated adaptation costs. This allowed the AASM to be fired by the USAF F-16, with the firing taking part due to French and United States participation in a NATO 'Smart Defence' project dedicated to the NUAI standard. This project also involves the NUAI programme office at the Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio.


Janes
____________________________________


Fear not Sagem. Our coffers are open. :sigh:
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Jun 2014 10:54, edited 1 time in total.
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Just for reference -


AASM bomb too expensive ?


According to La tribune newspaper, the CPRA (french equivalent of the british GAO) is pointing out the excessive cost of the Sagem AASM smart bomb used on the Rafale.

La tribune reports that a single AASM would cost €351,158 to the french tax payer (total program cost of €846 million for 2,346 units). The high price would be mainly due to the 3-4 years delay during the devellopment of the weapon caused by program management issues.

Sagem has denied those figures on the well known "Secret Defense" blog, stating that the french armed forces will buy some 4,148 AASM, bringing down the total unit price to €200,000.



^ From 2010.

As of 2014, the orders have been capped at 1,728 units. Which would put the total acquisition cost at over $550,000 each (production cost will be lower though).
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Jun 2014 11:05, edited 1 time in total.
RoyG
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by RoyG »

Laser guided bombs will be the main air to ground weapon of our fleet. Not the AASM.
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

RoyG wrote:Laser guided bombs will be the main air to ground weapon of our fleet. Not the AASM.
If its plain vanilla short range PGM employment that we're interested in (as opposed to the 'omni-role' capability), the Tejas or Jaguar can do it perfectly well with the Litening pod & Paveway.
Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

We need LGB , AASM , Stand-Off PGM and even Dumb Bombs just depends on what target you want to take out and risk involved and use accordingly.

BTW any news on Rafale vs MKI duel ?
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:We need LGB , AASM , Stand-Off PGM and even Dumb Bombs just depends on what target you want to take out and risk involved and use accordingly.
The AASM is a stand off PGM with options for laser, IR and GPS guidance.

The issue is its too expensive for short range PGM (EPvII/Spice/Sudarshan), too expensive for anti-vehicle roles (Brimstone/Maverick/JAGM) and too expensive for long range employment (JDAM-ER/JSOW-C).

It was intended to do all three roles, but unfortunately has ended up suitable for none (unlike the SDB which excels at all three at a moderate cost).
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