Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[Austin]

IAF has range of options when it comes to PGM's and AASM will not be the only kid on the block , Since Rafale comes with complete SW integrating Indian , Israel ,US or Russian system wont be difficult if IAF wants it.

So its not if IAF buys Rafale it will just have AASM or just MBDA systems ... and it would limited to Rafale , I can see Tejas , MKI , FGFA besides Rafale having complete flexibility when it comes to weapons integration and weapons of choice available.

[arthuro]

It must be reminded that quoted price are not production costs which must be much much lower, as a matter of fact SAGEM intends to export the AASM which would be impossible if those figures were realistic. In fact SAGEM contested this figure telling the real price is "considerably lower"

l'industriel Sagem conteste le chiffre unitaire donné ci-dessus. "Le prix réel est considérablement inférieur" assure l'industriel, sans le communiquer pour des raisons commerciales.

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... ièce-.html
One piece of information I had from a conference I attended which was organized by the french navy back in April 2012 on the Lybian campaign (my own question from the Q&A at the end) is that for lower collateral damage they considered the Brimstone as an option for integration but was deemed to expensive as it was even more costly than an AASM. They eventually used concrete bombs or training bombs to knock off tanks in urban environment.

[arthuro]

New Indian government pledges to speed buys

“Delay, indecision and lack of clarity in defense procurement have gone to seriously erode the combat fitness of the services. For instance, even as IAF continues to be handicapped by the problem of squadron depletion, the deal to acquire the MMRCA could never be finalized—even two years after the aircraft emerged a winner in the closely contested tender,” says Radhakrishna Rao, visiting fellow at the think tank Vivekananda International Foundation. “Incidentally, while IAF has sufficient heavier Su-30 MKI combat aircraft and the lighter Mirage-2000 and MiG-21 Bs in its fleet, it is lacking in medium-range multirole fighters.”

In the near term, all eyes are focused on two key stalled weapons programs, the acquisition of 126 Rafale medium-multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and 197 light-utility helicopters (LUH). “There is a perception that the acquisition process has slowed down in the last few years,” says Jaitley, a seasoned politician and corporate lawyer. “Expediting them would be a top priority.”
An official from Dassault, which manufactures Rafale, tells Aviation Week, “We are expecting the deal to be signed anytime now.”

http://aviationweek.com/defense/industr ... government

[member_26622]

Good indication that Dassault folks are getting very nervous. Who in sane minds will go about bragging otherwise.

They are really afraid with F-35's progress since the MMRCA saga started. It's so much more bang for the SAME amount of bucks

Here is where F-35 scores over euro-canards

1. Real Stealth - no hokey pokey stuff
2. True 5th generation plus aircraft
3. Sensor fusion from a country which has been using AESA for 10 plus years now (I mean deployed, not lab work)
4. Affordable armaments given huge production run (not 2x or 3x but 10X times of RAFALE)
5. Assured to be enhanced over next 15 years, unlike end of life cycle eurocanards

[Viv S]

It must be reminded that quoted price are not production costs which must be much much lower, as a matter of fact SAGEM intends to export the AASM which would be impossible if those figures were realistic. In fact SAGEM contested this figure telling the real price is "considerably lower"

Actually you'll find that I specified in my post that $550K was the program cost not production cost. See above.

However, production cost too does depend on the scale of production.

AASM - 1,728

JSOW - 10,334

SDB I - 12,300

SDB II - 17,000

JAGM - 34,000

One piece of information I had from a conference I attended which was organized by the french navy back in April 2012 on the Lybian campaign (my own question from the Q&A at the end) is that for lower collateral damage they considered the Brimstone as an option for integration but was deemed to expensive as it was even more costly than an AASM. They eventually used concrete bombs or training bombs to knock off tanks in urban environment.

The dual-mode Brimstone's program cost is about $300,000, so I assumed it would be cheaper than the AASM. Its possible that the AASM came out to be cheaper when factoring in its sunk cost. In either case, Brimstone is again an MBDA product and suffers from the same issues of scale as the AASM.

[Viv S]

IAF has range of options when it comes to PGM's and AASM will not be the only kid on the block , Since Rafale comes with complete SW integrating Indian , Israel ,US or Russian system wont be difficult if IAF wants it.

Every non-source weapon will have go through its own specific integration process. Software integration. Data-link integration. Fit check. Separation tests. It'll take a long time before HAL is in position to independently modify the aircraft. In the interim, costs will footed be footed by the Indian taxpayer and defined by the contractor.

And its not just the AASM. The MICA, Meteor and SCALP-EG are all a pricey propositions. The Meteor is a fantastic weapon but not affordable in bulk - it was costing the Brits £2.1 million or $3.5 million (incl dev). We're not likely to get it for under $4 mil. Also, its not going to be upgraded as often as its US peers and it'll face stiffer competition before long. The Israeli multi-pulse Stunner is being advertised as comparable, plus eventually the AMRAAM will be replaced based to tech from DARPA's ramjet T3 program. Same for the SCALP-EG, cost multiple times more than the JSOW-ER and at least 50% more than the JASSM.

The Mirage being equipped with MICAs priced at $2.4 million each, instead of the in-service Derby or the Astra which will start deliveries in the MICA's delivery time-frame (i.e. 2015-19), so I'm skeptical about French munitions being replaced on the IAF's Rafales.

[Philip]

For all JSF enthusiasts ,recommending that bird for the IAF,some real facts.USN IOC 2019 only.USMC FOC 2017 expected.That means even if we evaluate the aircraft...and you know how long that will take in the Indian context,new dispensation nevertheless,at least a year,plus huge contractual deliberations,just see how long it has taken for the Rafale,2012 to 2025 may be the earliest timeframe when the aircraft could enter service,as there are also orders for US allies.We are now in 2014,midway.What do we do to augment our capability,dramatically falling in the current timeframe? We need MIG-21 replacements,plus an MMRCA right now! Even if we are able to get a few JSFs by 2010-2012,they will be mainly of ornamental value,too few in number to make much difference in a major conflict. The rafale can be inducted almost immediately from existing French stocks,returned later when new build ones arrive,just as we did with the Jaguar acquisition.

If the Rafale is found too expensive,then we must either cut its numbers,modify the decision on TOT and buy some extra MIG-29s,SU-30MKIs,whatever-aircraft in service to keep capabilities from deteriorating.Other nations all around the world are doing the same,cost-cutting by reducing numbers and buying more 4++ gen aircraft to bolster the fleet,so too should the IAF examine that option.Buying 3/4 sqds instead of 6 may be acceptable to the MOD/GOI for the interim.The 60+ MIG-29UGs could be raised to 100-120+ with new 29s/35s.

[NRao]

JSF, if I am not mistaken, is via FMS.

Where it will take some time is areas where Indian eqipmrnt will need to be substituted. Israel took some 4 years IIRC, plus some $500- million for system integration.

And they also took the "F-35I" badge.

[member_26622]

Phillip - Your love affair with Mig's and Su's is admirable buddy!

More research seems to just add up to why Rafale is old dressed up Hag trying to hook up with our young desi lad here- check http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... 0X20140401

some excerpts:
Assistant Air Force Secretary William LaPlante said the price of the new A-model F-35 is on track to drop from $112 million now to the mid-$80 million range by 2018 or 2019, but the program is developing plans to drive the price even lower.

The Government Accountability Office, a congressional watchdog agency, remains skeptical about those efforts, noting that the A-model jets procured in 2013 cost $124.8 million each, about $41 million above the Pentagon's target for 2019.

Here is the Joke or our Chutiya*ah shining through - your interpretation

- the super rich dude USAF is complaining that early prototype F-35 cost them $ 124.8 million while We are fine paying the same for Rafale. Sounds similar to our pimped up helicopter procurement from Italian motherland.
- Even if they come half way in between current and future goal - it's likely to be a sub 100 million plane
- Here is the chanakya strategy >> To keep costs low, we can 'OFFER' to build these here in Desh! heck we can build under 50 million $ right where US wants to buy at.

As far as delivery schedule - We got the P-8i Poseidon like hamburgers rolling off McDonalds before even USAF. Boeing wanted to make an impression and they made it happen! Expect same level of service from Lockheed. I can bet these will be there before Rafale even show up!

[Viv S]

For all JSF enthusiasts ,recommending that bird for the IAF,some real facts.USN IOC 2019 only.USMC FOC 2017 expected.That means even if we evaluate the aircraft...and you know how long that will take in the Indian context,new dispensation nevertheless,at least a year,plus huge contractual deliberations,just see how long it has taken for the Rafale,2012 to 2025 may be the earliest timeframe when the aircraft could enter service,as there are also orders for US allies.

What does IOC have to do with the production? The IsAF will start taking deliveries from 2016.

FYI, the time from long lead order to the start of deliveries is about three years. So an order placed in 2016 will result in deliveries starting in 2019. Earlier, if necessary.

And this 'only-after-US-allies' is an absolutely ridiculous justification. The USN needs some 100 P-8s delivered by the end of the decade. Did that stop P-8I deliveries to India?

Fact is, the program has plenty of surplus capacity, has a production line being scaled up for huge volumes and can deliver whatever number the IAF requires. The IAF can get 126 F-35s by 2023 if it wants.

We are now in 2014,midway.What do we do to augment our capability,dramatically falling in the current timeframe?

Just how does the Rafale contract address this issue? Two squadrons by 2020 is all the IAF will receive. At best. Could even be less.

We need MIG-21 replacements,plus an MMRCA right now! Even if we are able to get a few JSFs by 2010-2012,they will be mainly of ornamental value,too few in number to make much difference in a major conflict. The rafale can be inducted almost immediately from existing French stocks,returned later when new build ones arrive,just as we did with the Jaguar acquisition.

The IAF can have two squadrons of F-35s by 2020, if required. And the result will be a huge capability augmentation compared to that by a similar number of Rafales.

If the Rafale is found too expensive,then we must either cut its numbers,modify the decision on TOT and buy some extra MIG-29s,SU-30MKIs,whatever-aircraft in service to keep capabilities from deteriorating.Other nations all around the world are doing the same,cost-cutting by reducing numbers and buying more 4++ gen aircraft to bolster the fleet,so too should the IAF examine that option.Buying 3/4 sqds instead of 6 may be acceptable to the MOD/GOI for the interim.The 60+ MIG-29UGs could be raised to 100-120+ with new 29s/35s.

Reducing the Rafale orders will make the aircraft more expensive not less.

There plenty of alternative options not just MiG-35s. Scaled up Tejas production. Mirage 2000s from Qatar and UAE (or even France). MiG-29s from Hungary. New Su-30s. EF T1s. Leased Gripens. Maybe even leased EFs or Rafales.

[Austin]

Every non-source weapon will have go through its own specific integration process. Software integration. Data-link integration. Fit check. Separation tests. It'll take a long time before HAL is in position to independently modify the aircraft. In the interim, costs will footed be footed by the Indian taxpayer and defined by the contractor.

And its not just the AASM. The MICA, Meteor and SCALP-EG are all a pricey propositions. The Meteor is a fantastic weapon but not affordable in bulk - it was costing the Brits £2.1 million or $3.5 million (incl dev). We're not likely to get it for under $4 mil. Also, its not going to be upgraded as often as its US peers and it'll face stiffer competition before long. The Israeli multi-pulse Stunner is being advertised as comparable, plus eventually the AMRAAM will be replaced based to tech from DARPA's ramjet T3 program. Same for the SCALP-EG, cost multiple times more than the JSOW-ER and at least 50% more than the JASSM.

The Mirage being equipped with MICAs priced at $2.4 million each, instead of the in-service Derby or the Astra which will start deliveries in the MICA's delivery time-frame (i.e. 2015-19), so I'm skeptical about French munitions being replaced on the IAF's Rafales.

IAF has always maintained wide weapons source even existing PGM weapons are from French , US , Russia and Israel and are cross tested on various platforms with sensors like Lightening integrated across board.

Same goes for AAM with inventory of Russian and French A2A and WVR missile even Israel system A2A M integrated into a realiable aircraft. LCA most certainly have Israel A2A missile.

In future too for Rafale and FGFA we can expect such wide weapons integrated with the change being multiple Indian PGM would also join the list with perhaps reduction of imported PGM of types we develop.

Its hard to put a cost atm and cost will drop as we bulk buy over period of years and Capability has its cost too.

Again the point being inspite of having 2 Fighters in the MMRCA race IAF did not consider it for MMRCA after going thought comprehensive test the Rafale came on the top , Should speak well for Rafale and IAF professionalism during the selection process.

IF past experience has any thing to go by when ever IAF has selected a fighter based on its professional assessment it has always turned out to be good and till this date many types are in service.

[member_26622]

If I may interject here

IAF was never able to get to its required squadron numbers because the Buffo*s wanted every darn flying aircraft in sight (pardon my 'slight' exaggeration). The cost of training, fielding and setting up maintenance facilities and beg*ing around every corner of the world for spares is EQUIVALENT to ten to fifteen additional squadrons.

If their is absolutely anything to learn from USAF then it is - Reduce the variety and increase the numbers to reduce unit cost and lifetime costs.

SU-30 MKI, LCA and F-35 (only because we were sitting on our lazy as*es / smok*ing P*t / keeping backsh**sh door open for future resulted in a decade long delay for in-house AMCA development) is all I propose. Rest all of the flying squadrons should be retired when they reach their airframe life (avoid 60 million $ rip off for another upgrade like M2000 from Euro colonials).

Focus everything on in-house development after this!

[Austin]

Standardisation is good be it aircraft or weapons but IAF or for that matter service have had their own reason to diversify , One was to not to keep all the eggs in one basket and other was to bring in the advantage that individual weapons from East and West bring in and integrate it as part of platform and its doctrine.

Once the existing types of Jags , 29 and M2K are out of service by 2035 then we can have a more streamlined fleet of Tejas , Rafale , FGFA , MKI and even AMCA.

A lot of it also political decision beyond IAF control eg IAF needed 126 M2K in 1999 but the then government went for MMRCA tender in its wisdom

[arthuro]

The F35 will only be an option for some eternal dreamers. There is no way the F35 could have ever have fit in the MRCA conditions as laid out by India : The US would have never allowed for full ToT and license production of the F35 in India !

And even if in a "what if" speculative scenario you considered this option of an indian build F35, the cost would have been massive, far exceeding that of an Indian built rafale.

As far as french and european weapons are concerned, they are still widely exported. The MICA for instance is operational in several air forces as well as in several navies as a SAM and it did not prevent export of mirage 2000-mk2 and then rafale in MRCA etc...

That's why I believe the "weapon price" argument is widely exaggerated. Certainly european weapons are often more expensive than their US or Russian counterparts but not in the magnitude described here with only inaccurate estimates. For instance there is no way a MICA could cost 4.2 million $ a pop for India straight out the factory...The contract must obviously include other aspects which are not disclosed to the public as training, indigenous support, maintenance facilities etc...which could be amortized/spread with another order for the rafale for instance. If this price was realistic the MICA would never have been an export success on international markets...Nor the India would have accept to modernize its mirage 2000 fleet and then chose the rafale.

[Viv S]

IAF has always maintained wide weapons source even existing PGM weapons are from French , US , Russia and Israel and are cross tested on various platforms with sensors like Lightening integrated across board.

Same goes for AAM with inventory of Russian and French A2A and WVR missile even Israel system A2A M integrated into a realiable aircraft. LCA most certainly have Israel A2A missile.

The wide variety of munitions was a result of operating a wide variety of aircraft. And not a strength but a major failure of the Indian procurement process.

In future too for Rafale and FGFA we can expect such wide weapons integrated with the change being multiple Indian PGM would also join the list with perhaps reduction of imported PGM of types we develop.

Problem is, we will buy French munitions, they will be hugely expensive, and as usual more money spent here will means less money for other equally (if not more) critical requirements.

Again the point being inspite of having 2 Fighters in the MMRCA race IAF did not consider it for MMRCA after going thought comprehensive test the Rafale came on the top , Should speak well for Rafale and IAF professionalism during the selection process.

IF past experience has any thing to go by when ever IAF has selected a fighter based on its professional assessment it has always turned out to be good and till this date many types are in service.

No one, least of all me, is questioning the IAF's professionalism. The IAF was not tasked with carrying out a cost-benefit analysis of the MMRCA contenders (the RFP for which predated the F-35). As a matter of fact, cost didn't the equation until the down-select and as a result we're staring at a bill in excess of $20 billion.

The responsibility for the current state of affairs lies with MoD as does the responsibility for making a prudent decision now. And the way forward lies in the Tejas Mk1 & Mk2. Hopefully pressure from the MoF finally result in the MoD making the hard but necessary choice, even if it means overruling the IAF.

[Austin]

Its not a failure but a way to mitigate risk in a complex geo-political situation we live in , Indian procurement process have evolved over 5 decades of geo-political situation and defence budget available and due to lack of Indiginous solution available over these period.

It would be a good idea to stream line our Defence procurement and with indiginous solution now available in the next 3 decades it would be possible to achieve that goal , with ideal scenario being getting to 90 % indiginous procurement during this period but I would be happy if its even 75 %.


MOD will come into the picture once IAF down selects it , Only the Eurofighter and Rafale met IAF cut and between the two Rafale was a cost effective option selected by MOF/MOD

[brar_w]

@VIV the F-35 CANNOT be a candidate for the MMRCA, not due to the underlying premise for its existence. Even though i do not agree with the approach to the program (not differentiating between the fighter acquisition and technology acquisition elements) I still think that the air force would be hard pressed to find a better fighter than the Rafale. The JSF advocates (for the IAF) need to factor in at least a decade of negotiations to develop a TOT arrangement and even then the arrangement would not be as extensive as that which is demanded on the Rafale. Simply put, a successful 5th gen program would not give you such loose a rope as a 4.5 gen program that has production brought down to a trickle and that is desperately in need of an export success. Sometimes we look at these deals as being too high, at the molecular level these negotiations are probably not much different from our basic bargain at the local karyana Those that have better cards get better concessions. We have an extensive edge in the rafale deal due to the position of that program at the moment (french postponing orders, and no export success) and our projected defense spending in the next 20-30 years. The french know this and want a strong presence in the market.

[Viv S]

The F35 will only be an option for some eternal dreamers. There is no way the F35 could have ever have fit in the MRCA conditions as laid out by India : The US would have never allowed for full ToT and license production of the F35 in India !

ToT and license production of a 4.5G aircraft post-2020 for $20 billion+. The only winners are the contractor and the PLAAF.

And even if in a "what if" speculative scenario you considered this option of an indian build F35, the cost would have been massive, far exceeding that of an Indian built rafale.

The 'what if' scenario compares a off-the-shelf F-35 with an off-the-shelf Rafale. Same cost. Huge difference in capability.

As far as french and european weapons are concerned, they are still widely exported. The MICA for instance is operational in several air forces as well as in several navies as a SAM and it did not prevent export of mirage 2000-mk2 and then rafale in MRCA etc...

Exports -

Mirage 2000: 275
F-16: 2,500+

That's why I believe the "weapon price" argument is widely exaggerated. Certainly european weapons are often more expensive than their US or Russian counterparts but not in the magnitude described here with only inaccurate estimates. For instance there is no way a MICA could cost 4.2 million $ a pop for India straight out the factory...

The MICA is $2.4 million per unit. AIM-120-C7 is $1.7 million per unit. (link) Both prices include logistics and training.

If this price was realistic the MICA would never have been an export success on international markets...Nor the India would have accept to modernize its mirage 2000 fleet and then chose the rafale.

Issue is not what is a success and what is not. Its what provides India maximum bang-for-the-buck. And fact is US products offer far better value-for-money. This is not an indictment of European engineering. Its simply a result of very disparate economies of scale.

[brar_w]

ToT and license production of a 4.5G aircraft post-2020 for $20 billion+. The only winners are the contractor and the PLAAF

Not really.

I have been thinking about this for some days now. Even with Modi, do we have the BABU sena that has demonstrated enough capability to make transformational technology acquisition efforts? My idea was always to separate the elements into one element that was to get the best possible fighter to the air force at the earliest possible timeframe to rectify squadron strength concerns and the other to inject developed, advanced technology to the indian MIC. I advocated (and still do) a policy of aggressive direct technology acquisition on part of the indian defence establishment and the private sector looking to make a substantial entry. Having thought long hard on this my own belief is that we lack the transformational strength in the MOD to see this strategy through in a time critical fashion (spending a billion here to acquire todays' technology 20 years from now is hardly worth it) so the incompetence of our own babu force to craft this strategy leaves us the only real option of spending 5th gen prices (and then some) to acquire 4.5 gen aircraft with sizable TOT. Lets hope the strategic changes are made in the raksha mantralya to better position the defence industry in the 21st century, until that happens it would be hard to blame the current acquisition strategy, of looking at TOT at every possible deal we make (foreign deal) rather than having a direct, aggressive strategy to buy technology en masse and delink it to buying critical weapons systems.

[Viv S]

@VIV the F-35 CANNOT be a candidate for the MMRCA, not due to the underlying premise for its existence.

Bw, where did you hear me advocate introducing the F-35 into the MMRCA process?

To put it simply -

- Cancel the FGFA. Cancel the MMRCA.

- Set up a second Tejas line and push production to at least two squadrons annually. Complement that with additional orders for the ERJ-145 AEW&C and A330.

- In 2016, evaluate the PAK FA against the F-35. Buy one off-the-shelf and include the other company in the AMCA.

- Invest in the AMCA. Heavily.

Even with Modi, do we have the BABU sena that has demonstrated enough capability to make transformational technology acquisition efforts?

Question is - what transformational technology are we getting through the Rafale? And where do we apply it? Its too late for the Tejas and inadequate for the AMCA. Also how do we ensure that the ToT is effectively absorbed? Is it worth paying for? (And we are paying for it.)

DRDO and HAL developed the Tejas Mk1 from scratch on a shoestring budget. 4 channel digital FBW. Composite airframe. Glass cockpit. Integrated EW suite (incl DRFM jammer). MAWS. All for barely over a billion and at a dirt cheap unit cost - $24M. The Mk2 and naval variant are being funded with just $500 million. Can you imagine what they'd deliver backed with real funding?

[brar_w]

Question is - what transformational technology are we getting through the Rafale?

My reference was not the technology but the transformational strategy of directly acquiring technology i.e. not only acquiring technology or "know-how" when we buy something, but buying technology without investing in platforms. Its a business strategy and not a product purchase.

What I am suggesting is (a hypothetical scenario just as an example) a 25% stake in SAAB, or a 15% stake in SELEX, or a 25% stake in BaE systems. Or a 5 Billion dollar joint venture between Tata and BaE systems (backed by the Indian MOD's strategic acquisition department) that covers key high tech R&D efforts.

[arthuro]

ToT and license production of a 4.5G aircraft post-2020 for $20 billion+. The only winners are the contractor and the PLAAF.

Question is - what transformational technology are we getting through the Rafale? And where do we apply it? Its too late for the Tejas and inadequate for the AMCA. Also how do we ensure that the ToT is effectively absorbed? Is it worth paying for? (And we are paying for it.)

If you can't retrofit the airframe, 4.5G aircrafts do not necessarily suffer any technological gap compared to 5th gen aircrafts and that is especially true against Chinese wannabe 5th gen aircrafts.

ToT and license production of the rafale brings: AESA technology, integrated avionics, true multi sensor fusion and advanced EW which is very valuable to acquire the knowledge and know how to build a new generation Indian fighter aircraft. One thing which must be stressed is that those capabilities on the rafale are 1) mature 2) proven and evaluated 3) evolving and improving....This is no wishful thinking, it exists and the hugely complex ToT agreement is now settled. Any other alternative would postpone the process for several more years.

And wait a second...The rafale have beaten in a fair technical evaluation some of the best fighter jets available on earth. Their must be something to learn about it (!). And this is not just about ToT but also developing a strong and modern network of local suppliers for thousands of different items essential for an aircraft. This is also what brings the rafale : preparing the foundation for the AMCA.

You could pay for the ToT directly but if you don't have this industry network able to manufacture a 5th gen aircraft from engine to radar etc...You will still be dependent.

The rafale will reorganize, consolidate and develop Indian aeronautic industry which will be an essential step for AMCA. Learning is a long term process and resulting to extensively on consulting for AMCA if you skip this step means that your are not independent after all.

The MICA is $2.4 million per unit. AIM-120-C7 is $1.7 million per unit. (link) Both prices include logistics and training.

The link does not prove anything since you don't have any detail on the condition of the deal. For instance Korea already had Amrams with already existing facilities which are also probably shared with the US due to their military presence in that country. You could imagine that Korea is probably not as demanding as India in terms of indigenous support...Your assumption that deals are comparable in scope is just speculative. Again The Mica was widely exported (for a french missile) with even a very recent export for Omani Navy.

The 'what if' scenario compares a off-the-shelf F-35 with an off-the-shelf Rafale. Same cost. Huge difference in capability.

The F35 is more expensive than the rafale both in terms of acquisition costs and life cycle costs. Let's take SAAB PR for once:

Issue is not what is a success and what is not. Its what provides India maximum bang-for-the-buck. And fact is US products offer far better value-for-money. This is not an indictment of European engineering. Its simply a result of very disparate economies of scale.

Agree for overall value for money but you forget that you must factor other element otherwise you would have an almost 100% US equipped force and a much more limited independence. 1) Politically it seems that India is not ready to rely completely on the US and still value France as a trustworthy ally 2) With France you can extract more ToT and customize/develop their products more easily than with the US and their FMS procedure : cheap and excellent value for money but you have to be a gentle poodle and respect US will...

All in all US products certainly offer excellent value for money due to economy of scale but their are attached with much more strings: less independence....India did not chose a US fighter aircraft for a reason...

[brar_w]

The F35 is more expensive than the rafale both in terms of acquisition costs and life cycle costs. Let's take SAAB PR for once

The problem with that PR is that the last 5-6 years both the procurement cost and the operating cost of the F-35 has come down (and not gone up or stayed the same). A big peril to compare an in development 5th gen jet to operational 4.5th gen jets.

ToT and license production of the rafale brings: AESA, integrated avionics, true multi sensor fusion and advanced EW which is very valuable to acquire the knowledge and know how to build a new generation Indian fighter aircraft. One thing which must be stressed is that those capabilities on the rafale are 1) mature 2) proven and evaluated 3) evolving and improving....This is no wishful thinking, it exists and the hugely complex ToT agreement is now settled. Any other alternative would postpone the process for several more years

If we get all this, it would be great.

All in all US products certainly offer excellent value for money due to economy of scale but their are attached with much more strings: less independence....India did not chose a US fighter aircraft for a reason...

Correct. Rapid indigenous capability development through technology acquisition. The quicker the better !

[Viv S]

If you can't retrofit the airframe, 4.5G aircrafts do not necessarily suffer any technological gap compared to 5th gen aircrafts and that is especially true against Chinese wannabe 5th gen aircrafts.

Was 'retrofitting' the airframe ever a possibility? Every major Asia-Pacific air force is investing in fifth generation stealth aircraft. Support for your idea that an advanced fourth generation will suffice appears weak on the ground.

ToT and license production of the rafale brings: AESA technology, integrated avionics, true multi sensor fusion and advanced EW which is very valuable to acquire the knowledge and know how to build a new generation Indian fighter aircraft.

AESA, integrated avionics, sensor fusion and advanced EW can be developed without paying Dassault or Thales for it. Not to mention the actual core competencies are built up by pursuing a development process rather than purchasing 'blueprints' for a foreign system.

One thing which must be stressed is that those capabilities on the rafale are 1) mature 2) proven and evaluated 3) evolving and improving....This is no wishful thinking, it exists and the hugely complex ToT agreement is now settled. Any other alternative would postpone the process for several more years.

It is, despite its 'discrete philosophy' still a fourth gen aircraft and unsuitable for taking on the sort of high-end IADS or airborne threats that India faces.

And wait a second...The rafale have beaten in a fair technical evaluation some of the best fighter jets available on earth. Their must be something to learn about it (!).

We 'learned' that the Rafale was a better aircraft than the Gripen E/F, Super Hornet, MiG-35 and F-16E/F.

And this is not just about ToT but also developing a strong and modern network of local suppliers for thousands of different items essential for an aircraft. This is also what brings the rafale : preparing the foundation for the AMCA.

That foundation can built even without forking over $20 billion+ for the Rafale.

You could pay for the ToT directly but if you don't have this industry network able to manufacture a 5th gen aircraft from engine to radar etc...You will still be dependent.

The Rafale isn't a 5th gen aircraft, and the Indian industry already builds fourth generation aircraft from engine to radar.

The rafale will reorganize, consolidate and develop Indian aeronautic industry which will be an essential step for AMCA. Learning is a long term process and resulting to extensively on consulting for AMCA if you skip this step means that your are not independent after all.

Investing the capital into the AMCA directly will do a lot more for learning than using it to pay for ToT.

The link does not prove anything since you don't have any detail on the condition of the deal. For instance Korea already had Amrams with already existing facilities which are also probably shared with the US due to their military presence in that country. You could imagine that Korea is probably not as demanding as India in terms of indigenous support...Your assumption that deals are comparable in scope is just speculative.

Its an off-the-shelf purchase of AAMs and storage/support costs aren't usually too high. Plus the fixed costs for the MICA would have been amortized over a larger order (450 units) than the AIM-120C (260 units).

In any case, the disparity in cost is far too high to be explained away by technicalities. $1.73M for the AMRAAM and $2.73M for the MICA ($1.23B/450).

Again The Mica was widely exported (for a french missile) with even a very recent export for Omani Navy.

AMRAAM exports far outstrip that of the MICA.

The F35 is more expensive than the rafale both in terms of acquisition costs and life cycle costs. Let's take SAAB PR for once:

Where is the acquisition cost given in that SAAB chart? The flyaway cost for both is in the $75-80 mil range. Might even be less for the F-35. Also, estimates for the F-35's life-cycle cost have fallen in the last few years.

(BTW the chart suggests that the Gripen E offers performance comparable to the Rafale at a fraction of the cost. Food for thought.)

Agree for overall value for money but you forget that you must factor other element otherwise you would have an almost 100% US equipped force and a much more limited independence. 1) Politically it seems that India is not ready to rely completely on the US and still value France as a trustworthy ally

Fear of a 100% US equipped force is not an issue for us. The military operates plenty of equipment sourced from Russia and Israel. And the proportion of local equipment continues to improve.

'Trustworthy ally'... that has been lobbying the EU to formally lift the arms embargo on China. Lets not get carried away with high rhetoric here

2) With France you can extract more ToT and customize/develop their products more easily than with the US and their FMS procedure : cheap and excellent value for money but you have to be a gentle poodle and respect US will...

India isn't a rich country. We can't afford to let value-for-money be a secondary concern. That means equipment at 'boutique' prices is a plain no-no. BTW that doesn't exclude European manufacturers that can deliver cost effective equipment such as Eurocopter and Airbus.

Also, buying US weapons doesn't mean India has been reduced to a position of subservience in our bilateral relationship. Short of attacking a US ally, there's nothing that prevents India from pursuing its national interests.

All in all US products certainly offer excellent value for money due to economy of scale but their are attached with much more strings: less independence....India did not chose a US fighter aircraft for a reason...

India didn't choose a Russian or Swedish fighter either, but it wasn't because they were coming with strings attached. As far as the Rafale is concerned, simple fact is, its too expensive. It can't be paid for without gutting funding from other places.

All the issues of customization and political benefits/downsides come only after the basic requirements are met - cost & capability. Rafale acquisition's cost has increased by over 50% of the sanctioned amount (requiring additional MoF scrutiny) and its qualitative edge vis a vis potential foes has reduced (and will be lost not too far into the future).

[arthuro]

The Rafale isn't a 5th gen aircraft, and the Indian industry already builds fourth generation aircraft from engine to radar.

One has to wonder why bothering buying SU30, paying rafale with ToT, partnering for FGFA if Indian industry was already self reliant. That simply doesn't stand.

If the Tejas had ever been considered as a true alternative you would not have seen the MRCA competition and you would have seen it competing on international markets. Have we already seen the Tejas in international exercise performing against advanced fighter aircraft's ? Have we seen the Tejas in a technical evaluation facing tough competition ? Delusion.

To put it simply -

- Cancel the FGFA. Cancel the MMRCA.

- Set up a second Tejas line and push production to at least two squadrons annually. Complement that with additional orders for the ERJ-145 AEW&C and A330.

- In 2016, evaluate the PAK FA against the F-35. Buy one off-the-shelf and include the other company in the AMCA.

- Invest in the AMCA. Heavily.

To put it simply: that's not IAF choice and it won't happen. Get over it. For the record the IAF just reiterated that the MRCA was its top N°1 priority...

INDIAN AIR FORCE

MEDIUM MULTIROLE COMBAT AIRCRAFT
RECONNAISSANCE & SURVEILLANCE HELICOPTERS (RSH) + ATTACK HELICOPTERS
LOGISTICE & TRANSPORT: HEAVYLIFT HELICOPTERS + DECISION ON MORE C-17s
FLIGHT REFUELLING TANKERS
TRAINER AIRCRAFT (BASIC & INTERMEDIATE)

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... med-Forces

But where is the Tejas in that list Viv S ? Could this mean the IAF thinks the rafale is the best and most realistic solution after all ? (reality check)

After the administration change they should have realized that Tejas was the best solution for MRCA...Why do they stick to the rafale and vow to accelerate its procurement...? Even after being briefed by IAF and even after the rafale just came to india for Garuda fighting against SU30mki. That could have been a good occasion to dismiss the rafale showing it brings nothing special compared to the mki and cost a lot. BUt it did not happened...

After a first week of familiarization flights with WVR combat, one against one, two against one or two against two, LFE (Large Employement Force) combined missions began. Air defense, escort, ground attack, Air interdiction ... The many scenarios lead French and Indian crews to prepare all their missions together and to use their aircraft in realistic complex tactical situations. A training that enhances interoperability between the two air forces in a non-NATO standards governed by the environment that allows airmen to add a string to their bow.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/actus-ai ... e-indienne

I mean scrapping MRCA for Tejas would be very easy and quick way to make up for aircraft shortage (and also way cheaper). Strange. There is something suspect with India (IAF and MoD) pushing for the conclusion of the rafale deal. Or Perhaps they know something that armchair generals ignore...Like the actual survivability of the rafale against sophisticated threats and so on...

What's odd is their something that doesn't fit your arguments : IAF forced to modernize the mirage 2000 at high costs but still choosing the rafale...The rafale is "nothing special" and very expensive compared to a Tejas whatever the block, but India is repeating its will to see the MRCA deal signed while the Tejas is not even in its top priories. This is very strange as two administrations from two political side came to the same conclusion : rafale is a priority...There is something that does not fit!

Despite all odds you keep arguing on scenarios that will never materialize. Nothing wrong with that, it is inoffensive on a discussion board like this. But your Air force and Gov sure does not share your PoV...And they have an actual insight of the rafale and other alternatives which is not your case.

[Viv S]

One has to wonder why bothering buying SU30, paying rafale with ToT, partnering for FGFA if Indian industry was already self reliant. That simply doesn't stand.

Self reliance isn't built by importing equipment. And yes heavily capital allocations for the Rafale and PAK FA will inhibit the goal of self reliance.

If the Tejas had ever been considered as a true alternative you would not have seen the MRCA competition and you would have seen it competing on international markets. Have we already seen the Tejas in international exercise performing against advanced fighter aircraft's ? Have we seen the Tejas in a technical evaluation facing tough competition ? Delusion.

The Tejas got its IOC in Dec 2013. So why would you expect to see it international exercises or markets? As for it being an alternative, that'll be decided by the MoD, not the IAF. If unlike the IAF, the MoD is dedicated to achieving self reliance (which is a stated goal for the new govt), they'll push for its induction. If not, the country will remained mired in import reliance.

To put it simply: that's not IAF choice and it won't happen. Get over it. For the record the IAF just reiterated that the MRCA was its top N°1 priority...

[But where is the Tejas in that list Viv S ? Could this mean the IAF thinks the rafale is the best and most realistic solution after all ? (reality check)

That the air force prefers it is not an adequate argument (case in point: Switzerland & Brazil). The IAF isn't going to sign the cheque out to Dassault, the govt is.

After the administration change they should have realized that Tejas was the best solution for MRCA...Why do they stick to the rafale and vow to accelerate its procurement...? Even after being briefed by IAF and even after the rafale just came to india for Garuda fighting against SU30mki. That could have been a good occasion to dismiss the rafale.

The new govt has vowed to accelerate the Rafale's procurement? I must have missed that news. When did that happen?

I mean scrapping MRCA for Tejas would be very easy and quick to make up for aircraft shortage (and also way cheaper). Strange. There is something suspect with India (IAF and MoD) pushing for the conclusion of the rafale deal. Or Perhaps they know something that armchair generals ignore...Like the actual survivability of the rafale against sophisticated threats and so on...

Not armchair generals. Indian taxpayers.

The Rafale isn't the only procurement on the books. Artillery guns. Light Utility Helicopters. Transport aircraft. Aerial refuelers. Heavy lift helicopters. Naval utility helicopters. Anti-tank missiles. Submarines. AWACS. MRPR aircraft. MBTs. Basic Infantry Kit. And so on.

They're ALL crucial and urgent requirements but the govt isn't swimming in money. A huge pile for the Rafale means less available for something else. Balancing those requests with financial resources isn't the IAF's job its the GoIs. Before long the IAF will need to induct fifth generation aircraft (yes to counter the Chinese IADS) and that too will be an urgent requirement. Unfortunately, your interest is confined to the Rafale and financial considerations don't figure into it.

[NRao]

If the Tejas had ever been considered as a true alternative you would not have seen the MRCA competition and you would have seen it competing on international markets. Have we already seen the Tejas in international exercise performing against advanced fighter aircraft's ? Have we seen the Tejas in a technical evaluation facing tough competition ? Delusion.

That is a perfect description of a western delusion. Monkey us and we will accept you.

[abhik]

Came across this nugget on another thread about our best-friends-forever France.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1669618

...
What about major servicing? Overhauls? Spares? Logistics? In this context, the life cycle of an aircraft is usually around 20-30 years! What happens if the 'pipeline' is throttled in the future due to strategic pressures? Or are we so cock-sure of other-wise? We better not be, because in the past (the '65 ops), the French held back shipments of overhauled engines of the Mystere & Oragaun fighters, which obviously affected the fleet serviceability. ...

[member_23694]

Those who have been pushing for F-35 over Rafale, could someone please clarify my doubt below:

From all the details mentioned in the forum it seems to suggest that F-35 is very good and probably cheap too when compared to Rafale, but then the question is
- Why does IAF not go and buy off the shelf F-35. Anyways Rafale will not come before 2017 and as suggested in the forum , there is going to very high production rate for F-35, So there is a possibility of it being available to India by 2018.
With 126-200 F-35 IAF could become the 2nd largest operator of F-35.
Point is if the IAF is ready to criticize PAK-FA then what prevents it from criticizing Rafale and go for quick off the shelf F-35. Knowing very well that the rest of the world is going for F-35 and PAK-FA does not seem good then why is IAF sticking with Rafale. Or is it that they are not aware of F-35 capabilities and price

- Further why does LM does not play a spoiler to Dassault's party and offer F-35 at the mentioned cheap rate to India. Last I read was

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories462.htm

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed interest.

It seems only we are pushing for purchase of F-35 over Rafale and their does not seem to be any interest from the manufacturers of F-35 to sell it to IAF. If presentation of F-35 to Indian Navy by LM needs authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), then will use of F-35 in case of emergency also need some other authorization

[brar_w]

I am not in favor of the F-35 over the rafale but i'll give you my two paisa worth..

Why does IAF not go and buy off the shelf F-35

The MRCA structure is about fighter squadron strength and key technology transfer. We have spent years on this end. To do a 180 degree turn would be quite a scandal if you ask me, we may go easy on TOT to get a more favorable program cost, but the Rafale it would be, and given the sort of statements coming from the IAF on squadron strength it would be the right decision.

. Anyways Rafale will not come before 2017 and as suggested in the forum , there is going to very high production rate for F-35, So there is a possibility of it being available to India by 2018

It is quite unlikely that any negotiation that begins now, and takes the usual time (or half of that) will result in deliveries of the F-35 by 2018. If you look at the current lot of aircraft deliveries contracts for 2017 deliveries are going to be announced in the next few weeks/months, 2018 long lead items have already been ordered and production plans are fairly frozen. It is not entirely impossible but quite unlikely that any new air force coming into the program would begin to get fighter jets by 2018 in any decent amount.

[arthuro]

The new govt has vowed to accelerate the Rafale's procurement? I must have missed that news. When did that happen?

So we have :

New Indian government pledges to speed buys

“Delay, indecision and lack of clarity in defense procurement have gone to seriously erode the combat fitness of the services. For instance, even as IAF continues to be handicapped by the problem of squadron depletion, the deal to acquire the MMRCA could never be finalized—even two years after the aircraft emerged a winner in the closely contested tender,” says Radhakrishna Rao, visiting fellow at the think tank Vivekananda International Foundation. “Incidentally, while IAF has sufficient heavier Su-30 MKI combat aircraft and the lighter Mirage-2000 and MiG-21 Bs in its fleet, it is lacking in medium-range multirole fighters.”

In the near term, all eyes are focused on two key stalled weapons programs, the acquisition of 126 Rafale medium-multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and 197 light-utility helicopters (LUH). “There is a perception that the acquisition process has slowed down in the last few years,” says Jaitley, a seasoned politician and corporate lawyer. “Expediting them would be a top priority.”
An official from Dassault, which manufactures Rafale, tells Aviation Week, “We are expecting the deal to be signed anytime now.”

http://aviationweek.com/defense/industr ... government

India's New Defense Minister Is Expected to Fast-Track Procurements

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... ocurements

New Indian Regime Will Sign Long-Delayed Deals

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... ayed-deals

India: Defence ministry seeks 25% hike in budget

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 579829.cms

Defence modernisation had slowed down, will be speeded up: Jaitley
[...] The defence modernisation had "slowed down" in the last few years and providing the required equipment to the armed forces in a speedy manner would be the top priority of the Modi government, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said today.
"Speeding up the (procurement of) equipment required for their support are going to be priority areas as far as our Government is concerned.
"We are certainly concerned that in last few years, some of these areas had actually slowed down and therefore expediting them would be a matter of top priority," he said while taking the "additional charge" of the ministry here.
He did not elaborate but was apparently referring to the delay in acquisition of modern equipment for the armed forces such as the 126 multirole combat aircraft, 197 light helicopters and a number of other acquisitions stuck up in the Ministry due to one reason or the other during his predecessor AK Antony's regime.[...]

http://m.financialexpress.com/news/mig2 ... ge/1254838

'Modernisation Priority, Expect Full-Time Def Minister In Few Weeks': Jaitley
[...]Speaking to journalists a short while ago, Jaitley said he was "concerned" about the slow pace of decision-making under the previous government (the M-MRCA and several other contracts remain possibly adrift). 'Modernisation will be my top priority,' he said, in what will calm a lot of anxiety out there. Interestingly, he said that the issue of FDI in defence had come up at a morning meeting, when he took over his chief charge as the country's Finance Minister.[...]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/05/ ... er-in.html

MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 972245.cms

[arthuro]

The Rafale isn't the only procurement on the books. Artillery guns. Light Utility Helicopters. Transport aircraft. Aerial refuelers. Heavy lift helicopters. Naval utility helicopters. Anti-tank missiles. Submarines. AWACS. MRPR aircraft. MBTs. Basic Infantry Kit. And so on.

They're ALL crucial and urgent requirements but the govt isn't swimming in money. A huge pile for the Rafale means less available for something else. Balancing those requests with financial resources isn't the IAF's job its the GoIs. Before long the IAF will need to induct fifth generation aircraft (yes to counter the Chinese IADS) and that too will be an urgent requirement. Unfortunately, your interest is confined to the Rafale and financial considerations don't figure into it.

The key word is "prioritize" and it seems that the military and the government have put the rafale on the very top of the priority list.

Prioritise defence buys: Arun

New Delhi, June 4: The defence ministry is drawing up a list of major acquisitions for the armed forces that should be contracted urgently. Defence minister Arun Jaitley was understood to have asked secretaries to prioritise acquisitions based on urgency of requirement and processing of the cases. Topping the list of pending acquisitions is the fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The IAF selected the Rafale fighter jet over two years ago. The cost of the acquisition of 126 Rafales could now top an estimated $20 billion. The IAF has also projected a need for six additional C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlifters.[...]

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140605/j ... 5Bi0_l_t-5

[Viv S]

The key word is "prioritize" and it seems that the military and the government have put the rafale on the very top of the priority list.

[MoD promises to reduce red tape and speed up procurement] + [Rafale is IAF priority] = [New Indian govt takes vow to accelerate Rafale procurement]

[member_26622]

You know when you have a bad deal when the other party tries to show extreme urgency to close!

It's obvious that the french are afraid of India junking MMRCA contest and outcomes as it's a decade old contest.

If we hold MMRCA contest today. F-35 will enter the fray given the program maturity in last decade.

Even a half blind man can easily select a winner in a physical line up of F-35, Mig-35, Rafael, Eurofighter and Gripen . It's also wild to realize that Eurofighter is more expensive than Rafale, which in turn is more expensive than F-35! Not touching anything from Eurozone.

Can folks even picture such a line up in their minds and pick up their ride (only one choice). But we will be the only country who will buy a Maruti Esteem and be willing to pay the price of a BMW! So much for our analytical prowess.

[eklavya]

Also, buying US weapons doesn't mean India has been reduced to a position of subservience in our bilateral relationship. Short of attacking a US ally, there's nothing that prevents India from pursuing its national interests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally

According to the US Government, Pakistan is a major ally of the US.

[eklavya]

That the air force prefers it is not an adequate argument (case in point: Switzerland & Brazil). The IAF isn't going to sign the cheque out to Dassault, the govt is.

And the Government of India selected the Rafale.

[NRao]

I thought the IAF selected two and that the Rafale was supposedly L1. At $20 billion we have s new meaning to L2.

[member_24770]

Somebody needs to wake up and smell the coffee or chai if you prefer.

The F-15 line is scheduled to go down in 2018 and if South Korea places an order for more planes, it will stay open till 2021. India will never get the Silent Eagle anyway. The F-18 line is scheduled down in 2017, thats not an option.

The F-35 is plagued with problems, it can't fly in bad weather!!! The optical feeds to the pilots helmet have not worked and it is a flying slug, meaning a older Russian or Chinese fighters can out maneuver it, eg. Mig 29. It has cost $400 billion so far and the costs are potentially expected to reach a trillion! F-35 partners are starting to back out, or have backed out, Canada has cut its orders for example.

Options are the French Rafale, Eurofighter or the Russians for a quick fix. Maybe the Swedes. Not sure who decided that the French were going to be cheap, if you have ever been there and looked at their economy one understands what a shambles it truly is. Thirty five hour work weeks, no work in August, a culture of entitlement and you can't fire anyone without a massive payout. No shock that the price tag is going to continue to escalate. Smell the chai and buscits, little logic to the Rafale deal from a cost perspective. However politically it is sound and the French will transfer whatever technology they promise. Was going through Paris when the Indian Rafale potential was announced, it's a big deal there. They will maintain their promises. The Russians will provide the biggest bang for the buck, but its questionable politically and you cannot trust timelines, spares or technology transfer promises.

Indian babus need to get off their rears and get something to plug the gap.

[NRao]

The F-35 is plagued with problems, it can't fly in bad weather!!! The optical feeds to the pilots helmet have not worked and it is a flying slug, meaning a older Russian or Chinese fighters can out maneuver it, eg. Mig 29. It has cost $400 billion so far and the costs are potentially expected to reach a trillion! F-35 partners are starting to back out, or have backed out, Canada has cut its orders for example

Peachy.

MiG-29/35 still there.

[Cosmo_R]

According to the US Government, Pakistan is a major ally of the US.

Major non NATO ally AKA "MUNNA"

Not the same