on Saturday.CheersMULTAN: Five people were murdered in so-called honour killings and four were murdered over property

on Saturday.CheersMULTAN: Five people were murdered in so-called honour killings and four were murdered over property
Why, it will end up in the same way Rah-e-Haq, Rah-e-Raast, Rah-e-Nijat ended up. In failure and Peace Deals with the Taliban.sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?
“The operation has been named Zarb-e-Azb,” it said.
Interesting viewpoint, but wrong, with overemphasis on one's internal state and an dangerously suicidal ignoring of how external pressure can chip away and ultimately weaken the body that seeks to maintain that internal state.A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Shiv,
Once the Pakistanis find their irrational fears to be rational and well-founded, they may then turn even more irrational. <snip>
If your adversary makes you change your own character, for the worse, as the response to your adversary, then you may win physically, but you have really lost.
I'll put it a third way, if Islamic invaders kidnapped, raped and converted Hindu women, and now fear that Hindus will do that to them; and we depart from Shivaji's policy and behavior and instead kidnap, rape and convert Muslim women, making those fears true, then we have somehow improved the situation.
What is the fundamental fight? It is to be true to our values, our dharma,.
It is a profound error to equate dharma with ahimsa. I believe that we, as a class of Indian who have acquired an essentially modern education, who try hard to reach back to our roots, have deluded ourselves that dharma is linked with ahimsa.svinayak wrote: The sole purpose of State of Pakistan is to reduce the land of the Dharma. The main focus is on reducing the society of dharma , physical space of geography and remove the history of the land.
Pakistan imposes violence because they have only one mechanism as prescribed with demonstrations/examples from the past. Whether it has achieved them (or anybody) anything is beyond their abilities to analyze and learn from is beyond their range.Pakistan imposes violence because they see us as monsters
Absolutely correct assessment. I believe this difference is merely semantic. Islamic texts do not have the word "monster" but all the attributes of kafirs correspond with any attributes that you might want to ascribe to a monster. Kafirs are monsters, to be treated as such. And a kafir/mosnter who does not hit back is one who is seeing the error of his ways and is on the back foot, because the righteous Pakis who are fighting the monster are getting away with violence.kenop wrote:Hakimji
All accepted but thisPakistan imposes violence because they have only one mechanism as prescribed with demonstrations/examples from the past. Whether it has achieved them (or anybody) anything is beyond their abilities to analyze and learn from is beyond their range.Pakistan imposes violence because they see us as monsters
I wonder even if their forefathers saw any kaffirs as monsters. It was just kaffirs that is all. No other quality need to be attributed to the other party for them to treat the kaffirs as prescribed.
sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?
http://www.dawn.com/news/1112909/pakist ... waziristanISLAMABAD: On the directions of the government, the Pakistan Army has launched a comprehensive operation against foreign and local terrorists who are hiding in sanctuaries in North Waziristan Agency, said an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement on Sunday.
“The operation has been named Zarb-e-Azb,” it said.
You have interpreted that post exactly right.A_Gupta wrote: c. India needs to do what is appropriate in a situation; but I take your post from long-ago to mean that India should go out of its way to make Pakistan's fears from irrational to rational.
Pakistan has plenty of money for large scale terror/asymmetric war. They are giving the US a run for its money. They do not have money for F-16s, AMRAAMs and Orion aircraft. The US pays them for that.vijaykarthik wrote:^^ all said and done, Pak only does the training / indoctrination etc. They simply don't have the money to fund large scale terrorist cells. Or so it seems. Funding comes from a different entity. US / KSA mostly. As long as the funding source is cut, that should be a good way to stop terror. And I am sure that US will have enough intelligence to know whats what. Its just that they wont act as it isn't in their best interests.
Hussain Haqqani had issued threats against India ?JE Menon wrote: Haqqani (he of the terror threats against India, not the Haqqani who threatens Americans).
India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.shiv wrote:You have interpreted that post exactly right.
But that post was dealing with the question of handling an entire nation with a paranoid attitude towards India.
An individual human who is paranoid has a serious psychiatric issue. He sees demons where demons do not exist. Whatever therapy is aimed at this individual, he will need physical restriction if he gets violent. Physical restriction will not stop him from seeing demons, but it will reduce the damage he does to himself and others.
This way of handling an individual cannot be applied to an entire nation that displays paranoid behaviour. Pakistan is a country of largely rational people who have been indoctrinated using Islamic principles to regard India with a degree of irrational fear or paranoia. That fear will continue no matter what our behaviour might be. Pakistani paranoia is independent of Indian behaviour. Pakistani paranoia will not get worse if we change our response to Pakistan. But Pakistani paranoia is damaging to India in some ways. We may be able to tolerate propaganda and even economic subversion. But physical attacks should not be tolerated. They should be punished by reducing Pakistani ability and resolve to hit back. If you saw the Monty Python "Black Knight" video - the Knight loses both arms and both legs and still wants to fight, and calls people cowards for not fighting him any more.
The twin advantages of punishing Pakistan is that if they continue to be paranoid after their ability to hit is reduced - that paranoia will be harmless. If they become rational after punishment - it will be beneficial to us because they will have felt pain. Both ways there is an advantage in causing Pakistan pain.
If we do not cause them pain we will never know whether there is rationality behind a veneer of irrationality and we will never be doing what needs to be done to reduce their ability and will to hit us. We are rewarding their irrationality.
The US example you quote is interesting. The US rewarded Pakistani irrationality and is paying the price. Al Qaeda was nothing without Pakistan and Pakistan has been rewarded. Al Qaeda remains undefeated. Pakistan is the problem, as is US inability to see right from wrong.
SSridhar wrote:Why, it will end up in the same way Rah-e-Haq, Rah-e-Raast, Rah-e-Nijat ended up. In failure and Peace Deals with the Taliban.sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?
.........
You are mistaken in thinking that there are only two choices--passivity and war. There is a range of hostile policies that can be adopted and implemented.KrishnaK wrote:India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.shiv wrote:You have interpreted that post exactly right.
But that post was dealing with the question of handling an entire nation with a paranoid attitude towards India.
An individual human who is paranoid has a serious psychiatric issue. He sees demons where demons do not exist. Whatever therapy is aimed at this individual, he will need physical restriction if he gets violent. Physical restriction will not stop him from seeing demons, but it will reduce the damage he does to himself and others.
This way of handling an individual cannot be applied to an entire nation that displays paranoid behaviour. Pakistan is a country of largely rational people who have been indoctrinated using Islamic principles to regard India with a degree of irrational fear or paranoia. That fear will continue no matter what our behaviour might be. Pakistani paranoia is independent of Indian behaviour. Pakistani paranoia will not get worse if we change our response to Pakistan. But Pakistani paranoia is damaging to India in some ways. We may be able to tolerate propaganda and even economic subversion. But physical attacks should not be tolerated. They should be punished by reducing Pakistani ability and resolve to hit back. If you saw the Monty Python "Black Knight" video - the Knight loses both arms and both legs and still wants to fight, and calls people cowards for not fighting him any more.
The twin advantages of punishing Pakistan is that if they continue to be paranoid after their ability to hit is reduced - that paranoia will be harmless. If they become rational after punishment - it will be beneficial to us because they will have felt pain. Both ways there is an advantage in causing Pakistan pain.
If we do not cause them pain we will never know whether there is rationality behind a veneer of irrationality and we will never be doing what needs to be done to reduce their ability and will to hit us. We are rewarding their irrationality.
The US example you quote is interesting. The US rewarded Pakistani irrationality and is paying the price. Al Qaeda was nothing without Pakistan and Pakistan has been rewarded. Al Qaeda remains undefeated. Pakistan is the problem, as is US inability to see right from wrong.
The Pakistani Taliban on Monday warned foreign firms to leave the country after thousands of troops launched a long-awaited offensive in a troubled tribal district along the Afghan border.
"We warn all foreign investors, airlines and multinational corporations that they should immediately suspend their ongoing matters with Pakistan and prepare to leave Pakistan, otherwise they will be responsible for their own loss," said spokesman Shahidullah Shahid in a statement.
It came one week after brazen insurgent attack on Pakistan's main airport in Karachi which left dozens dead and marked the end of a troubled peace process. The Islamist group also vowed to take revenge on the government.
"We hold Nawaz Sharif's government and the Punjabi establishment responsible for the loss of tribal Muslims' life and property as a result of this operation," the statement said.
"The retaliatory actions of the Mujahedeen will make you a cautionary tale in history."
Shahid added that the Taliban would "burn your palaces in Islamabad and Lahore" referring to the capital city and Sharif's hometown, from where he derives his support base.
"Remember that you will once again crave for negotiations and peace, but then it would be too late," {AoA} he added.
The fun starts now! In recent times, immediately after a Chinese person got kidnapped in Pak or after every islamic terror incidents in china, Pak airforce bombed some goats in Waziristan. We didnt discuss in detail the impact of Chinese pressure on Pak army to act against Taliban. While Pakis can play games against gullible Americans, Chinese are not so easily fooled. Didnt the infamous Lal Masjid operation was motivated by Chinese pressure after Chinese massage girls were abducted / threatened by Mullahs? My guess is that the Talibs may not say it openly but they hate Chipanda as much as they hate Uncle.SSridhar wrote: The Chinese should leave now.
Mm, how? At least I fail to see it. For a country to have spare cash to fund 'these' kinds of activities, they need to grow YoY, be innovative, have large productive advantages and have a comparative advantage in something. Factors of efficiencies that can be grown and improved over time ruthlessly. Objectively speaking, Pak does poorly on all the factors. Which shows in their economic indicators and their numbers till date -- they just don't cut it. If that were the case, how do you feel that they have spare cash and have opportunities to fund stupid ideals like terrorism and the like. Lets remember that its far cheaper and easier to help in terrorism as long as there is funding --> Pak does this really well. [They perhaps have a huge comparative advantage there, economically speaking?]. But absent funding, at least I feel that Pak cant keep at this business for long. At least mathematically, I see Pak as a basket case. There doesn't seem great evidence for funding this terrorist perennially all by themselves unless they actually plan to eat grass like their leader once famously mentioned to get the nuclear bomb.shiv wrote:Pakistan has plenty of money for large scale terror/asymmetric war. They are giving the US a run for its money. They do not have money for F-16s, AMRAAMs and Orion aircraft. The US pays them for that.vijaykarthik wrote:^^ all said and done, Pak only does the training / indoctrination etc. They simply don't have the money to fund large scale terrorist cells. Or so it seems. Funding comes from a different entity. US / KSA mostly. As long as the funding source is cut, that should be a good way to stop terror. And I am sure that US will have enough intelligence to know whats what. Its just that they wont act as it isn't in their best interests.
Either way, India can do nothing about the US and our fight is with Pakistan alone, no matter what the US does. if we can make Pakistan act against what the US perceives as its US interests it would be to our advantage. But even if we can't do that it is in our interests to punish Pakistan. if that is against US interests so much the better - it will help us learn to depend on us rather than think about what the US might or might not do. In the long term India and the US will be on a collision course over many issues. This is just one old, traditional issue.
Dr Majorly PhD @majorlyp
Follow
Daily concerns are mundane, like typical city in Pakistan. Lack of Sharia, prevalent jewish conspiracy, rising cost of firearms #TalibanCBM
My armed minder crading his RPG summed it best: "People want peace. It is the Politicians, Media & Army which wants status quo" #TalibanCBM
11:00 AM - 3 Oct 2013
vijaykarthik, shiv can give his answer. But, your thinking is a sane person's thinking. That is not how Pakistan functions because it is not only an abominable country but also an abnormal country. They simply reduce budgetary allocations for education and health and allocate that to Army and JuD. Non-state terror tanzeem JuD is supported through budgetary provisions just as state terror tanzeem Pakistani Army is.vijaykarthik wrote:Mm, how?
As was clear from the start, the principal Indian objective in inviting Nawaz to a clutch of leaders from South Asian countries was not to make a peace overture to Pakistan
Without the Pakistani prime minister, Modi’s show would have been a farce.
India’s intention in inviting Nawaz was certainly not to honour the Pakistani prime minister but to reduce him to the level of the other South Asian leaders.
Nawaz not only belittled himself by attending that meeting, he also conducted himself throughout his stay in Delhi in a manner which was unbecoming of the prime minister of Pakistan.
Z. A. Bhutto, in comparison, walked with grace and exuberance in Simla, even after the fall of Dhaka and the surrender of 90,000 Pakistani soldiers. He did not let his shoulder droop down![]()
The ‘Subcontinent’ – or even better the ‘Indian Subcontinent’ – is the term favoured by Delhi to describe what is generally known as South Asia. India tries to avoid the designation ‘South Asia’ because it signifies that India is just one of the several states which make up the region. Instead, India prefers – and Pakistan eschews – the term ‘Indian Subcontinent’, or its shorter form ‘the Subcontinent’, because it implies that all the countries of the region fall under Indian overlordship.
By going to Delhi to attend the inauguration of Modi and by the way he conducted himself during the visit, Nawaz consented to be belittled.
http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’
Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.
The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan
schinnas wrote:.. My guess is that the Talibs may not say it openly but they hate Chipanda as much as they hate Uncle.SSridhar wrote: The Chinese should leave now.
sunnyP wrote:http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’
Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.
The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan
sunnyP wrote:http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’
Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.
The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan
Yes, in a different avatar, when he was briefly unemployed gainfully - an interval between the Bhutto administration, the brief imprisonment, etc... and he had only his original connections to the ISI to fall back upon... It was in response to the Bangalore IISc attack if I remember right, when in an article he issued a not so subtle threat... I don't have the article but it has been linked on BRF a couple of times in recent years. I'm sure that other watchers of the Pakisatan remember it.KrishnaK wrote:Hussain Haqqani had issued threats against India ?
Karthik I put it to you that you simply have not studied enough about Pakistan. Pakistan is a huge country that is pretty much self sufficient in food and produces excess power as long as the power does not have to be distributed to the population. They have had enough power for power hungry Uranium centrifuges for decades.vijaykarthik wrote: Mm, how? At least I fail to see it. For a country to have spare cash to fund 'these' kinds of activities, they need to grow YoY, be innovative, have large productive advantages and have a comparative advantage in something. Factors of efficiencies that can be grown and improved over time ruthlessly. Objectively speaking, Pak does poorly on all the factors. Which shows in their economic indicators and their numbers till date -- they just don't cut it. If that were the case, how do you feel that they have spare cash and have opportunities to fund stupid ideals like terrorism and the like. Lets remember that its far cheaper and easier to help in terrorism as long as there is funding --> Pak does this really well. [They perhaps have a huge comparative advantage there, economically speaking?]. But absent funding, at least I feel that Pak cant keep at this business for long. At least mathematically, I see Pak as a basket case. There doesn't seem great evidence for funding this terrorist perennially all by themselves unless they actually plan to eat grass like their leader once famously mentioned to get the nuclear bomb.
How about stopping talks and peace initiatives? How about stopping the pretence that Pakistan is a normal state that can do normal business? the latter is a a point that hurts me deeply because we have (on BRF) been early seers of that but Indian governments have been extraordinarily stupid. Even Modi's BJP will get no points from me unless they are able to show that they recognize how abnormal a state Pakistan is. Let's see..KrishnaK wrote:India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.