Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 18 Jun 2014 18:58

Nandu wrote:
anupmisra wrote:He probably translated a phrase from erdoo into pinglish - "policewallon ka dallah".
So, a sort of middleman to collect bribes for the police?

Middleman for everything that the "respected" gentry don't want to sully their hands. Basically available for rent/hire. Sounds like the entire nation of bakistan, doesn't it?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 18 Jun 2014 19:04

A Little Brazil in Bakistan

Lyari buffs rooting for Brazil

It wasn’t Brazil versus Mexico in the 2014 FIFA World Cup on Tuesday night. The contest was between Lyari and Mexico ... well, that’s how the spirited youngsters of area, known as the hub of football in Pakistan, felt as they took out a rally from Cheel Chowk to Kalakot some four hours before the actual kick-off.

Lyari is known as a place of gang warfare. Look around you. Do you believe that? We are a fun-loving sporting people, who love football

Give these loyal nanha mujahids free visas and airline tickets for Brazil.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 18 Jun 2014 19:10

abhishek_sharma wrote:A conspiracy of denial: Mani Shankar Aiyar

A comment by Bjorn Biglund (passed on by an insider as it is being reviewed), not sure if it will be allowed:

The article may as well have been titled "A Singular Idiocy" - referring to his own formulation of "uninterrupted and uninterruptible" dialogue with Pakistan - which basically means that whatever Pakistan does (even if it nukes India) dialogue must continue... a policy formulation that can only come from an abiding contempt for the deaths of those killed in Pakistani terror attacks. I suspect he formulated that policy only because he wants to impress people with his "command" of the English language (who knows some gora may be watching and reading his words approvingly), which is why he keeps harping about his Cambridge links and, of course, is condescendingly dismissive of chaiwallahs. This is a man shorn of everything but a crass personal intellectual vanity, which is pitiably obvious to anyone observing him. Shame that he sits in the Rajya Sabha, but then again, his is the kind of party that would elevate a man like him to that position so he can sing their hosannas at every toe-curlingly embarrassing turn..

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Jun 2014 20:00

A_Gupta wrote:Has this anti-Jinnah tirade been seen here?
http://www.frequency.com/video/septembe ... -/5-341685

Can somebody get screen shots from this video
Very important video to understand what is in the mind of the large number of Baki people

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Jun 2014 20:44

Pakistans Polio problems continue to grow:

Fresh case confirmed: Polio count spikes at 83

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2014 21:00

svinayak wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Has this anti-Jinnah tirade been seen here?
http://www.frequency.com/video/septembe ... -/5-341685

Can somebody get screen shots from this video
Very important video to understand what is in the mind of the large number of Baki people

What screenshots Acharyaji? I got the whole video but saw nothing of note. I am not sure a lot of Bakis se the world this way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2014 21:08

JE Menon wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:A conspiracy of denial: Mani Shankar Aiyar
A comment by Bjorn Biglund (passed on by an insider as it is being reviewed), not sure if it will be allowed:

A much milder comment was not allowed - or maybe they will appear tomorrow because I can't believe that no one has commented yet.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 18 Jun 2014 23:33

Has he got it right or has he got it right - Posting in full

Pakistan Is Fighting Back Against Militants. Here’s Why It May Not Win.

After many rumors and false starts, and after years of requests from U.S. officials, Pakistan has finally launched a major military offensive in North Waziristan, ground zero for militancy in that country.

Extremist organizations use North Waziristan as a base for attacks on U.S. forces in Afghanistan and to mount assaults on targets in Pakistan. The remnants of al-Qaeda central, including perhaps supreme leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, have a presence there, as do Uzbek extremist groups, one of which claimed responsibility for the recent Karachi airport attack. Even Faisal Shahzad, the Pakistani-American who attempted to blow up Times Square in 2010, received training in North Waziristan. This tribal area is a magnet for militants local and foreign.

But while the airstrikes and ground efforts in North Waziristan have been needed, it’s not clear whether this effort can inflict a decisive blow against militancy in Pakistan. Here are four questions that underscore how conditions in Pakistan may be stacked against success:

1. Will there be a critical mass of militants left to fight?

The Pakistani government has been hinting at the likelihood of an operation since January. In the five months since then, Pakistani Taliban and other militants have had ample opportunity to escape to other tribal areas in Pakistan or even into Afghanistan.

2. Will international forces in Afghanistan be able to assist?

Pakistani officials have asked international forces in neighboring Afghanistan to help prevent militants from crossing the porous border into that country. But with the foreign presence in Afghanistan on track to diminish over the next few months, it’s not clear whether foreign troops will have the capacity to offer such assistance—and, if they do, they’ll need help from Afghan security forces, which have an uneasy relationship with the Pakistani security establishment.

3. Will this operation target militants across the board or only the Pakistani Taliban and its allies?

Pakistan has long distinguished between “good” and “bad” militants: It considers the Pakistani Taliban, which targets the Pakistani state, “bad”; the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani network, which strike Afghanistan and U.S. and Indian interests in that country, are “good.” All of these groups are based in North Waziristan, but if Islamabad targets only the “bad” militants, the operation’s success will be limited.

4. Will this operation include associated efforts outside Waziristan?

Militancy in Pakistan is no longer restricted to tribal areas. Thousands of militants have set up shop in cities. In the absence of stepped-up law enforcement efforts and other civilian-led security missions in urban areas, a Waziristan-only operation cannot root out militancy on a national level.

And that bodes poorly for the ultimate prospects of this much-needed offensive.

Michael Kugelman is senior associate for South Asia at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. He is on Twitter: @michaelkugelman.

Cheers

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 19 Jun 2014 00:15

arun wrote:Pakistans Polio problems continue to grow: Fresh case confirmed: Polio count spikes at 83

What the kufr world (especially the west with unlimited money) does not understand is that the momeens in bakiland have sacrificed their urge to travel abroad and stayed within the confines of the Land of the Green Sky. They took the fall and were thus exposed to the polio disease. But, by doing that, the good momeens prevented the spread of this dreaded disease to the outside world. Or in other words, paki momeens are the real heroes and therefore must be compensated.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 19 Jun 2014 01:15

There are two kinds of terrorists in Pakistan.

Those who harm other countries. Pakistan will never ever touch them. Small exceptions maybe those who harm Unkil and taller than ocean friends that too if they squeeze balls harder than usual. Apart from that, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Pakistan has ever acted against these groups or ever will. You can bet your house that they are in fact supporting those who attack India and Afghanistan. Plus they are sending a few to Syria as well.

Those who harm Pakistan: Perviously Pakistan didn't take them on because they were afraid that they would get their musharraf kicked. Now they are targeting a few. I believe partly because they have been coopted by afghan intelligence to attack terrorists of type 1 above. Anyone remember how Nasiruddin Haqqani, the haqqanis main fundraiser and laiason to ISI and Saudis got halaled in Isloo of all places?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... qqani.html
The bad Taliban halaled him. The good Taliban are inconvenienced due to this.

This operation is to protect and strengthen terrorists. Not eliminate them. So asking the question "did Pakistan finally decide to give up terrorism" is extremely stupid. Recent high profile terror attacks in Afghanistan was by LeT. Their ops are not succeeding and are getting leaked. And now Hafiz Saeed has spoken out supporting this so-called op against terrorists. Draw your own conclusions.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Jun 2014 01:16

What Pakistan needs is more Islam, not less.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Jun 2014 02:52

JE Menon wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:A conspiracy of denial: Mani Shankar Aiyar
A comment by Bjorn Biglund (passed on by an insider as it is being reviewed), not sure if it will be allowed:

... he formulated that policy only because he wants to impress people with his "command" of the English language (who knows some gora may be watching and reading his words approvingly), which is why he keeps harping about his Cambridge links and, of course, is condescendingly dismissive of chaiwallahs. This is a man shorn of everything but a crass personal intellectual vanity, which is pitiably obvious to anyone observing him. Shame that he sits in the Rajya Sabha, but then again, his is the kind of party that would elevate a man like him to that position so he can sing their hosannas at every toe-curlingly embarrassing turn..

The following run-on paragraph sized sentence makes little sense - Oxbridge or not - and to my non-english educated mind - grammatically not sound. But then what do I a country hick from the hinterlands of the belly of India know of brown sahib ways, hain? If any Oxbridge Dons are reading this, they might strip this oh so sophisticant (sophisticated sycophant) of his "BA --- (donkey years) --> MA" from Trinity College.

MSA wrote: I personally find such pessimism exaggerated, but in the face of this build-up of internal security and domestic political pressure, it is unsurprising that many segments of Pakistani opinion, military or civil, political or non-political, media-based or outside the media, are persuaded that a via media with India must be found in Pakistan’s own interest — even if there is far from unanimity on how this is to be found.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2014 03:20

I personally find such pessimism exaggerated, but in the face of this build-up of internal security and domestic political pressure, it is unsurprising that many segments of Pakistani opinion, military or civil, political or non-political, media-based or outside the media, are persuaded that a via media with India must be found in Pakistan’s own interest — even if there is far from unanimity on how this is to be found.

He could have said

I find it unsurprising that many segments of Pakistani opinion are persuaded a via media with India must be found in Paksitna's own interest. There is no unanimity on how this is to be found.

Wren & Martin used to have section on complex sentences which my teacher used to say is not for everyone.
This is an example of that. Its also an example of pedantic, verbose and redundant prose used to impress the reader of the author's mastery of English.

In US they say convey one thought per sentence. GOTUS has an initiative on "Simple English" with a pdf poster created by Census bureau!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Jun 2014 05:44

In an unsettled state: Khaled Ahmed

The outcome of the Modi-Nawaz meeting was predictably seen as disastrous by the swelling pro-army tide in Pakistan.

Nirantar · Post by **Nirantar** » 19 Jun 2014 06:30

To me the best scenario in the interest of India is PakiArmy and jehadists cancel out, weaken each other while pakjabis are slowly being stewed in indian cultural invasion through saas-bahu serials, bollywood and karva-chauth. Kaoboys to keep fanning the fire in FATA at the same time pakjabi economy totally in control of banias. Me think all is going per the plan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 06:31

JE Menon wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:A conspiracy of denial: Mani Shankar Aiyar
A comment by Bjorn Biglund (passed on by an insider as it is being reviewed), not sure if it will be allowed:

The article may as well have been titled "A Singular Idiocy" - referring to his own formulation of "uninterrupted and uninterruptible" dialogue with Pakistan - which basically means that whatever Pakistan does (even if it nukes India) dialogue must continue... a policy formulation that can only come from an abiding contempt for the deaths of those killed in Pakistani terror attacks. I suspect he formulated that policy only because he wants to impress people with his "command" of the English language (who knows some gora may be watching and reading his words approvingly), which is why he keeps harping about his Cambridge links and, of course, is condescendingly dismissive of chaiwallahs. This is a man shorn of everything but a crass personal intellectual vanity, which is pitiably obvious to anyone observing him. Shame that he sits in the Rajya Sabha, but then again, his is the kind of party that would elevate a man like him to that position so he can sing their hosannas at every toe-curlingly embarrassing turn..

Since no comments have appeared at all - I have now sent them this comment

Hey you guys at Express. Have you taken a contract from that moron Mani Shankar Aiyer that you will not publish comments critical of this stupid article? Shameful - your editorial board is as bad as MSA. Hack thoo to you

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 06:34

Nirantar wrote:To me the best scenario in the interest of India is PakiArmy and jehadists cancel out, weaken each other while pakjabis are slowly being stewed in indian cultural invasion through saas-bahu serials, bollywood and karva-chauth. IB/RAW to keep fanning the fire in FATA at the same time pakjabi economy totally in control of banias. Me think all is going per the plan.

I believe it is dangerous to give Pakjabis any kind of rope to hold on to. They need to suffer and repent and eventually become moderate in a manner that simply keeps them grateful that they are not getting screwed by India. Positive friendship is not something they deserve. They are the type who will pretend to love saas bahu serials to build trust only to tell you that kafir stuff is stupid and ugly.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 06:41

Peregrine wrote:Has he got it right or has he got it right - Posting in full

Pakistan Is Fighting Back Against Militants. Here’s Why It May Not Win.

After many rumors and false starts, and after years of requests from U.S. officials, Pakistan has finally launched a major military offensive in North Waziristan, ground zero for militancy in that country.

As per last reports I read - a ground offensive has not yet started. Only PAF attacks.

Apart from the fact that it gives time for the Talibunnies to escape I am speculating that the PAF finds it easier to atack the Talian because it is not directly connected on the ground and contac is ntermitted and they can deliberately miss targets if need be.

Morale and loyalties in the Pakistan army may not allow an offensive.

Mani Shankar Aidiot's opinion that Pakistanis need not be pessimistic is wrong. The Pakistan army will not launch a serious ground offensive that actually clears Waziristan. Nothing new has happened this time that gives them any extra resolve.

After all the Taliban are not asking for the earth, they are only asking for a sliver of moon and sharia which the Pakis should not have any objection to accepting. Pakistan is an Islamic country. They should have sharia.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 19 Jun 2014 06:47

shiv wrote:There are two separate things that you are talking about:
1. Getting them to do our bidding - and you disagree that my suggestion will get them to do our bidding. Fair enough - in fact my suggestions are aimed mainly at ratcheting up discomfort and hopefully causing pain. Not at "getting them to do our bidding"

agreed

2. You ask: "How to wean them away from their habitual stupidity?" How about not rewarding them for it? Not that this will "wean them away" - but at least it might possibly force a change in tactic if they are as rational as you feel they might be. How about not reacting to terror with a handshake?

Not reacting to terror with a handshake is a very general statement. What level of terror ? A duel on the LoC or bombay ? Other than bombay itself, India hasn't really let the pakis walk away without pain for any of the big incidents.

If the US is oh so clever and has "woken up" to the fact that Pakistan is not a "normal state" how come this "wide awake" USA is still paying Pakistan in money and arms to be used against India in exchange for things that they are not getting?
The answer to this question is moot as far as India is concerned. We have to handle Pakistan no matter how clever or how stupid the US is. The US cannot be counted on our side and has to be eliminated from our calculus except in terms of how much they pay off Pakistan - out of cleverness or stupidity.

It is our duty to make sure the aam paki janta are on our payroll. That's the *only* permanent solution. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything we do should be towards that end without having to incur any bombay/kargil level outrages. As far as the US, their tune will change once they're out of afghanistan. That should make them more resilient to paki blackmail.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 07:09

KrishnaK wrote: Not reacting to terror with a handshake is a very general statement. What level of terror ? A duel on the LoC or bombay ? Other than bombay itself, India hasn't really let the pakis walk away without pain for any of the big incidents.
It is our duty to make sure the aam paki janta are on our payroll. That's the *only* permanent solution.

I disagree on both counts - so I think there is a long distance between your viewpoint and mine.

I don't believe India has punished Pakistan enough even for small incidents. We need a two week artillery barrage in response to "small border incidents" in my view. What we actually do is a DGMO meeting and a handshake. And we have had scores of border incidents, including beheadings and IEDs

i do not believe we should be putting Pakis on our payroll - in fact that suggestion horrifies me and makes me laugh because it is the same naive idea that made the US think that the Pakis will do the US's bidding for money. In fact Pakis took the money and did what they wanted. The US is leaving Afghanistan with its work half done, the Pakis hostlle, the Taliban winning and the Paki army much richer and better armed - and the Pakis are on the US's payroll. They are busy showing America the middle finger and the US does not know which way to turn - so they are turning tail. This is another idea that asks India to emulate the US. Wow! It is a profound misreading of Pakistan to imagine that they will be "on our payroll" and do our bidding in good faith.

Not reacting to border incidents strongly and furthermore imagining that the problem can be mitigated by paying Pakistan money are both hallmarks of an under-informed and ignorant Indian leadership and people and an inability to understand Pakistan. The fact that the US has already been through a failed path of mollycoddling Pakistan should be an eye opener for Indians.

No. I believe you are entitled to your views - but I don't think India's responses have been hard enough and I do not think that "putting Pakis on our payroll" is an Indian duty.

jash_p · Post by **jash_p** » 19 Jun 2014 07:53

J E Menon

What Pakistan needs is more Islam, not less.

What I observed that For Pakis to survive they should be practicing either be purest of pure of Islam with all goodies like follow to Koran and hadith for every problems, sharia law, Islamic punishment, women are half citizen etc. or be total kuffar and Islam should be haram in land of pure. But hay Pakistan ka mutlab kian ??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 08:00

Pure Islam is the only choice for Pakistan. There is no such things as dilute Islam or half Islam. It is another matter that this pure Islam will continue Pakistan on the warpath with its neighbours, but that would have been a problem only if the last 60 years had been totally peaceful. Dilute Islam or pure Islam, Pakistan is at war with everyone. But for Pakistan to survive as a state created for Muslims - the Muslims of Pakistan cannot be fake Muslims. They must be pure to their faith. That means sharia, and elimination of Ahmedis, shias and other pretenders who damage the faith.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Jun 2014 08:01

I think it is a disgrace and affront to Pakistani Honor, Dignity and Sovereignty that these ISIS or ISIL twerps claim to be more Purely Islamic than the ppl of the Land of The Pure. Haraam! Haraam! Pakistan needs the ISIS. Imagine them swarming through LaHore and IslamaGood, dealing appropriately with the dog-luvin' pig-eating, alcohol-swilling apostates who call themselves Generals and National Leaders. And all those haraam apostate wimmens showing their naked ankles and committing blasphemy by STUDYING in elementary school and even University!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 08:02

UlanBatori wrote:I think it is a disgrace and affront to Pakistani Honor, Dignity and Sovereignty that these ISIS or ISIL twerps claim to be more Purely Islamic than the ppl of the Land of The Pure. Haraam! Haraam! Pakistan needs the ISIS. Imagine them swarming through LaHore and IslamaGood, dealing appropriately with the dog-luvin' pig-eating, alcohol-swilling apostates who call themselves Generals and National Leaders. And all those haraam apostate wimmens showing their naked ankles and committing blasphemy by STUDYING in elementary school and even University!

I think we could post a few links to photos of those those skin exposing women and beardless Pakistanis so we know who is real and who is fake.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 19 Jun 2014 08:16

shiv wrote:Pure Islam is the only choice for Pakistan. There is no such things as dilute Islam or half Islam. It is another matter that this pure Islam will continue Pakistan on the warpath with its neighbours, but that would have been a problem only if the last 60 years had been totally peaceful. Dilute Islam or pure Islam, Pakistan is at war with everyone. But for Pakistan to survive as a state created for Muslims - the Muslims of Pakistan cannot be fake Muslims. They must be pure to their faith. That means sharia, and elimination of Ahmedis, shias and other pretenders who damage the faith.

That will also prove that Islam is not a unifier as some of its followers believe it will accelerate disintegration of Pakistan into 4 different countries. Diversity is a fundamental attribute of creation. Only the cultures and countries that respect and honor diversity and let diversity flourish will stay united. Countries that equate unity with uniformity and demand conformance to a single point of view WILL disintegrate. Godspeed to it and let us bury this dumb two nation theory and of Islam as a unifier once and for all.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 08:19

schinnas wrote:
That will also prove that Islam is not a unifier as some of its followers believe it will accelerate disintegration of Pakistan into 4 different countries. Diversity is a fundamental attribute of creation. Only the cultures and countries that respect and honor diversity and let diversity flourish will stay united. Countries that equate unity with uniformity and demand conformance to a single point of view WILL disintegrate. Godspeed to it and let us bury this dumb two nation theory and of Islam as a unifier once and for all.

You need to visit the benis thread and receive 72 stribes and have your goats confiscated for this blasphemous post. But this is OT.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jun 2014 08:33

KrishnaK wrote:It is our duty to make sure the aam paki janta are on our payroll. That's the *only* permanent solution. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything we do should be towards that end without having to incur any Bombay/Kargil level outrages.

KrishnaK, let me interject. It should *not* even be our desire to do so, leave alone it being a duty. I can think of two reasons. One is that the Pakistani masses are totally brainwashed as to who their only mortal enemy is. It is simply not only India, but Kafir Hindu India at that. Even those Pakistanis who overwhelm Indian visitors with their hospitality have that thought imprinted in their DNA. This will not change for generations to come because even if Pakistan launches a programme to re-write its history and paint India in the right colour, this will take decades to overcome deeply entrenched opinion. Pakistan is not even attempting to do so. Two, Pakistani masses are themselves converting to, or being converted to, more literalist, extremist, medieval Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi schools of Islamist thought. This is going on on a large scale especially in the last few years. Though Deoband itself exists in India, we still do not want to liaise with such extremists on the other side of the border, do we? In fact, we should avoid aam Pakistani janatha as plague and curtail our interaction with them.

As far as the US, their tune will change once they're out of Afghanistan. That should make them more resilient to paki blackmail.

The US can be expected to sing a different tune after they leave Afghanistan completely. That would be in c. 2017, not end of this year. Past history points to such a change in the American tune. But, again for how long would the Americans sing that tune is a moot question. Past history again shows that it might not be for very long. Either a new situation would develop or be manufactured to enter into a wedlock with Pakistan all over again. The Pakistani blackmail would never cease either during marriage or after divorce because Pakistan would not mind embarrassing the US for it itself has nothing to lose anyway. Pakistan simply knows too much about the US.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 19 Jun 2014 08:55

SSridhar wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:It is our duty to make sure the aam paki janta are on our payroll. That's the *only* permanent solution. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everything we do should be towards that end without having to incur any Bombay/Kargil level outrages.
KrishnaK, let me interject. It should *not* even be our desire to do so, leave alone it being a duty. I can think of two reasons. One is that the Pakistani masses are totally brainwashed as to who their only mortal enemy is. It is simply not only India, but Kafir Hindu India at that. Even those Pakistanis who overwhelm Indian visitors with their hospitality have that thought imprinted in their DNA. This will not change for generations to come because even if Pakistan launches a programme to re-write its history and paint India in the right colour, this will take decades to overcome deeply entrenched opinion. Pakistan is not even attempting to do so. Two, Pakistani masses are themselves converting to, or being converted to, more literalist, extremist, medieval Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi schools of Islamist thought. This is going on on a large scale especially in the last few years. Though Deoband itself exists in India, we still do not want to liaise with such extremists on the other side of the border, do we? In fact, we should avoid aam Pakistani janatha as plague and curtail our interaction with them.

How can it be not our duty ? How exactly can India's neighbourhood be kept secure ? With them having acquired nukes our ability to punish them has also gone down substantially. This idea that we can build some fence and then be secure is kinda bullshit. There is no other option. A way must be found. Even the mighty Soviet Union fell. Ideology can only go so far. Pakistan is no SU, it's far easier to infiltrate. Not just pakistan, all of our neighbours must be tied tightly into the Indian market.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 09:08

Until about a year ago I used to complain on BRF that the US should somehow be made to stop arming Pakistan. I now realize two things

1. India's responses to Pakistan should not take the US into account at all except to calculate where US actions could harm India - in terms of what they give Pakistan as hardware and intelligence information. The US is irrelevant apart from these two areas. If the US helps India with Intel info - we accept with thanks and never forget that the US ignored almost all the accurate intel info we gave them about Pakistan - including nukes and Osama's whereabouts. At best the US is a country that is worthless in dealing with Pakistan. At worst it is a hindrance.

2. The US is also dependent on Pakistan and they are quite helpless. They have invested too much in Pakistan to back out. They are not simply caught feeding a Pakistani dollar eating black hole. The US can print enough dollars for that, but the US is caught politically because no US government can explain how Pakistan has not given the US all that the US expected from paying them off. No US leader can explain to US citizens that their Pakistan policy has been, on balance, a failure and how they have promised to keep funding Pakistan despite that failure. US internal security is tighter than it ever was and is not set to get any lighter. And Pakistan is nowhere near under US control.

Depending on the US to do something useful (to India) about Pakistan or emulating the US in any way with regard to how Pakistan should be handled are ideas that will get us exactly nowhere. In or out of the subcontinent, we need to make the US's actions irrelevant to our handling of Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 09:12

KrishnaK wrote: How can it be not our duty ? How exactly can India's neighbourhood be kept secure ? With them having acquired nukes our ability to punish them has also gone down substantially. This idea that we can build some fence and then be secure is kinda bullshit. There is no other option. A way must be found. Even the mighty Soviet Union fell. Ideology can only go so far. Pakistan is no SU, it's far easier to infiltrate. Not just pakistan, all of our neighbours must be tied tightly into the Indian market.

It is not our duty to pay Pakistan as you suggested. That is worse than "kinda bullshit". There are many options, including nuclear war, but I cannot see how paying Pakistanis will prevent terrorism or war or even nuclear war.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 09:26

KrishnaK wrote:Even the mighty Soviet Union fell. Ideology can only go so far.

The USSR was a declared enemy of the US. The US did not put the USSR on its payroll. It fought propaganda and proxy wars and even hounded out communists from the US so the ideology could not take root.

How do these facts gel with your idea that we should pay Pakistanis and say that using a fence to keep them and their ideology out is wrong? I am sure we could handle Pakistanis better if we treated them like the US treated the USSR. But you are asking that India should treat Pakistan like the US does - by mollycoddling. Mollycoddling did not defeat the USSR.

I believe you are confusing the way the US handled the USSR with the way the US handles Pakistan. The former was a success. The latter is a pathetic failure.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 19 Jun 2014 09:37

The Pakistani Army continues to perform magnificently in Operation Zarb -e- Kazb. In a single day elite elements of its 111 Brigade assaulted, occupied and held the capital, Islamabad. With commendable foresight, critical organs of the opposition such as Geo News had been taken out in advance.

Lahore and Peshawar are expected to capitulate soon. Subsequently, PA 's strategists foresee an epic March To The Sea, to conquer Karachi. With all the firepower at their disposal, occupying Gwadar is then expected to be a matter of days.

If needed, fresh recruits to PA are currently being sought in North Waziristan Agency. The response has been overwhelming.

As always, Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jun 2014 09:41

Paki dont fear More Islam , Paki fear More islam with more Musalmans. Dilemma is they cant have more Islam if they deny More Musalmans to bring additional , more Islam.So decision must be enforced by outsiders.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jun 2014 09:48

Track Too Or Thirkee Thoo
Relations with India — the next five years

The second and most extreme scenario is a conflict brewing in the subcontinent due to some crisis in India. The fact that leaders of militant outfits are roaming freely and setting foreign policy agenda for the government does not encourage many. Modi’s government walks a tight rope where it ought to appreciate the need to focus on improving communal relations in the country which militant non-state actors could manipulate to their advantage. All it needs is a few sparks for someone to light a fire out of it. An additional factor this time is that with the urge to save his reputation as the tough man of politics, Modi may not even give himself time to look at veracity of claims presented to him, in case something untoward happens. Thus, a major fire breaking out between the two neighbours is a scenario which is on people’s minds and is a worrying possibility.
A friend recently asked me about how I saw India-Pakistan relations in the coming years. The more I thought about it, the only thing I wished for was for the relations to get frozen in time so when we wake up after a few years, we may be able to pick up the threads again and not have destroyed each other by design or default. We may have lost the key to find stable peace. All we have are numerous negotiating tracks filled up with people with little ability to think long term.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 09:53

Baikul wrote:The Pakistani Army continues to perform magnificently in Operation Zarb -e- Kazb. In a single day elite elements of its 111 Brigade assaulted, occupied and held the capital, Islamabad. With commendable foresight, critical organs of the opposition such as Geo News had been taken out in advance.

Lahore and Peshawar are expected to capitulate soon. Subsequently, PA 's strategists foresee an epic March To The Sea, to conquer Karachi. With all the firepower at their disposal, occupying Gwadar is then expected to be a matter of days.

If needed, fresh recruits to PA are currently being sought in North Waziristan Agency. The response has been overwhelming.

As always, Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah.

+1

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Jun 2014 10:01

>>I believe it is dangerous to give Pakjabis any kind of rope to hold on to.

Correct. On the contrary to giving any sort of rope, what we must do is to actively encourage them to "hold fast to the rope of allah" at any cost and that is best done by promoting Indianisatiom, Westernisation and social Facebook/whatsapp/viber/skypisation.... That will force them to hold the rope of allah ever tighter in anger, confusion and even rage and spite - all positive emotions for Pakistani society.

We may henceforth regard this as the "Donkey Trap" since it applies to the whole society and it's identity, as opposed to the Monkey Trap where the fruit in the jar is Kashmir.

Just a thaat

Added later: the post above mine came in an amazingly timely fashion....

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Jun 2014 10:17

KrishnaK wrote:With them having acquired nukes our ability to punish them has also gone down substantially. This idea that we can build some fence and then be secure is kinda bullshit. There is no other option.

Talking about BS, your argument is that India builds a fence and immediately paki jarnails enter launch codes and coordinates into their ghoris and gazhnis?

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 19 Jun 2014 10:36

What is the origin of the "ram holding serpent" in the ISI logo above?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jun 2014 10:37

Let them figure out for themselves that rope they are holding tight is the tail of Cobra while Mamba is smiling ,sliding slowly toward them and light they are seeing at the end of Tunnel is TTP Train.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jun 2014 10:49

KrishnaK wrote:How can it be not our duty ? How exactly can India's neighbourhood be kept secure ? With them having acquired nukes our ability to punish them has also gone down substantially. This idea that we can build some fence and then be secure is kinda bullshit. There is no other option. A way must be found.

KrishnaK, take a deep breath. I am not bull$hitting. I agree with your macro view that member nations of the Indian subcontinent must be tied into the Indian economy. In fact, that is *one of the the levers* we have to use with Pakistan as well. But, IMHO, it cannot come about by simply appeasing Pakistan, by allowing freer contacts, by unilateral Indian decisions of friendship or concessions, by letting it go unpunished for its crimes against us etc. Those are self-defeating and history repeatedly shows they are doomed to failure. There is no one silver bullet to tame Pakistan and turn it into a normal nation state. Pakistan itself does not wish to be so. Powerful countries have conspired to make it remain abnormal and abominable. However, Pakistan cannot arrest its unending slide without help from India. That is the bottom line. Neither China nor US can do that for it. Nor, the friends from the Desert. If that has to happen, Pakistan must be yearning for that and also earn the Indian hand. Let us tighten the screw ever more tightly on Pakistan. The US and PRC can keep Pakistan's jaws bobbing just above the water and if that is what Pakistan wants then so be it. In the meanwhile, let us consolidate our position with Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Oman, Iran and Afghanistan.

Even the mighty Soviet Union fell. Ideology can only go so far. .

Exactly. Our efforts must be to hasten the fall of Pakistan, as Gen. Schwarzkof said in another context. But, that is not going to be achieved through enrolling the Pakistani Abduls on our payroll because such attempts have come a cropper in situations that were more conducive than they are now or will ever be in future.