Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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srai
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 20 Jun 2014 11:08

srai wrote:
partha wrote:


Great video! This is the first video I have seen that shows complete Akash interception from launch to target destruction all caught in one continuos action shot.


Re-watching the video in pauses, here is what happens:
  1. Launch @ 2 sec mark
  2. Booster burn-out and switch to Ramjet @ 6 sec mark
  3. Warhead explosion @ 8 sec mark (resulting bang and lingering smoke cloud is quite massive)

There is something that flies across screen around 6 sec mark. Don't know what that is (bird? or drone target?).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2014 12:26

vic wrote:Please use common sense, if Akash can fly at 30m then 60kg warhead will cover anything between 0-30m if at all required.


True and would depend on the distance between proximity fuse and the target also the target should be in LOS of Rajendra.

60 kg warhead is a big enough to cause good damage to any target within a radius of 20-30 m

I am quite impressed with Akash Speed when Ramjet take over and its smokeless too quite sure it does more than Mach 3.

Add a fat booster and some kind of seeker IIR or RF or even a 2 channel IR seeker with a optimised trajectory this thing can do easily 50-60 km , Also note it can fly at 20 km altitude for a Ramjet missile its good and options available to loft the missile high up to 18-20 km in a parabolic trajectory trading PE to KE at the end of its burn or for that matter even while coasting.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2014 12:37

the 40kg warhead of a 155mm HE shell is said to have kill radius of 50m.
the 60kg akash warhead is probably designed to explode as a sphere or cone of fragments to ensure even a near miss or multiple close flying targets like planes are damaged.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20317 » 20 Jun 2014 13:50

If its a different sort of warhead (directional or even the older continuous rods) then the kill radius should increase substantially above the the standard 155 mm benchmark you are comparing with. This while the fuze is suggested to be set at 30 mtrs. Besides at these lower ranges the accuracy is going to go up too. So my hunch is that it is a simpler HE warhead with a simple spherical explosion.

All suggestions only but seems like there is a lot of scope for growth with Akash system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vic » 20 Jun 2014 15:54

The average speed of normal missile is around Mach 1.5 but Ramjet Akash has average speed of around Mach 2.5 which means its "effective" combat range is larger because it would not let the target get away. But DRDO guys are idiots and foreign maal is super best.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 20 Jun 2014 16:33

I think we should convert outgoing Mig-21 Bisons/Mig-23s & Mig-27s into target drones. I think such a program wouldn't require a lot of effort and can be used to prove our A2A, SAM missiles against realistic targets, speeds and maneuvering envelopes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vic » 20 Jun 2014 17:40

In missiles high explosive content along with metal balls increase the kill radius compared to 155mm shell which has low explosive filler and no balls (pun unintended) But DRDO chaps are fools only.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2014 17:58

vic wrote:The average speed of normal missile is around Mach 1.5 but Ramjet Akash has average speed of around Mach 2.5 which means its "effective" combat range is larger because it would not let the target get away. But DRDO guys are idiots and foreign maal is super best.


Not Effective Range but Effective End Game Energy to Engage the target , the range will be the same 28km but it will be powered flight all the way.

Its surprising though DRDO has not worked on Akash-2 of range ~ 50 km , Somewhere around 1998-99 Janes carried an interview of the then SA APJ Kalam where he disclosed of adding booster and optimising ramjet for doubling the range , Its been more than 15 years and there is no Akash-2/mk2 development.

Had they carried on developing Akash we would probably never had to venture into Barak-8/MRSAM

The current version of Akash though is better then the 1998 version with range increased from 25 km to 28 km and altitude from 15 km to 20 km

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 20 Jun 2014 18:14

leaving aside akash, there seems to have been no funds/attempt to evolve a family of drones and decoys from the initial lakshya design which more or less remains the same today as in the HAL museum. no supersonic drone, no SEAD tickler air launched decoy, no subsonic drone of smaller form factor...

successful product development cos always use the initial product as a launchpad for family of products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-160_MALD

this the kind of thing we need to tickle and expend the large PLA IADS
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby gashish » 20 Jun 2014 18:50

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/06/3rd-test-of-indias-astra-bvraam-from-su.html?m=1

DRDO statement: ASTRA BVR-Air-to-Air Missiles was tested successfully from Su-30MKI by the Indian Air Force from a naval range off Goa. The launch conducted on 20th Jun 2014 from over 6 km altitude was a control and guidance flight which successfully demonstrated interception of an electronically simulated target at long range. Both, tests, today's test and earlier launch on 09th June 2014 conducted to demonstrate the aerodynamic characteristics of the missile, have demonstrated the repeatability, robustness and endurance capability of Astra BVR-AAM as a weapon system.



Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nikhil_p » 20 Jun 2014 19:00

Today morning met paanwallah bhaiyyah ji for my daily meetha pan fix...here is the discussion.

Naya paan ka pura family tayyar ho raha hai. Katha, Paan, Supari sabhi desi hai. Kadak Maal hai. Shivji ka astra ek baar fir se garjega par astra ka naam alag hoga. Sudarshan chakra ki tarah gala dhoondh ke kattne wala yantra bhi tayyar ho raha hai.

Acche din aane wale hai!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 20 Jun 2014 20:06

^^^^^ Awwwesome!!! Grateful for the news.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sanjay » 20 Jun 2014 20:20

nikhil - any translation ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 20 Jun 2014 20:31

nikhil_p wrote:Today morning met paanwallah bhaiyyah ji for my daily meetha pan fix...here is the discussion.

Naya paan ka pura family tayyar ho raha hai. Katha, Paan, Supari sabhi desi hai. Kadak Maal hai. Shivji ka astra ek baar fir se garjega par astra ka naam alag hoga. Sudarshan chakra ki tarah gala dhoondh ke kattne wala yantra bhi tayyar ho raha hai.

Acche din aane wale hai!


is khabar ke liye dhanywaad. Kripya thoda aur vistaar se bataane ki kripa karenge !! jigyasa badh gayi hai is khabar se :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 20 Jun 2014 20:34

nikhil_p wrote:Today morning met paanwallah bhaiyyah ji for my daily meetha pan fix...here is the discussion.

Naya paan ka pura family tayyar ho raha hai. Katha, Paan, Supari sabhi desi hai. Kadak Maal hai. Shivji ka astra ek baar fir se garjega par astra ka naam alag hoga. Sudarshan chakra ki tarah gala dhoondh ke kattne wala yantra bhi tayyar ho raha hai.

Acche din aane wale hai!


seeker dev., trishul reloaded and ARM,WVR,AGM, etc in my wild guess. :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 20 Jun 2014 20:47

it could be the indianized barak 8 systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby saje » 20 Jun 2014 20:49

The Akaash's performance is commendable from my POV more because of the drone they used it against -- I looked up some videos of the Banshee drone on You Tube and this is no ordinary drone. So kudos to DRDO for using such a drone to exhibit Akaash's flight. I suspect maybe the users demanded this particular drone? Inspite of the on going development on this missile, I feel that Akaash is the Surface to Air equivalent of Prithvi in the category of Surface to Surface. Just like the Prithvi was a start which led to better things like the Brahmos, Sagarika/Prahaar, stubbier & shorter Agnis, my guess is that the Akaash will lead to better SA missiles (maybe SR-SAM/LR-SAM and more) in future (10-12 years). So my guess is that there might not be any further versions beyond mod-2 or at the most a mod-3 of the Akaash.

Also, great idea of using older jet airframes in drone form for testing such missiles -- the Mig-21FL (recently retired) comes to mind as a possible candidate, wonder how many Mig-21FL airframes we had left at the last count. Regarding the Astra, does anyone know why the Soviets used to build two guidance versions (IR & RADAR) of the same air-to-air missile back in the good old days? And why they seem to have stopped that practice now?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 20 Jun 2014 21:01

Austin wrote:
vic wrote:The average speed of normal missile is around Mach 1.5 but Ramjet Akash has average speed of around Mach 2.5 which means its "effective" combat range is larger because it would not let the target get away. But DRDO guys are idiots and foreign maal is super best.


Not Effective Range but Effective End Game Energy to Engage the target , the range will be the same 28km but it will be powered flight all the way.

Its surprising though DRDO has not worked on Akash-2 of range ~ 50 km , Somewhere around 1998-99 Janes carried an interview of the then SA APJ Kalam where he disclosed of adding booster and optimising ramjet for doubling the range , Its been more than 15 years and there is no Akash-2/mk2 development.

Had they carried on developing Akash we would probably never had to venture into Barak-8/MRSAM

The current version of Akash though is better then the 1998 version with range increased from 25 km to 28 km and altitude from 15 km to 20 km


Being a command-guided missile, increasing range will yield diminishing returns due to radar horizon and also response time. They need to put in atleast a passive IIR seeker to take over in case the radar lock is broken by the target diving to low altitude.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 20 Jun 2014 21:03

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21070

How come no one is discussing Mr Routs news that all akash tests have failed including the one where the banshee drone failed to take off. :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 20 Jun 2014 21:08

srin wrote:Being a command-guided missile, increasing range will yield diminishing returns due to radar horizon and also response time. They need to put in atleast a passive IIR seeker to take over in case the radar lock is broken by the target diving to low altitude.


Thats what I stated few post above viewtopic.php?p=1675963#p1675963

Add a fat booster and some kind of seeker IIR or RF or even a 2 channel IR seeker with a optimised trajectory this thing can do easily 50-60 km , Also note it can fly at 20 km altitude for a Ramjet missile its good and options available to loft the missile high up to 18-20 km in a parabolic trajectory trading PE to KE at the end of its burn or for that matter even while coasting.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2014 07:04

Its a declared military n facility. Nothing covert about it. They could stick a psu type monthly production signboard at the front gate and nothing is the problem.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Avarachan » 21 Jun 2014 07:15

Karan M wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/akash-ready-for-induction-into-army-drdo/article6126891.ece

Guys this is *big* news. Basically, DRDO/LRDE have worked out the multipath reflection issue which was what scuppered Trishul-Naval version as well. It was the last "holdout" of the Trishul program, in that while the IA/IAF version were deemed ok, the Naval one kept running into this issue & was ultimately dropped in favor of Barak-1
Expect the learnings to be leveraged for the SRSAM & other programs.


Indeed it is. I'm not an expert on these matters, but it seems that the Akash can now be used in a coastal defense role. I expect orders for the Akash to increase significantly.

In terms of the system's potential, I've heard that the fire-control radar of the Akash system is world-class. There is room for improvement with the missile. It seems that the missile itself is currently comparable to the Russian Buk-M1 (SA-11). The Buk-M2 (SA-17) has significantly improved performance (50 km vs. 35 km).

Akash's potential is remarkable ... Its technology can produce spin-off's related to long-range air-to-air (similar to the Russian K-100), naval variants (similar to the Russian SA-N-12), etc. Congrats to the DRDO, the Indian military, the associated PSU's, the Ministry of Defense, and everyone else involved! Dr. Kalam's dreams are coming true. :D
Last edited by Avarachan on 21 Jun 2014 09:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2014 09:24

imo the Astra offers some potential as a high speed anti radiation missile something we currently lack except the limited nos of KH31P.
the seeker would ofcourse need a change and the launch ac needs special RF sensors and direction finders.
imo its doable to convert some of the Flankers and Tejas into SEAD models and should be done.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Avarachan » 21 Jun 2014 09:34

Yes, I've heard that the Europeans want to do something similar with the Meteor.

The Jags are being re-configured for SEAD.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/ ... 34x480.jpg
Image


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_22539 » 21 Jun 2014 09:38

Bheeshma wrote:http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21070

How come no one is discussing Mr Routs news that all akash tests have failed including the one where the banshee drone failed to take off. :rotfl: :rotfl:


Filthy vermin like this presstitute should face severe punishments for spreading such misinformation and subverting/sabotaging indigenous defense efforts.

Nothing less than the death penalty must be given for such traitorous activities.

I hope the new govt really shows these scum their place.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 21 Jun 2014 10:17

Singha wrote:leaving aside akash, there seems to have been no funds/attempt to evolve a family of drones and decoys from the initial lakshya design which more or less remains the same today as in the HAL museum. no supersonic drone, no SEAD tickler air launched decoy, no subsonic drone of smaller form factor...

successful product development cos always use the initial product as a launchpad for family of products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-160_MALD

this the kind of thing we need to tickle and expend the large PLA IADS
Image




We need to develop a mass launched decoy such as this as you have rightly put and configure our cargo aircraft with a MCALS (for a C-130) like system to launch these. Such a system/concept is not a be all end all way of defeating an IAD but it is one very important element.

The MALD Cargo Air Launched System, or MCALS, houses up to eight MALDs in a cage-like launcher. Loaded on a standard cargo pallet, the launch system is placed on a transport aircraft, and rapidly ejects MALD drone decoys at a predetermined altitude.

"MCALS opens the door for the nontraditional use of a high-capacity aircraft to deliver hundreds of MALDs during a single combat sortie," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon’s vice president of air warfare systems.


Image



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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2014 16:25

pretty amazing brar_w and who's to say the same system cannot be used to launch a pile of SDB3 and their equivalents in a bombcat MC130J?
as in flatten the airbase/compound defences with stealthy long range munitions from the same SF delivery formation a few minutes before the paras touchdown :)

mid east / african socom units could put this to good use...cheap bomber support without expensive to order B52 that probably need a week of paper trail with usaf to even consider


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 21 Jun 2014 18:39

NPAs like to take overt indian military programs and use 'covert' and 'contravention of treaties' to try and pass that off as Cheen->Noko type activity.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 21 Jun 2014 18:46

The higher amount of Uranium Enrichment and new facility would be an indication of higher amount of Uranium fuel needed for ATV reactors and the numbers to be built in the future. Else India has little need for enriched Uranium as its Nukes uses Pu.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 21 Jun 2014 19:02

Austin wrote:The higher amount of Uranium Enrichment and new facility would be an indication of higher amount of Uranium fuel needed for ATV reactors and the numbers to be built in the future. Else India has little need for enriched Uranium as its Nukes uses Pu.


This is a misconception that India only uses Pu.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Picklu » 21 Jun 2014 23:24

nash wrote:
nikhil_p wrote:Today morning met paanwallah bhaiyyah ji for my daily meetha pan fix...here is the discussion.

Naya paan ka pura family tayyar ho raha hai. Katha, Paan, Supari sabhi desi hai. Kadak Maal hai. Shivji ka astra ek baar fir se garjega par astra ka naam alag hoga. Sudarshan chakra ki tarah gala dhoondh ke kattne wala yantra bhi tayyar ho raha hai.

Acche din aane wale hai!


seeker dev., trishul reloaded and ARM,WVR,AGM, etc in my wild guess. :D


Since Astra is getting ready (ground launch successful multiple times, separation tested and recently tested control components from Su launch against an e-target), trishul reload is just a matter of time. World over the trend is to use the A2A (or a very close cousin version of that) in SHORAD mode for all such new developments. We have already developed lot of components for Akash and again their close cousin versions can be used for rapid development of other building blocks for the SHORAD. In fact, the best way would be to enhance them so that the same equipment/building block can be dual used simultaneously.

With Nag, the IIR seeker is also coming good and again a bunch of close cousins can be used for multiple applications.

It is all about attaining threshold maturity for a generation of weapon system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vsunder » 22 Jun 2014 01:47

Is there any news of the status of Nag( with improved seeker) and Namica? Also what is the status of HELINA? Are the Rudras that were handed over to the Army and those whose pictures are seen in the LCH thread, stacked together, equipped with HELINA? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Avarachan » 22 Jun 2014 04:40

Picklu wrote:
Since Astra is getting ready (ground launch successful multiple times, separation tested and recently tested control components from Su launch against an e-target), trishul reload is just a matter of time. World over the trend is to use the A2A (or a very close cousin version of that) in SHORAD mode for all such new developments. We have already developed lot of components for Akash and again their close cousin versions can be used for rapid development of other building blocks for the SHORAD. In fact, the best way would be to enhance them so that the same equipment/building block can be dual used simultaneously.


I've heard that the Indo-French Maitri will be used both as an SR-SAM and a WVR air-to-air missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 22 Jun 2014 13:48

AFAIK this 'Maitri' SAM deal hasn't been signed for years now. Best we start looking for local alternatives.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 22 Jun 2014 17:59

abhik wrote:AFAIK this 'Maitri' SAM deal hasn't been signed for years now. Best we start looking for local alternatives.

Deal was signed in August 2010 and the first test firing was expected end of 2012. In April 2011, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said, "The design and development would be totally indigenous and only a few things such as the production technology and seeker would be from the partners (MBDA)."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 22 Jun 2014 20:51

SSridhar wrote:
abhik wrote:AFAIK this 'Maitri' SAM deal hasn't been signed for years now. Best we start looking for local alternatives.

Deal was signed in August 2010 and the first test firing was expected end of 2012. In April 2011, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said, "The design and development would be totally indigenous and only a few things such as the production technology and seeker would be from the partners (MBDA)."

After some googling found this link which says that the MoU was actually signed only in Feb 2013.
India, France sign $6 bn deal on Surface to Air Missile
Then there is this article (dated Nov 2013) which seems to suggest it not a done deal yet.
Indo-French 'Maitri' missile program to take off
Still waiting for clarity and concrete dates.


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