Artillery: News & Discussion

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Jun 2014 12:36

Where does it say that Dhanush has a Mercedes Engine? Also why can't some Indian Pvt Sector Party supply the APU engine?

Will · Post by **Will** » 23 Jun 2014 12:38

Nothing amazing has happened yet.

Except for environmental clearances. Everyone has a lot of expectations from this govt. But it needs time. 6 months down the line would be a good indicator whether things are moving in the right direction. Remember that the babu log and arms mafia are too deeply entrenched. Lets see if the govt can make headway or ends up getting bogged down in the mire.

mody · Post by **mody** » 23 Jun 2014 13:43

The DRDO effort to develop a 155 mm/52 cal gun should be cancelled in favour of the Kalyani Gun (offcourse subject to trials and validation of the later's design).

DRDO should instead start development of a Turret like the T6 for the tracked version of the Kalyani Gun, on the Arjun Chassis.

Same way, Tata's and Kalyani should asked to work together, to come with a truck mounted Kalyani Gun.
The Truck mount and associated systems with the Denel gun are ready. Since the gun is not being manufactured in India, I would prefer the kalyani Gun. Plus also offers us better economies of scale, driving down the price of the kalyani Gun.

DRDO effort should be focused more towards the associated weapons locating and targeting radars and getting all of the various types guns to be fully network centric war compatible and new generation shells and ammo for 155 mm guns.

OFB should be given the order for 416 gun Towed 155 mm 45 cal guns (Dhanush), as is being proposed and a further order to upgrade 420 M46 130 mm guns, to 155 mm, 39/45 cal.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 23 Jun 2014 15:20

Vic Saar,

IA Bofors has the Merc engine, as per some chaiwalla info.

Mody Saab,

All of the M-46 (700 - 1000 nos.) should be made 155 mm, do away with 130 mm caliber for good.

> US and NATO forces use only these 2 calibers.

> Soviet supplied forces have a medley of artillery - 76 mm Yugo, 106 mm AT, 122 mm, 130 mm, 152 mm, 180 mm, etc.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2014 16:59

^^^Does it strike you that there is a reason induction of 155/52 caliber guns is called 'Field Artillery Rationalization Plan'? The idea is to have uniform caliber across the army save for specialist requirement like mountain warfare. Where 105mm is still likely to be used. As for M-46, large numbers were bought post dissolution of USSR because (a) Nothing was happening on Bofors front (b) It came at throwaway price. Result was Army converted many of its Field Regiments into Medium Regiment.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2014 17:08

mody wrote:The DRDO effort to develop a 155 mm/52 cal gun should be cancelled

Shabji,

That gun is nex gen.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 23 Jun 2014 20:09

Mercedes APU is also mentioned on the internet, incl this link:
http://archive.today/EImKx

It also says that IA had Bofors barrel tech in 1988

, when they tried to "marry" a barrel with the howitzer APU. (I think this means that the spare Bofors Barrel + some jugaad Breech Block + original APU was tried out, to build a desi howitzer, but not successful).

Summary: Known good barrel + unreliable breech block.

Kunal Biswas of DFI forums had stated that the Breech Block know-how was gained in 2010 with the M-46 upgrade from Soltam. However, the Soltam barrel was not that good, and contract was on hold after 180 pieces delivered after a barrel explosion.

Summary: Unreliable barrel + Known good breech block.

From " Artillery: a brief history of its impact", a Soltam M-46 modification is mentioned:

Soltam has also developed an upgrade package to modernize the Soviet 130mm field gun by fitting it with an improved 155mm semiautomatic horizontal sliding block barrel. The upgrade includes a pneumatic rammer and enables the 155mm M-46 to chamber all types of modern 155mm ammunition. The upgraded M-46 fires conventional rounds up to 32,808 yards and high performance ammunition up to 42,650 yards.

So what OFB did to make the Dhanush (guess onlee) was a different version of Bofors barrel to 45 cal + something based on the Soltam breech + some desi jugaad for recoil and elevating mechanism + desi Field Ballistic Computers and aquisition system (BEL?) + imported APU parts.

Rohit : FARP never mentions any IA plan for the future of the 130mm piece.However as IA has 100s of them, instead of replacing them 1:1, my "armchair expert " suggestion is convert all of them to 155mm standard, retaining most of the existing parts where possible. This means a lot of the cost and logistics like crew, FAT to haul it , command structure, etc. can be retained. 155mm shells have to be provisioned, off course. The Soltam upgrade for IA actually happened quickly, i think the 180 pieces were converted in a matter of months. I concede that this is only a "dumb ass" suggestion of mine, and i have not done a proper appreciation of the situation.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Jun 2014 20:16

The APU is probably an off the shelf commercial unit, its probably not worth the effort to make a local alternative.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 23 Jun 2014 20:27

Well, just like the good Professor said that Kaveri gearbox should be made by HAL, this mango abdul says that HMT has been making Tractors and APUs for years, let 'em make one for the OFB to perform the same function as the imported one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2014 20:39

Dinesh, you are on track. HMT was originally tapped to make critical parts for original 39 cal Bofors replacement.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 24 Jun 2014 07:51

End of road for major howitzer deal with US

The long-pending $885 million deal with the US government for 145 ultra-light howitzers is headed for a dead-end, with the Indian defence establishment feeling the artillery guns are way too expensive to buy for the new Army divisions being raised for the border with China.

Defence ministry sources on Monday said though no final decision has been taken as yet, there was "no way" the American M-777 ultra-light howitzers could be bought for over Rs 30 crore apiece.

Moreover, artillery manufacturer BAE Systems has "failed to come with a viable and compliant offsets package'' in what is supposed to be a government-to-government deal under the US foreign military sales (FMS) programme.

"Alternatives to the M-777 guns can be found for half the cost. Though in a different class, the indigenous Dhanush howitzer for instance is being manufactured at a cost of Rs 14 crore per gun," said a source.

Like many other big-ticket defence projects, even the proposed M-777 deal has witnessed its own share of controversies, with huge cost escalations, "leaking" of classified field evaluation reports and allegations of irregularities against a top military officer.

The Army has been demanding 155mm/39-calibre light-weight howitzers, with a strike range over 25-km range, for around a decade now. Guns like the M-777, partly made of titanium, can be swiftly air-lifted to "threatened high-altitude areas" along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC).

China, of course, has built massive infrastructure along the LAC, which allows it to swiftly mobilize troops and equipment to outnumber Indian forces by 3:1 there. The howitzer project, among others, is meant to equip the new XVII Mountain Strike Corps (90,000 troops) being raised to gain "quick reaction force capabilities" against China.

"Our border infrastructure is also coming up, albeit slowly. There are more options to take heavier artillery guns to forward areas now," said the source.

The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), led by the defence minister, had in June 2006 formally given the go-ahead for acquiring 145 ultra-light howitzers from abroad. But the frontrunner, the Pegasus gun of Singapore Technology Kinetic's, was ejected after the firm was blacklisted in the corruption scandal against former Ordnance Factory Board chairman Sudipto Ghosh.

India then went in for the M-777 howitzers under the FMS programme, which does not involve an open competition. The US Defence Security Cooperation Agency in January 2010 notified its Congress of the Obama administration's intention to sell the 145 M-777 guns to India for $647 million ( Rs 3,882 crore). The US offer was renewed in August 2013 with the new project cost being pegged at $885 million (Rs 5,310 crore).

Critical Projects:

* Almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters. French Rafale jet won selection process, which began in August 2007, but project yet to be inked. IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons.

* Over Rs 50,000-crore acquisition of six new-generation stealth submarines, with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion (AIP). Project-75India approved in November 2007 but global tender yet to be issued. Navy down to just nine operational diesel-electric submarines at present, with another four stuck in long refits.

* Over Rs 3,000-crore acquisition of 197 new light-utility helicopters for IAF and Army. Project already scrapped once in December 2007. 440 such helicopters needed to replace virtually obsolete Cheetah/Chetak fleets.

* Over Rs 30,000 crore artillery modernization plan for 145 ultra-light howitzers, 1,580 towed guns, 814 mounted guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns etc. India has not inducted a single 155mm artillery gun since the Bofors scandal of the mid-1980s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2014 07:59

I wonder if a Dhanush-Lite could be made with slightly more use of lighter metal alloys , removing the APU , narrower wheels etc .... its not beyond us if some multi-nodel effort is applied now.... I was always skeptical of the idea of airlifting M777 to isolated hilltop bases and using that to dominate an area as some were claiming here is its unique capability underslung the uber-Chinooks.

with no tactical mobility up on the hill at best it could hide inside a bunker and hope for best
who would supply the vast amt of ammo needed to fight a conventional war...lobbing some 10 shells to beat off a taliban probe is a whole lotta different from beating back a PLA batallion with their own heavy artillery, mortars and WLRs.

No, I think its best to improve roads progressively and induct regular towed artillery.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2014 09:19

The M777 deal was doomed from word-go: There was a strong arms lobby + babu nexus against its induction because the original requirement was framed for the Singapore Pegasus gun. Only it could have met the requirements. General VKS mentions it very clearly in his book.

While the army has had a need for a lighter gun with heavier caliber for mountainous areas, it seems this requirement was crafted in a manner that it would suit ST Pegasus gun. VKS sensed that an brought in M777 because it was a better gun and FMS route meant no hanky-panky. ST did not help it's case by getting black-listed.

On the face of it, it is good that this deal is dead.

IIRC, Kalyani had made a statement that they'd be working on a lighter 155mm gun - ideal situation would be to use Dhanush platform for lighter gun. However, even if that does not happen, Kalyani should be given order under make and buy category with 80% of R&D coming from army and balance from Kalyani to develop prototypes. Indian produced gun will allow for much larger deployment than few regiments here and there.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 24 Jun 2014 10:51

Like the change in tone and awakening to available home built capabilities.

M777 purchase would have meant follow on Chinook and what not!

On a separate note - Who makes up the 'Arms' lobby/Import lobby. Some say retired generals, euro arms dealers, MoD?

At the same time, I see heads of armed forces flashing how much billion $ will be spent on modernization and acquisitions over next 5 or 10 years. No point in blaming flies when one leaves the honey pot open outside.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 24 Jun 2014 11:29

Sheet, by cancelling the deal, the NDA has done the unthinkable.............they have pulled the rug from under everyone's feet.....I think Modi wants to build a Russia or China style defense industry, where indigenous solutions will be explored first.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2014 11:41

unless kalyani achieves some success with their basic voest alpine GHN45 155-45/52 design in the towed contest I dont think they can sustain another uncertain proj for a mountain gun.

our towed gun needs are so massive there is space to have 3 models in parallel - kalyani (put it into trials), dhanush and the old fh77b. each corps or command can operate a single type of gun, we have N number of corps.

anyways the wheeled guns will be different perhaps archer, perhaps ceaser...then there's is older 105mm

this will also improve the production rate as beyond a point OFB cannot produce dhanush fast enough. it will build additional scale and manpower and ecosystem.

sweetheart single source munna deals to OFB/MDL type PSUs is the death of attempts by pvt industry to build something here, even if not so bleeding edge.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Jun 2014 11:42

dinesh_kumar wrote:Sheet, by cancelling the deal, the NDA has done the unthinkable.............they have pulled the rug from under everyone's feet.....I think Modi wants to build a Russia or China style defense industry, where indigenous solutions will be explored first.

you have to start some where, cant just keep dragging on claiming our desi industry is not good

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Jun 2014 12:07

If the M 777 gets scrapped, I would be very happy. At the same time, I would also be open to the idea if some Indian entity could pick up the tech and the associated plant & machinery, to build the weapon at home.

If this helps in reducing the costs and provides a technical foundation for a weapon of this nature. Nothing like it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2014 12:09

nik wrote:Like the change in tone and awakening to available home built capabilities.<SNIP>

Dude, you better drop this holier-than-thou attitude and stick to discussion+topic at hand. You've hell lot to learn before you start going around passing sermons and preaching to others.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 Jun 2014 02:04

I just wish someone starts concurrent development of a domestic turret around any of these 45/52 cal guns. We can load the same in a Tatra/Tata/AL truck or Arjun and fulfil the MGS + tracked requirement with a common gun. It is a bloody turret, how difficult it can be? Have we not built the turret for Arjun? or the Medhak gun? For further ref about integrating a howitzer on a road mobile platform, the Bhim prototype must be there somewhere accessible to desi engineers.

In fact, I would say no need to wait for the development/certification of 52 Cal. Even a 45 Cal Dhanus on a mobile platform(MGS + tracked) will be a truly force multiplier and in Indian cost, can be had in numbers without any fear of sanction. The shorter 45 Cal barrel will actually make the mobile gun lighter and more agile. We need the enhanced mobility for the strike corps, do we really need the 52 cal there or is 45 cal itself sufficient and 52 cal good to have?

And irrespective of all latest whiz-bangs, artillery still remains the God of War (particularly if backed by sanction proof indigenous ACCCS using sanction proof Indian military sat for communication purpose). This also enhances our sanction proof offensive capability multiple fold giving cold start real teeth.

Anyone with access to chaiwala, paanwala and assorted walas, please pass on this development request for the low hanging fruit. Pls, pls, pretty pls.

member_28476 · Post by **member_28476** » 25 Jun 2014 02:21

Nexter joined two indian industrials so as to propose their CAESAR.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 Jun 2014 02:42

^^ Given the trends in direct import, it will be costly upfront as well as in life cycle compared to equivalent Dhanus based platform. And given the trends in IA ordering, there will be additional orders in future which will keep on being costly without any economic benefit to Indian tax payer.

Neither it will be sanction proof. Also logistics would become more complex with two different types of guns that can be avoided.

If we go with the Nexter solution, the entire turret will come from outside, the only value addition Indian private companies will do is to provide the truck (lower value in order of magnitude with respect to the foreign turret) and to provide engineering consultancy service for integration of the turret with the truck and future maintenance support.

Since we have survived so many years without any mobile artillery, my vote would be to wait for a few years for indigenous solution. I do not see any pressing need for this CAESAR right now. If, the development of indigenous solution hits a roadblock in say 5 years, we can go for this Nexter based solution then.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Jun 2014 06:28

Since Denels 10 year ban is getting over in sometime, Bhim will be back on track.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 25 Jun 2014 06:56

Based on Dhanush if one can be build, that will be even better.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Jun 2014 09:20

The way a lot of our defence deals are structured is that 25% of the equipment is directly imported and the rest 75% is assembled/manufactured in India. That means if the Nexter Caesar wins the mounted artillery deal then they get to produce 200 of them in France. And possibly supply a significant proportion of components for the 600 that will get assembled in India. Now to put that into perspective France itself has ordered less than 80 systems. So winning the tender is like winning the lottery. I think its high time we stop paying for other countries military industrial complex. If it has to be imported let them build 100% in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jun 2014 09:26

even if we assemble 600, it will be likely from components and kits that are designed, built and tested in france prior to delivery. so the least value add part of the job will get done here. I agree that overhauling will be done here but we will continue to pay heavily for every nut, bolt and upgrade going forward.

is better to take something whose IP we have in control like GHN45 or Dhanush and evolve wheeled / tracked from out of it. if a big tracked vehicle not a arjun is desired for weight saving, the S400 systems have such a vehicle also of russian origin. the general dynamics land systems has managed to mount a 155mm on the MLRS tracked chassis and so can we.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... ny_640.jpg

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/wp-conte ... ussia.jpeg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Jun 2014 09:59

In as much I hate delays in induction of weapon systems in the services, I am willing to wait for induction of artillery guns if we can manage to standardize the gun. The towed, tracked, wheeled and mounted guns should derive from same gun. We have the example of ALH and Rudra and LCH+LUH going forward

We will otherwise end up with alphabet soup of different guns across all segments. If nothing else can be done than at least ensure we get Denel gun for tracked,wheeled and mounted gun. That ways we'll have only two gun types in service.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 Jun 2014 11:12

chackojoseph wrote:Since Denels 10 year ban is getting over in sometime, Bhim will be back on track.

Till the next time it is banned or embargoed. And the financial disadvantage still remains.

Also, SA will look to maximize its strategic benefit; we will soon see the fruits of our tax payment going to Pak in some form of raad or some such. Make no mistake, order for denel gun by India will dwarf anything SA has purchased so far and there is no reason for that income not to X-subsidize other development activity by SA and then hawk it elsewhere.

All because even after having the gun, recoil systems, ballistic computer, both version of mobile systems etc available, we did not go for development of a turret with loading mechanism. And we already have have previous example of ground up development of turret as well as component for loading system like rammer etc.

Now that we are in with the break-though in Dhanush, there will be lot of such ToT/co production offers with discount upfront from all sundry vendors which will just allow final assembly here in India and still mint money on component price over the life cycle. And most of the high value items will never be indigenised. We HAD to accept them earlier, no such reasons exist any more.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 Jun 2014 11:29

And the strategic benefit of having the most crucial component of an offensive capability completely under control can not be emphasized enough.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jun 2014 11:47

a desi alphabet soup - 105 IFG, dhanush, GHN45 , xyz is preferable over a bideshi like M777, archer/ceasar, T6...just as with desktop printers, aero engines, certain medical devices these things too are a cash cow in supply of spares and repair work over decades. they can afford to sell at or below cost to kill domestic contenders then screw us over decades by going slow on transferring even overhaul expertise and manufacture of parts as the russians often do.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Jun 2014 13:50

Picklu wrote:And the strategic benefit of having the most crucial component of an offensive capability completely under control can not be emphasized enough.

+108

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 26 Jun 2014 12:46

ST Kinetics had produced the FH-2000 in response of an army order for 18 artillery pieces.

Singapore is determined to be a producer of defence equipment, and is fully self sufficient in design , manufacture and production of Small Arms, Artillery Pieces (4 types incl. ULWH) and APCs. They have got export successes in UK, Thailand and Indonesia. Singapore being small, city sized state has no artillery ranges or other infrastructure which we take for granted in India.

Their latest LPHD ships are also successfully designed and built by ST Kinetics Marine.(they dont have many docks / Shipyards / harbours, etc.)

It is really revolutionary. Tamil Film Director Shankar's film "Anniyan" also speaks of how Singapore gained freedom much after India, and was worse off in the 50s and 60s. Later, it has acheived dizzying heights while we have languished. I remember in the 80s, Singapore was a much sought after tourism hub, and many people from India wanted to visit, and "study the system there".

As first step, and in light of Dhanush performing well in trials, let us, please, stop any contracts with Nexter, XYZ, etc. and develop system on our own, for all requirements like Truck, Wheeled, Light Weight, etc. If we waited 35 years in absence of Artillery system, we can wait 2-3 years more for development of desi system. With Catapult, 105mm , and Dhanush, thats all we can offer IA till our own system in place. I dont mind taking L &T 's, M&M, Tata's help in manufacturing Turrets, platforms, etc. but no deal for French (or any other ) company like Nexter.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Jun 2014 13:32

It is really revolutionary. Tamil Film Director Shankar's film "Anniyan" also speaks of how Singapore gained freedom much after India, and was worse off in the 50s and 60s. Later, it has acheived dizzying heights while we have languished. I remember in the 80s, Singapore was a much sought after tourism hub, and many people from India wanted to visit, and "study the system there".

Offtopic i know..but just to nitpick. You are comparing apples to oranges. Dont forget that Singapore was run as a defacto dictatorship to allow to flourish because of the Vision of one man. A smaller more homogeneous population is easier to mold than that of India.

Secondly, forget prior to Independence India was never one Unified Entity in consciousness. And we are still far from that even today. India is a sovereign state but has many miles to go before being a Nation. Till you don't achieve that any "system" is only going to work in localized areas (example Gujarat).

Lastly, most things in life comes down to Education Education Education. An uneducated starving and abused population is not going to follow a system.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 26 Jun 2014 14:25

^ man, the point is, they developed the system for an order of 18 artillery pieces, when they could have araam se gone to Unkil ....Singapore, after all, is not sanction prone like India.....

They use a lot of second hand equipment, like 70s LPHD ships from Unkil, but i speculate that all systems are closely studied by ST Kinetics and their University, and indegenisation studies are started... and no lack of money, I think their GDP and reserves were better than ours up till the 90s...Recently they bought 6 2nd hand Gotland Subs from Sweden, i'm sure they will build the next generation on their own..compare this with our saga of Kilo, Type 209 and the sting of the scorpene.

Did you know that Assault Rifles are built in Singapore!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 26 Jun 2014 15:00

Independence ke din suraj ulti disha se utha tha kya? Aur uske

....................................

For the plains however the mobility of the Arjun Chassis and a Dhanush on it will be a killer app. (Indian jugaad version). Couple that with some prviate companies making mounted versions and towed 52 cals - sone pe suhaga.

For the mountains the plain articulated towed version of Dhanush should work considering they took the 39 cal bofors to kargil. The better bet in case of mountains would be developing a good guided round for Dhanush instead of developing more variety of guns. That has the potential to cut down on logistics tail too. Right now in order to achieve accuracy in mountains the cost of deploy-able weapons is prohibitive or the solution will never be available in numbers. But a logistics tail that makes arrangements focused around the smart artillery shell can be adopted faster. In any case we should have full GPS coverage from our own sats soon and there is time enough for us to develop our own GPS round.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 26 Jun 2014 17:26

^ Of the above (all good ideas), plain towed version is easiest to acheive.......it should be done by EME/OFB.
Turreted and Mounted version more difficult.........it can be possibly by DRDO/CVRDE.
That GPS enabled shell seems most difficult.......same guys who did the Sudarshan LGB may be useful here.
No Nexter, Unkil, etc. in equation.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 26 Jun 2014 18:19

If TATA SED can work with OFB for Pinaka co-development and co-manufacture, I do not see why they can not work with OFB for Dhanush Turret development.

They have already integrated the denel gun for truck mounted version so the experience of integration is there; how much different it will be to integrate Dhanush?

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 26 Jun 2014 20:14

With reference to the Singapore connection pointed out by Dinesh above,it is worth remembering that in the 60's Singapore had contacted India to help build up its armed forces we demurred and did not offer aid, that role was then taken up by the israelis who built up a military industrial partnership that led to the formation of the Singapore military and the Military industrila complexx in Singapore that we see today.I believe it was another one of the many golden chances we have lost through the years.

The two Israelis met with Lee, who writes that he "told Keng Swee to put it on hold until Lal Bahadur Shastri, the prime minister of India, and President Nasser of Egypt replied to my letters seeking their urgent help to build up our armed forces."

It's not clear whether Lee, in fact, believed India and Egypt were capable of, or interested in, building up Singapore's army. Many Israelis believe the two leaders were approached only for appearance's sake. After a few weeks of waiting, India and Egypt congratulated Singapore on its independence but did not offer military aid. Lee ordered Goh to push ahead in contacts with the Israelis.

http://therealsingapore.com/content/how ... med-forces

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 26 Jun 2014 20:22

It would never have happened anyway. India was in a different ecosystem and israel would likely have been a cover for the us to keep control of this "key" to east managed by the royal navy.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 Jun 2014 09:54

With reference to the Singapore connection pointed out by Dinesh above,it is worth remembering that in the 60's Singapore had contacted India to help build up its armed forces we demurred and did not offer aid, that role was then taken up by the israelis who built up a military industrial partnership that led to the formation of the Singapore military and the Military industrila complexx in Singapore that we see today.I believe it was another one of the many golden chances we have lost through the years.

Lol Thank god for Singapore..Imagine if India and Egypt had helped build their Military and Mil-Ind complex...