LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 26 Jun 2014 20:55

Rishirishi wrote:
who is the manufacturar of this. Cant Mittal or Tata help in this respect.

My information is 3-4 years old - from a BRFite who was allowed into HAL as special guest because of political connections. Since it is Aluminium I doubt if steel concerns can help. He was the one who also told me about the made in China made CNC machine swarming with Chinese technicians inside HAL.

There is every possibility that some Indian metallurgical company - typically something like the PSU Mishra Dhatu Nigam may have developed a similar alloy but I have no new information. It may not be as big a deal as I am making it out to be - but there is a huge problem in ramping up numbers because of such unexpected reasons.

Dr. Kota Harinarayana has written about how he found an obscure workshop in Mumbai to fashion a complex piece of tubing for the first LCA prototype. But for someone to produce 100 copies of that in a set time period - it would take
1. The promise of a large order
2. Advance payment
3. Setting up of a special production line to produce the part in numbers
4. Locating skilled workers to do the fashioning of the part and if such workers do not exist many new ones have to be trained.

And as a footnote I can add that after the order if the workers are allowed to go back to old jobs and not ustilised for their skills - the industry loses - just like India lost by stopping a submarine production line.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby nikhil_p » 26 Jun 2014 22:49

When the LCA was first unveiled, there was a picture of a board showing all suppliers. If anyone has that picture, will surely help us piece together some answers (including the Al billet).

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Krishnakg » 26 Jun 2014 23:23

LCA uses Aluminum Lithium alloys specifically in tail and wing leading edges

http://www.aame.in/2012/12/use-of-composites-in-india-aircraft.html

Suggested reading for more in depth knowledge, and check the authors :)

http://www.france-metallurgie.com/index.php/2014/01/12/aluminum-lithium-alloys-processing-properties-and-applications/

Aluminum-lithium alloys (AL-Li) were developed primarily as direct replacements for existing aluminum alloys to reduce the weight of aircraft and aerospace structures. It has been realized that the most efficient way of doing this is to develop low density materials, since weight reduction through reduced component size often leads to low stiffness parts and reduced fatigue life. Typical components that benefit from low density alloys include structural members in airframes, aerospace vehicle skins, and liquid oxygen and hydrogen fuel tanks in spacecraft.

Aluminum producers began major development of aluminum-lithium alloys in the 1970's with the objective of introducing light weight, high stiffness aluminum alloys that could be fabricated on existing equipment and components could be handled and assembled using established techniques. Some of the most important commercial alloys in this class include 2090, 2091, 8090, and Weldalite 049 that were introduced in the 1980's. The table below shows the chemical composition of these alloys.

Composition of aluminum-lithium alloys (wt. %)
    Alloy Cu Li Zr Others
    2090 2.7 2.2 0.12 -
    2091 2.1 2.0 0.1 -
    8090 1.3 2.45 0.12 0.95 Mg
    Weldalite 5.4 1.3 0.14 0.4 Ag
    049 0.4 Mg

Pros and Cons

The advantages of Al-Li alloys over conventional aluminum alloys include relatively low densities, high elastic modulus, excellent fatigue and cryogenic strength and toughness properties, and superior fatigue crack growth resistance. The last property is a key factor for damage-tolerant aircraft design. However, it has been discovered that the high resistance to fatigue crack growth is due to a jagged crack path through the material that produces a large amount of roughness-induced crack closure under tension dominated loading. Crack closure is a phenomenon first documented in the 1970's that reduces the severity of the stress intensity at the crack tip under an externally applied load. It is therefore beneficial, provided it can be counted on to exist. Unfortunately, loading conditions that contain compression or compressive overloads, that flatten the crack surfaces, reduce or eliminate crack closure and cause crack growth rates to accelerate significantly.

Another disadvantage of these alloys is that in the strongest (desirable) heat treated conditions, the mechanical properties are often highly anisotropic. There exists, for example, significantly depressed ductility and fracture toughness in the short transverse direction. Another drawback is a very high crack growth rate for micro structurally short cracks which potentially allows for fast crack initiation. This could mean relatively early cracking in high stress regions such as rivet holes.

Current Usage

Aluminum-lithium alloys have not yet received the widespread usage and acceptance hoped y the commercial producers. However, some aluminum-lithium alloys have been utilized on recent commercial jetliner air-frames and the material is used significantly in the EH101 helicopter. In addition, several AL-LI alloys are :under consideration” for a wide variety of developmental and experimental aircraft and space vehicles. The cost of Al-Li alloys is typically three to five times that of the conventional aluminum alloys they are intended to replace. This is due partly to the relatively high cost of Lithium and also to high processing and handling costs for the material.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 26 Jun 2014 23:51

For *all* those that habitually complain about Indian Labs not meeting time lines or dates that leaders mention, here is the bottom line:

Aluminum producers began major development of aluminum-lithium alloys in the 1970's with the objective of introducing light weight, high stiffness aluminum alloys that could be fabricated on existing equipment and components could be handled and assembled using established techniques. Some of the most important commercial alloys in this class include 2090, 2091, 8090, and Weldalite 049 that were introduced in the 1980's. The table below shows the chemical composition of these alloys.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Zynda » 27 Jun 2014 01:19

Great post Krishnakg sir.

Do you have any references for the mechanical properties of Al-Li alloy content? (apart from the couple of links you have mentioned)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 27 Jun 2014 01:31

The use of aluminium is not just for surfaces, but also rods, pipes etc. Generally, HAL tenders for Al-Li alloy raw materials are solicited from the following list of vendors.

1. M/s. AUBERT & DUVAL, FRANCE
2. M/s. COMPTOIR GENERAL DES METAUX, FRANCE
3. M/s. GOULD ALLOYS LTD, UK
4. M/s. MAHER LTD, UK
5. M/s. PARIS ST DENIS AERO, FRANCE
6. M/s. TENNANT METALL & TECHNOLOGIE GMBH, FRANCE
7. M/s. TW METALS LTD, UK
8. M/s. AIRCRAFT MATERIALS UK COM LTD
9. M/s. ALL METAL SERVICES, UK
10. M/s. ROLLED ALLOYS - CANADA INC., CANADA
11. M/s. AMARI AEROSPACE LIMITED
12. M/S. THYSSENKRUPP AEROSPACE UK LTD, FRANCE
13. M/s. ALERIS ROLLED PRODUCTS GMBH, GERMANY
14. M/s. NORTON ALUMINIUM LTD. UK
15. M/s. STORK INTERNATIONAL GMBH, AUSTRIA
16. M/s. SCOPE METALS GROUPS LTD., ISRAEL
17. M/s. SMITHS ADVANCED METALS, UK
18. M/s. AMI METALS INC, BELGIUM
19. M/s. TIMET, US
20. M/s. FIRTH RIXSON METALS, UK
21. M/s. TARGET AERO, UAE
22. M/s. AMERICAN AIR-TECH, USA
23. M/s. TATA STEEL UK LIMITED, UK
24. M/s. THYSSENKRUPP AEROSPACE UK LTD, BIRMINGHAM,UK
25. M/s. FALCON AERO INC, USA
26. M/S. THYSSENKRUPP AEROSPACE UK LTD, MILTON KEYNES,UK
27. M/s. ATELIER DE HAUTE GARONNE AUROIL, FRANCE
28. M/s. KALAPURNA STEEL & ENGINEERING PVT LTD., MUMBAI
29. M/s. ORDNANCE FACTORY, AMBAJHARI, NAGPUR
30. M/s. SECAMIC, FRANCE

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 04:21

Talked to someone in the know. Gun port may finally be moved and upgraded to single revolver cannon in MKII.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2014 04:35

Will the MK-II be a MK-II or something totally different, when it is done?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 04:48

NRao wrote:Will the MK-II be a MK-II or something totally different, when it is done?


MKII will be about 90% similar. Overall, change in management is needed. Says he is losing hope in the program because of this. Says its better that it gets shifted to private hands in due time. Lack of desi engine, munitions, missiles, etc is a killer for us. Says that the culture is not conducive for R&D and production. Lack of talent is also a big issue. Everyone feels that in a few years most of HAL, DRDO, OFB will be sold off. They are just not performing. Overall, not good news. I agree with him for the most part.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2014 06:11

RoyG wrote:Talked to someone in the know. Gun port may finally be moved and upgraded to single revolver cannon in MKII.


Interesting. Any idea which one - because the name "single revolver cannon" is unfamiliar to me.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 06:42

shiv wrote:
RoyG wrote:Talked to someone in the know. Gun port may finally be moved and upgraded to single revolver cannon in MKII.


Interesting. Any idea which one - because the name "single revolver cannon" is unfamiliar to me.


Single barreled revolver cannon.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2014 06:49

Overall, not good news.


Depends.

Hopefully the units sold will do better.

Also, such efforts require a certain type of person/people. May be the high that such a challenge provides is no longer there and that is understandable.

Not easy.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2014 06:55

RoyG wrote:Single barreled revolver cannon.

What is a single barreled revolver cannon? I have never hard of that.

Single barreled cannon yes. Revolver, yes. But not single barreled revolver cannon. Single barrels do not need to revolve for any reason.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 07:42

Look up the bk-27 shivji.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2014 08:21

RoyG wrote:Look up the bk-27 shivji.

Thanks.

In fact the Wiki link does describe it as having a "revolver" action. But I was unable to find any information on what that means.


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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby atma » 27 Jun 2014 09:23

shiv wrote:
RoyG wrote:Look up the bk-27 shivji.

Thanks.

In fact the Wiki link does describe it as having a "revolver" action. But I was unable to find any information on what that means.


You are right. Confusing term to describe this gun. The barrel does not revolve. The feed system probably does (link-less in the Eurofighter)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jun 2014 09:27

Think of it as a gattling gun without multiple barrels and no external power source for any kind of rotating mechanism. You should be left with multiple (at least two) loading chambers to any number (except zero) barrels. The spun weight unlike the gattling is a lot lot less and the recoil mechanism of one or more barrels can be used to cock the projectile chambers. The initial rate of fire should get maximised which is what you want in fast moving aircrafts. Gast mechanism - German idea used heavily by the Soviets in even the ground attack roles. That is why we do not see an A-10 equivalent in the Soviet armoury and also do not see gattling guns in air to air combat.

From Germans to Soviets then to the Russians and from Russians to the Indian LCA Tejas - This is how the Indian lineage gets born. What that would mean is that the twin barrel cannon GsH-23 that we see in pics on the net could get out and an outlier (truely outlier) possibility that a larger cannon may be coming in at some point (or at least may at present be trail ballooned). A Su 30 cannon on an LCA :D.

Saale Indians bhi pagal hein. Good keep trying out things. Just do not mess up the production schedule though.

Added later - The single or even multiple barrels do not need to revolve. Which is right. But even in a revolver the barrel does not revolve. Only the chambers do.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Austin » 27 Jun 2014 09:59

Any reason why they want to change the gun ? A 30 mm Gun having a higher recoil over 27 mm for a light aircraft ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vina » 27 Jun 2014 10:25

NRao wrote:Will the MK-II be a MK-II or something totally different, when it is done?

Ok. The Mig 29 and SU30 ,Gsh 30 mm cannon for the LCA. Makes sense from a logistical standpoint and you can get rid of the legacy Gsh23L with the retiring of the Mig21s. Cheaper and lighter I guess.

But with this YellCeeYea's gun is more "motaa" than the Thundaar's .. :(( :(( . Kuffar's Jehaaj has a more motaa gun!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jun 2014 10:32

Much lighter Migs with much less lower a pelvic thrust have flown these motaa guns. I think the heavier gun could be useful. Sample this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-301

In combination with a laser rangefinding/targeting system, it is reported to be extremely accurate as well as powerful, capable of destroying a target with as few as three to five rounds.


But in an already cramped aircraft how much more re-engineering can be done. The Jingo in me would be greatly pleased if this gets done. Mogambo khush hua. But at this late stage this could also become another reason for a hold up of the schedule - winter trail, summer trail, spring failures ....

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Yogi_G » 27 Jun 2014 10:47

The Ruskies built up specialist aluminium forges for their AN-124 and AN-225 program where the wings needed specific length aluminium bars, welding individual bars together simply wouldn't do. I am sure these factories could help us for aluminium needs no?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Jun 2014 10:56

How did not having one's own missiles, engines, munitions, etc not affect the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-21 etc. Funny, only the LCA is affected.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby deejay » 27 Jun 2014 13:02

I am sure NAL (Jamshedpur) is just the place for new this light weight Aluminium development. It is very capable research set up.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby srai » 27 Jun 2014 13:21

RoyG wrote:
NRao wrote:Will the MK-II be a MK-II or something totally different, when it is done?


MKII will be about 90% similar. Overall, change in management is needed. Says he is losing hope in the program because of this. Says its better that it gets shifted to private hands in due time. Lack of desi engine, munitions, missiles, etc is a killer for us. Says that the culture is not conducive for R&D and production. Lack of talent is also a big issue. Everyone feels that in a few years most of HAL, DRDO, OFB will be sold off. They are just not performing. Overall, not good news. I agree with him for the most part.


HAL and OFB can be privatised over time. But same cannot be said for the DRDO, which is more of a national-level long-range focused R&D on "advanced" defence materials and technologies. These types of activities tend to be government owned world over.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jun 2014 14:05

The issue is the preparation of a block of specific Al alloy in a single crystal without flaws that is then cnc'ed to make the central wing box - this is the core of the aircraft and is a jealously guarded technology that only a few have managed to produce. It's not just about the alloy itself

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2014 14:14

He was the one who also told me about the made in China made CNC machine swarming with Chinese technicians inside HAL


Very interesting. Putting that trade (im)balance to some good use, eh?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Ashokk » 27 Jun 2014 16:18

deejay wrote:I am sure NAL (Jamshedpur) is just the place for new this light weight Aluminium development. It is very capable research set up.

I think you mean NML (National Metallurgical Laboratory), Jamshedpur.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2014 16:29

ravi_g wrote:Think of it as a gattling gun without multiple barrels and no external power source for any kind of rotating mechanism.

ravi "Gatling" by definition is multibarrel rotating. Russkies started using gas blowback to rotate without motor achieving full RPM almost instantly.

This canon is single barrel "revolver". What revolves?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Jun 2014 16:33


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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 17:39

Karan M wrote:How did not having one's own missiles, engines, munitions, etc not affect the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-21 etc. Funny, only the LCA is affected.


Can you please tell me how many of the planes you've listed we can make without a foreign partner providing critical tech? He has told me that the culture is complete rubbish at HAL. He will be retiring soon and is hopeful that those that are still planning on putting a good 5-10 years with the agency will finally be rewarded for putting in good work with some private co. Utter non-sense in his opinion to stay the course and try to change the management. Recommendations fly around for 10-20 years and people just sit on their a** and hope that some foreigner walks in with some designs and kits requiring a wrench and glue. We have a few good projects but overall the entire gov owned defense production and R&D is finished for the most part.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2014 18:05

We have a few good projects but overall the entire gov owned defense production and R&D is finished for the most part.


In some *critical* areas I would think that to be true. In fact I expect that.

some foreigner walks in with some designs


(State this as an ex ardent fan of the AMCA) I am getting to a point where I am convinced that India is too far behind to design a proper "5th Gen" plane - tech not there, because funds are not there. *And* the leader is galloping away too fast.






What I am finding very, very hard to swallow is that India is willing to talk about plunking $30 *billion* on the MMRCA and another $30-35 *billion* on the FGFA *AND* at the end of it India will be just where she is outside of having to show a dozen squads of planes.

For that price I would expect India to rule in most critical areas.



My feel is that India needs to seriously think about her future (which is sliding away pretty fast) and separate the two distinct topic: building number of planes for the IAF and building a solid MIC. At this point in time they are water and oil - they just do not mix.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jun 2014 18:38

shiv wrote:
ravi_g wrote:Think of it as a gattling gun without multiple barrels and no external power source for any kind of rotating mechanism.

ravi "Gatling" by definition is multibarrel rotating. Russkies started using gas blowback to rotate without motor achieving full RPM almost instantly.

This canon is single barrel "revolver". What revolves?



shiv ji,

we can have the following permutations available to us:

chambers rotate barrel stationary - Gast gun, revolvers
chambers stationary barrel rotate - Puckle guns
chambers rotate barrel rotate - Gattling gun
chambers stationary barrel stationary - Other types of guns including Starship ray guns :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Jun 2014 19:08

^ For aircraft gun, IAF are using different ones for Sea Harrier and Jaguar, as well as different ones for each type of russian aircraft.Now, the function of aircraft gun is essentially the same, regardless of mission profile of ac. It is analogous to a drop tank. Different versions of same gun is ok for mounting and optimizing on aircraft (like ADEN barrel lt., wt. and no. of rounds on Jaguar/S-H)

^^HAL with foreign umbilical cord will remain dependent and sluggish. Obviously, as they dont own the product, they are not responsible for it. PSU culture also cushions them from shock of the marketplace.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby RoyG » 27 Jun 2014 19:35

NRao wrote:
We have a few good projects but overall the entire gov owned defense production and R&D is finished for the most part.


In some *critical* areas I would think that to be true. In fact I expect that.

some foreigner walks in with some designs


(State this as an ex ardent fan of the AMCA) I am getting to a point where I am convinced that India is too far behind to design a proper "5th Gen" plane - tech not there, because funds are not there. *And* the leader is galloping away too fast.






What I am finding very, very hard to swallow is that India is willing to talk about plunking $30 *billion* on the MMRCA and another $30-35 *billion* on the FGFA *AND* at the end of it India will be just where she is outside of having to show a dozen squads of planes.

For that price I would expect India to rule in most critical areas.



My feel is that India needs to seriously think about her future (which is sliding away pretty fast) and separate the two distinct topic: building number of planes for the IAF and building a solid MIC. At this point in time they are water and oil - they just do not mix.


Who knows what will happen with the MMRCA deal or what is being negotiated or what else is attached to the deal. I'm not really sure what sort of tech transfer they are offering but if the past is anything to go by, probably won't amount to sh*t.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Jayram » 27 Jun 2014 20:57

Lalmohan wrote:The issue is the preparation of a block of specific Al alloy in a single crystal without flaws that is then cnc'ed to make the central wing box - this is the core of the aircraft and is a jealously guarded technology that only a few have managed to produce. It's not just about the alloy itself

Just a clarification here it is not known if this is a part that is going to be subjected to high temp/high stress. Most likely not since those requirements occur in engine areas only. So this will not require single crystal technology.. Most likely a "vanilla" Al-Li alloy but with increased fatigue strength and most likely single peice (either extruded or cast or singe part machined). India used to have equipment limitations to produce single sections of these complex aircraft parts in the extruded area. Single peice for better perfomance and weight savings. Dont know if thats is what driving this import need..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_20317 » 27 Jun 2014 21:57

He probably meant 'single piece wing'.

Catenation and Crystalization aren't very far from each other after all :D. Wish there was a hexy girl in between. Maagi of L&M can get conphused in the middle.

But why is single piece so important. I may be misinformed but even the current gold standard in 5th gen that can do no wrong, hear no wrong and bear no wrong - the bright and shiny JSF is also multi piece.

The most pregnant of all the ladies in the room had the single-piece.

Ta da.

Image

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 27 Jun 2014 22:06

I think rather than wasting money on Rafail and PAKFA, give USD 20 Billion dollars to Reliance to set up production line for LCA and AMCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Jun 2014 22:06

RoyG wrote:
Karan M wrote:How did not having one's own missiles, engines, munitions, etc not affect the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-21 etc. Funny, only the LCA is affected.


Can you please tell me how many of the planes you've listed we can make without a foreign partner providing critical tech? He has told me that the culture is complete rubbish at HAL. He will be retiring soon and is hopeful that those that are still planning on putting a good 5-10 years with the agency will finally be rewarded for putting in good work with some private co. Utter non-sense in his opinion to stay the course and try to change the management. Recommendations fly around for 10-20 years and people just sit on their a** and hope that some foreigner walks in with some designs and kits requiring a wrench and glue. We have a few good projects but overall the entire gov owned defense production and R&D is finished for the most part.


The point is his arguments about not having our own weapons being an issue for the LCA, whereas it was no issue for the rest of the IAF fleet, are bogus arguments. HAL may have issues and it surely does, having been long used to imports and TOT, but his claims were just make believe for pointing to the LCA being something uniquely affected because it has foreign weapons. Besides which when push comes to shove, India has integrated systems on its own. Did ADA get support from Russia for R-73. Did IAF get support from the US for Paveway which it integrated onto the Mirages double quick? Is any other nation providing support to India for Sudarshan or Astra? Look up each of those cases and India did it on its own and continues to do so.

Next, your last line "overall Govt owned R&D and production is finished for the most part" is completely wrong and flies in the face of reality. That may be the dream of many including some private sector dudes who are seeking to become the next screw driver OFB by seeking to supplant the PSU cabal with their own cabal, but the reality is that the depth and scale of projects at DRDO and some other govt labs across strategic radars, missiles, EW, complex interdisciplinary and materials science has no equivalent in the private sector, which will take a decade to get to that level. Net, what you will see is the private sector picking up more joint projects with DRDO via offering better terms than the import happy DPSUs or even them beating DPSUs in ToT level programs. But Govt investment and ownership of significant parts of the R&D ecosystem will continue to be there.

disha
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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby disha » 28 Jun 2014 05:15

Read this paper by students from virginia tech. No comments.

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/AIAA2004-0415.pdf


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