Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

fanne
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 25 Jun 2014 15:50

Ramana SIr,
Are you sure that the Lord shows Vishwaroopa 4 or 6 times. In Duryodhana Rajya Sabha (where he went as a shanti doot), he merely showed his viraat rupa (i.e. big body). The context is that Duryodhana wants to ties him and once he becomes big, he does not have enough rope. With Yashodha Mata, there is no Vishwaroopa, When scolded by her for eating mud as a kid and asked to open his mouth to show the mud, she sees universes in his mouth (no Vishwaroopa). I think Vishwaroopa happens only once - during Gita.
I have another question for learned guru - I understand that Krishna helps Indra's son Arjun in war against Sun son Karna (where he did opposite in Ramayna, Helping Sugriva (Sun's son) and Killing Bali (Indra's sun). During Ramayana, Hanjuman Ji is his greatest devotee, and is mentioned much more than Sugriva. Why in Mahabharat, he does not have the same importance as Arjuna? Why did Lord showed Vishwaroopa to Arjuna and not to Bhima. He was more pious than Arjuna, more brave (Kichaka vadh, killed more kaurav sena and while going to heaven, died after Arjuna, sequence being that more sinner died before). Vayu avtaras are mysterious - Hanumana, Bhima and later Madhavacharya? Are we sure Vayu is air and not some deeper meaning?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby putnanja » 25 Jun 2014 18:51

Actually, according to some commentaries that I have read, Bhima was already a gnani. He was a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He also had no doubts about his dharma. He was not tied down emotionally like Arjuna. Arjuna had too much doubts. His wavering at the prospect of killing the kurus at the start of the war is what led to Bhagvat Geeta.

At the start of the war, Sanjaya clearly says that the Pandava army is led by Bhima. He had single handedly defeated almost all kaurava warriors. He is also very knowledgable about Dharma sookshma. After they enter vanvas, he says that they can actually spend just 13 days, each day for a year and then fight back for their kingdom, and that it is acceptable in dharma. There are many such instances. Unfortunately, many later commentaries have made him just like a glutton or dull wrestler etc. His great contributions are not mentioned in the same breath as Arjuna''s or even Karna's.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 26 Jun 2014 02:54

putnanja wrote:Actually, according to some commentaries that I have read, Bhima was already a gnani. He was a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He also had no doubts about his dharma. He was not tied down emotionally like Arjuna. Arjuna had too much doubts. His wavering at the prospect of killing the kurus at the start of the war is what led to Bhagvat Geeta.

At the start of the war, Sanjaya clearly says that the Pandava army is led by Bhima. He had single handedly defeated almost all kaurava warriors. He is also very knowledgable about Dharma sookshma. After they enter vanvas, he says that they can actually spend just 13 days, each day for a year and then fight back for their kingdom, and that it is acceptable in dharma. There are many such instances. Unfortunately, many later commentaries have made him just like a glutton or dull wrestler etc. His great contributions are not mentioned in the same breath as Arjuna''s or even Karna's.

+108.

Agree with everything said and (not said).

All one has to do is few (times) readings of Mahabharata text,

(1) First time just read and become familiar what Mahabharata has to say about Bhima, Arjuna, Yudhishthir, Karna, etc.
(2) Next time around start taking detailed notes on each of the characters... on various aspects - Bravery, strength, Independence of mind, Buddhi, Predictions/proposals made by them, how they defended certain decisions (of their own or of others), to what extent they followed their own vows, their understanding of Dharma, on and on.

Picture becomes clear in a hurry.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 26 Jun 2014 02:57

fanne wrote:Nilesh Oak ji, I will give you the details from Ram Charitra Manas and Valmiki Ramayan (better, I will post a link, need time). But to my recollection, the story goes like this - Ahalya was created by Brahma (and had un-paralleled beauty). He gave her to Gautam muni to raise her, who did with all care. When she grew up, Brahma was pleased by Gautama muni devotion and gave Ahalya as his wife. Ahalya lived like a hermit, and she was said to be the most beautiful women in creation. Indra, saw and lusted for her. One day While Gautama muni was out, he changed himself into Gautama Rishi, and did the unthinkable (from the lord of Demigod to one of Saptrish's wife). While they were coming out of the hut, Gautam Rishi also came and saw and understood what has happened. He cursed both, Ahalya turning stone to be freed by God himself, while Indra has 1000s of Vag*na all over his body.
Where the various texts differ - did Ahalya knew? Was she stone or invisible etc etc.

Fanne Ji,

Thank you.

(You are correct on key areas of differences....) TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2014 04:48

fanne wrote:Nilesh Oak ji, I will give you the details from Ram Charitra Manas and Valmiki Ramayan (better, I will post a link, need time). But to my recollection, the story goes like this - Ahalya was created by Brahma (and had un-paralleled beauty). He gave her to Gautam muni to raise her, who did with all care. When she grew up, Brahma was pleased by Gautama muni devotion and gave Ahalya as his wife. Ahalya lived like a hermit, and she was said to be the most beautiful women in creation. Indra, saw and lusted for her. One day While Gautama muni was out, he changed himself into Gautama Rishi, and did the unthinkable (from the lord of Demigod to one of Saptrish's wife). While they were coming out of the hut, Gautam Rishi also came and saw and understood what has happened. He cursed both, Ahalya turning stone to be freed by God himself, while Indra has 1000s of Vag*na all over his body.
Where the various texts differ - did Ahalya knew? Was she stone or invisible etc etc.



Coincidentally heard MC Sastry discourse on Ramayanam today. He talks about the very episode in part 2 of his discourse.
His narration is similar to yours except he says Indra 'tests/pariksha" humans. Yet depite know ing he was Indra, Ahalya had desired him for a moment and Gautama curses both. He also says that Ahalya will regain her human form after sahsra varasha ie 1000 years when Rama's touches the stone. When that miracel happens, Gautama arrives and both leave together.
On the onward journey to Mithila, Vishwamitra meet Shatananda, son of Gautama who asks if Ahlaya got liberated from the curse. And gets an affirmative answer.


------------------------

I wondered about the 1000 years and the son being there in Janaka's court.

Somewhere MCS says ayush is 100 years in Kali, 200 yrs in Dwapara and 400 yrs in Treta.
We might have to take the time scale into consideration.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2014 04:52

Nilesh, The Wiki has extensive footnotes and refs to various versions of the Ahalya's shapam and liberation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahalya

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby niran » 26 Jun 2014 08:45

fanne wrote:<snip>
I have another question for learned guru - I understand that Krishna helps Indra's son Arjun in war against Sun son Karna (where he did opposite in Ramayna, Helping Sugriva (Sun's son) and Killing Bali (Indra's sun). During Ramayana, Hanjuman Ji is his greatest devotee, and is mentioned much more than Sugriva. Why in Mahabharat, he does not have the same importance as Arjuna? Why did Lord showed Vishwaroopa to Arjuna and not to Bhima. He was more pious than Arjuna, more brave (Kichaka vadh, killed more kaurav sena and while going to heaven, died after Arjuna, sequence being that more sinner died before). Vayu avtaras are mysterious - Hanumana, Bhima and later Madhavacharya? Are we sure Vayu is air and not some deeper meaning?

Bhim IMVHO was a true Devotee just like Lord Hanuman
e.g. when Lord Krishna orders Bhim to kill the elephant named Aswasthama and go tell that to Guru Drona all others began
their Dharma aDhrama diss and cussing while Bhim says "yes saar,right away saar" and acted accordingly.
to Bhim Lord was supreme and and Bhim was devoted to him so Bhim did not need any Viswaroopam darshan same as Lord Hanuman never needs any Viswaroopam darshan Lord resides inside them.

me is no Guru BTW. :mrgreen:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 26 Jun 2014 17:28

fanne wrote:
Where the various texts differ - did Ahalya knew? Was she stone or invisible etc etc.


Ganesh Purana which I read when I was awaiting my SSC results, states Ahilya did not know initially but towards the end of the coitus she knew it was not her husband.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 26 Jun 2014 22:42

I am seeing TV Serial Mahabharat (maybe NDTV verison, not sure). There is a version, after Guru Drona is killed, Aswathama unleashes Narayanastra. That starts killing Pandav forces. Lord suggest that only way to get around Narayanaastra is to pay obesience to it, drop weapon. In that Bhima refuses Lord request (not sure how true the story is, TV serials have taken liberty with the original version. Are there more versions of Bhima disobeying Krishna?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2014 23:08

Fanne, That episode is in the Vyasa Bharatam.

Meanwhile here is a more detailed version of [url=xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/23451465/.../name/small+roles+part3.pdf]Ahalya[/ur]

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Sridhar K » 26 Jun 2014 23:25

On Bhima being a Gnani, one version I heard (perhaps from the Madhavacharya sources) was that Arjuna despite getting upadesam from Bhagavan Krishna took another birth as a cow to get proper gnana from Madhavacharya (who is considered as the reincarnation of Vayu/Bhima)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 01 Jul 2014 20:19

UlanBatori wrote:Request from Mongolia is how to explain:
1. What r ur Core Beliefs?
2. What is the hierarchy of literature relevant to ur core beliefs?


Interestingly yesterday I had a nice situation that is relevant to this question.

Background story (Inquiry):

MIL is visiting us & she doesn't know English. Somewhere in our library she found a Vernacular translation of Kabala and started reading it out of boredom. As she read it, she started telling us how silly it sounds. She thought it is silly for someone to treat their guests with all they have even when it takes away whatever little one has. She found all these kabalic-virtues as stupid because she believed in self-preservation and self-accumulation; especially when one is poor. As she read further she came across the atrocities/genocides committed by Jews and she proudly proclaimed that it proves their guilt.

She didnt believe me when I told her that all Abrahamic faiths have same origins and Christianity and Islam are nothing but further evolution of the same foundational values - expolitation, colonization and materialism in the name of god.

So I asked her if she read Quran. She said Quran is available only in Arabic. I explained her it is translated in many languages and ordered a copy of Vernacular Quran for her. Now she started reading it and told SHQ that I am right after all and Quran is no different from Kabala in its foundational values.

So she asked SHQ what is she and the answer was Hindu. What is our elder son, answer Hindu. So MIL asked SHQ what did she do to become a Hindu? What did the boy did to become a Hindu? What does it take to become a Hindu?

Naturally SHQ came to me and asked the same question; What does it take to become a Hindu?


My answer was this. There are three basic principles to become a Hindu.

1. Take responsibility for your actions. Every action/karma will bring results. There is no escape for anyone when the karma is done with 'ego (Iness)' consciousness. It doesn't matter who you are and what you are, you have to accept the results of your karma/action (good or bad). And there is no way of hiding behind scriptures. One will go thru cycles of life-and-death as long as this 'ego-centric karma' continues. This cycle ends only when one conquers ego and raises one's consciousness above 'ego'. This is cycle of rebirth. Even gods cannot escape their Karma if they have done it with 'ego' (ex: Saraswati/Lakshmi/Parvati Vs Anasuya).

2. There is nothing separate from God consciousness. God consciousness exists in every living/non-living being. There is no God separate from you. The only thing that separates one from God is the 'ego/Iness'. Everything we see around us is filled with same God-consciousness. God-consciousness is the only thing that is infinite and beyond life-death-cycle. God is embodiment of Dharma. This is this God-consciousness that comes to deliver Dharma in human/Life form (unlike acts of nature) under extreme situations, which is called Avatar.

3. In your life activities, follow Dharma. Dharma is the divine-rule-system that ensures above 2 points are honored. Know that if any of your actions are going against above 2 points, then it is Adharma. Dharma is the universal memory that remembers every action and ensures that the result is delivered to you, irrespective of your life, position, place and time. Even when you get into situations you have to resort to Apaddharma, remember Rule-1 and be prepared to accept the result (Ex: Mandavya Muni story).

So what is the hierarchy of literature one should read? I strongly recommend the following order.

Phase 1: Ramayana, Mahabharata and Krishna Bhagavatam (in Sanskrit or mother tongue. If you want to read English version, read a version written by Hindu swamijis). Prepares the seeker to be a good Hindu citizen and appreciate varna-Ashrama dharma.

Phase 2: Puranas (all 18 of them) Prepares the seeker to understand the connection between multiple lives, concept of Vedic time, Different elements/adhistanadevas and mantras etc

Phase 3: Adi Sankaracharya's Purushartha Nischayam, Viveka Chudamani and Sadhana Panchakam. Prepares the seeker to determine what their (current) life objective is and what is the process it takes to learn Vedas

Phase 4: Adi Sankara's commentary on Upanishads.Gives an introduction of the goal/objective.

Phase 5: Practice Ashtanga Yoga (not just postures, but Pranayama, Dharana, Pratyahara as well).Gives the seeker necessary Antahkarana Shuddhi, concentration/focus and detachment.

Phase 6: Try to learn/understand/analyze Vedas under the guidance of a traditional guru.Teaches the ultimate/absolute knowledge and the tools to decipher/utilize different aspects of that knowledge.
Last edited by RamaY on 02 Jul 2014 06:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 02 Jul 2014 06:19

On BhagavatGita:

Over years I have read/browsed many commentaries on BG. Many just try to explain the meaning of the slokas but lack in Vedic commentary/Bhasya (the connection with Vedas).

I came across two references that connected BG with Vedas.

First one is a telugu book by Sri Krishnandashrama Gita Prachara Sangha (definitely 20yrs old publication). They called the book Srimat Bhagavadgito'panishat!

Second one is (again Telugu) speeches by Sri Sundara Chaitanyananda. For almost every sloka of BG, he would refer a mantra from one or the other Upanishat with exactly the same meaning.

This convinced me that BG, if read/understood correctly, is nothing but essence of all Upanishats put together and a concise Veda itself. No wonder Arjuna got realization just by listening to it. Like Vedas, BG too connects Karma-Bhakti-Jnana-Vibhuti Yogas.

To think BG is meant to read when someone is dead is plain stupid and ignorance.

Even Upanishats are said to be read during annual death ceremony (ex: Kathopanishat) because we will be in a somber mood at that time and are already mentally connected with the life between lives (our lives and pitr-Devas) so have required temperament to contemplate Upanishats.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Jul 2014 08:13

This convinced me that BG, if read/understood correctly, is nothing but essence of all Upanishats put together and a concise Veda itself. No wonder Arjuna got realization just by listening to it. Like Vedas, BG too connects Karma-Bhakti-Jnana-Vibhuti Yogas.


That is my take too, of course I have not read anything beyond the first couple of Rks of the Rg Veda, Mandalam 6, and those made noooo sense to me. Didn't look like anything I had seen in my very limited Samskrtam (which is not the case when I try to read BG, where I can understand bits and pieces).

This is why I have a problem with ppl saying no no no no no yaar, for everything, claiming super expertise. The whole of SD is about seeing Unity among things, not splitting hairs and killing each other. The moment Hindus forgot this, the community went into decline, and this continues to be "our" worst vulnerability.

My literature hierarchy (not order in which one should try reading, which would be inverted) is
Rg Veda at the top
Vedanta of Rg Veda
Then other Vedas and their Vedantas

Then far below, the Puranas, and among them, mainly the Ramayana and MB, and in the MB, the BG is tops.

At that point I would ask the student to stop, and do a Fast Forward to Gautama Buddha and Mahavira for different takes on the Rg Vedic lesson of ParamAtman.

Then Adi Sankara.

Then Madhavacharya, who dissed Advaita and brought in Dwaita - opening the door to worship and the exquisite Search For Excellence in the name of the Almighty. This is what gives one a better appreciation of the Hindu worship of "many deities" and sees why that makes eminent sense despite the fundamental belief of Unity.
Then to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, but just to see how far Hindus tried to bend over backwards to accommodate the Other Religions.
Then Vivekananda
Then Rabindranath Tagore, Gitanjali.

Then Arya Samaj, again trying to reset to Rg Veda.
Then much more recent Gurus such as Narayana Guru who went back to Advaita to try and break caste obscenities in Kerala.
Then PrabuPada and the Hare Krsna Movement, who win my admiration because they went really "in the faces" of the Conversionists and won, through law-abiding, utterly peaceful means. Think about that, it's truly awesome, these guys are even growing in places like Vladivostok where the locals are maybe slightly removed from cannibalism. And in the Deep South of the US.

These give the student a good taste of the diversity of SD. "Ekam Sat, virprah: bahado vadanti" in action. If one can come away from that without taking sides or criticizing/dissing any of these Gurus, one has maybe learned something.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Jul 2014 08:14

BTW, this thread is a treasure. Thanks to RamaY for guiding me here! Much for me to learn and steal....

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 02 Jul 2014 17:22

Batori-mahasaya,

Welcome to this thread. Just few points.

1/ Adisankara's Advaita isn't against personal Gods or Bhakti. In fact Adi Sankara himself wrote many beautiful stuti/Stotrams. Please make sure your students don't mix/confuse the pursuit of Atmajnana/Moksha with Gods/Bhakti.

2/ IMHO millions of Gods in Hinduism represent the limitation/preference of the seekers' spiritual perception. Like point25 in the link ShauryaT garu gave (http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ohrr/ch01.htm) says. Your Ishta devata is representation of your preference/liking not the limitation of the God-consciousness. Its like the field of study we chose in the universe of knowledge and it is representative of our interest and not the knowledge itself.

3/ IMHO various spiritual/philosophical aspects of Hinduism that came between 200BC-2000AD are socio-spiritual responses of Hinduism in the backdrop of triple-colonization (Charvaka-Abrahamic-Secular). Despite of major differences in overall structures of their philosophies, all these systems work within Vedas.

4/ Caste is a social structure, which truly comes in Grihastha Ashrama (Brahmacharya, vanaprastha and samnyasa have nothing to do with caste) only. Chaturvarnas come only during Brahmacharya (temperament) and Grihastha (career, social role). We had long debates on this topic in this and off-topic threads. I can point some of the posts if you like.

5/ Ekam Sat, Vipra Bahudha Vadanti is right. But, but please make sure you give Vedic definition of Viprah to your students first.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 02 Jul 2014 20:04

Batori-mahasaya,

I think the following books can be used as structured text books for your students

1. The Vedas by Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati - Bhavan's book university
2. Hindu Dharma, the universal way of life by Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati - Bhavan's book university

To give a taste of science in Vedas
3. Krishi Mandala in Rgveda - Bhavan's book university

will add more... as I search thru my library.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 05 Jul 2014 22:11

The western science tries to understand the universe around it from a human-sense perspective. That is why it becomes a 'materialistic' pursuit because anything that comes of such a scientific enquiry always ends up in extending human (as a species) control over rest of life/non-life environments. No wonder it gets translated as "progress/development" for all humans who are bought-into this human-centric worldview. The Abrahamism & Western-Universalism are nothing but spiritual & political constructs that explain this world-view.

On the other hand the Vedic knowledge talks about the true/absolute nature of this universe. Every aspect in this nature has an absolute self, which is called the 'Adhistanadevata" of that aspect. One who perceives (which can be done by intellect only and not any senses) this absolute aspect of a given aspect is called Rishi (Drashta) or Siddha (one who got Siddhi) for he can use this absolute element in different universal dimensions (some in human-sense perception & some aren't). For example, take fire. It has many overt/covert characteristics depending on the residing element (wood/petrol/cow-dung etc), medium of transmission (metal/wood/air etc) and observing instrument (human eye/skin sense/thermal camera etc). But fire on its own has an absolute existence, which is called Agni (Deva).

However, recent developments in scientific fields are identifying various non-human instruments/senses (thermal, visible, x-Ray, gamma-ray cameras etc) and exposing the western scientists to other dimensions of the universal consciousness. If we take look at the sky in the night the universe appears different ways based on the instrument used. The real/absolute existence of universe is culmination of all these known (Vyakta) and unknown (Avyakta) dimensions. That is the absolute/true being of that universe; not just the physical planets, stars, galaxies and their clusters or just the energy fields (E=MC^2).

Thus "the limit of f of SCIENCE as senses approaches intellect, is VEDAS".

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2014 09:29

The Nagas or serpents come to the fore in Mahabharata but not mentioned in Ramayana. By same token the rakshasas are a spent force by the MB time.
Is there a message here of fear of the grotesque?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby kmkraoind » 07 Jul 2014 12:28

RamaY garu. Some say, one should read "Garuda Purana" in a house only during 11-days of mourning period (after a death happens). How much is truth in it and what is logic behind it. Is it just to avoid vairaagyam or any other reason. TIA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby member_28397 » 07 Jul 2014 13:16

fanne wrote:Ramana SIr,
I have another question for learned guru - I understand that Krishna helps Indra's son Arjun in war against Sun son Karna (where he did opposite in Ramayna, Helping Sugriva (Sun's son) and Killing Bali (Indra's sun). During Ramayana, Hanjuman Ji is his greatest devotee, and is mentioned much more than Sugriva. Why in Mahabharat, he does not have the same importance as Arjuna? Why did Lord showed Vishwaroopa to Arjuna and not to Bhima. He was more pious than Arjuna, more brave (Kichaka vadh, killed more kaurav sena and while going to heaven, died after Arjuna, sequence being that more sinner died before). Vayu avtaras are mysterious - Hanumana, Bhima and later Madhavacharya? Are we sure Vayu is air and not some deeper meaning?


because muni Nara is Arjun and Narayana is Lord Krishna.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2014 16:18

fanne wrote:Ramana SIr,
Are you sure that the Lord shows Vishwaroopa 4 or 6 times. In Duryodhana Rajya Sabha (where he went as a shanti doot), he merely showed his viraat rupa (i.e. big body). The context is that Duryodhana wants to ties him and once he becomes big, he does not have enough rope. With Yashodha Mata, there is no Vishwaroopa, When scolded by her for eating mud as a kid and asked to open his mouth to show the mud, she sees universes in his mouth (no Vishwaroopa). I think Vishwaroopa happens only once - during Gita.
I have another question for learned guru - I understand that Krishna helps Indra's son Arjun in war against Sun son Karna (where he did opposite in Ramayna, Helping Sugriva (Sun's son) and Killing Bali (Indra's sun). During Ramayana, Hanjuman Ji is his greatest devotee, and is mentioned much more than Sugriva. Why in Mahabharat, he does not have the same importance as Arjuna? Why did Lord showed Vishwaroopa to Arjuna and not to Bhima. He was more pious than Arjuna, more brave (Kichaka vadh, killed more kaurav sena and while going to heaven, died after Arjuna, sequence being that more sinner died before). Vayu avtaras are mysterious - Hanumana, Bhima and later Madhavacharya? Are we sure Vayu is air and not some deeper meaning?


Just an attempt:

Avatara is nothing but personification of universal consciousness a.k.a Dharma to ensure the fruits of one's action are delivered in the manner that is required. In all those examples you sighted the Avatara stood by dharma, be it son of Indra/Surya/Vayu; without any favoritism.

I bring this example of Sati Anasuya. The Telugu movie with the same name has an interesting statement by Shiva (character). Narada comes to Kailasa and says Anasuya is the best Pativrata in the world and it irks Parvati. She says how can there be any better Pativrata than her, who is half of Shiva? And the ensuing story happens. When asked by Narada about the consequences, Shiva smiles and says "Ego must be defeated, wherever/whoever it is".

In order to receive BhagavadGita/Atma-Jnana one needs to be an Adhikari/qualified. This wasnt a question on dharma/Adharma, heavens etc., in his vairagya Arjuna (like Buddha) asked SriKrishna for Jnana and it was given; nothing else. One has to be a Mumukshu (Want only Moksha/liberation from both right/wrong, bliss/sorrow etc)

Bhima, on the other-hand was a great Bhakta, warrior and so on... But he never sought Moksha nor Jnana. He just wanted to avenge the Adharma done to 'him/ego-conscious'.

JMHT.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby rkirankr » 07 Jul 2014 17:42

RamaY wrote:
Just an attempt:

Avatara is nothing but personification of universal consciousness a.k.a Dharma to ensure the fruits of one's action are delivered in the manner that is required. In all those examples you sighted the Avatara stood by dharma, be it son of Indra/Surya/Vayu; without any favoritism.

I bring this example of Sati Anasuya. The Telugu movie with the same name has an interesting statement by Shiva (character). Narada comes to Kailasa and says Anasuya is the best Pativrata in the world and it irks Parvati. She says how can there be any better Pativrata than her, who is half of Shiva? And the ensuing story happens. When asked by Narada about the consequences, Shiva smiles and says "Ego must be defeated, wherever/whoever it is".

In order to receive BhagavadGita/Atma-Jnana one needs to be an Adhikari/qualified. This wasnt a question on dharma/Adharma, heavens etc., in his vairagya Arjuna (like Buddha) asked SriKrishna for Jnana and it was given; nothing else. One has to be a Mumukshu (Want only Moksha/liberation from both right/wrong, bliss/sorrow etc)

Bhima, on the other-hand was a great Bhakta, warrior and so on... But he never sought Moksha nor Jnana. He just wanted to avenge the Adharma done to 'him/ego-conscious'.

JMHT.

Bhima was supposed to be already a Jnani and was not driven only by Adharma. In fact, when Krishna went for Sandhi with Duryodhana, Bhima is supposed to have urged Krishna to try all means to have a just settlement without bloodshed. JMHT too

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 07 Jul 2014 23:03

Ramay Sir,
What you write has profound implication. You mean, I may be a sinner, and a murkha, not even possessing great lineage but from my heart, if I pray to Lord for something profound (like Vishwaroopa), he may fulfill my desire over say a priest, who is pious, great and is in Lord's seva 24/7?
Can the lord be reached by anyone, without the merit or the Karma of the said person?
TIA
fanne

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2014 23:10

fanne wrote:Ramay Sir,
What you write has profound implication. You mean, I may be a sinner, and a murkha, not even possessing great lineage but from my heart, if I pray to Lord for something profound (like Vishwaroopa), he may fulfill my desire over say a priest, who is pious, great and is in Lord's seva 24/7?
Can the lord be reached by anyone, without the merit or the Karma of the said person?
TIA
fanne


Yep. The Promise of SD is that you can get Moksha as you are, where you are, instantaneously.

That doesn't mean you can/will escape your karma :P You just aren't attached to it. That's the difference.

I will give a contemporary example of Sri Ramana Maharshi. He was God-realized long time back; yet was alive for many years. He even had some terminal illness. But He/Atman wasn't attached to those karmas/phalas anymore.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2014 23:17

fanne, The Bhagvatam has the story of the impious sinner who attains moksha for calling out his son's named Narayana.

What you ask is the basis of the bhakti yoga vs karma yoga (doing rituals and Lord's seva 24/7).

From a pravachanam guru in Telugu.

----
Purpose of human life is to attain mokhsa.
The way to attain mokhsa is yoga or path or way.
There are three paths: karma, bhakti and gnana.
Each of these paths has a guru and main book.
Jaimini wrote the karma kanda book and it has been commented on by Kumarila and Adi Sankara
Bhakti yoga was propounded by Narada muni as Narada bhakti sutras.
Gnana Yoga I forget but has a guru and a book Brhama Sutras.
Patanjali Yoga Sashtra is warp up of all three ways and summarizes them. Some call it dhyana yoga.

Some where in BG Krishna says that karma and gnana are difficult paths and filter out a lot of followers.
The implication is bhakti marga is optimum for grihastyas.
All this is my recollection and mistakes are all mine.
--

On my side I have MS Subbalakshmi's reciting of Vishnu Sashranamam on ny phone and hear I while driving to work and repeat the Rama mantram at the end along with her.

Thats all I can do this life and do. Next life will learn Sanskrit from young age.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby gandharva » 07 Jul 2014 23:17

fanne wrote:Ramay Sir,
What you write has profound implication. You mean, I may be a sinner, and a murkha, not even possessing great lineage but from my heart, if I pray to Lord for something profound (like Vishwaroopa), he may fulfill my desire over say a priest, who is pious, great and is in Lord's seva 24/7?
Can the lord be reached by anyone, without the merit or the Karma of the said person?
TIA
fanne


Glory Part:

एक अनीह अरूप अनामा। अज सच्चिदानंद पर धामा॥
ब्यापक बिस्वरूप भगवाना। तेहिं धरि देह चरित कृत नाना॥
सो केवल भगतन हित लागी। परम कृपाल प्रनत अनुरागी॥
जेहि जन पर ममता अति छोहू। जेहिं करुना करि कीन्ह न कोहू॥
गई बहोर गरीब नेवाजू। सरल सबल साहिब रघुराजू॥

रहति न प्रभु चित चूक किए की। करत सुरति सय बार हिए की॥
जेहिं अघ बधेउ ब्याध जिमि बाली। फिरि सुकंठ सोइ कीन्ह कुचाली॥
सोइ करतूति बिभीषन केरी। सपनेहुँ सो न राम हियँ हेरी॥
ते भरतहि भेंटत सनमाने। राजसभाँ रघुबीर बखाने॥

Practice Part:

दोहा- राम नाम मनिदीप धरु जीह देहरी द्वार।
तुलसी भीतर बाहेरहुँ जौं चाहसि उजिआर॥२१॥

नाम जीहँ जपि जागहिं जोगी। बिरति बिरंचि प्रपंच बियोगी॥
ब्रह्मसुखहि अनुभवहिं अनूपा। अकथ अनामय नाम न रूपा॥
जाना चहहिं गूढ़ गति जेऊ। नाम जीहँ जपि जानहिं तेऊ॥
साधक नाम जपहिं लय लाएँ। होहिं सिद्ध अनिमादिक पाएँ॥
जपहिं नामु जन आरत भारी। मिटहिं कुसंकट होहिं सुखारी॥
राम भगत जग चारि प्रकारा। सुकृती चारिउ अनघ उदारा॥
चहू चतुर कहुँ नाम अधारा। ग्यानी प्रभुहि बिसेषि पिआरा॥
चहुँ जुग चहुँ श्रुति ना प्रभाऊ। कलि बिसेषि नहिं आन उपाऊ॥

दोहा- सकल कामना हीन जे राम भगति रस लीन।
नाम सुप्रेम पियूष हद तिन्हहुँ किए मन मीन॥२२॥

अगुन सगुन दुइ ब्रह्म सरूपा। अकथ अगाध अनादि अनूपा॥
मोरें मत बड़ नामु दुहू तें। किए जेहिं जुग निज बस निज बूतें॥
प्रोढ़ि सुजन जनि जानहिं जन की। कहउँ प्रतीति प्रीति रुचि मन की॥
एकु दारुगत देखिअ एकू। पावक सम जुग ब्रह्म बिबेकू॥
उभय अगम जुग सुगम नाम तें। कहेउँ नामु बड़ ब्रह्म राम तें॥
ब्यापकु एकु ब्रह्म अबिनासी। सत चेतन धन आनँद रासी॥
अस प्रभु हृदयँ अछत अबिकारी। सकल जीव जग दीन दुखारी॥
नाम निरूपन नाम जतन तें। सोउ प्रगटत जिमि मोल रतन तें॥

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 08 Jul 2014 07:40

RamaY, Ramana Sir and Gandharva (Are you Sushupti?), thanks!!
My braj is not that great. Can you tell me the chapter and the numbering, I will look up the hindi meaning!!
Thanks!!
fanne
Ps - So when lord shows up during meditation, may not be my illusion after all, for I don't have to be perfect to call him. I have felt him many times, but dismissed as my wish/delusion mainly because I do not count myself worthy of his grace!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 08 Jul 2014 08:10

fanne wrote:Ps - So when lord shows up during meditation, may not be my illusion after all, for I don't have to be perfect to call him. I have felt him many times, but dismissed as my wish/delusion mainly because I do not count myself worthy of his grace!!

I would put it slightly differently if it makes you feel any better. Please note that I am a fellow traveler and I don't claim to be an authority. This is strictly JMHT only and all the disclaimers apply.

1/ There is no way action/karma can be nullified. It will give the results it is supposed to.
2/ As a person with ego/Iness, we attach ourselves to the Karma as well as the results and feel good/bad about it.
3/ SD promises that every one of us can get moksha as we are with all our faults and imperfections. Because (a) that is our Sat/True Swaroopa/self and we cannot be anything else. And (b) Getting moksha doesn't undo your karma (it is you freeing yourself from the karma/results). Its like you freeing yourself from poverty while poverty exists all around you.

We all get glimpses of the Param within/around us when we go into deep prayer/meditation.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Sridhar K » 08 Jul 2014 08:48

fanneji
two cents from a fellow laugigi. As other have mentioned, as per the Bhakthi marga anybody can attain moksha/mukthi irrespective of their current state as long as they are in attuned to the devotional service of the lord. However, being a bakth does not mean that God will absolve out his/her karma but will guide the devotee in managing the fruits of ones action. As long as one carries their karma, he or she is supposed to be in the cycle of births and deaths. Bhakthi will help in managing the karma i.e. dispose of existing karma and help prevent accumulating new karma as the jeeva goes in its journey within and across births. Or in simple words, one can get closer to the lord irrespective of their karma they currently carry. I try my best to read a chapter daily from the mini Bhagavad Gita book that was gifted to me.

http://nightingale.co.in/vedic-cosmos/mini-bhagavad-gita.
This version is simple translation of the slokhas in Tamil, English and to the point without any commentaries. It does answer a lot of questions each time I read it.

On Hanuman vs Bhima, there is another speciality to Hanuman.Apart from being a Vayu amsa, he is also considered as an amsa of lord Shiva unlike Bhima who is considered just a vayu amsa.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 08 Jul 2014 18:02

JE Menon wrote:Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?


Good question!

Like I mentioned before, I was reading a Tantra book and it gave the mantra for Agneyastra as a reverse order of a well known mantra. Assuming this is correct, we can deduce that some of the mantras can be reversed to get some hidden formulas/mantras.

But I do not think it is a simple reversing of sounds in this case but a certain set of chemicals/equations symbolized in Bijaksharas that are set in certain order to give a poetic meaning in different planes (historical, praise to gods and spiritual).

Please note that each Bijakshara/Mantraakshara has a different symbolic meaning in Chemical, Spiritual, Process, Intellectual etc planes. So the seeker need to know which meaning to take for what in a given equation. For example Bijakshara for Agni/Fire is Ram. The seeker need to figure out if he need to add the chemical compound that represents Ram, or to heat the existing chemical component and for how long or need to do meditate on Manipura chakra to get the private key for that mantra and so on...

Imagine you came across a mantra नशिय​वाम: Since meaning in sanskrutam is determined by splitting the word we can have many combinations
1/ Na + Si + Ya + Vaa + Ma:
2/ NaSi + Ya + Vaa + Ma:
...
...
72,786/ NaSi + Ya + VaaMa:
72,787/ Na + Si + YaVaaMa:

Since you proposed that some/all of this mantra can be reversed then the permutations become even more. One of the combinations bring you to the mantra NaMa:SiVaaYa. meaning 'salutations to Siva' as used by Dwaita/Bhakti marga; another meaning being 'Siva is you (I am not)'; another meaning being 'Salutations to the auspecious'; and if you are a siddha yogi, Siva means some chemical and in that mantra you may want to separate/remove that chemical from that equation and so on...

Now we don't know how long a mantra can be. If entire Vedas is a single wave function then we are dharmically screwed.

An individual can try to find all these permutations and combinations using brute computational power combined with a Sanskrit+Siddha+Chemical+Bijamantra dictionaries OR simply go to a siddha guru and seek the public key from the Guru (gives the mantra). Which part of the Mantra refers to what chemical, symbol etc can be learned from the Guru in some cases.

But when the prize is bigger then the private key is available in the universal consciousness. For that one needs to do deep/focussed research a.k.a Tapas. And the key becomes visible in your buddhi/intellect.

Now imagine you figured out all this after lot of study/research/penance. Would you feel like giving it for every 2-bit wanna-prove-Yinduism-wright/rong guy or you protect your IPR and laugh at the guy? What would America do in that situation?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby JE Menon » 08 Jul 2014 18:22

I'm not saying anything about reversing... just asking if re-ordering is possible, if it has been done, whether that will affect the sound content, and whether the present order has utility of some kind.

You seem to be describing attributes of the current order, i.e. the last part of above. Although the description is not clear to me, basically the "key becomes visible in your buddhi" is rather mysterious. Plus you seem to be ascribing meaning to the sounds, which supposedly don't have meaning...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 08 Jul 2014 18:44

JEM garu,

Reordering seem to be possible and has been done per some sources as mentioned above. But where/what cant be guessed but had to be learned from Guru-Parampara.

What I think is there are two keys as described here: viewtopic.php?p=1669348#p1669348

There is no mystery here. Works same way in modern science as well. For example: No one can make C3 by reading things like this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_explosive One has to learn the underlying Chemical compounds, their symbols, interactions, equilibrium, engineering etc. Even then, not all Chemistry Phds can make C3 (or new types of it) because knowledge != Buddhi. Even science doesnt guarantee that every Phd has same skills/knowledge/success in a given field. Thats what I am calling Buddhi.

I humbly recommend every poster who is active on these threads to do some Pranayama, Meditation and reading of Hindu texts. One by one things will get clear. I see lot of discussion without doing the basic research/investment in these fields. Given the knowledge/temperament of senior posters on the forum, they will understand what I am saying if they do 54 sun salutations per day (30mins/day), 15-20 mins of Pranayama (Kapalabhati, Anuloma-Viloma etc), 15-20mins of Meditation for 45 days and 200-300 hrs of study of Hindu texts. A total of 300-400 hours of investment in Hindu knowledge; hardly 5-10% time they spent on learning Western/Secular non-scientific education over the years.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby fanne » 08 Jul 2014 19:32

Ulan Batori Saheb,
I am no authority, but to answer your question on what is Hindu/Sanathan Dharma, let me link a video. (I recommend to see the whole thing, but 4th and 5th episode, goes into Veda and specifically what is the pillar - In short this is what it is - We are divine, eternal beings, perfect in every way!! This is our true nature. This body, mind and ego (manah, budhi , ahankara) to which we identify ourselves, is at best an illusory self. Goal is to identify that true self, (and for that, you do not have to learn anything, in fact you have to unlearn, easiest for me has been to surrender, let the Lord take me where he wants me to take me and I think it is working). Also, I don't see any contradiction with Advaitvad. I will attach another video, Shivoham Shivoham, it explains advaitvad and sanathan dharma in few stanzas. The translation in theat you tube is of course not perfect and if I may, superficial, but good enough to guide you.

Sourceof Dharma
Full Episode 5 - Veda - The Source of Dharma1 - Darashikoh 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxSBrjO86Hw
Full Episode 5 - Veda - The Source of Dharma1 - Darashikoh 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrK6qON-RfU

Ps -Do not get caught in the story

Shivoham - Who are you? Adi Shankracharya answers it for himself who is he, in fact that answer applies to all of us -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pLjr8Zp5gs

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby johneeG » 09 Jul 2014 21:59

JE Menon wrote:Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?


Very interesting thought, saar. This can almost be a phd project. But, I think it would go completely off-topic on OIT thread.

However, this sounds like a very interesting idea. I don't know about Vaidhik Manthras, but it seems that certain Manthras are reordered. For example, Panchadhashi Manthra of Goddess has various variations. Basically, the letters are same, but they are arranged in different orders. The tradition says that only one variation is extant for the humans right now.

It would be interesting to measure resonance(vibration), temperature, chemical changes, physical changes, ...etc before and after chanting these Manthras. It would be a very interesting project.

The first step is to start with the basics (This is a vast and complex topic and I am myself learning as I go along, so please bear with me):

The basics are of course the letters(alphabets). There are 54 alphabets. 50 are regular alphabets, and there are 3 pranavas (thra, shra, gnya). There is special lla. All these together make 54. Notice that 54 is half of 108. This is not a coincident but deliberate design. Basically, if one reads the Alphabets from start to finish and again in a reverse order, it will be 108. The idea is that this in itself is equal to chanting a Manthra.

All this is to say that the roots of the Manthras(or all words) are alphabets. The idea seems to be that each alphabet represents an energy.

There are 16 Vowels and rest(38) are consonants. Each consonant can combine with a vowel and acquire 16 variations. That means 38*16 = 608 consonant sounds are possible. Vowels can also be placed at the beginning of the word.

Now, there are various types of meters or chandas that are used.
wiki wrote:The verses of the Vedas have a variety of different meters. They are grouped by the number of padas in a verse, and by the number of syllables in a pada. Chandas (छन्दः), the study of Vedic meter, is one of the six Vedanga disciplines, or "organs of the vedas".

There are several Chandas. The seven main ones are:

Gayatri: 3 padas of 8 syllables containing 24 syllables in each stanza.
Ushnuk : 4 padas of 7 syllables containing 28 syllables in each stanza.
Anustubh: 4 padas of 8 syllables containing 32 syllables in each stanza. This is the typical shloka of classical Sanskrit poetry
Brihati : 4 padas (8 + 8 + 12 + 8) containing 36 syllables in each stanza.
Pankti : 4 padas (sometimes 5 padas) containing 40 syllables in each stanza.
Tristubh: 4 padas of 11 syllables containing 44 syllabes in each stanza
Jagati: 4 padas of 12 syllables containing 48 syllables in each stanza

There are several others such as:

Virāj: 4 padas of 10 syllables
Kakubh
Vasanta-Tilaka (you can find real example here)
Shardula-vikridita
Arya
Malini
Stragdhara
Bhujangprayat


wiki wrote:A well-known quantitative scheme in the traditional literature classifies the common meters according to the syllable count of a stanza, as multiples of 4: thus, dvipadā virāj (20), gāyatrī (24), uṣṇih (28), anuṣṭubh (32), bṛhatī (36), pańkti (40), triṣṭubh (44), and jagatī (48). This scheme omits the original virāj entirely (with 33 syllables) and fails to account for structural variations within the same total syllable count, such as the 28 syllables of the kākubh (8+12+8) versus the uṣṇih (8+8+12), or the 40 of the later virāj (4x10) versus the pańkti (5x8). More comprehensive schemes in the traditional literature have been mainly terminological, each distinct type of stanza carrying its own name. The classification is exhaustive rather than analytic: every variant actually found in the received text has been named without regard to any need for metrical restoration.


Wiki Link

For example, Gayathri chandhas has 24 syllables in 4 paadhas(lines). So, each line will contain 8 syllables. Each syllable could be one of the 608 variations of consonants. If it is the beginning of the word, then 608+38(vowels) = 646 possibilities. This is the possibilities in just Gayathri chandhas. There seem to be about 15/16 Chandhas types that are generally used.

I am very weak with permutations and combinations, so please help me out on this about all the various permutations and combinations that are possible. 608 * 15 = 9120. So, around 10,000 permutations seem to be possible.

Similar alphabets(or energies) can be grouped together to form a category.
For example, there is one particular grouping based on 8 Vagdhevis(or Goddesses of Speech):

Image

Vashini = control
Kaameshwari = Desire
Modhini = Happy
Vimala = Clean
Aruna = Red
Jayini = Victorious
Sarveshwari = Absolute Lordship
Kaulini = ?

Basically, this is to convey that alphabets which are called Vashini have the ability to control. This is one type of grouping.

There seems to be another type of grouping:
Image
This above grouping is based on Kundalini Chakras. Each chakra seems to be associated with certain elements of the body and it is also simultaneously associated with certain letters. So, that means that those letters are associated with those elements of the body.
Agnya (located in the forehead between the eyebrows) -> connected to lymph/marrow/fat
Vishuddhi(located near throat) -> connected to skin
Anahatha(located near heart) -> connected to blood
Manipura (located near navel) -> connected to flesh/muscle
Swadhishtana (located near private organ) -> connected to Brain
Moolaadhaara(located near the lower tip of the spine) -> connected to Bone.

Agnya is related to 2 letters. (It means these letters are connected to lymph/marrow/fat)
Vishuddhi is related to 16 letters. (connected to skin)
Anahatha is related to 12 letters. (connected to blood)
Manipura is related to 10 letters. (connected to flesh/muscle)
Swadhishtana is related to 6 letters. (connected to brain)
Mooladhaara is related to 4 letters. (connected to bone)

2+ 16 + 12 + 10+ 6 + 4 = 50. The remaining 4 are the three pranavas and the lla.

This info is given in Lalitha Sahasranama. There is a lot more information there about the related food items and the divinities, ...etc.

This takes us to the root of the alphabets itself.

Aspects of Mantra

Mantra has two primary aspects – dhvani and varna or sound and the form/alphabet.

[[Brahman]]
|
|
[[Sabda]] – Akasa
|
|____ [[Dhvani]]
| |____ Dhvani (vibration)
| | |____ Beeja ([[Mantra]] – Energy)
| |____ Swara
| |____ Swara (Siksha)
| |____ Nada (Sangeeta)
|____ Varna
|____ Akshara (Alphabet/syllable)
|____ [[Artha]] (Nirukta)
|____ [[Vyakarana]]
|____ Chandas

The actual sound or vibration and its effect are grouped under dhvani. This includes the science of pronunciation and chanting (Siksha), and the energy associated with sounds/beejas.

The basic study of varna or sound-roots is the next part. The combination of varnas to form words, their sequencing and ordering in sentences is called vyakarana or grammar. The study of meanings associated to words is nirukta. It is based on the psychological effect or reaction to various natural phenomena, and the sounds corresponding to those effects. Chandas is the study of meter, arrangement of syllable groups, with different lengths.
Dhvani

Dhvani is the acoustic aspect of Sabda.
Varna mala

Varna, as it means color, is basically the shade of sound that is produced. Varna mala is the set of basic elements of sound, from which all kinds of sounds emanate. There are seven basic varnas, “a”, “e”, “u”, “ae”, “o”, “am”, “aH”. These seven flavors are the primal variations of the nada that originates from muladhara as para vak. Of these “a” is the beginning, and is called “varnadi” or first of varnas. “H” form originates from above the others, and gets mixed with the “a” produced at muladhara, to make it “aH”. Hence these are called Sapta Matrikas. (They are Brahmi, Vaishnavi, Mahesvari, Indrani, Varahi, Kaumari and Camundi.) These are the basis for all forms of sounds. These do not need any intervention of tongue to be produced. The other vowel forms “ai”, “ou” are a combination of these.

Then various sound-roots are arranged in groups or “gana”s. These are based on how they are produced, when the tongue touches the different parts of the palette or teeth (dantika) or lips (ostha) or through movement of cheeks (talu). “ka”, “ca”, “Ta”, “ta”, “pa” are the sounds produced with tongue touches the front part of lobe above the tongue. “ga”, “ja”, “Da”, “da”, “ba” respectively, are produced right behind the above sequence. For instance “ga” is produced at a spot right behind “ka” and so on. Of all these, “ga” originates from the deepest part of the mouth from the back part of the lobe. Hence it is called “ganadi” or the first of all ganas. The leaders of different ganas are like “ka”, “kha”, “ga”, “gha”, “ya”.

The total varnas with all the ganas count to 64. These are called the 64 kalas or 64 yoginis that serve the Mother or Para Vak.
Bhasha

Language or Bhasha, is the composition of grammar and a set of words. Word-roots are representatives of natural phenomena, their names, and are inseparable from their meanings. Thus each sound is a representative of a natural phenomenon and vocabulary describes the universe. However unlike in the common usage of language, it is not the etymological meaning of the word that is important, but the sound itself is said to represent the phenomenon as well as imply meaning of that word.

For instance the bija that represents anger is “hum”. It is a common usage in some of the Indian languages to say that a person made “hum-kaara” to say he shouted in anger. Similarly the words like “phat-kaara”, “cheet-kaara”, “dhik-kaara”, “haahaa-kaara”, “jhan-kaara” and so on. This not only shows how closely beejas represent natural phenomenon, but how closely mantra Sastra and language are related, and also how a technical subject like mantra Sastra made into the daily life and common usage.

Mantra Beejas are composed by the same principle and that is how the qualities of Devata are determined by the beejas. For instance the vidyas having maya beeja as the central one are pleasant and smiling forms (Ex. Lalita, Bhuvaneswari). The vidyas having krodha (hum) are angry or ferocious forms. The various natural phenomena like happiness and auspiciousness (sreem, central in Kamalatmika/Sri), anger (hum, central in Chinnamasta), smoke (dhuum central in Dhumavati), fire (agni - ram), desire (kleem, central in Sri Krishna and Bala vidyas) form central letters of the vidyas. For the same reason alphabet is referred to in multiple ways in the description of Gods - Kali wearing 51 skulls, 64 yogini Ganas worshiping the Mother, seven Matrikas and so on. These "beejas" are found in common usage, not only in sanskrit but in regional languages too: one is said to make a "humkara" when angry, "Sri" is used as a sign of noble, and so on.

Sound and the meaning are inseparable, and one is invariably accompanied by the other. There is a verse that describes this – “vaagartha vipa sampruttau, vaagartha pratipattayet, jagataH pitarau vande parvati parameswarau”. Vak and artha are inseparable as Siva and Sakti are.

Vak-suddhi is about purifying language in a way that sound and meaning always go together. This is possible only when pronunciation, thought and speech all are perfected.
Devata

Each devata is associated with a beeja. The nature of the devata, powers, are known through the mantra of the devata, and especially the beejas.

In general all beejas of devatas end with anusvara(“M’) or visarga(“H”).
Ganapati

Ganapati is the primal devata and is worshiped ahead of any other devata in every occasion. “Gam”, is the beeja for Ganapati, much symbolic of His name. “Ga” is Ganadi, “a” is varnadi and “m” is anusvara. Thus He is the leader of all pramatha Ganas and qualifies to be worshiped first.
Mantra Yoga

Sound is produced through contact, vibration and obstruction. This is called Ahata. However cosmic hiss if one can hear is eternal and existent. This is called Anahata. It is not produced by us but only heard. A yogi can hear this. In sadhana one makes the sound oneself (by doing mantra japa), in a rhythm, resonant with the vibrations of his nadis and his breath. Through this one will be able to discover the deeper vibration. This way of merging individual with cosmic is called mantra yoga.

It is based on the principle – Sabda is Brahman. And uttering sound in a methodical way is the way to realize the eternal sound.

In reality the same yoga is practiced and variedly called Mantra yoga, Laya yoga, Kundalini yoga. These forms are inseparable and lead to each other. Mantra yoga concentrates on nada to strike rhythm between individual and cosmic vibration, to activate the right nadis, to expose one into the cidakasa or daharakasa. Sabda is the tanmatra of mahabhuta Akasa. And through sabda one tries to turn his vision inwards from akasa to daharakasa, through chanting the mantra, by producing sound to slowly listening the anahata sound without producing it.

This is the reason why japa is graded in three steps: bahya, upamsu and antar japa. Chanting aloud, trying to do it with minimal sound and movement of lips, then doing it totally inwards mentally. However we should remember that this applies to individual sadhana and not vedic chanting. Vedic chanting is done aloud, and that will ensure its results.

Thus eventually when mantra yoga is achieved, one achieves laya yoga also, since his consciousness is directed to daharakasa where his devata resides.

There are three levels, gross, subtle and causal. While doing mantra sadhana, one will get mantra siddhi and will be able to see taijasic world – the devata will appear in subtle form, one will be able to enjoy subtle world instead of gross ones. Over time one will enter the karana-akasa or chidakasa. There the causal world is seen. And the causal being of the universe, Isvara will be realized. So basically it is the same devata, once seen as a taijasic being, is now realized as a causal being. Devata is in fact Brahman – only the sadhaka is realizing devata as subtle or causal as he is elevating in consciousness. Eventually, beyond this, he will achieve advaita-siddhi, and realize devata as Brahman.

The steps are more or less similar in laya yoga too.
Pranava

Pranava or Omkara, is said to be the para nada, the essence of Veda, and verily Brahman. It is formed with three matrikas, “a”, “u” and “m”. These three are said to be symbolic of creation, sustenance and dissolution, and “aum” as a whole is Turiya or unmanifest Brahman. While chanting “aum” one begins nada with “a”, sustains it through “u” and concludes it with “m”, and this is said to be symbolic of creation, sustenance and dissolution of the universe too.

These three syllables variedly represent the three states – waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep, three functions, and three levels of consciousness and so on.

The variant of this, Devi pranava, is “Uma”, which is basically a reorder of the same roots as sustenance, dissolution and creation. Thus Devi’s primary role is sustenance and pervasion, much similar to Her sibling Vishnu.


Link

So, about the origin of Alphabets:
Panini(the famous Sanskruth Grammarian) mentions that the following sounds were discovered.
Image
This led to the alphabets.

There is also a concept of Bheeja Manthras:
Image

This is not a comprehensive list.

Om = Pranava and represents the Nirguna Brahman.
Aim = Saraswathi(learning).
Im = Goddess
Hrim = Goddess Bhuvaneshwari
Shrim = Lakshmi (Wealth)

Here is a link to david frawley's explanation about some of these sounds

Then, there is also Bheeja Manthras related to elements:
Lam = Earth and Smell
Vam = Water and Taste
Ram = Fire and Sight
Yam = Air and Touch
Ham = Ether and Sound

It seems that Each letter(alphabet) is connected to a divinity. For example, the letter Ka is called Kaala-Raathri i.e. Dark Night. She is a Goddess. She is one of the Nava-Dhurgas. There is also a Raathri Suktham in Vedhas.(That suktham may use the letter Ka more or maybe it will invoke the energy connected to the letter Ka).

Similarly the letter Ba is called Bandhini i.e. constrained. The letter A(the first alphabet) is called Amrutha i.e. Immortal. Similarly, each letter seems to be associated with a divinity. That means each letter is associated with an energy.

It would be interesting exercise to measure resonance(vibration), temperature, and other changes(physical, chemical and biological) while using these Manthras and poems.

Aadhi Shankara's Soundharya Lahari also seems to be famous for this particular aspect. Even though it is a poetry with a meaning, there seems to be many Manthra sounds(including Bheeja Manthras) incorporated into these lyrics. The idea seems to be that it will generate certain types of energy when they are read. So, there seems to be both meaning and energy according to the tradition. The same would be true about Vedhas as well because it is the Vedhas that inspire these works directly or indirectly.

ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2014 23:16

So 26 alphabets leaves one with distorted sounds! No wonder its so difficult to pronounce things in English.

Great education JohneeG. When are you going to put all these in abook for dissemination?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby johneeG » 09 Jul 2014 23:30

ramana wrote:So 26 alphabets leaves one with distorted sounds! No wonder its so difficult to pronounce things in English.

Great education JohneeG. When are you going to put all these in abook for dissemination?


I myself don't know much about this, saar. I am also learning as I write. I'll try to write it down for my own education. :)

I actually have written something about another aspect which I would like to turn into a book for dissemination. It deals with comparative study of religions and concentrates on Buddhist origins of Christianity. I'll send it to you and some other stalwarts on the forum for review once I am finished. Currently I am stuck at a place.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 09 Jul 2014 23:38

JohneeG garu :D

What is this energy in these sounds/alphabets we are talking about?

Each Vasini/Vowel directs your breath/Prana energy from a certain path in your mouth/throat. Each Consonent originates in a chakra/energy source.

As one speaks these bija mantras the energy (at causal/karana level) is channeled in a certain order. Internally it will guide the Prana in a certain path and order; causing specific pranic (biochemical/bioelectrical) flow.

Normally, when we speak/say something, we follow a key/guide book; which is called language. Language is nothing but a mutually agreed upon key where all of us agree to use specific set of keywords for certain thing. For example Gaja means Elephant. The moment someone says Gaja, the brain visualizes/retrieves all the information (audi-visual-perception-fantasy) information associated with the word Gaja.

Similarly, Vedas have their own key. Somewhere/somehow we lost this key and are currently trying to use a wrong key (like using search patterns on english translation of Veda) OR trying to regenerate the key based on the pattern recognition approaches. This is like submitting a Java code to a Pascal compiler or trying to generate a C compiler based on a Java produced code dump :P

????

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby jamwal » 11 Jul 2014 11:53

https://hinduism.stackexchange.com

Hinduism Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for followers of the Hindu religion and those interested in learning more about Hinduism. It's 100% free, no registration required.

Atri
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Atri » 11 Jul 2014 16:51

This particular scene always has me in tears, everytime I watch it.



The final teachings of Bhishma to Yudhishthira from Shanti-Parva. Look how he strongly advises Yudhishthira to stand against the demand of partition and nip it in bud, when it arises.

Entire Shanti-Parva is an excellent glimpse at classical Hindu understanding and approach towards Politics, economics, jurisprudence and society. This "Pre-Chanakya" understanding of India of the "right-handed stream" of politics, jurisprudence and economics was put on back-burner when Chanakya developed the theories of Shukracharya and Aapaddharma (dharma during adverse times) rules of Shanti-Parva.


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