Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Cain Marko
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

.
- It is a convenient statement to make that decline in numbers can be arrested by purchase of Mig-29 variants or second hand mirages from Gulf nation(s) w/o getting into long term ramification of this decision. Whatever fighter gets inducted over next couple of years will need to serve the IAF for next 25 years at the minimum. Which of these 'interim' purchases have the capability to evolve over next 25 years and stay relevant?
All the fighters mentioned above can be kept relevant, at least as relevant as the existing iaf counterparts.

Qatari m2ks are already at dash 5 standard, similar to iaf upgrade. Agewise, they are just about as old as the latest iaf m2k acquisitions, circa 2000 iirc.
Mic-29SMT, again equal to iaf, IN standard
Mic29M, can be kept on par with IN fulcrum fleet without difficulty as they will be just as old as the naval.birds. The Russians are already putting the pieces together for upgrading their naval fulcrums I including more.powerful engines, and a possible 5gen roadmap. Expect newer tech to be made available here with time.

The beauty here lies in the cheap prices and the possibility of very quick inductions/operationalization considering the total commonality that already exists.

And as I said earlier, if this is unsuitable for whatever reasons, they can always call back on an additional mki purchase.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

"MMRCA deal not likely to fructify in the near future".Report in the New Ind.Express. 3 Reasons.
Angela Merkel has been rooting for the Typhoon,to speak to PM at Frankfurt stopover to rethink Rafale.Partially successful.
Secondly,"long-winding negotiations" about life cycle costs. (Ah, Ha!) which AKA had raised issue with,if the IAF flies the aircraft for 40 yrs.This is the first deal where such costs are being worked out say senior IAF officers. "One and-a-half decades on it would be it is obvious that the costs of these planes would increase and it could in fact double,considring ruppe-euro conversions and infaltion".
The CCS would then have to meet which would take 1-3 months for any escalation revision.Provision for the second lowest tenderer is there but the Typhoon is more expensive. Dassault and the GOI have not even reached the stage of price negotiation stage yet,say officers.

Now if Ch.Merkel can have such an effect on stalling the deal,imagine what it would be if Pres.Putin too pushed for the inexpensive MIG-35 at the BRICS summit and Pres.Hussein O'Bomber ("once more into a sales pitch,dear friends...") touted the SH and F-16s!

IAF,at this rate of decisionmaking the MMRCA deal is doomed to gather cobwebs in babudom. If you guys really want to stop numbers falling and maintain capability,just order more MKIs/SU-34s (90+ are being built for Russia very fast) or even more MIG-29/35 variants as the IN is doing,and put a fire under HAL's backside to deliver on the LCA.Start making your plan Bs,Cs,whatever.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Is the author saying that other governments have wielded so much influence in a month? Find that very hard to believe.

My feel is that either the Rafale comes at a lower price or the MMRCA is cancelled. Cannot see it being replaced.

But, the option of used planes seems to be the most viable - to get numbers up. Then India needs a wholehearted, true effort to design + build a the latest and greatest.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off
India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.

Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.

However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.

It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.

A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.

During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.

Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.

‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.

Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.

‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.

Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.

Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.

Reasons for Delay

The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet

Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000

The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months

Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

1)
The benchmark for affordability is something the government decides based on the long-term prospects of the economy and the security needs of the nation. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that either consideration was disregarded in the planning and the ongoing execution of the MMRCA process.
Is this "disregarded".............................
[u]Here[/u] wrote: Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
_________________________________________________________________

2)

The rest of the amount also needs to be factored in.

All $20 billion of it.

(BTW, these lakh crore ............................ are they well understood in India? Does it provide a sense of urgency?)
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srai »

Plan B: Shore up on existing/indigenous types:
  • 2 x Su-30MKI squadrons (making it 16 squadrons total)
  • 2 x Jaguar UPG squadrons (making it 8 squadrons total)
  • 2 x LCA Mk.1 squadrons (on top of 40 a/c ordered)
  • 4 x LCA Mk.2 squadrons (on top of 4 planned)
  • 2 squadrons (augment/new) - Any additional second-hand MiG-29s upgraded
  • 2 squadrons (augment/new) - Any additional second-hand Mirage-2000s upgraded
  • Combat capable Trainers (upgrade) - bulk of IJT, Hawk AJT, and PC-7II/HTT-40 fleet
Plus, invest in force multipliers, such as PGM quantities, LR-PGMs, AAR and ECCM, along with better fleet serviceability (>70%) across all types.
member_28476
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_28476 »

Rafale is already irrelevant
Says who? An expert in air warfare?
abhik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

How many fighters has the Rafale shot down in its 'combat proven' service? Breakdown of BVR, WVR, gun kills. TIA.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

eklavya wrote:
Karan M wrote:BTW all IAF fighters will operate over enemy territory. The IAF doctrine is around offensive action.
Aircraft providing limited offensive capability and/or with with a lower probability of survival will not operate over enemy territory; at least not until enemy air defences have been sufficiently degraded. In a 2-front war, and in the current scenario, we may not unfortunately have a choice, with significant numbers of Su-30s/MiG-29/Mirage 2000 getting diverted to the east, which is why the capability that the Rafale/Typhoon/SH class a/c bring is so important to maintain a credible deterrent into the future.

These are some incorrect assumptions you are making because by these only gold plated fighters can survive standards none of the Jaguars, MiG27s or MiG21s or the vast majority of Mirage2000s and Mig29s -most of which will remain non upgraded for several years to come, can operate over enemy territory. All of these have avionics or multirole capability far behind that of a FOC Mk1. The non upgraded Mirages for instance won't even be able to use ARH BVR weapons till the upgrade completes. The non upgraded MiG29s which you claim will escort other fighters are equally dependent on others for an EW escort.

In short, you are forsaking objectivity on the basis of the assumption that the Mk1 is somehow inferior when technical data driven assessments bear it out that it is not versus the vast majority of the IAFs legacy fighters or even what it faces across the border in the form of the PAF and the PLAAF (whose newer Flankers are superior and that they would be anyhow versus IAFs current non Flanker fleet). Even the legacy Jaguars are being upgraded, a proposition purely based on minimizing cost and one not liable to succeed easily despite an upgrade offering capabilities behind that of a Mk1.

The IAFs current stand is clearly built around getting a MMRCA and then standardising on one block of its LCA. That's fine but the point under discussion is of a PlanB. More Sukhois and more Mk1LCAs can hence easily meet that need.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

srai wrote:Plan B: Shore up on existing/indigenous types:
  • 2 x Su-30MKI squadrons (making it 16 squadrons total)
  • 2 x Jaguar UPG squadrons (making it 8 squadrons total)
  • 2 x LCA Mk.1 squadrons (on top of 40 a/c ordered)
  • 4 x LCA Mk.2 squadrons (on top of 4 planned)
  • 2 squadrons (augment/new) - Any additional second-hand MiG-29s upgraded
  • 2 squadrons (augment/new) - Any additional second-hand Mirage-2000s upgraded
  • Combat capable Trainers (upgrade) - bulk of IJT, Hawk AJT, and PC-7II/HTT-40 fleet
Plus, invest in force multipliers, such as PGM quantities, LR-PGMs, AAR and ECCM, along with better fleet serviceability (>70%) across all types.
I would take out the Jag upgrades and add additional Mirage 2000s from Qatar.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by satya »

Budget + possible German visit + US visit = surprise for france !
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Not likely
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

Interesting articles

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/inte ... to-france/

India: Back to France
By B Raman
Both British and French arms dealers and their agents fought a bitter Psywar against each other by planting stories which were meant to create doubts in the mind of P.V.NarasimhaRao, the then Prime Minister.
I was in service at that time and had personal knowledge of the way stories—which ultimately turned out to be false— were planted through politicians, bureaucrats and journalists to create doubts in the minds of the decision-makers about the integrity of those involved in the decision-making and of the decision-making process itself. As a result, there was inordinate delay in signing the final contract for the purchase of advance jet trainers.
The British particularly played a very dirty game by planting suspicions in the minds of NarasimhaRao through their contacts in the Indian intelligence community. It is quite likely that history may repeat itself and a similar Psywar may again start

The longer the delay, the dirtier will be the Psywar.
Analysts have already started discussing about possible strategic collateral benefits to India as a result of the IAF’s decision to go for Rafale. Two possible benefits have been highlighted—- a greater keenness on the part of the French to step-up their co-operation with India in the nuclear and space fields and a revival of the 1970s project for co-operation between the intelligence agencies of India and France to monitor developments in the Indian Ocean in the waters to the West of India.

The credit for giving a French orientation to India’s strategic thinking should go to Indira Gandhi.
Indian Air Force: Looking into the future
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/inte ... -future/0/
The IAF saw its first phase of modernisation during the mid-1960s; the next in the early 1980s. Thereafter there was a prolonged lull.
Inductions materialise only when cleared by the civilian bureaucracy and sanctioned by the political leadership – the norm is piecemeal acquisition based on case-by-case justification, rather than in accordance with a sound, long-term defence plan.
According to IAF thinking, the service’s transformation into a potent and networked aerospace power hinges on three things. First, induction and integration of new technology weapon platforms and upgrading of the existing inventory; second, induction and training of manpower to handle the new inventory; and, finally, revision of concepts and doctrines. Its present focus is to transform into a “capability-based force” rather than an “adversary-centric” one. It also needs to be ready to fight across the entire spectrum of conflict – from the strategic and distant to the smallest localised encounter.
The equipment being inducted by the IAF during the decade will remain in service only up to 2050; assuming upgrades perhaps till 2060. It is necessary to lay the groundwork for a 45-combat-squadron force that will be required for the IAF to go on the offensive against one of its adversaries, while keeping the other at bay, as well as to shoulder responsibilities that might arise far beyond the nation’s boundaries.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Pagot wrote:
Rafale is already irrelevant
Says who? An expert in air warfare?
An expert in planning, a good-enough in finance and a plain simple thinker (which, it seems is in very short supply now a days).




OK, fine, let us go *only* with this expert in air warfare. All such a person has to do is to lay down a simple (again that word) timeline. On which mark when each of the planes (Rafale (or a MMRCA for the IAF), a FGFA and a AMCA) are likely to come, capabilities, costs, etc. Granted one is a mature plane, the next is semi there and the last a pure paper plane.



I now think what has helped the Rafale the most is the absence of a "FGFA" .................... could it be a psywarist? IF a true FGFA - per plan -was here in 2015 .................. phoooooof, this MMRCA discussion would have been resolved without anyone batting an eyelid.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by eklavya »

NRao wrote:1)
The benchmark for affordability is something the government decides based on the long-term prospects of the economy and the security needs of the nation. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that either consideration was disregarded in the planning and the ongoing execution of the MMRCA process.
Is this "disregarded".............................
[u]Here[/u] wrote: Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
_________________________________________________________________

2)

The rest of the amount also needs to be factored in.

All $20 billion of it.

(BTW, these lakh crore ............................ are they well understood in India? Does it provide a sense of urgency?)
:) So you think the contract negotiating committee is just raking up expenses and wasting copious amounts of paper, ink and breath in the full knowledge that the coffers are khaali? Haven't they got something better to do?

India's GDP in 2014-15 will be ca INR 130 lakh crore, or INR 1.3 crore crore, for those who like to think in 10^7. So that puts INR 1 lakh crore in perspective.

Good days are coming NRao ji:

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7KHAVu ... ecast.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

next is semi there and the last a pure paper plane.
IF a true FGFA - per plan -was here in 2015 .................. phoooooof, this MMRCA discussion would have been resolved without anyone batting an eyelid.
Yes Sir, that is a perfectly valid reason. But neither the true blue 5th gen FGFA nor the Mk.2 is visible on the horizon so the urgency for Rafale.
Problem at the supply end not at the user end :)
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Post by member_23694 »

eklavya wrote:India's GDP in 2014-15 will be ca INR 130 lakh crore, or INR 1.3 crore crore, for those who like to think in 10^7. So that puts INR 1 lakh crore in perspective.

Good days are coming NRao ji:
And to add the future prospects

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -gdp-f2014

From the current $2 trillion GDP
India's GDP is likely to rise to US$3 trillion by 2020 and US$5tn by 2025 and the financial sector will be an important part of this growth pickup, Morgan Stanley's macro team has outlined the case in a report.
And if we don't meet these numbers then all our fault and self inflicted like in the previous years and in that case we should forget about any 5th gen , 4.5 gen fighters even if indigenous and even the local defense industry. Simple
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Does this GDP put money in the budget? If so, where is the money in the budget and how many other unplanned expenditures are there? Please compare and tell us. Thing is GDP is a useful metric to track economic progress but per se, the budget with revenue and expenditure is what matters.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

dhiraj is an expert at rolling bread.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by eklavya »

Karan M wrote:Does this GDP put money in the budget? If so, where is the money in the budget and how many other unplanned expenditures are there? Please compare and tell us. Thing is GDP is a useful metric to track economic progress but per se, the budget with revenue and expenditure is what matters.
GDP does put money in budget. See this World Bank data series (Tax revenue as % of GDP):

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS

2009: 9.6%
2010: 10.2%
2011: 8.8%
2012: 10.7%
Average (2009-12): 9.8%

What the money is spent on (partly) depends on the Government's priorities e.g. infrastructure, food subsidies, fuel subsidies, defence, etc. Some expenditure (e.g. salaries, pensions) are very inflexible.

Defence has been receiving an allocation of about 2% of GDP.

Government also borrows to fund expenditure (the fisal deficit). Here is some more data (Deficit as % of GDP):

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC. ... /countries

2009: - 5.4%
2010: - 3.4%
2011: - 2.9%
2012: - 3.8%
Average (2009-12): - 3.9% (I have a suspicion this excludes the deficit of the State governments)

Ultimately what matters for the strength of the government's balance sheet is the debt to GDP ratio. See data here for Central Government debt to GDP ratio:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC. ... /countries

2009: 54.3%
2010: 50.6%
2011: 43.7%
2012: 49.7%
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Eklavyaji, those are correlations as GDP is used to benchmark economic progress. So it clearly follows that a strong economy should, theoretically, have a better revenue stream. One can well make such metrics for any economy that is well managed. Question is does GDP actually translate to money in hand for a mismanaged economy?
Answer is no, if the revenue streams are not managed properly and if expenditures are out of control.

That in a nutshell is the Indian challenge. We can well debate that notionally we have a good GDP or even that we have good prospects. But in hand, what is the money that we have? How much of it can be committed to defence while other needs are equally pressing, given a decade of economic mismanagement.

The previous Govt savvily followed a burnt grasslands policy. They kept spending on all critical projects in abeyance for it to fall on the next govt, whereas tremendous amounts were splurged on vote gathering schemes like NReGa. They also neglected industrial growth to accelerate future growth streams for income. End result is we are literally negative given what we need to spend on and what we have. So on paper, our GDP May be good, but in reality, in terms of per capita GDP and even quality of living indices, we are so behind the first world in so many areas it's a disaster. This automatically puts pressure on the current govt to spend on such projects and it's also directly correlated to their political survival.

If we see the amounts wasted on a dig the ditch fill the ditch sort of programs, the Rafale could have been purchased. But that money is gone. I am one of those delighted at the selection of the Rafale, it was my number one pick on account of performance and supplier diversification plus record. However, at $16Bn and counting, and we all know that these notional prices only go upwards once the IAF gets the aircraft in hand and further modifications are a given, I do wonder whether we can currently afford it. Perhaps a decade from now, when the Revenue streams for the Govt outweigh the expenditure (or at least the combo of short and long term debt plus current expense is easily manageable). But right now we are a disaster.
Last edited by Karan M on 07 Jul 2014 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

eklavya wrote:On the one hand you say that Rafale can't deal with PLA/PLAAF air defences, and then you say, lets buy 500 LCAs. Is that a sick joke or what?
?

That's 500 dead IAF pilots (not that it matters a fig to the lobbies trying to scuttle the MMRCA process) if ever sent up against even Su-30 equivalent PLAAF fighters and current air defences, let alone what's coming in the future.
Do you or do you not understand that 20 billion $, when spent on 500 LCA at 40 million$, is not exactly 500 baseline , circa 2012 LCAs.....

That 20 billion $ will find its way into so much technical development of the LCA path, viz avionics, missiles, FCRs, that it will be a very advanced, 20 bn$ technically jazzed up LCA.

I'd rather encourage my own ecosystem than France's.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

So you think the contract negotiating committee is just raking up expenses and wasting copious amounts of paper, ink and breath in the full knowledge that the coffers are khaali?
(Getting to a point where it is waste of time.................. But multiple things here.)

1)
*think*? No. It is there is plain black-n-white.

2)
There are two entities here to "fund":

a)
first the committee you mention - this has been funded, and

b)
The project itself (Rafale in this case). Which has not been funded.

(BTW, that is how any entity operates, especially a government one.)

3)
On "coffers are khali":

a) Coffers can be overflowing, but does not mean much. There is still something called a bad investment. As an example one pays the price of a Lamby for an Amby. And, my feeling is is just that - that India is paying way too much for a great plane. Again, the issue is not the greatness of the plane nor the urgency of getting the IAF a platform to keep the borders safe nor the politics involved in these projects nor that the nogotiations have gone too long (and therefore the costs have gone up) nor anything else. Just plain that the Rafale costs too much. The Rafale at $20 billion - IMHO - is a very bad investment (NOT a bad platform)

b) Those very coffers could get the IAF a lot more IMHO of course than what the Rafale could buy the IAF. Including getting a few Rafales from france and then design+build a brand new "next gen" with France.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Of course as Shivji tightly pointed out we may all be flying Hawai vahan ourselves and the Rafale is a given. If so, I hope the offsets are tightly monitored they can literally change the course of Indian industry.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Pagot wrote:@Viv S, spectra is far from a simple defensive aid subsystem. It is capable to for example propose rerouting vs popping up missions, jamming a S-300 (as shown during MACE XII), a Captor-M and its data are fused with radar (or other sensors like recce pod, damocles) ones for target designation...
- Rerouting works when there are holes in the enemy air defence. In an airspace, heavy with SAMs and AEW&C units, that's not realistic.
- Pop-up missions are doable. But that puts the aircraft at the mercy of MANPADS and IR based AAA. Also strips the pilot of situational awareness, reduces his weapon range and still leaves the aircraft vulnerable to airborne radars.
- The SPECTRA reportedly spoofed the S-300 with DRFM. That's a very different call against an AESA-based HQ-9 (and newer S-300 variants).
- For jamming on the other hand, you need a dedicated aircraft like the Growler, though the APG-81 is supposedly very potent at the role.
- Its data is fused with the radar yes, but the radar itself is limited by its small antenna. Even the AESA variant's uprated performance is at best... only adequate. 50% range increase over the PESA which has only a 100km tracking range (vs 3 sq.m target).
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

eklavya wrote:The benchmark for affordability is something the government decides based on the long-term prospects of the economy and the security needs of the nation. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that either consideration was disregarded in the planning and the ongoing execution of the MMRCA process.
Did the govt predict that

- the growth rate would slump from 10% to 4.5%. (8% was touted at the economy's 'natural' growth rate at the time but we'll be lucky to recover that pace before the end of the decade.)

- the deal's cost would spiral from $12 billion to $20 billion+.

- the acquisition would be delayed by over 6 years. Because the Rafale is now 6 years closer to obsolescence and has a proportionately diminished value.
Please make up you mind whether we need Tejas or the F-35. At the moment, your position may be characterised by an innocent bystander as "anything but rafale" :)
Where's the overlap? One's the most cost effective workhorse money can buy and the other's the most cost effective force multiplier that money can buy.

The Tejas will be valuable in every run of the mill task the IAF performs - CAS, CAP, interception, strike, escort etc.

For the more dangerous tasks you need the F-35 - SEAD, DEAD, ISR, deep strike, etc. And its a superb force multiplier. (For the record, even the PAK FA will be preferable (vs Rafale) if it comes down to it.)

The Rafale is too expensive for the former roles and grossly inadequate for the latter set.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sumeet »

Viv S wrote:
Pagot wrote:@Viv S, spectra is far from a simple defensive aid subsystem. It is capable to for example propose rerouting vs popping up missions, jamming a S-300 (as shown during MACE XII), a Captor-M and its data are fused with radar (or other sensors like recce pod, damocles) ones for target designation...
- Rerouting works when there are holes in the enemy air defence. In an airspace, heavy with SAMs and AEW&C units, that's not realistic.
Hypothetical argument that we are engaging in will not prove things one way or the other.

The fundamental point is that if rerouting is possible in certain situation then this capability is there for utilization for Rafale guided by SPECTRA.

- The SPECTRA reportedly spoofed the S-300 with DRFM. That's a very different call against an AESA-based HQ-9 (and newer S-300 variants).
This is again cat and mouse game. SPECTRA will evolve so will the SAM systems it is put against. On this forum we can hardly decide what will prevail against which.

Back in 2003 EADs DE was playing around with a 3rd Gen DRFM. UMS, a joint venture between Thales and EADS is already producing 1st Gen GaN chips. They should find military applications in future updates to SPECTRA and RBE-2 AESA. Its difficult to find the status of advancements of Chinese technologies for the same, so what can be said of comparison. Even Pakistan preferred French avionics for Thunder.

- For jamming on the other hand, you need a dedicated aircraft like the Growler, though the APG-81 is supposedly very potent at the role.
Agreed. If IAF's doctrine remain Strike oriented regarding China then assets like this and platorms like JSTAR, ELINT/SIGINT, ARMs, Stand off Cruise missiles, Decoys, Space Based ISR will all become indispensable.

To even start dreaming of anything remotely similar to above we would need to have a decade of nearly double digit economic growth. Of course this is where wasted time under UPA leadership comes to my mind and increases my BP.

On a side note:
Thales has all relevant technologies. Given a go ahead they can produce an operational Growler version of Rafale with Dassault. Or for that matter these technologies can be set up on any other aircraft including UCAVs etc.

Thales Airborne Electronic Attack
New Airborne Electronic Attack concept for electronic support jamming missions in present and future environments

Increased ES/EA mission capability through advanced jamming functions
  • Pod or internally mounted, for fighter aircraft, UAV, J-UCAV or mission aircraft with network centric warfare (NCW) capabilities
    Very high power main / side / scattered lobe jamming
    Unsigned raid DDA, up to RF horizon action possible
    Smart techniques / coherent waveforms / covert jamming
    Smart power management using active phased array transmitter
Outstanding performance with latest jamming technologies
  • Solid-state active phased array AESA jamming
    Highly sensitive digital reception
    Highly effective multi-bit DRFM jamming techniques
Main features
  • Very high ERP, for main, side and scattered lobes jamming
    Multiple DRFM architecture for simultaneous beam aimed multi-threat jamming
    Smart digital jamming techniques
    Wide angular coverage, up to 360°
    Extended low and high brand threat coverage capabilities
Carbone Demonstration Aircraft
The new Thales AEA concepts and technologies have been implemented within the CARBONE demonstration programme.

CARBONE was presented and evaluated during the MACE X NATO trials, operating against sophisticated eastern/western radar technologies.
Last edited by Sumeet on 07 Jul 2014 07:23, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Thales has all relevant technologies. Given a go ahead they can produce an operational Growler version of Rafale with Dassault.
++1.

I think that is the key to engage with the French in general.

The -ve? I am not convinced that the French have a dire need to go beyond, say, a Rafale MLU. And that too, I am sure, they would prefer to have someone else fund it.

So, as much as I would love to engage with them, I think it is s high risk path.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by deejay »

While I was sleeping, this discussion went a full circle. Here are my two bits:

I think NRao ji is saying
...that India is paying way too much for a great plane.
.

Karan M is arguing on a very similar line. As long as the TOT and Offsets justify the price, I think that we should get the plane. It is a plane which the IAF chose in a strong competition.

Viv S is arguing that not Rafale but put the money on LCA or F35. VivS you made a great point on the Su 30 thread which I think is right (IAF will call this BS).
While I agree the hurdle for the Su-30 overhauls is not funding, $20 billion on the Rafale will reduce the Tejas program to an obligation instead of an opportunity. It'll be tolerated by the IAF but not driven by it, not the way the foreign products are pushed to evolve by their respective militaries.
When you mention aircraft to aircraft comparison, I am not convinced. By the way could you try and answer a query I posed in an earlier post. It will help in this one to one comparison.

Eklavya ji is not buying the theory that we don't have money. I agree. Just the subsidy bill reduction will get a lot of money out. Please, I am not saying, take it from the subsidies and give it to the French. But the money is there if we want.

My take is that Rafale and Tejas are two different machines whose futures are mostly decoupled. I do not see IAF going in for more LCA if Rafale does not happen. In fact alternatives will be sought and bought cause the AMCA is miles away.

The merits of Rafale was judged by the IAF and they are best judge of that. You and I are wrong in doubting the Aircraft on merit. The F 35 was not there in the competition. We should not buy F 35 or both the PAK FA and the nascent AMCA goes out of the window. No?

The question then: Is the machine too pricy? For one thing, cost negotiations have not started (there was some report which said this). Secondly, given that these negotiations on a costly item will take time, FY 2015-2016 is the earliest that the deal may be signed. I think this year IAF gets its AH 64E, Raffy will wait.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Sumeet wrote:Hypothetical argument that we are engaging in will not prove things one way or the other.

The fundamental point is that if rerouting is possible in certain situation then this capability is there for utilization for Rafale guided by SPECTRA.
Rerouting comes into play only where there is a channel available for infiltration. For an 4th gen aircraft sporting a dirty payload against a first rate IADS supported by AWACS and AESA equipped Su-30s on CAP, that's asking too much.
This is again cat and mouse game. SPECTRA will evolve so will the SAM systems it is put against. On this forum we can hardly decide what will prevail against which.
Older Russians systems were limited by available computing power despite fielding powerful equipment. The same doesn't apply to their modern iterations. The Rafale will continue to have the same space, power and cooling limitations. BTW the significance of AESA employment on the HQ-9 is, to quote Thales -

use of active antennas opens new horizons in terms of future radar functionality — particularly in the areas of jam resistance
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

deejay wrote:Viv S is arguing that not Rafale but put the money on LCA or F35.
No 'or' involved. The Tejas is what's needed and in strength both for its cost effectiveness, to push up squadron numbers and for the boost it'll give the domestic industry.

It is with regard to the ideas about (at least a limited number of) Rafales being required to 'take the fight to the enemy', that the F-35 enters the picture. If you need a couple of squadrons i.e. an 'elite' element within the fleet for special tasks of that nature, the F-35 is your best bet.
When you mention aircraft to aircraft comparison, I am not convinced. By the way could you try and answer a query I posed in an earlier post. It will help in this one to one comparison.
Based on the above: for a 'given' mission of 04 aircraft strike package consisting of Rafale on an airfield (at twice the range of LCA for such a mission) could you please state the package size in terms of LCAs (replacing the Rafales) and support aircraft. Please humour me and plan for in flight refuelling using SU-30 MKIs and forget the ERJ-145 AEW&C assuming it to be same for both cases.
Twice the range of the Tejas implies 1000 km+. So in effect you're proposing a scenario where the Rafale/Tejas attack an airfield at least 500 km behind the LAC.
The merits of Rafale was judged by the IAF and they are best judge of that. You and I are wrong in doubting the Aircraft on merit. The F 35 was not there in the competition. We should not buy F 35 or both the PAK FA and the nascent AMCA goes out of the window. No?
Its not the merit of the aircraft in question, it is its cost effectiveness. And the IAF has not been involved in judging that aspect. Like I said before, the F-35 is priced competitively with the Rafale, yet its superior at every role. So its illogical to suggest that the former will squeeze the domestic industry while the latter wouldn't. As for the PAK FA if indeed we're sticking with it, so be it. But then really stick with it rather than exhausting the exchequer on the Rafale and needlessly complicating logistics with an additional aircraft type.
The question then: Is the machine too pricy? For one thing, cost negotiations have not started (there was some report which said this).
Cost negotiations have been on for a while now and at this stage seem thoroughly bogged down, though ToT and production have supposedly been finalized. And after this they'll be forwarded to the MoF (since the funding required has overshot the approved sum), which will inevitably throw a fit when it sees the bill.
Secondly, given that these negotiations on a costly item will take time, FY 2015-2016 is the earliest that the deal may be signed. I think this year IAF gets its AH 64E, Raffy will wait.
The Rafale is in its last leg of production. If the French MoD doesn't get export orders to sustain it, which is primarily an issue of protecting the jobs involved, they'll add in additional orders (current order stands at 26 units for the next five years) get the 180 aircraft under contract delivered and close the production down by decade end.

Point is, the longer we wait the closer the Rafale gets to obsolescence and the less its worth. Five years ago, the PAK FA & F-35 weren't in the picture, nor was the J-20 or J-31. But like it or not... five years have passed. Best we can do is adapt to the current circumstances and instead of bullheadedly pushing through an overpriced deal at a time of financial stress.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

abhik wrote:How many fighters has the Rafale shot down in its 'combat proven' service? Breakdown of BVR, WVR, gun kills. TIA.
Am guessing that's zero.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by deejay »

Viv S wrote: Twice the range of the Tejas implies 1000 km+. So in effect you're proposing a scenario where the Rafale/Tejas attack an airfield at least 500 km behind the LAC.
The situation is hypothetical and if you assume take off from LAC then yes the Airfield will be 500 kms or more away provided twice LCA range is 1000 kms with weapons or payload. (This would mean LCA range with weapons is 500 kms and its Combat Radius is 250 Kms, conservative figures me thinks but yes we can work on these).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

abhik wrote:abhik wrote:
How many fighters has the Rafale shot down in its 'combat proven' service? Breakdown of BVR, WVR, gun kills. TIA.

Am guessing that's zero.
Isn't this a question of convenience .
With regards to ground strike in its "combat proven" role it has performed well in Afghanistan , Mali and Libya. Further in Mali and Libya the mission were of pretty long duration.
Unfortunately NO plane came to challenge the Rafale so count seems to be zero :wink:

BTW out of curiosity how many kills does the F 22 have or the gripen or Typhoon or for the matter even the SU 30 MKI ?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

Though old but the articles provides some info on the Rafale deployment over Libya [Most of the members may already be aware of the below info. though]

France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 39-357687/

Rafale’s Multirole Capability
http://aviationweek.com/awin/rafale-s-m ... capability
Indeed, when it comes to air-to-air combat, he says the F3 takes the place of the Mirage 2000 RDI and Mirage 2000-5. For deterrence it replaces the Mirage 2000N. In air-to-ground attack it replaces the SEM, Mirage 2000D and Mirage F1 CT, and for reconnaissance the Mirage F1 CR. “By 2015 we will have only the Rafale and Mirage 2000D in our fleet, and by 2030 only the Rafale,” Reb says.
Pilots flying the Rafale over Libya and Afghanistan are pleased with its performance. Junior says the Rafale “allows the observation, orientation, decision and action loop to be drastically reduced because we can act in the cockpit.” He notes that “over Libya we're omnirole: While your recce is working by itself, you're scanning the skies and sending pictures to other aircraft. With one trigger pull of the AASM you can hit six targets simultaneously, in all weather and day or night.”
http://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/noti ... fference-/
A Nice quote
The deployment of Dassault´s Rafale was rolled out in spite of the harsh reality of global budget reductions, but with surprising results: A decreased total number of fighter, reconnaissance, and attack aircraft, but with an increase in mission capacity and availability, with a considerable increase in efficiency. In all, seven different air-craft models with specific missions had their designations absorbed in the Rafale. To give you a better idea, consider the savings after the last remaining aircrafts are fully replaced, with a drastic rationalization of human and financial resources, in reason of the standardization of equipment and crews.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Q.Why did Brazil dump the Rafale and plump for the Gripen? Are their lessons for us too? For argument's sake,surely there can be alternatives and that "only the Rafale" is a flawed credo,esp. if we don't have the money for it.Here is a DID analysis on the same,BTW,I'm not touting for SAAB !

When the MMRCA requirement was initiated,light single-engined fighters were the criteria.It was only after US birds became available that twin-engined medium sized birds were added to the list to allow the SH to contest,and the US expected it to win.The Gripen is replacing M-2000s so for the sake of argument,why not seriously consider it as a cost-effective western alternative if more Russian birds aren't wanted with he FGFA waiting in the wings too.The only argument for that is that the IAF have already selected the Rafale- a babu attitude. The GOI/MOD/IAF need to think outside the box if the Raffy is just too expensive and act fast too.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bra ... ram-04179/
F-X2: Brazil Picks Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen-NG over Rafale, Super Hornet
Apr 07, 2014 18:18 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
Latest update [?]

Brazil & Sweden sign preliminary agreements, discuss the lease of 10 interim fighters for Rio 2016.

March 3/14: Gripen lease. Brazil will lease 10 JAS-39C/D Gripens as interim fighters from 2016 – 2018, with the 1st batch of 6 arriving in time to fly over the Rio Olympics. The agreement also includes training, and a pair of Brazilian pilots will begins conversion training in May 2015. The JAS-39E/F fighters that follow will have some important differences, but they’ll also have many important similarities, so the lease will serve double duty as an early familiarization period.

The contract is still being negotiated, but the basic premise is that Sweden will loan the fighters, and Brazil will pay operating costs. Defining what that means will still be a bit of work, of course. Does that cover flying hours depreciation? What maintenance is required? What happens if things break? Et cetera. They’re hoping for a full agreement by May 2014. Spurces: Politica, “Brasil e Suecia discutem emprestimo de cacas Gripen”.

March 3/14: Agreements. Brazil and Saab sign advance agreements on defense cooperation, which lay the foundation for the future Gripen contract. This includes a defense cooperation framework agreement, whose scope is already wider than just fighters, and a corollary agreement that commits to appropriate levels of secrecy and security procedures within that cooperation framework. The new agreements build on documents signed in 1997 and 2000, and both will be forwarded to Brazil’s National Congress for approval.

The industrial goal is to be able to produce 80% of the plane in Brazil, which has future implications given that final Brazilian orders over time are estimated at 60 – 104 fighters. Equally significant, the accompanying security agreements include access to the Gripen’s source code. That will allow Brazil to add its own weapons to the new fighters, increasing the global attractiveness of both Saab’s Gripens and of Brazil’s weapons. A current wave of Latin American upgrades could create timing issues for wider regional sales, but export partnership arrangements are under discussion, and currently revolve around Latin America and developing nations with close Brazilian ties (“das nacoes em desenvolvimento com as quais o Brasil possui estreita relacao bilateral”). Sources: Brazil FAB, “Brasil assina acordos de cooperacao e da prosseguimento a compra dos cacas suecos” | See also Defense News, “Fleet Modernization Drives Requirements Across South America”.
{click to shrink ^}
Keep reading for the whole story with recent events put in contextDII
F-5BR
Upgraded F-5EM
(click to view full)

As Brazil started boosting its defense budgets in past years, its Navy and Army received funds to replace broken-down equipment, while new fighters will be a critical centerpiece of the Forca Aerea Brasileira’s efforts.

Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, France’s Dassault’s Rafale, Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen NG were picked as finalists. But after repeated stalling, for years the question was whether Brazil would actually place an order, or fold up the competition like the ill-fated 2011 F-X process. At the end of 2013 Brazil unexpectedly picked the Swedish offer, though offsets, price, and lack of diplomatic baggage, all can explain the decision.
Advertisement

F-X2: The Competition
Rafale-M Launch CVN-65
Dassault Rafale:
Takeoff at last?
(click to view full)

The 36+ aircraft under consideration for F-X2 were mostly the same set of 4+ generation fighters that were considered for the canceled F-X competition: Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, EADS’ Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 60, Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen NG, and Sukhoi’s SU-35.

The FAB was also said to be interested in the Lockheed-Martin F-35, but the finalized nature of the Lighting’s industrial production partnership program was likely to keep the program from delivering the industrial offsets Brazil seeks. Meanwhile, a pair of competitors from earlier rounds faded out. Dassault’s Mirage 2000 production line was closing, and Brazil did not mention the F-16 as a contender – or advance Lockheed Martin’s F-16BR Block 70 offer to the finals.

Reporter Tania Monteiro of the Brazilian newspaper O Estado de Sao Paulo writes that technology transfer will be an essential part of any deal, and quotes influential Workers’ Party Deputy (PT is Lula’s party, Deputy = MP or Congressman) Jose Genoino as saying:

“France is always the better partner. Concerning Russia, everyone knows the difficulties and we don’t know what is going to happen in ten years so that we will be able to guarantee our spare parts. The USA, traditionally, does not transfer technology… We want to seek the lowest price with the most technology transfer.”

That offers France an opportunity to get some export momentum and success behind its Rafale, which has lost every competition it has entered thus far (Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, UAE, et. al.). According to reports, the indications are that technology transfer will be more important than cost in terms of the final choice. Defence minister Nelson Jobim:

“Whatever the final contract it must be closely linked to national development, to help advance in the creation of a strong defense industry and therefore the technological edge we are requesting.”

Analysis: F-X2 Competitors

Some quick handicapping follows. The F-X2 finalists were Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen, France’s Rafale, and Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. Beyond the air force, the Marinha do Brazil eventually intends to buy 24 fighters of its own, to operate from the carrier that replaces NAe Sao Paulo beginning in 2025. They’re watching the competition closely, and would prefer to buy the same aircraft.
Saab JAS-39 Gripen NG (Winner)
Brazilian JAS-39
JAS-39BR industrial
(click to view full)

Pros: The JAS-39 Gripen Next Generation program offered key industrial opportunities, along with a high-performance fighter whose price and operating costs are both low. Gripen is likely to be Brazil’s cheapest option over its service life; indeed, it could save its full contracted cost of acquisition and maintenance, relative to a Rafale offer that was reportedly twice as expensive.

Saab offers strong industrial partnerships, and has a record of successful technology transfer agreements. For starters, Brazilian industry would be involved in fighter design stage, not just construction. Beyond late-stage development of the JAS-39E/F, Brazil is the likely launch customer for a naval Sea Gripen, which could add considerable local design work under a future contract. A 2nd factor involves integration source codes, allowing Brazil’s growing arms industry to quickly add the weapons they’re developing for use by the FAB – or indeed, by any Gripen customer. On a very concrete level, the JAS-39BR’s avionics suite will be sourced entirely from Elbit’s Brazilian subsidiary AEL, giving it commonalities with the FAB’s other fighters. JAS-39BRs would also give Brazil’s Air Force immediate integration with the cooperative A-Darter air-air missile that Brazil is developing with fellow Gripen customer South Africa, and deploying on its own modernized A-1M AMX fighters.

Grey Areas: The developmental nature of the JAS-39E/F, which won’t be ready before 2018, is both a plus and a minus for Saab. It’s a minus from the standpoint of technical and delivery risk, especially with the FAB expecting delivery by December 2018. On the other hand, as noted above, it’s a strength from an industrial perspective.

The plane’s radar offers the same kind of duality. The JAS-39 NG includes the Raven AESA radar developed with Selex Galileo, whose long history with Brazil’s FAB includes the F-5BR (Grifo-F) and AMX (Scipio) fighter programs. The Raven is an unusual combination of an AESA radar that can be mechanically pivoted, offering more points of failure, but widening the radar’s scanning cone versus other competitors. That’s a strong plus, but the Raven is less mature than the AESA radars equipping the Super Hornet and Rafale.

The last gray area was the twin-engine issue. The F414 engine that Gripen shares with the Super Hornet offers the advantages of well-tested performance and a long-term customer base, but if it fails, you will lose the plane. Brazil combines vast over-water areas and even vaster wilderness areas to patrol, which often translates into a focus on range and 2-engine safety. The other 2 Brazilian finalists were both 2-engine planes, but it’s worth noting that most of Brazil’s other fighters (Tucano ALX, AMX, Mirage 2000) have just one engine.
JAS-39NG Demo w. IRIS-T, Meteor, Paveways
Gripen NG Demo
(click to view full)

Weaknesses: Saab’s biggest handicap was the industrial and geopolitical weight of its rivals from France & the USA. As the competition unfolded, the NSA’s all-encompassing spying turned the USA’s strength into a weakness, destroying the Super Hornet’s prospects. That created some blowback for Saab as well, however, since their fighter relies on GE F414 engine. That means the Gripen NG partnership of Sweden, Switzerland, and Brazil will be forced to abide by American ITAR rules for export sales, and must live with the understanding that American sanctions could cripple their fighter fleets. Brazil already lives with this for its front-line F-5 fighters, and they decided they could live with it here, too.

Another handicap involves its lack of a naval variant, or even a flying prototype of same, in a competition where both competitors are naval fighters and the customer operates a carrier. Conversion of land-based aircraft for naval aviation is often unrealistic, but Sweden’s insistence on short take-off and landing performance from surfaces like highways gives Gripen a strong base to work from. Saab began serious work on a “Sea Gripen” in March 2011, and can offer Brazilian industry the unique opportunity to be involved in developing the modified aircraft in time for 2025. It’s still a weakness, but it’s a weakness with a hook that may have been attractive.

Offer: The JAS-39NG reportedly ranked 1st in the FAB’s technical trials, had strong support from Brazilian aerospace firms, and offered a complete package worth about $6 billion (about 10 billion Reals), of which $1.5 billion was for maintenance. Saab even began working with a number of Brazilian firms in advance of any contracts, discussing sub-contracting possibilities, and working to improve their industrial proficiency with key technologies like advanced composite materials. Looks like that’s about to pay off.
Dassault’s Rafale F3R
Dassault's FAB Rafale Concept
FAB Rafale-B concept
(click to view full)

Pros: The Rafale had a lot of advantages in this competition. It’s a twin-engine fighter with good range and ordnance capacity, advanced weapons and add-ons, and much better aerial performance than the F/A-18 Super Hornet. It can play the carrier-compatible card very well, since the NAe Sao Paulo was once FS Foch, and Brazil’s next carrier may well be a variant of DCNS’ PA2 design.

It also comes from a trusted supplier. France is seen as a good supplier who avoids political interference and makes good on technology transfers, and the FAb’s experience with the Mirage 2000 offers a common technological and training base. Brazil was already embarked upon a broad set of major defense projects with French firms, and President Lula’s administration clearly favored the Rafale as part of that relationship.
Rafale-M from FS Charles de Gaulle
Rafale-M
(click to view full)

Grey Areas: The Rafale confines Brazil to French weapons and sensors, unless Brazil spends its own money to add some locally-developed ordnance. On the other hand, Brazil has bought multiple versions of French Mirage aircraft during the FAB’s history, and seems unfazed by that requirement. Offers to partner in expanding the Rafale’s options might serve to hit 2 targets at once, by allaying concerns and playing the tech transfer card more strongly.

The Rafale’s January 2012 pick as India’s preferred fighter softens the type’s biggest negative, but India hasn’t signed a contract yet. The Rafale was the only plane in this competition without an existing export customer, and it has lost a lot of international competitions.

Finally, Thales new RBE2-AA AESA radar was a bit of a greay area. It has been installed in French Air Force fighters, so it’s mature by the barest of margins. Unlike the Super Hornet’s APG-79, however, it hasn’t been used much in operations and has no combat record.

Weaknesses: The Rafale’s biggest performance weakness is its lack of a Helmet Mounted Display, which keeps it from reaching its full potential in close-range air combat. Its biggest contest weakness was its price.

Offer: Subsequent events would bear out both the Rafale’s strengths, and its weaknesses. Folha de Sao Paolo reports that it was the most expensive of the 3 finalists, with a price tag of about $8.2 billion US dollars (13.3 billion Reals), plus $4 billion in maintenance contracts over the next 30 years. Dassault reportedly offered the best technology transfer package, and Defence Minister Jobim claims a subsequent $2 billion price reduction, but details remain unclear. The plane remained a strong contender, but a deteriorating economy and a binary choice involving Saab’s Gripen created the perfect storm that crashed the Rafale’s chances.
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
F-18E Super Hornet Parked
F/A-18E, Parked
(click to view full)

Pros: The carrier-compatible Super Hornet’s biggest advantage was a huge user base and wide array of ordnance, with guaranteed future funding for upgrades that Brazil won’t have to invest in. The Advanced Super Hornet, with conformal tanks, internal IRST, and improved electronics, is an early example of that dynamic at work. The Block II’s combat-proven AN/APG-79 AESA radar offers Brazil an attractive technology, volume production lets Boeing start at a price that’s comparable to the single-engine JAS-39′s, a weaker American dollar makes American exports even more affordable, and the potential to turn these planes into EA-18 electronic jamming fighters is a unique selling point for the type.

On the industrial front, Boeing’s passenger aircraft division gives them an attractive magnet for industrial offsets, and in April and June 2012, Boeing strengthened its position by signing a broad cooperation deal with Embraer. Their offering will use wide-screen displays and some other avionics from Elbit’s Brazilian subsidiary AEL.

Grey Areas: The Super Hornet is an American jet, and the vast majority of its equipment and weapons are also American. The USA’s influence in Latin America can help their lobbying, but their image in Latin America can hurt them at the same time. It was always true that a great deal would depend on what kind of relationship Brazil has with Washington around the time the decision is made, and where Brazil wanted that relationship to go. That dynamic began as a positive inducement to buy from Boeing, but ultimately became a fatal weakness.

Concerns about America’s propensity to use arms export bans as a political lever adds another complication to the Super Hornet’s odds, and take away some of the advantage created by its broad arsenal of American weapons and sensors. Sen. McCain reportedly pledged to get a Congressional commitment that the US Congress would not block the sale or transfer of technologies, but that cannot be binding, which left the issue of future spare parts interference etc. as an open question.

A related grey area for the Super Hornet is technology transfer and customization. Exactly how much technology Boeing and the US government were willing to transfer wasn’t clear, though they promised that their offer was competitive. Source code transfer is a related point, and it affects the ease with which Brazil will be able to add its own equipment if the Super Hornet is chosen. Traditionally, the USA doesn’t offer that.
Super Hornet International concept
F/A-18E International
(click to view full)

Weaknesses: The Super Hornet offers poorer aerodynamic performance than other competitors, falling behind in areas like maneuverability, acceleration, sustained Gs, etc.


What really hammered the Super Hornet, however, was the public revelation that the American NSA had been spying on Brazil’s government and Presidential Office. A 2013 negotiation that was supposedly tipping toward the Super Hornet died, and almost took the entire F-X2 competition with it. Instead, the Super Hornet was the only casualty, creating a binary decision between Saab and Dassault.

Offer: After being the long-shot finalist for most of this competition, heavy lobbying by the US government and Boeing appears to have put the Super Hornet back in the running. Folha de Sao Paolo reports that Boeing’s package was worth $7.7 billion dollars (about 12.9 billion reals), of which $1.9 billion was for maintenance. Rousseff reportedly pressed Boeing to improve its industrial participation offer, and Boeing’s subsequent deals with Embraer were significant. The firm just couldn’t fight its competitors and its own government at the same time.
Non-finalists
Eurofighter-RAF Fires ASRAAM
RAF Typhoon & ASRAAM
(click to view full)

Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS/European): Technology transfer may have been an issue, but price was always the biggest stumbling block. Eurofighters consistently sell for $110-130+ million, which doesn’t square well with $2.2 billion for 36 planes. The most capable air-air choice in the group would provide unquestioned regional air superiority, but ground surveillance and strike performance is still provisional (Tranche 1 v6), or unproven (Tranche 2+). This has been fatal in competitions like Singapore’s, and may have been a handicap here.

On the plus side, EADS Airbus offered a potent option for industrial offsets, and other EADS subsidiaries had footholds of their own. Airbus Military’s A400M medium transport may create additional military interest in a long term industrial partnership, and EADS Eurocopter’s Cougar has just become the medium-lift mainstay of Brazil’s future helicopter fleet.
F-35B STOVL Landing
X-35B STOVL
(click for landing)

F-35 Lightning II/ F-16BR (Lockheed Martin) The F-35 would have offered a clear set of performance benefits over competing aircraft. No aircraft in this group could have matched the Lightning’s advanced surveillance capabilities, and surveillance is a big need in Brazil. The F-35B STOVL variant also offered Brazil the ability to operate from small, dispersed runways, and it would have been perfect for aircraft carriers like the Sao Paulo. Unfortunately, technology transfer issues weren’t the F-35′s only problem. Other barriers to an F-35 win included limited opportunities in its industrial structure, questions surrounding air-air performance, the low likelihood of deliveries before 2016 (a concern that was more than vindicated by events), a single engine design – and the potential cancellation of the F-35B variant, which would be most useful to Brazil.

Instead, Lockheed Martin offered Brazil an F-16BR. It was expected to resemble the F-16E/F “Block 70″ variant offered to India, with an AESA radar and built-in IRST/targeting sensors, an uprated engine, etc. Both India and Brazil are fond of Israeli avionics and weapons, and Lockheed Martin has a long history of including those items for Israel and for other customers.

The F-16BR offer shared many of the Super Hornet’s perceived benefits and drawbacks: AESA radar and sensors and weaker American dollar on the plus side, poorer aerodynamic performance and distrust of America on the minus side. The F-16 cannot play the carrier-compatible card like the Super Hornet, and offers only a single-engine design. On the other hand, it did offer wide compatibility with other regional and global air forces.
Su35b
SU-35
(click to view full)

SU-35 (Sukhoi/ Rosoboronexport) This was the aircraft Russia offered in the last round, and the design has matured into a production aircraft since then. Russian tech transfer is trusted. Lack of political interference is trusted absolutely. The aircraft itself would offer an option that’s better than Venezuela’s SU-30MKs, while still presenting itself to the region as an equivalency move. The price would be good, and Sukhoi had some support in the FAB.

On the other hand, service and parts delivery were almost guaranteed to be bad. That gave the FAB real pause. One way around that might be to offer licensed local production. In order to solve the Russian service problem[1], it would also have to extend to the aircraft’s NPO Saturn engines and fitted avionics.
In the end, it didn’t matter. The SU-35S was not a finalist. Sukhoi reportedly made an unsolicited offer anyway, but it didn’t go anywhere.
DID again on the MMRCA :
India is a large country, with coverage needs over a wide area (see map of airbases external link) and on several fronts. One of which is Pakistan, whose JF-17 joint fighter program with China has India’s attention. The IAF currently has 30-32 squadrons worth of serviceable aircraft, depending on which report one reads. This is well below their target of 39 1/2. The number of IAF squadrons still flying MiG-21s of one vintage or another has now dropped to 12, and overall squadron strength is projected to plunge to 27 during the 2012-2017 period.

Lightweight multi-role fighters that could make up for declining aircraft numbers with broader and better capabilities would appear to fit that need, and India’s initial shortlist followed that template. The Mirage 2000 external link and MiG-29 external link were already in service with India in this role, and the JAS-39 Gripen offered a 4th generation aircraft whose costs and profile place it firmly in the lightweight fighter category. These aircraft served as a hedge against the potential failure of the Tejas lightweight Combat Aircraft project, and also offered a more immediate solution to plussing up numbers as existing MiG-21s and MiG-23s/MiG-27s were forced into retirement.

Since those early days, sharply improved relations with the USA have introduced a pair of American planes into the competition, and India’s view of its own needs is changing. Official sources told Jane’s external link in February 2006 that RFPs would be issued to France’s Dassault (Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale), BAE/Saab (JAS-39 Gripen), EADS/BAE (Eurofighter Typhoon), The American firms Lockheed (F-16 external link Block 70) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet), and Russia’s Rosonboronexport (MiG-29OVT external link with thrust vectoring, aka. MiG-35).

That proved to be the case, creating a 2-tiered competition that includes both lightweight and medium fighters. This trend got a sharp boost in March 2006, when the Press Trust of India (PTI) reported a surprise pullout of the Mirage 2000, even though India already flies 40 Mirage 2000Ds, and its senior officials have touted standardization external link as a plus factor. Its place would be taken by the heavier, more advanced, and more expensive Rafale.

India’s changing requirements have also created delays to an already-slow process. For instance, both Jane’s Defence Weekly external link and Defense Industry Daily have covered India’s wish to ‘significantly’ augment their strike capability and range to deal with out-of-area contingencies. That delayed the MRCA RFP, until India’s view of its own needs solidified. Another contributor to these delays has been the need to refine and clarify the new industrial offset rules introduced in 2005, amidst lobbying by American defense firms.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

deejay wrote:
Viv S wrote: Twice the range of the Tejas implies 1000 km+. So in effect you're proposing a scenario where the Rafale/Tejas attack an airfield at least 500 km behind the LAC.
The situation is hypothetical and if you assume take off from LAC then yes the Airfield will be 500 kms or more away provided twice LCA range is 1000 kms with weapons or payload. (This would mean LCA range with weapons is 500 kms and its Combat Radius is 250 Kms, conservative figures me thinks but yes we can work on these).
LCA combat radius is 500km.
member_23694
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

New Avionics For Gripen, Typhoon And Rafale
Europe revamps fighter systems and sensors

http://aviationweek.com/defense/new-avi ... and-rafale
The DDM-NG, part of the Thales/MBDA Spectra defensive avionics suite, comprises two imaging infra-red sensors located on either side of the fighter’s fin-tip pod, each with a hemispherical field of view and jointly providing full spherical coverage other than the area blanked by the fighter’s wing. Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.

It includes more powerful processors and upgrades to the Multi-functional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal datalink and the automatic ground collision avoidance system.

For tactical and strategic reconnaissance missions, F3-R will include in-cockpit replay and analysis of imagery from the Thales Areos long-range oblique photography (Lorop) reconnaissance pod. The Rafale pilot or weapon system operator will be able to review imagery without interrupting the pod’s collection process.

French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems.

Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.

Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.
Aditya_V
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Posts: 14778
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Aditya_V »

Karan M wrote: Twice the range of the Tejas implies 1000 km+. So in effect you're proposing a scenario where the Rafale/Tejas attack an airfield at least 500 km behind the LAC.
The situation is hypothetical and if you assume take off from LAC then yes the Airfield will be 500 kms or more away provided twice LCA range is 1000 kms with weapons or payload. (This would mean LCA range with weapons is 500 kms and its Combat Radius is 250 Kms, conservative figures me thinks but yes we can work on these).
LCA combat radius is 500km.
I think figure will vary based on airfeild altitude mission profile. LCA taking off from Bareliwith Central 1200L droptank and 6 AAMs will have a much higher combat radius than an LCA taking off from Leh with 5 500Kg Bombs and 2 WVR AAMs
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