Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2014 11:14

Karan , As I had suspected this was without a seeker

Desi G3OM Makes BrahMos Smarter

BANGALORE: The country on Tuesday embarked on a major mission in miniaturising missile systems by successfully testing a G3OM (GPS, GLONASS, GAGAN on a Module) receiver on the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. Developed by Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the G3OM receiver has been produced by a Bangalore-based private firm.

Sources told Express that it is for the first time that a G3OM receiver has been used in any missile worldwide. “It is definitely for the first time an Indian missile is using such a complex system and to our knowledge, no nation has so far tested it. This paves way for highly miniaturised missiles in future. The G3OM weighs around 17 grams and provides hit accuracy below five meters,” an official said.

Through G3OM receiver, the missile could take target acquisition from American GPS, Russian GLONASS and India’s GAGAN system at one go.

Combined with inertial navigation system (INS), a G3OM receiver could provide very high accuracies even without a seeker.


Image : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-W1i3JkUOOlI/U ... d.jpg%29to

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2014 11:32

this paves the way to quickly test and productionize
a) desi JDAMski Sudarshan model 1000lb
b) desi chinnaSDB model 250lb to be carried 3-6 on a sexy new AASM style triple pylon
c) desi wing range extention kit

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2014 11:35

SLAM-ER has no radar but rather a optical sensor at the nose right?
for naval use it will need to be inertially guided through waypoints to reach where its IIR sensor can work.
benefit might be passive approach with no emissions vs a harpoon using its radar.

but the whole concept has been a failure though as weather conditions and smoke will defeat IIR..all mainline naval ASMs use radar.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 09 Jul 2014 12:31

Surely there must be more upgrades than a satnav chip to qualify for 'Super'. Otherwise we'll have a long list of 'Super'lative versions every time they replace one foreign component with a better desi one.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 09 Jul 2014 12:46

Very True Singha Ji, This new G3OM unit should be quickly tested on Pinaka Mk-1/2/ Desi Sudharshan MK-2 ER Laser/GPS guided Bomb/ Desi SWAK kit for glide bomb/ Prahaar/Pragati/ Nirbhay/ Nag/Helina/ I also think if this unit is sealed into a heavy duty extremly high G protection casing it can be used on Desi 155/105/81mm artillery rounds.

I think Nag/Helina should have spin-off with a variaty of warhead possibilities including thermobaric, HE, Incendiary, Bunker Busting etc would be useful in a variety of targets.

I think they need to speed up the process of deploying this tech asap into various systems. I hope for the Rafale deal for instance we can avoid purchasing any French weapons stocks at all and rely on exsisting stocks of Mica while quickly deploying most of these PGMs. That give us roughly 2-3 years to field these weapons operationally, should be very feasible if clear deadlines are set.

Idea should be deploy these weapons onto all existing fighter aircraft in our inventory by end of decade in massive numbers.

I would say we need an active PGM stock i.e Laser/GPS guide Bombs of over 100K units.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sooraj » 09 Jul 2014 14:12

Glider Assisted Torpedo, NSTL Visakhapatnam

http://www.iitk.ac.in/aero/akg/index.php?page=torpedo

The goal of this project is to develop a design of a glider configuration which when mounted on the torpedo can assist it to glide. The specified objective is to achieve a minimum range of 25 Km in a maximum duration of 250 sec when the whole assembly is launched from an altitude of 6 Km with a circular error probability of 500m. This study posed interesting problems in terms of high wing loading and development of compact mechanisms owing to the space constraints. Mechanisms are required to set the wing and tail in positions after launch, which otherwise are aligned with the torpedo and folded respectively, so that the system can fit in the bomb bay. Indigenous mechanisms are proposed to meet the requirements. Wing loading is very high resulting from the heavy weight of torpedo and geometrical constraints on design of wing. The assembly after launch has to be controlled with the help of an on-board autopilot using integrated GPS-INS so as to accommodate it in the flight envelop provided by NSTL, Visakhapatnam. Apart from glider design, this project involves evaluation of stability of the entire system during flight, trajectory simulation and performance against atmospheric disturbances.The mechanisms are developed using Autodesk Inventor software and the stress analysis on them for different loads is also carried out using the same software.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby merlin » 09 Jul 2014 14:25

Icing on the cake would have been if GAGAN could augment GLONASS also instead of just augmenting GPS signals. They GLONASS+GAGAN would probably be as accurate as GPS+GLONASS+GAGAN when GPS is denied.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2014 14:47

sooraj wrote:Glider Assisted Torpedo, NSTL Visakhapatnam

http://www.iitk.ac.in/aero/akg/index.php?page=torpedo

The goal of this project is to develop a design of a glider configuration which when mounted on the torpedo can assist it to glide. The specified objective is to achieve a minimum range of 25 Km in a maximum duration of 250 sec when the whole assembly is launched from an altitude of 6 Km with a circular error probability of 500m. This study posed interesting problems in terms of high wing loading and development of compact mechanisms owing to the space constraints. Mechanisms are required to set the wing and tail in positions after launch, which otherwise are aligned with the torpedo and folded respectively, so that the system can fit in the bomb bay. Indigenous mechanisms are proposed to meet the requirements. Wing loading is very high resulting from the heavy weight of torpedo and geometrical constraints on design of wing. The assembly after launch has to be controlled with the help of an on-board autopilot using integrated GPS-INS so as to accommodate it in the flight envelop provided by NSTL, Visakhapatnam. Apart from glider design, this project involves evaluation of stability of the entire system during flight, trajectory simulation and performance against atmospheric disturbances.The mechanisms are developed using Autodesk Inventor software and the stress analysis on them for different loads is also carried out using the same software.


Am I reading too much into this but any chance we can have air launched Heavyweight Torpedo will be air launched, or are they refering to the heavyweight of a light weight torpedo.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby krishnan » 09 Jul 2014 14:49

air launched HT , which glides to the target area

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2014 15:18

a Heavyweight Torpedo will probably weigh a lot, wonder if this package can be carried by a helicopter even NLCA, Mig 29K or Jaguar.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby krishnan » 09 Jul 2014 15:28

that will also lead to a heavier wings

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 09 Jul 2014 16:00

Austin wrote: . . . this was without a seeker

The Block-IIIs, because of their operational mode, should not need a seeker

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vic » 09 Jul 2014 16:07

Rather than using super costly, quasi imported, fake JV, Brahmos, we should use Prahaar with G3OM for missions that do not require a seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2014 16:36

its not a HT but LT meant for the P8 class of a/c.
the idea seems to be same as P8A is supposed to get for the role....unlike P3, the P8 is more fuel economical at 20,000ft than low on the water,
but dropping a raw torpedo from 20kft will smash it to bits on impact, so a gps guided wing kit to make it glide at slower speed and release just prior to splashdown is in the works.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/lon ... dos-03340/

this avoid the plane itself having to come down 6km in altitude for torpedo launch. it gets a better fov for radar and passive sensors to scan the sea from up there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Picklu » 09 Jul 2014 18:37

Austin wrote:Karan , As I had suspected this was without a seeker
.....
Combined with inertial navigation system (INS), a G3OM receiver could provide very high accuracies even without a seeker.


Even though it can, not sure if that was actually the case or not as it does not explicitly said so.

The replacement of seeker and replacing the same with a 17 gm SoC will cause severe CoG issue and either need redesign or balast. No such mention so far.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2014 20:21

NRao wrote:Desi G3OM Makes BrahMos Smarter

Multiple takes:
* "smarter" B'hos
* Covers all angles (as far signals)
* But, most imp: "miniaturising" (IMHO). With every missile trying to be crammed into the bay of a next gen plane, this is by far the most imp feature.

The country on Tuesday embarked on a major mission in miniaturising missile systems by successfully testing a G3OM (GPS, GLONASS, GAGAN on a Module) receiver on the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. Developed by Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the G3OM receiver has been produced by a Bangalore-based private firm.

Sources told Express that it is for the first time that a G3OM receiver has been used in any missile worldwide. “It is definitely for the first time an Indian missile is using such a complex system and to our knowledge, no nation has so far tested it. This paves way for highly miniaturised missiles in future. The G3OM weighs around 17 grams and provides hit accuracy below five meters,” an official said.

Through G3OM receiver, the missile could take target acquisition from American GPS, Russian GLONASS and India’s GAGAN system at one go.

Combined with inertial navigation system (INS), a G3OM receiver could provide very high accuracies even without a seeker.



Looks like G3OM is a game changer. Appears to be tested without INS.

Like the OM in the end!!!

Picklu is right that cg and mass properties will be affected and needs ballast or dead weight for existing systems.
New systesm can use the chip ab initio and dont need the ballast.


Lets wait for the chip specs as far as qual environments go.

Also sure that it will operate with one of the two systems blocked ie GPS and GLONASS.

If it needs to operate in GPS/GLONASS dead environment it needs the INS as Gagan footprint is Indian sub-continent only. I might be wrong.


Wish a few were fired at ISIS as a demo.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 09 Jul 2014 20:37

GPS jammers are already available and it won't be hard for either China or TSP to build jammers for GLONASS or IRNSS. The missile will need to operate in spite of all sat-navs getting jammed. So - sat-nav would probably be used for midcourse guidance and to correct INS errors and seeker would probably be used for the terminal guidance.

That they tested using only satnav would be to check its functioning. But in an operation scenario, I don't know why they would rely on sat-nav.

PS: I'm now confused between IRNSS & GAGAN

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 09 Jul 2014 20:47

Surprised it doesn't have IRNSS support, If that is indeed the case. IRNSS receivers should already by now right?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Jul 2014 04:38

srin: GAGAN (GPS-Aided Geo-Augmented Navigation) is for navigation using GPS signals by providing error-correction codes. It doesnt function outside of a GPS/GLONASS type system. IRNSS is India's version of GPS albeit over our subcontinent.

I am sure there are plans to integrate GAGAN with IRNSS also

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2014 05:36

(Is it IRNSS or IRNASS?)

Either way that acronym, in the future may have to change. Either the IAF or IN has requested that it go global!! In which case it would be the IGNASS.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2014 05:43

I was going to mention this in the Turkey thread, but here goes.

Everyone and his/her Grandfather, in the missile business, will be trying to make every missile they have small enough to be crammed into the bay of a "5th Gen" plane (whenever they come by). This and that will get small, while maintaining their capability/effectiveness. Fins will be made to fold (nothing new), new -small - motors without decline in range. Etc, etc, etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 10 Jul 2014 11:18

I think the seeker would not be so costly, its just a radar similar to any other ASM with range of around 50km and sea clutter removal sw. the Klub will have similar one or maybe even the same. even AAM have radars of 20km range(smaller aperture) and similar anti-ECM/anti-decoy algorithms...
its the engine & associated kit (kerosene ramjet) which I heard is fully imported from russia and costs a lot.

there is no way we can delete the radar and just depend on GPS/GLONASS which are not under our control or IRNSS which can be jammed or limited sats attacked by ground based laser or ASAT missiles which we know cheen is already testing. it is primarily a ASM against mobile targets and needs that radar. ... unless we fork() the brahmos tree and make a radar-less version with terrain scene matching ... not sure how thats going to work on a Mach2.5+ missile screaming along...for subsonic missiles it is proven. afaik no supersonic LACM missile uses scene matching.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 10 Jul 2014 12:26

For Missiles like Nirbhay/Brahmos Mk-1/2 & Mini, this G3OM guidance isn't enough, they will need to work along active/passive radar/EO or other types of seekers to ensure target kill. However, this little module is plenty useful and needs to be deployed on all the missiles/PGMs being developed. Prahaar/Pinaka/Shaurya should certainly have this to ensure precise targetting. I think it would be most useful on the Pinaka/Prahaar. We have plenty of Pinaka Mk-1/2 in order, having massive stocks of these would allow us to have econimical as well as effective way in targetting large scale targets.

I wonder what happened to the Prahaar, no news about it, it should be pushed in service asap.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 10 Jul 2014 12:40

Seeker means the antenna , associated electronics , power supply and integrating with INS etc that costs some big amount. I read a DRDO Scientist in context of Astra quote saying seeker and related electronic alone cost 60 % of a missile.

The speed and range that Brahmos travel and the time needed for the same would mean very low error generated by INS once you zero at during launch , GPS/GLONASS/IRNSS would be nice to have but wont be an absolutely critical for Brahmos even without a seeker for fixed targets whose co-ordinates are known or can be procured in real time via UAV/SAT etc

Also jamming a coded Secure Signal for Mil Grade GLONASS/IRNSS would be harder for any adversary.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jul 2014 13:41


Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 10 Jul 2014 14:06

for the Astra is perhaps true...Agat has many both indic and sinic money selling seekers. the warhead is tiny and it uses basic solid rocket motor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23891 » 10 Jul 2014 15:04

+1 Austin Ji.

This version of Brahmos-III seems to be special operation one, solely meant to hit the nuclear arsenals on the move. I hope with this we have achieved the ability to hit the high value target on the move from very long distances.

Please correct me , if I am wrong. TIA.

Regards
Praval

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rakall » 10 Jul 2014 15:19

Praval wrote:+1 Austin Ji.

This version of Brahmos-III seems to be special operation one, solely meant to hit the nuclear arsenals on the move. I hope with this we have achieved the ability to hit the high value target on the move from very long distances.

Please correct me , if I am wrong. TIA.

Regards
Praval


The new version of Brahmos is for "static" targets.

for things that move, like the ships - the version with RF seeker will be used.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 10 Jul 2014 21:17

Austin, In Chinese folklore there is story of a hero figure who kills the monster/villain hiding behind a moutain!
The Brahmos Mini looks like that kind of weapon!!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 13 Jul 2014 07:23

I wonder how the mediocre Indian defence industry, which cannot make anything on its own, is primitive etc - manages to come up with stuff like G3OM - must be a reverse engineered/Russian device for sure etc, since all our rtd experts who were busy pontificating on the media/TV etc about how only imports/FDI could save India can never be wrong. /sarc off.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 13 Jul 2014 10:24

The G3OM with the imaging sensor from NAG & the FOG would get Hafiz Suarez in his toilet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 13 Jul 2014 11:01

I wonder how the mediocre Indian defence industry, which cannot make anything on its own, is primitive etc - manages to come up with stuff like G3OM

Should the above be interpreted as, since we made G3OM so our defence industry has suddenly become advanced.
Wonder why we are still importing jet engines, swordfish radars, PGMs , seekers from abroad . Army has been looking for ultra-light howitzers for last 10 years, wonder why none of the advanced labs come up proactively with an indigenous product till now to serve the country. This time too the fault of army [but they bought Dhanush right].

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 13 Jul 2014 16:40

Missile Technology Basics - David Wright

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-webinars/S ... -19-14.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 13 Jul 2014 17:34

Austin wrote:Missile Technology Basics - David Wright

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-webinars/S ... -19-14.pdf


Thank You, good reading and clearer understanding.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 13 Jul 2014 19:03

Wonder why we are still importing jet engines, swordfish radars, PGMs , seekers from abroad . Army has been looking for ultra-light howitzers for last 10 years, wonder why none of the advanced labs come up proactively with an indigenous product till now to serve the country. This time too the fault of army [but they bought Dhanush right].


No, the above should be read as that given proper funding & direction, Indian industry and labs can do a lot, and those who look only towards imports as a panacea can learn something.

Next, it helps to get your basics right before trying to score points! Advanced labs, industry et al can do diddly squat until the GOI approves funding. It is only this year for the first time, that funding has been given as has been asked for and that too for prior projects in the R&D sector. The paucity of facts in your claims can be judged easily by the fact that swordfish radars - as versus whats claimed in media reports - are being made within India (as you'd have known if you merely tracked the industry progress). The media of course can't distinguish between swordfish or any other program!
But don't worry, you too now are welcome to go onto a media panel to inform everyone about primitive Indian industry is since they can only make G3OM etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cosmo_R » 13 Jul 2014 19:13

Singha wrote:... the brahmos tree and make a radar-less version with terrain scene matching ... not sure how thats going to work on a Mach2.5+ missile screaming along...for subsonic missiles it is proven. afaik no supersonic LACM missile uses scene matching.


Isn't the Brahmos supersonic only in terminal velocity?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2014 19:15

No its supersonic all the way.

the klub is like you said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 13 Jul 2014 19:29

Cosmo_R wrote:
Singha wrote:... the brahmos tree and make a radar-less version with terrain scene matching ... not sure how thats going to work on a Mach2.5+ missile screaming along...for subsonic missiles it is proven. afaik no supersonic LACM missile uses scene matching.


Isn't the Brahmos supersonic only in terminal velocity?


Thats the Klub

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 13 Jul 2014 20:03

Karan M wrote:No, the above should be read as that given proper funding & direction, Indian industry and labs can do a lot, and those who look only towards imports as a panacea can learn something.

Next, it helps to get your basics right before trying to score points! Advanced labs, industry et al can do diddly squat until the GOI approves funding. It is only this year for the first time, that funding has been given as has been asked for and that too for prior projects in the R&D sector. The paucity of facts in your claims can be judged easily by the fact that swordfish radars - as versus whats claimed in media reports - are being made within India (as you'd have known if you merely tracked the industry progress). The media of course can't distinguish between swordfish or any other program!
But don't worry, you too now are welcome to go onto a media panel to inform everyone about primitive Indian industry is since they can only make G3OM etc.


Sorry Sir , you are quoting on convenience.
With the same lack of funding and same lack of direction you have the G3OM which everyone is very proud about (including me).
Who gave the direction for G3OM ? Who requested funds for ?
What one should understand is try to set priorities right. Understand the limitations of funds and capabilities and go for low hanging stuffs.
Asking funds for jet engines and not mastering for ex. a ultra light weight howitzer when there is requirement for so many years and providing it to the army is something I fail to understand. At the end of the day you have neither.

Regarding " funding has been given as has been asked for and that too for prior projects in the R&D sector" , it would be too naive to assume that because we have additional funding this year so we have all the R&D backlog cleared next year.

Regarding media panel etc , sorry I am least interested in such suggestion. Thanks


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