Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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tsarkar
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jul 2014 17:32

Some new pictures of INS Kolkata have been released in the media http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3emaECKhZEU/U ... OLKATA.jpg

The 64 LRSAM add a quantum leap in AD capabilities over the 48 Shtil1 and 32 Barak1 SAMs of the Delhi class.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 10 Jul 2014 18:14

^^^
where are the fire control radars for 4 AK 630 on this ship?

Also, i can only count 32 SAM (8x2 in front and 8x2 at back).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 10 Jul 2014 18:32

I believe STAR is capable of acting as Fire control radar for MG and AK-630 similar to APAR.

Austin
I am skeptical on whole Amur with Brahmos. i highly doubt it is possible to plug in 8 brahmos vls like that onto existing design with minimal performance impact without extensive testing we don't know what impact it will have. Even the LA class can only be fitted with 12 mk-41 VLS. 8 Brahmos weighs twice as much as 12 MK-41 VLS.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jul 2014 18:58

^^
It doesn't require any fire control radars.

The ELTA 2248 is an Active Phased Array Radar providing accurate long distance tracking information that is fed into the missile before launch or via datalink after launch. The missile has an active seeker of its own for end game targeting.

Entering service same time as the US SM-6

AK-630 is similarly cued using accurate tracking information from the APAR

Saves topweight.

I believe each VLS cell has two rows of eight missiles. Its a very small compact missile weighing 275 kg vis-à-vis 720 kg of Shtil1 or Akash.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 10 Jul 2014 19:49

Tsarkar,

Do you think they Barak-8 are dual packed to allow for larger missiles to be fitted in the future?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Jul 2014 22:04

No, each missile has a separate silo & is hot launched unlike Brahmos that is cold launched.

I'm going by the diameter of the BrahMos 670 mm to the diameter of the MRSAM 225 mm

This is the most informative description of Barak-8 / LRSAM that came directly from DRDO http://static.expressindia.com/expressi ... ssiles.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby jahaju » 11 Jul 2014 00:29

Last edited by jahaju on 11 Jul 2014 17:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 11 Jul 2014 10:29

tsarkar wrote:Some new pictures of INS Kolkata have been released in the media http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3emaECKhZEU/U ... OLKATA.jpg

The 64 LRSAM add a quantum leap in AD capabilities over the 48 Shtil1 and 32 Barak1 SAMs of the Delhi class.


I'm not sure I spotted the LRSAM VLS. Is it the two side by side 16 cell VLS behind the Brahmos VLS? If so those are really small! Can spot two more just amidship (hope that's the right term!). No Barak-1 launchers? So only 64 LRSAM total for AAW?

These ships pack a hell of a punch. We should be building more instead of just 3+4.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 11 Jul 2014 10:53

tsarkar wrote:^^
AK-630 is similarly cued using accurate tracking information from the APAR

Saves topweight.

I believe each VLS cell has two rows of eight missiles. Its a very small compact missile weighing 275 kg vis-à-vis 720 kg of Shtil1 or Akash.


I think discussion on SAM count on Kolkata class was done earlier on this forum.

Comparing with VLS on Delhi class, they are of same size and dimensions, meaning total count is no more then 32 (8x2 in front and 8x2 in back). Although I would be happy to know if its 64 :mrgreen:

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 11 Jul 2014 11:41

^^ The topview is indeed clear, and indicates 4 x 8 VLS. Even though the missile is quite compact.its interesting such a powerful radar but only 32 missiles to exploit it

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 11 Jul 2014 12:23

tsarkar wrote:^^ The topview is indeed clear, and indicates 4 x 8 VLS. Even though the missile is quite compact.its interesting such a powerful radar but only 32 missiles to exploit it


Maybe in a network centric warfare it can cue Barak SAMs from other ships, its a big maybe.

IMHO current VLS seems to be of Barak 1, maybe as a stop gap measure until Barak 8 comes online. Because the diameter of LRSAM (with booster) is 540 MM (http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... -missiles/), more then double the diameter of Barak 1. Hence i dont think it will fit into same VLS as for Barak 1.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Jul 2014 16:09

8)



Indian Navy P15A Destroyer Kolkata

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jul 2014 16:14

imo there seems enough space to fit another 16 in the front and another 8-16 in the back near the barak1 cells. there is no cause for the small barak1 cells to occupy prime real estate there. should be moved to sides and a barak8 cell put.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Jul 2014 16:31

Barak-8 must be an expensive SAM hence limited 32 SAM , Seems that Barak-1 too does not have its own radar so every thing guided by MF-STAR.

Over all impression is its a well balanced multipurpose ship , The deck space is much more cleaner and has more space and so is its superstructure compared to older little cramped P-15 Delhi.

I hope they can quickly complete the Barak-8 test and make it operational.
Last edited by Austin on 11 Jul 2014 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prahaar » 11 Jul 2014 17:31

Austin wrote:Barak-8 must be an expensive SAM hence limited 32 SAM , Seems that Barak-1 too does not have its own radar so every thing guided by MF-STAR.

Over all impression is its a well balanced multipurpose ship , The deck space is much more cleaner and has more space and so is its superstructure compared to older little cramped P-15 Delhi.

I hope they can quickly complete the Barak-8 test and make it operational.


How would you comment about the superstructure + radar mast w.r.t stability? I guess it is the tallest destroyer/frigate (in Indian Navy). In proportion to the tonnage, how does the height compare with the US DDGs?
Last edited by prahaar on 11 Jul 2014 18:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 11 Jul 2014 17:40

These RBUs take up a lot of real estate on every IN ship.

Are they needed on every other ship, even with dedicated role of setting up air defense zone?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Jul 2014 17:49


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bmallick » 11 Jul 2014 17:58

I think the ship is provisioned for 32 Barak-8's only. We are thinking that it is a AAW destroyer, hence expecting it should have atleast 64 long range sams. Whereas the fitment of weapon system clearly indicate that it is a multi-role ship. In fact it packs the biggest punch of all IN ships in terms of AShM.

Also, IIRC, India has bought 7 Barak-1 systems only. No further deals have been signed. Hence, we cannot expect every ship to have Barak-1. Already the existing 7 are fitted onto existing ships. Even for Kolkata class or Vik too, we would either have to buy more systems or cannibalize existing ships.

Kolkata class, definitely has lots of more space, right in around the place where the existing SAM VLS are present. Maybe, they might fit in SRSAM later or more Barak-7 if required.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 11 Jul 2014 20:39

Yeah unless they are somehow dual packed no more than 32 can be fitted in, those vls need to be mk 41 sized to allow that and they seem no where close to that. Not sure why there are still reports of 48 missiles unless they included brahmos.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby brar_w » 11 Jul 2014 22:25

Singha wrote:unlike the ramshackle look of MDL and our mumbai naval docks, the pearl harbour dockside looks very neat indeed. no piles of debris and oil stains anywhere despite supporting the largest and highest duty cycle navy on earth.
similar neat and spacious look in their groton SSN base.
they know how to build durable military infra for sure.


http://vimeo.com/99873090

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 12 Jul 2014 02:39

More INS Kamorta pics:

http://thoughtso.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -corvette/

Looking hopelessly under-armed compared to the slightly larger Talwar & Goadavari/Brahmaputra classes. I wonder if it would have been better to build a 15m larger boat that could fit an extra heli and Klub ASW Variant VLS Missiles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mihir » 12 Jul 2014 04:24

Austin wrote:Seems that Barak-1 too does not have its own radar so every thing guided by MF-STAR.

Are you sure that the MF-STAR is capable of fire control? That S-band antenna shouldn't be very good for that kind kind thing, unless it has X-band PCMs too, like the Rajendra does. :-?

Also what is the little rectangular antenna at the foot of the mast?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 12 Jul 2014 07:39

As per brochure it is capable of providing illumination for semi active radar guided missiles and gun control.

Titash
It was never designed to carry Ashm not sure why people kept propagating the idea it was supposed to have Klub and P 16s don't have RBU 6000. It's good 3d car was incorporated its superior to Fregat radar and hopefully we can integrate it with shtil and start replacing it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Jul 2014 09:44

Mihir wrote:Are you sure that the MF-STAR is capable of fire control? That S-band antenna shouldn't be very good for that kind kind thing, unless it has X-band PCMs too, like the Rajendra does. :-?


I dont see any other radar out there for Barak-1 , but need high res pic of the ship for better close up.
As of now I think it would be MF-STAR , although for a antenna placed high on mast the FOV of Radar for something flying low and close to guide Barak-1 would be challenge

Also what is the little rectangular antenna at the foot of the mast?


Garpun Bal Surface Search/FC radar for anti-ship missile
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Arti ... cle14k.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 Jul 2014 09:52

prahaar wrote:How would you comment about the superstructure + radar mast w.r.t stability? I guess it is the tallest destroyer/frigate (in Indian Navy). In proportion to the tonnage, how does the height compare with the US DDGs?


Delhi design are know to have excellent sea keeping qualities and that is something many naval officer have mentioned in interaction , To me the new superstructure/mast they dont look top heavy and the design much more cleaner

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jul 2014 11:09

Titash-> I think Kamkorta carries 8 klub missiles, don't know whether they are the anti-ship or the anti submarine variants which carry a light weight Torpedo and fly close to the target and parachute into the sea.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jul 2014 12:47

sadly it does not carry ASMs. the only potential way is quad packs of Uran near the funnel somewhere.
there is no VLS cell between the two RBU units, just a fire barrier to permit launching in both directions without any damage from blowback.

http://cdn2.shipspotting.com/photos/mid ... 453915.jpg

lack of even basic ASM means it will be quite vulnerable when alone to even much smaller 500-1000t enemy FAC/corvettes armed with chinese ASm/harpoon looking to launch sneak attacks. rest of the fit is good. I guess it is reliant on the sea king replacement heli to have some sort of ASM, but thats not 24x7 and may not work in adverse weather.

like a isolated elk it will be vulnerable when the wolves and hyenas sneak up.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 12 Jul 2014 15:52

I think I am the only one who did not like Kolkata's looks ... Delhi class and Rajput still tops for me

All major new warship building programs that we have witnessed in the post ~2000 era have produced results:

Project-17
Project-15A
Project-28
NOPV (Saryu class)
Vikramaditya

We now need a program to replace all assorted missile corvettes. Veer, Kora, Khukri classes count more than 10 warships and can be replaced by a modified P-28 design. The RBU-6000 can be replaced by a VLS Brahmos system. Alternatively inclined launchers can be placed on open deck space above the torpedo tubes to add the offensive element.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanjay » 12 Jul 2014 17:23

Does the Kamorta have the Barak sam ? I know there were reports earlier but now I see no mention.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vishnu » 12 Jul 2014 17:37

Surprised at what I'm seeing on the first of the Project 15A destroyers - Kolkata - 4 banks of 8 cell Barak VLS launchers (2 fore and 2 aft) for a total of 32 surface to air missiles. As an anti-air platform, the Kolkata seems considerably weaker than its modern contemporaries.
Examples ...
The Spanish F-100 class (6300 tonnes): 96 SAMs
De Zeven Provinciën-class frigates (6050 tonnes): 64 SAMs
Sachsen Class frigate (5800 tonnes): 77 SAMs
Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate (6645 tonnes): 56 SAMs.

Is there a weight penalty here because we decided to fit 16 massive Brahmos missiles ?
If this was meant to be an anti-air platform .. then there seem to have been significant compromises, a pity since the MFSTAR is probably the most advanced system in the world this side of the AEGIS.

Am I right in any of this ?

Cheers
Vishnu

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 12 Jul 2014 17:54

Sanjay wrote:Does the Kamorta have the Barak sam ? I know there were reports earlier but now I see no mention.


Yes, you may note it from the prominent Barak directors installled fore and aft.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 12 Jul 2014 18:11

Finally its handed over. Phew! It missed so many deadlines.

Mazagon Dock delivers P-15A Class stealth destroyer INS Kolkata to Indian Navy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jul 2014 19:16

imo those Brahmos silos are going to be kitted with only 8 ASms and rest would be Nirbhay later probably. this is because we lack any number of submarines to unleash nirbhay and none of our IAF planes can carry a missile so large. its either ships or nothing , as the limited number of n-subs has to be reserved for k4 and k15 n-tipped missiles.

the small barak1 area behind the helicopter hanger can probably be replaced with a 32-cell barak8 unit and the barak1s moved to either side if they wanted.

but with adverse comments on cost of the barak1, the barak8 will surely have a hefty price tag.

btw I believe none of the western AAW ships incl USN ones carry a full theoritical load of SAMs whether aster, sm2 or essm. I doubt the euro navies have the cash lying around for full and multiple reloads even. khan probably keeps it 60% filled with specific 100% reloads during serious conflict deployments onlee.

we really need those 32 extra barak8 though..no excuses.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Jul 2014 19:21

btw the Type45 Daring class has 48 cell A50 sylver VLS.

now it carries mix of ASter15 and ASter30, but the ASter15 is again 1 per tube and not n-packed.
so that way it has lesser number of SAMs than the 64 on P15A, albeit with the flexibility to carry 48 Aster30 alone if needed.

only the naval crotale can be 4-packed in the A50.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanjay » 12 Jul 2014 19:43

Yes, you may note it from the prominent Barak directors installled fore and aft.[/quote]

Saw them - was worried about availability of missiles

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby svinayak » 12 Jul 2014 21:10

titash wrote:More INS Kamorta pics:

http://thoughtso.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -corvette/

Looking hopelessly under-armed compared to the slightly larger Talwar & Goadavari/Brahmaputra classes. I wonder if it would have been better to build a 15m larger boat that could fit an extra heli and Klub ASW Variant VLS Missiles.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jul 2014 21:31

^^ There are two Barak-8 variants, both jointly developed by DRDO & IAI, with Indian funding.

LR-SAM is the naval variant with a 60-70 km range without booster
MR-SAM is the IAF variant with a 100+ km range with booster

The paradox of Medium Range outranging Long Range is explained by the context of use. For sea based deployment, 70 km is long range whereas for land based deployment, 100+ km is medium range.

However, I always seen/heard plans for these ships being equipped with 64 Barak-8 and 4 AK-630, with a pair of AK-630 to be replaced during mid-life refit by the yet-to-start SR-SAM project.

What an anti-climax.

Note the height of the mast, though, for increased radar horizon.

Regarding INS Kamorta, the fore part of the hanger presently housing liferafts could easily accommodate 2 x 8 Barak-1 or future SR-SAM.

Those directors are Contraves Oerlikon TMX license manufactured as BEL Shikari GFCS for controlling the OTO 76 and AK-630, and not ELTA 2221.

There can be a GP variant to replace the Kukhri class with a BrahMos VLS replacing the RBU units.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 12 Jul 2014 23:50

Singha wrote:we really need those 32 extra barak8 though..no excuses.


The Kolkata is only the first of a long line of frigates/destroyers to carry AESA + long range SAMs. We have 3x P-15A, 4x P-15B, and 7x P-17A that will all feature this armament. 14 heavy AAW escorts is enough for 2 carrier battle groups.

Here's the text of the navy's release to shiv aroor:

"The ship’s keel was laid on 20 Nov 2006 and the ship was launched on 19 April 2010. The ship is 110 m long and displaces about 3,400 T. With four diesel engines in CODAD (combined diesel & diesel) propulsion she has a max speed of about 25 knots. She is capable of carrying an integral ASW helicopter. Her manning comprises of 13 officers and 176 sailors. The formidable array of weapons include heavy weight torpedoes, ASW rockets, 76 mm Medium Range gun and two guns as Close-in-Weapon System (CIWS) with dedicated fire control systems, chaff systems and the PDMS which would be installed in due course. Her sensors include the most advanced bow mounted sonar, advanced ESM system and direction finder, an air surveillance radar with capability to detect target exceeding 200 Km and an active towed array system which would be installed in due course"

So it ain't as under-armed as it appears. It will have space for the active radar Maitri SAM (or RAM if one reads into the navy's recent CIWS RFP) + major ASW capability in terms or sensor/weapons/quieting fit.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Jul 2014 04:59

Would it be fair to say that in terms of # of simultaneously launchable AA missiles, Kolkota is under-armed compared to Delhi?

The former has 32 Barak-8 & the latter has 32 Barak-1 with 2 Shtil systems.

Granted that Barak-8 is longer ranged than Barak-1, but I cant escape the feeling that there is no big improvement in the anti-air department

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Jul 2014 07:27

There simply is no time to wait for the Maitri - best thing is to go ahead with the proven Barak-1 and go ahead. The Maitri file has been pending with the UPA for several years and has been delayed shamefully, with all the development buffer eaten up. The money for SRSAM was used for programs like MNREGA as was the norm. While DRDO has gone ahead with associated radar development judging by the work on the MMSR, there will be tons of work required for C3I, missile itself not to mention integration. It will easily take 3-4 years to get to full up testing, and the ship cannot wait so long without a CIWS /missile system.


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