West Asia News and Discussions

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 15 Jul 2014 20:54

Dilbu wrote:Indiscriminate killing of children does not help Israel in any way. In fact it only helps the likes of Hamas to create more terrorists. I don't think anyone on BRF will deny the arguments in favour of Israel. But they can't just go in and kill kids. It is simply not acceptable. We all know rabid Paki terrorists will kill Indian kids without batting an eye lid if they get a chance but how many of us want IA to go in and bomb a Paki kindergarten in response to this. Kill the terrorist by all means but spare the innocent as much as possible. This attitude of indifference will not help Israel in the long run.

Israel has no policy options left, from what I can see. If they attack the Hamas, the Hamas hides behind the kids, and there are civilian casualties. If they don't attack, Hamas and its sister organisations will pick off Israelis one by one, as opportunity offers. The point is - there is no policy option that will deter these terrorists, not by peace, not by war, not by love, not by terror. Israel cannot get peace at any price except that of its extinction. With the modern rules of combat that Israel is bound by, and Hamas is not, the feeling is that Israel cannot deter the terrorist attacks by any means, and Hamas thinks it is winning. So, Israelis are doing what they can to stop the Hamas by making it feel huge pain. But the pain they are allowed by modern rules of combat to cause is so small for the Palestinian community that it is inadequate to stop further attacks. Within Israel itself, the attacks have been very popular and apart from the usual Leftist suspects, the Hebrew press has been very supportive of it. But this is a very delicate balance and something has to give, sooner rather than later. I suspect that the next Israeli government will be even more to the right, and will push the envelope much further. But even they have no real plans to deal with the Palestinians. Don't know where it will end.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 15 Jul 2014 20:56

ramana wrote: Israel is not going out of its way to kill children. It is responding with same indiscriminate use of force as Hamas with its rockets.

It would be more accurate to say that Israelis are no longer concerned about civilian casualties while attacking Hamas. They are still firing their rockets and missiles at Hamas only; they just don't care if there are other civilians in the vicinity when they do.

So far media is shwoing the Israeli use of force but where is the outrage for the Hamas rocket attacks?

Its classic case of underdog cheering even when the dog is wolf.

Ramana-ji,
Focus on Hamas attacks will never happen. You should know why.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 15 Jul 2014 21:21

Ramana sir you know I have no love lost for Hamas but somehow this policy of not caring for civilian casualities just do not feel right.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 15 Jul 2014 21:22

Dilbu wrote:Ramana sir you know I have no love lost for Hamas but somehow this policy of not caring for civilian casualities just do not feel right.

and what is the alternative??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2014 21:30

Reality whether in India or Israel is the sikular middle class is breeding itself into extinction.
lots and lots of ppl stopping at one kid only.

there is hardly any Islamic society except maybe turkey showing similar trends.

in the race to gain footprint and provide foot soldiers, Islamic societies have a unbeatable lead.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 15 Jul 2014 21:33

Dilbu wrote:Indiscriminate killing of children does not help Israel in any way. In fact it only helps the likes of Hamas to create more terrorists. I don't think anyone on BRF will deny the arguments in favour of Israel. But they can't just go in and kill kids. It is simply not acceptable. We all know rabid Paki terrorists will kill Indian kids without batting an eye lid if they get a chance but how many of us want IA to go in and bomb a Paki kindergarten in response to this. Kill the terrorist by all means but spare the innocent as much as possible. This attitude of indifference will not help Israel in the long run.

You are making it sound like Israeli soldiers are rounding up the kids in palestinian homes, tying their hands and shooting them execution style. Which is not true. So either you are ill informed or you have an agenda.

As far as helping the likes of Hamas to create more terrorists is concerned, the acts by Israel by themselves matter very less. It is the perception of Israel which is more important. And Hamas/Islamists specializes in manufacturing such perceptions which have absolutely no link with truth and reason.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 15 Jul 2014 21:38

Singha wrote:Reality whether in India or Israel is the sikular middle class is breeding itself into extinction.
lots and lots of ppl stopping at one kid only.

there is hardly any Islamic society except maybe turkey showing similar trends.

in the race to gain footprint and provide foot soldiers, Islamic societies have a unbeatable lead.

True very true. Wars and long drawn struggles are always fought and won by extra sons. By adopting family planning, Hindus have screwed themselves. A truly master self goal. Islamists are not winning on basis of courage or tactical skill. They are just taking over block by block peacefully.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2014 21:41

Dilbu wrote:Ramana sir you know I have no love lost for Hamas but somehow this policy of not caring for civilian casualities just do not feel right.

Dilbu, You need to think of this model.

Islamists are predators and non-Muslims are prey despite living in the human world.
The Islamists think its their right to hunt prey irregardless of the inhumanity of it all.

However in human world the prey can change, develop options and fight back.

And the predator complains when they see fightback and blame the victim for fighting back.

Its in Christian Political West's interest to support the underwolf against the fightback from the prey.
Don't fall for that.

Political West is Christian despite all the veneers of secularism, modernism etc.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 15 Jul 2014 21:54

darshhan wrote:
Singha wrote:Reality whether in India or Israel is the sikular middle class is breeding itself into extinction.
lots and lots of ppl stopping at one kid only.

there is hardly any Islamic society except maybe turkey showing similar trends.

in the race to gain footprint and provide foot soldiers, Islamic societies have a unbeatable lead.
True very true. Wars and long drawn struggles are always fought and won by extra sons. By adopting family planning, Hindus have screwed themselves. A truly master self goal. Islamists are not winning on basis of courage or tactical skill. They are just taking over block by block peacefully.

This is not a good analogy. Breeding is significant when you are talking about race, ethnicity, species. This is a battle of ideas.
It is like communism. Those children can be anything.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 15 Jul 2014 22:27

Jarita wrote:That does not make it right because children don't know religion

Islam Teaches Hatred to Children

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 15 Jul 2014 23:46

The point is - Gaza is an occupied territory, just as West bank is.
Israel is blindly supported by Unkil, and Unkil is also blind when it comes
to TSP bleeding Bharat. Therefore, there is a subtle satisfaction when Hamas
pin-pricks Israel. That's all.
There is also another angle (forget about democracy shared by Bharat, Israel
and Unkil, since the latter two doesn't give a damn to average bharatiyas):
socio-economic conditions of Gazans are much similar to that in most of Bharat.
Hence there is bound to be some sympathy when average Gazans are bombed
by Israel, while average Israelis watch it on TV with popcorn and beer. Israel
is an extension of Unkil's arrogance, dominance and contempt for the rest of the
world.
May be I'm inviting a barrage of flames frtom other BRFites, but set aside the
hatred for Islam for all its shortcomings, and see what any other population
under occupation would have done. The choice is between frustration and destruction.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 16 Jul 2014 00:05

Ramana,

It would be one thing if you have access to sophisticated weapons that can allow you to target discriminately. Hamas do not have access to sophisticated weapons. Their only access to weapons are homemade weapons that can only be fired dumbly with crude homemade fuses and such. Palestinians have been under an arms embargo for so long that they can only fight with what they have. On the other hand, Israel has had access to every technological advanced weaponry with generous financial assistance.

It is indeed a David v. Goliath fight only that the Israelis are the Goliaths and the Palestinians are the Davids. If the Palestinians are not given any sufficient means to protect and defend themselves against any land grab by Israelis, you cannot begrudge them for using any means available to fight. Note that this forum didn't object to the tactics that NVA and Vietcong used against the Americans and the South Vietnamese even though those tactics were classified as war crimes because these tactics were being used against the evil bad (name your favorite description) Americans and the NVAs were using whatever they had to drive the enemy out.

Besides, the Israelis were no stranger to such tactics when they were fighting to create their homeland when they launched bombs and attacks against the British and as well as other groups that did not want to see an Israel in their homeland.

Notice that this recent conflict only started when Netyanhu (to no surprise

) started using inflammatory language and threatened dire consequences and launched a hamfisted response to the three teenagers killed and look and behold see the consequences - a palestinian teenager beaten, burnt, and killed and other teenagers being grievously harmed.

The way I looked at it - Israel is not interested in peace. They want West Bank and drive out the Palestinians despite their frequent and public mouthings and desires for peace.

If they actually wanted peace, they would not have continued their settlement policy in West Bank but curtail it because they know that the settlement policy in West bank is actually what keeps the conflict alive and Hamas relevant and keep PLO (Fatmas) on the side. Netyanhu is not interested in peace at all. He wants to annex West Bank in whole and drive out Palestinians and is using every means available. We are actually witnessing an ethnic cleansing in the making ( a slow happening) and everyone is turning a blind eye to it.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 16 Jul 2014 01:49

Self Delete.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jul 2014 02:03

Kufr need to develop new tools to deal with Islamists - Hamas, JuD, others

My modest prescription for Israel

Take away Palestinian children from Palestinians by force, at least in Gaza: It would be best for Israelites to settle these kids near Israeli cities in hostels and boarding schools. Teach them Hebrew, making it their only language, bring them up as Palestinian and Muslim-hating Jews. Give reason, that these kids were being used as human-shields by Hamas, and were being brainwashed to be proud Madrassa-going humanity-hating illiterates. Also very important to take away the little girls. Say that the Israelis see it as liberating the children. Give example of Norwegian child welfare authorities. Moreover if Hamas continues to fire rockets they may end up hitting Palestinian children themselves.
Sterilization Drive: Whenever there are any attacks from Hamas, invade Gaza and sterilize all men, young and old.
Castration Drive: Any Islamist, any Jihadi, any stone-thrower the Israelis catch should first be castrated and only then asked any questions. Castration should be the cornerstone of any offensive drive. When Israeli soldiers return home after any invasion, each should have a sack full of momeen willies. That is the only thing that changes the ground situation in any durable way. That is the weakest spot of any Islamist, psychologically speaking.
Resexualize Jihadis: If resources allow give the Islamists a laser hair-removal treatment for the face and pump them up with cross-gender hormones. Also no eyebrows. Let them get feminine permanent make-up. Also full-botox lips. Put a tatoo on their foreheads in Arabic: "I'm one of the 72 virgins waiting for you"! Fully change an Islamist's sense of identity and purpose!
Drone Tech: Imagine Drones flying in the sky over Gaza, using image processing to locate the exact position of firing of any of Hamas rockets and acting almost instantaneously and responding with a counter-missile strike. Perhaps satellites can be used for real-time targeting of enemy rocket-launching.

Though Israeli Army uses aggressive measures, they are insufficient and do no durable sustainable damage. Killing produces more jihadis. Of course one can still kill, but killing alone is insufficient. Israelis have to go for the Islamist psyche and break that down. Till now they have found no good means.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jul 2014 03:47

The madness continues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/
Israel to escalate Gaza military offensive after first citizen killed
Tensions Remain High At Israeli Gaza Border...ASHDOD, ISRAEL - JULY 15: Homefront Command members clean up rubble from a home after a Hamas rocket landed in the front yard on July 15, 2014 in Ashdod, Israel. As operation 'Protective Edge

Hamas rocket kills first Israeli – reportedly an ultra-Orthodox rabbi – as Benjamin Netanyahu says "no choice" but to expand military offensive

Gaza truce ends as Israel and militants resume attacks

Meanwhile ISIS ups the ante in Syria using captured weaponry in Iraq.
Syria conflict: Isis marches further into Syria tipping the balance of power in the civil war
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 08335.html

While international attention has been focused on the situation in Gaza, the self-styled caliphate has been spreading deeper into the country armed with tanks and artillery seized in Iraq
Patrick Cockburn
Tuesday 15 July 2014

Isis fighters have captured much of eastern Syria in the past few days while international attention has been focused on the Israeli bombardment of Gaza. Using tanks and artillery seized in Iraq, it has taken almost all of oil-rich Deir Ezzor province and is battling to crush the resistance of the Syrian Kurds.

Isis is establishing dominance over the opposition to Syria’s President, Bashar al-Assad, as other rebel groups flee or pledge allegiance to the caliphate declared by the Isis leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, after the capture of Mosul on 10 June. On Monday, the jihadists took over the rebel held half of Deir Ezzor on the Euphrates river, raising their black flag over the city and executing the rebel commander from Jabhat al-Nusra, the al-Qa’ida affiliate that was previously in control.

The recent Isis advances in Syria, following victories in Iraq last month, are altering the balance of power in the whole region. The opposition military forces not aligned with the Syrian government or Isis are being squeezed out of existence, making obsolete the US, British, Saudi and Turkish policy of backing groups hostile to both Assad and Isis.

Isis is seeking to capture the Syrian Kurdish enclave at Kobani, or Ayn al-Arab, where some 500,000 Kurds are concentrated, many of them refugees from other parts of northern Syria. “Isis have about 5,000 fighters which have been attacking us for the past 13 days using tanks and rockets and American Humvees captured in Iraq,” Idris Naasan, a political activist in Kobani, told The Independent by telephone. “The fighting is very heavy and we have lost three villages we are trying to regain.”

He said the normal population of Kobani region was 200,000 but this number is swollen by refugees from the border area and from Aleppo. Causing particular concern is the fate of 400 Kurdish hostages taken by Isis, including 133 schoolchildren aged between 13 and 14. Mr Idris said negotiations with Isis to exchange them for Isis prisoners “took place three days ago but fell through because Isis tried to take more hostages”.

Fighters from Isis marching in Raqqa, Syria (AP) Fighters from Isis marching in Raqqa, Syria (AP)
Maria Calivis, the Unicef regional director for Middle East and Northern Africa, said in a statement at the start of the month that all of the children, with the exception of four who escaped, were still captive. “It has been over four weeks since the children were abducted as they returned to their home town of Ayn al-Arab [Kobani], after taking their junior high school final exams in Aleppo,” she said.

There is no eyewitness information about the children but a report in the al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper said some of those abducted by Isis may have been tortured. It added that they were being held in two schools and that families living nearby said they could not sleep because of the sound of children crying and screaming as they were tortured. They said they heard three shots from the direction of one of the schools, leading them to fear that children may have been killed.

The Kurdish enclave under attack at Kobani is one of several regions which are home to Syria’s 2.5 million-strong Kurdish minority, most of whom live in the north and north-east of the country. The fate of Kobani has become a national cause for Kurds, particularly in Turkey just across the border. A statement from the Kurdish Democratic Union Party, whose “people’s protection units” are doing most of the fighting to defend the enclave, says “all the Kurds should head towards Kobani and participate in the resistance”. Mr Idris accuses the Turkish government of giving “logistical aid intelligence information to Isis”. Other Kurdish sources say this is unlikely, though they concede that Turkey has helped Isis and Jabhat al-Nusra in the past.

The other main thrust of the Isis offensive in eastern Syria has been towards Deir Ezzor, where it has defeated the Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham groups. They say they are out-gunned and outnumbered by Isis, which by one estimate has 10,000 fighters in Syria. Its morale is high, it is well financed through plundering banks and through the capture of oil wells in north-east Syria. Isis has been successful in winning the allegiance of tribes, which are strong in Deir Ezzor and Raqqa provinces, by allocating to them oil production from different wells that can be sold on the black market.

Isis has been engaged in a “civil war within the civil war” since the start of the year in which it battled the rest of the Syrian armed opposition, jihadi and non-jihadi. Up to 7,000 fighters may have been killed in this fighting. Isis, which has always been well-led militarily, withdrew from Idlib province, Aleppo city and northern Aleppo province earlier in the year, a retreat misinterpreted as a sign of weakness by other rebel groups, but apparently a tactically astute manoeuvre to concentrate its forces.

Fresh from success in Iraq, Isis is now counter-attacking strongly and, having taken Deir Ezzor, may seek to move back into Aleppo city from its base at al-Bab in east Aleppo province. Meanwhile, government forces in Aleppo city have been advancing against weakening rebel resistance and may soon have isolated the rebel-held districts. The Syrian army and Isis may then confront each other as the only important players left in the civil war.

The Syrian opposition has always claimed that Isis and Syrian government forces have had a sort of de facto ceasefire and hinted at undercover links. This was mostly propaganda, though regurgitated in Washington, London and Paris, but it is true that since Isis helped to take Minnigh air base north of Aleppo last summer, it has mainly fought other rebel groups. When President Assad and al-Baghdadi do confront each other, the West and its allies will have to decide if they will go on trying to weaken the Syrian government.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 16 Jul 2014 04:37

RajeshA saar,

quite wicked. LOL
Tweeted it

Regards,
V

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 16 Jul 2014 05:02

Kati wrote:The point is - Gaza is an occupied territory, just as West bank is.
Israel is blindly supported by Unkil, and Unkil is also blind when it comes
to TSP bleeding Bharat. Therefore, there is a subtle satisfaction when Hamas
pin-pricks Israel. That's all.

Gaza had been turned over to the Arabs in 2005, with Israeli settlers being forcibly dragged out by the IDF. Dunno if you saw that, but I have first hand seen more than one settler being physically removed forcibly by the IDF (parents/relatives of my Technion classmates included), and the entire Gaza strip turned over to the Arabs, so the Arabs could have had it, if they so wanted. They don't. Once the Arabs got hold of it, they elected Hamas who turned the region into a rocket launching zone.

There is also another angle (forget about democracy shared by Bharat, Israel
and Unkil, since the latter two doesn't give a damn to average bharatiyas):

I can't remember Israel arming terrorists that operate against India, or giving them any support. Au contraire, here is what Israel has said about India

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/cant-comprom ... 642-2.html

In contrast, we have kept supporting, pathetically, the Arabs in the hopes that it would get us brownie points, even when the OIC and the Arabs have kicked us in the teeth at every turn.

socio-economic conditions of Gazans are much similar to that in most of Bharat.

The Gazans have a per capita income twice that of India. They are also the ones getting the highest amount of per capita international aid ( $700-1000/person, depending on what source you want to believe). In contrast, Indians have had to fight their way up by sheer dint of their own hard work, no one giving us aid. Israel is also a liberal, free, open society, and in that sense, is very similar to India. So, no - the social conditions of India are more akin to those of Israel. Economic conditions of Gaza are at least twice as good as that of India.

Hence there is bound to be some sympathy when average Gazans are bombed
by Israel, while average Israelis watch it on TV with popcorn and beer. Israel
is an extension of Unkil's arrogance, dominance and contempt for the rest of the
world.

How did you get the idea that Israel is an expression of Unkil's arrogance? Just a little question for you - during Israel's independence fight, do you know where they got the majority of their arms/ammo from? And no - US has played both sides of the game, just as in India, keeping the Palestinians on their feet. And the US has also given assistance to the Palestinian security services (total aid to Palestine between 2008 and 2013, averaged over $600 million each year)

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... aid12.html

May be I'm inviting a barrage of flames frtom other BRFites, but set aside the
hatred for Islam for all its shortcomings, and see what any other population
under occupation would have done. The choice is between frustration and destruction.

The choice is between accepting the existence of Israel and living in peace in their own country, or fighting for everything between the river and the sea. And the Arabs have made their choice plain. Abba Eban offered the Arabs a deal after 1967 war with most of the territories they are supposedly fighting for today. Arafat refused. Ehud Barak offered Arafat all of Gaza, 91% of West Bank (86% according to the Palestinians), and a share in the control of Jerusalem. Arafat refused. The bitter truth is that the Palestinian politicians know that they will not survive one day if they renounce Jihad against the infidel. So, they won't do it, and no peace is possible. Nothing short of the entire Israel will satisfy them. It is similar to the Pakistanis wanting the green flag over the Red fort in India, as a precursor to any peace.

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Jul 2014 05:33

People who are bleeding hearts on Palestinians and on behalf of Palestinians should answer a simple question, what did the Palestinians (and other gelf countries) do when Surat was struck with plague in 1994? Let them be reminded of their arrogant behaviour, make them apologize for that *before* we should turn a listening ear to their plight.

On the case of being stripped of their lands and being left to live in penury, if they have demands from Israel - they can instead of lobbing grenades at them must give some Gandhian ideas a try., with a list of *genuine* greivances and not entitlements. And definitely not with the position that the joos and kafirs should be put to death.

And the other side of the equation, the israeli joos should also realize that they need friends., they can be proud of their culture and heritage without being arrogant and repugnant.

And for us Indians, the rabid mullahs will not think twice (nay they will be the first to jump at) to make Indians wajib-ull-cattle to be slaughtered for 72 raisins and on the other hand Israel does provide technology (drip irrigation, milint devices) that India needs to not become wajib-ull-cattle. Given that (and given the arrogancy of the palestenians), the choice of whom to make friends with is stark.

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 16 Jul 2014 06:13

To anyone in a hurry to support the Palestinians: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/18374

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 16 Jul 2014 09:27

Dilbu wrote:Indiscriminate killing of children does not help Israel in any way. In fact it only helps the likes of Hamas to create more terrorists. I don't think anyone on BRF will deny the arguments in favour of Israel. But they can't just go in and kill kids. It is simply not acceptable. We all know rabid Paki terrorists will kill Indian kids without batting an eye lid if they get a chance but how many of us want IA to go in and bomb a Paki kindergarten in response to this. Kill the terrorist by all means but spare the innocent as much as possible. This attitude of indifference will not help Israel in the long run.

I think it is time the Palestenians (who cry over their loved ones dead/bisected bodies) stopped the radicals on their side from bombing Israel.
Everybody knows who starts the tussle on each occasion. If you provoke someone, you can't do moral grand standing upon their response.
This is the same point where we come, when we talk about common/moderate muslims in general world over, having to stop the radicals in their midst from terrosirm.
If they can't stop the nut jobs of their side, how can they ask for exemption from retaliatory flak ?
It is useless failing to stop the first shot and then crying over the second shot that came from the other side.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 16 Jul 2014 12:01

Kati wrote:The point is - Gaza is an occupied territory, just as West bank is.
Israel is blindly supported by Unkil, and Unkil is also blind when it comes
to TSP bleeding Bharat. Therefore, there is a subtle satisfaction when Hamas
pin-pricks Israel. That's all.
There is also another angle (forget about democracy shared by Bharat, Israel
and Unkil, since the latter two doesn't give a damn to average bharatiyas):
socio-economic conditions of Gazans are much similar to that in most of Bharat.
Hence there is bound to be some sympathy when average Gazans are bombed
by Israel, while average Israelis watch it on TV with popcorn and beer. Israel
is an extension of Unkil's arrogance, dominance and contempt for the rest of the
world.
May be I'm inviting a barrage of flames frtom other BRFites, but set aside the
hatred for Islam for all its shortcomings, and see what any other population
under occupation would have done. The choice is between frustration and destruction.

Israel's actions are immoral by the standards of India which has 125 crore people. I think the standards shift when there are less than 1 crore people, whose survival is at stake. Palestinian people have faced a lot of pain and injustice, but if I were Israeli and Jewish I would probably oppress and crush with all my might anyone who has such an obvious problem even saying that my country has a right to exist.

It is not hatred of Islam to recognize that Muslims as a rule have almost no capacity to be understanding and generous to anyone whose life and dignity they don't hold in their hands.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jul 2014 13:08

If you go back to the creation of the state of Israel in the last century,post WW2,the key issue has been land.We won't go into the issue of God granting the land to X or Y as the raison d'etre for modern Israel,suffice it to say that it was the ancient kingdom of the Hebrews,King Solomon,etc.,and the Jews were scattered worldwide after repeated invasions by the Persians,Romans,etc.,down to the Crusades and Islamic annexation of the "Holy Land",sacred to 3 religions. After the '67 war,modern Israel occupied land which belonged to Jordan ,the West Bank,the Golan Heights belonging to Syria and Jerusalem was captured. Since then what has actually happened on the ground has been a massive relentless expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories,pushing out Palestinians from land where they've lived for centuries.This has been the chief bone of contention preventing a ME settlement for almost 50 yrs. now. The Palestinians who also lived in these territories were displaced as refugees into the neighbouring nations and their demand of the right to return (into the so-called Palestinian state brokered at Oslo) has also been blocked by the Israelis.The Palestinian state/enclaves in reality are pieces of land that have little linkages,pockets of Palestinians surrounded by Israelis.Hardly a workable state.

There are two divergent opinions within Israel.Yes to a Palestinian state and No to it. With some justification Israel since '67 has justified its expansion due to the fragility of its borders,narrowness of the country,and Jordan virtually wrote off the West bank as a future home for the Palestinians.Therefore,the issues which need to be resolved for any settlement are predominantly,the security of the Israeli state,guarantees provided by secure borders on the ground,international military commitments-from the US/UN peacekeepers perhaps,a Palestinian state with merely police forces which will not threaten the Israelis militarily,disarming of the militant factions like Hamas,the Hiz,etc.,buffer zones demilitarised between Israel and her neighbours,in return for a workable Palestinian state.

Since there is very little land available in what was once ancient Palestine,one obvious solution where the Palestinian diaspora can be accommodated and "make the desert bloom" with international financial assistance is the virtually uninhabited Sinai mostly desert (perhaps as Egyptian citizens).But this requires Egypt to but its thumb impression on the same and it will demand arms and legs .billions in aid whatever or the same.. The issue is so complex that with regularity,fresh rounds of mayhem take place.each time more dangerous than what has gone before.All iit requires is just a small spark like the abduction and murder of the 3 Israeli teenagers which has seen Israel through its counter attacks kills over 200 Palestinians.It is past time for the international community to convene a permanent peace council involving all stakeholders under UN auspices to resolve the issue,which with the emergence of ISIS and its ambitions of a state of ISIL,caliphate,blah,blah,utterly ruthless,the danger to Israel simply keeps on growign in number and capability.

arminius · Post by **arminius** » 16 Jul 2014 17:59

The curren stand taken by ModiSarkaar
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140715/j ... 8Z4GJ3wBmP.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jul 2014 19:02

Two sides are fighting, one as discriminately or indiscriminately as the other. The stronger one will prevail. Fortunately for us, that is Israel, for now and for the foreseeable future. If they want the bombardment to stop, the Pakestinians know that the only thing they need to do is stop the rocket attacks. When that stops, Israel will stop. If not, Israel wont. Why should they?

So what goes of my father?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2014 19:43

JEM Its the Indian liberal education to support the underdog even when its a wolf and not a dog.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Jul 2014 20:35

Yes, yes, yes Hamas is terrorist, Israel is protecting themselves but what did the kids do.
Please read the reports. The kid killing in Palestine has become almost voyeuristic. Soldiers are killing them willy nilly because these kids are running around.
This is ridiculous and sorry not defensible.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 16 Jul 2014 20:45

Jarita wrote:Yes, yes, yes Hamas is terrorist, Israel is protecting themselves but what did the kids do.
Please read the reports. The kid killing in Palestine has become almost voyeuristic. Soldiers are killing them willy nilly because these kids are running around.
This is ridiculous and sorry not defensible.

Not defensible maybe, but ridiculous only if you think it is ridiculous for a tiny nation to fight ruthlessly for its survival in a world that has been demonstrably wishing them to be extinct. Ridiculous of the Jews to refuse to go the way of countless ancient tribes now not even remembered, I suppose.

Israel is not playing cricket here, surely there will be consequences of its policy of all-out war, but it is hard to argue with the survival ethic.

I will note that Hamas has rejected a ceasefire deal brokered by Egypt, a deal that was accepted by Israel. All they have to do is to stop launching those mostly-useless, but still evil-intentioned rockets at Israel and the killing will stop. All the Palestinians have to do is to pressure their elected Hamas representatives to do this.

I don't see as how that is asking for too much.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jul 2014 21:06

Meanwhile
Assad sworn in as Syrian president for third term
AP
Damascus, July 16, 2014

Proclaiming the Syrian people winners in a "dirty war" waged by outsiders, President Bashar Assad was sworn in on Wednesday, marking the start of his third seven-year term in office amid a bloody civil war that has ravaged the Arab country.

Looking confident and self-assured, occasionally making jokes, Assad declared victory over "terrorism" and said countries that supported the Syrian opposition "will pay a high price."

The grandiose ceremony at the presidential palace in Damascus caps what has been a recent reversal of fortune on the battlefield for Assad's forces battling the rebellion against him. In the past year, the 48-year-old leader has managed to seize the momentum in the civil war, with his troops making steady advances on several fronts against outgunned rebels bogged down in infighting.

Syrian state TV broadcast what it said was a live ceremony Wednesday during which Assad took the oath of office. The TV showed Assad arriving at the People's Palace in the Qassioun Mountain, the scenic plateau that overlooks the capital from the north.

A band played the Syrian national anthem after which Assad was seen walking a red carpet past an honor guard into a hall packed with members of parliament and Christian and Muslim clergyman.

Wearing a dark blue suit and a blue shirt and tie, Assad placed his hand on Islam's holy book, the Quran, pledging to honor the country's constitution.

"I swear by the Almighty God to respect the country's constitution, laws and its republican system and to look after the interests of the people and their freedoms," he said to thunderous applause from the audience.

He then launched into a speech in which he praised the Syrian people for holding the vote and for "defeating the dirty war" launched on the Syrian people.

"They wanted it to be a revolution but you were the real rebels," he said. "They failed in trying to brainwash you, or break your will."

Throughout the crisis, Assad has maintained that the conflict that has torn his nation apart was a Western-backed conspiracy executed by "terrorists" - and not a popular revolt by people inspired by the Arab Spring uprisings, seeking democracy and disenchanted with his authoritarian rule.

As the conflict slid into civil war, Assad refused to step down and last month, he was re-elected in a landslide victory in a vote dismissed by the opposition and its Western allies as a sham.

He won 88.7 percent of the ballots cast in the first multicandidate elections in decades. The voting didn't take place in opposition-held areas of Syria, effectively excluding millions of people from the vote.

Syria's civil war, now in its fourth year, has killed more than 170,000 people and displaced one third of the country's population.

Reflecting the security threat surrounding Assad, the inauguration ceremony was for the first time held at the presidential palace and not in the Syrian parliament as has been the tradition.

Syrian TV announced Wednesday morning he would be sworn in at noon. His previous term in office was to expire on Thursday, and he had been widely expected to be sworn in then.

Assad's wife, Asma, was also in the audience Wednesday, sitting alongside several women in the front row.

"Congratulations for your victory and congratulations for Syria and its people who have defied all kinds of terrorism," Assad said.

He mocked Arab and regional backers of the Syrian rebels fighting to topple him. "Whoever has supported terrorist whether in the West or the Arabs will pay the price sooner or later," he said.

Assad did not mention recent developments in Iraq and Syria, where militants from the so-called Islamic State group have taken over large chunks of territory, declaring it a self-styled caliphate.

He vowed, however, to continue to fighting "terrorism" to liberate Syrian cities from rebels, including Aleppo and Raqqa in the northeast. Raqqa is under the full control of Islamic State fighters.

"We will not forget our beloved Raqqa, which we will liberate from the terrorists, God willing."

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Jul 2014 21:16

Jarita wrote:The kid killing in Palestine has become almost voyeuristic. Soldiers are killing them willy nilly because these kids are running around.
This is ridiculous and sorry not defensible.

And also completely untrue.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 16 Jul 2014 21:34

But the asymmetry is delicious to miss and should be used against the desi apologist to show their napunsakata.

- disproportionate response (scoring centuries vs singles)
- during the ramazan month
- zero world reaction even from the Saudi arabs
- indefinite timeline
- islamists bringing knifes to a gun battle
- to a case where they actually have a semblance of legitimate legal case

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Jul 2014 22:14

All they have to do is to stop launching those mostly-useless, but still evil-intentioned rockets at Israel and the killing will stop. All the Palestinians have to do is to pressure their elected Hamas representatives to do this.

I don't see as how that is asking for too much.

They should quit firing those mijjiles if for no other reason than that they can't aim worth a da**. 800 missiles fired, net achievement is one petrol bunk blown up.
As for the ppl of Gaza, it is a tragedy. One can say, hain, who asked you to elect the mijjile-boys, but I am sure not everyone voted for missile-launchers, and I am even more sure that one cannot live peacefully there unless one is seen to be a Mijjile-Boyz supporter.

Israeli policy OTOH has advanced little since Lebanon/West Beirut 1980, when they were using F-16s to blow up whole blocks of apartments. Now they have ABMs that can hit some 90 percent of incoming mijjiles, but they can't aim their own missiles worth a da** - or are past caring.

I don't see any solution. The Lebanon festivities ended with the massacre orgies at Chattilla and Sabra refugee camps, and the Syrian Army enforced a death penalty for anyone caught with guns or ammo or grenades, period.

The UN (meaning the InSecurity Veto Club) is ultimately the culprit here - the only solution I see is Israel having to vacate a lot of the illegal Settlements

, and the UN ENFORCING (

)a total ban on weaponry and explosives in the entire area vacated by Israel including Gaza and the West Bank. Sort of a UN-run "TSA" in the entire zone for a specified period like 30 years, until a whole generation can come up, who don't remember the bloodshed. But all the UN can do these days anywhere in the world is scoot around in their white Jeeps with blue helmets and try to avoid the bullets and bombs themselves. Pathetic.

The current

against the Israelis is simply that the Israelis aren't curling up and allowing themselves to be kicked by bloodthirsty terrorists. I don't like to see the extreme mayhem unleased by Israel, but it is still preferable to seeing images of what WILL happen if Israel does NOT respond this way. Look at the ISIS in Eyerak, look at Somalia, look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sierra Leone, Mali, Libya, Syria, do you see any place where The BissFool hesitate to maim and kill children?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jul 2014 01:37

>>Yes, yes, yes Hamas is terrorist, Israel is protecting themselves but what did the kids do.

Which kids? The Israeli ones whose killings sparked of the latest frenzy, or the Palestinian ones?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 17 Jul 2014 01:54

"Peaceful" palestinians can have a neighbor hood watch to make sure no attacks on israel come from their neighborhoods.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Jul 2014 02:34

I have to

when I see the West Asia thread being taken over by this Israel-Palestine saas-bahu drama.

I mean seriously... for the Duh-mericans, this "holy land" cr@p is the only thing in what they call the "Middle East" worth talking or learning about. Why? Because it takes place in the epicenter of World History, where the events of the Bah-bl occurred.

But from the point of view of Indian interests? Israel-Palestine is a SIDESHOW, period. Not worth spending bandwidth or time over, let alone discussing to death at the expense of far more relevant and far-reaching developments in Syria, Iraq, the peninsula, and Iran.

What's worse, people are giving all kinds of uber-senty made-for-Duhmerican-TV arguments... "what about the children," etc. What about the children who died on 26/11 or any of the other Paki terrorist attacks on our people, did you see them being mourned in Gaza? Or Tel-Aviv for that matter (besides the Chabad house residents).

My point of view is this and this only. We have no dog in this fight ideologically. We do business with the Israelis, therefore we have some transactional stake in their welfare and survival. We do no business with the Palestinians, so they don't matter any more from an Indian interests point of view than, say, the Samoans or the Inuit. Any sentiments and personal opinions expressed on their behalf are therefore strictly of timepass value. Making any more of this than has to be made, will only be self-defeating. Bus khatam.

member_28173 · Post by **member_28173** » 17 Jul 2014 11:01

It seems there is 5 hour truce between hamas and Isreal.

If I were in Israel ; I would have advocated " Please No More "Dis-proportiate" hangama ( So called spontaneous out-pour of Jalus ) from hamas side"...... Let there be process

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 17 Jul 2014 14:15

Collective Agnisanskar of Hamasians in a Tunnel. (Guys are smart, allowing every moron possible to first enter the tunnel and agnidaah later)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM6WUoel ... e=youtu.be

habal · Post by **habal** » 17 Jul 2014 20:11

US and anglo-euro interaction with Middle-East should be seen as a means to prevent evolution of human race into the next phase. Each of their activities are proof of this, sample the western media showing how Al-Qaeda/Jabhat/ISIS/Taliban (all gulf sunni sponsored) chop off heads, limbs and wield other tools of torture helps retract human race into negativity.

people are regularly shown this stuff in media, especially english-speaking media and western media, around the world. At first they showed how Al Qaeda was 'ohh so brutal', and then came turn of Taliban horror scenes with them shooting burqa clad woman who went to the 'beauty parlor' and when that entire phase passed over, another invention was that 'dreaded' Jabhat Al Nusra of Syria who were 'oh so savage' and then as a latest invention ISIS shooting people by wayside for being govt collaborators and not being Sunni enough.

But these are shown all across the world, in places that have no direct contact with middle-east like East asia, australia, southern africa, south america etc

Dominate airwaves with depravity and people will regress into shell and never evolve

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 17 Jul 2014 21:31

Rudradev wrote:I have to when I see the West Asia thread being taken over by this Israel-Palestine saas-bahu drama.

I mean seriously... for the Duh-mericans, this "holy land" cr@p is the only thing in what they call the "Middle East" worth talking or learning about. Why? Because it takes place in the epicenter of World History, where the events of the Bah-bl occurred.

But from the point of view of Indian interests? Israel-Palestine is a SIDESHOW, period. Not worth spending bandwidth or time over, let alone discussing to death at the expense of far more relevant and far-reaching developments in Syria, Iraq, the peninsula, and Iran.

What's worse, people are giving all kinds of uber-senty made-for-Duhmerican-TV arguments... "what about the children," etc. What about the children who died on 26/11 or any of the other Paki terrorist attacks on our people, did you see them being mourned in Gaza? Or Tel-Aviv for that matter (besides the Chabad house residents).

My point of view is this and this only. We have no dog in this fight ideologically. We do business with the Israelis, therefore we have some transactional stake in their welfare and survival. We do no business with the Palestinians, so they don't matter any more from an Indian interests point of view than, say, the Samoans or the Inuit. Any sentiments and personal opinions expressed on their behalf are therefore strictly of timepass value. Making any more of this than has to be made, will only be self-defeating. Bus khatam.

Mashallah that settled it .. SummAmeen !!

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 17 Jul 2014 21:51

Rudradev wrote:I have to when I see the West Asia thread being taken over by this Israel-Palestine saas-bahu drama.

I mean seriously... for the Duh-mericans, this "holy land" cr@p is the only thing in what they call the "Middle East" worth talking or learning about. Why? Because it takes place in the epicenter of World History, where the events of the Bah-bl occurred.

But from the point of view of Indian interests? Israel-Palestine is a SIDESHOW, period. Not worth spending bandwidth or time over, let alone discussing to death at the expense of far more relevant and far-reaching developments in Syria, Iraq, the peninsula, and Iran.

What's worse, people are giving all kinds of uber-senty made-for-Duhmerican-TV arguments... "what about the children," etc. What about the children who died on 26/11 or any of the other Paki terrorist attacks on our people, did you see them being mourned in Gaza? Or Tel-Aviv for that matter (besides the Chabad house residents).

My point of view is this and this only. We have no dog in this fight ideologically. We do business with the Israelis, therefore we have some transactional stake in their welfare and survival. We do no business with the Palestinians, so they don't matter any more from an Indian interests point of view than, say, the Samoans or the Inuit. Any sentiments and personal opinions expressed on their behalf are therefore strictly of timepass value. Making any more of this than has to be made, will only be self-defeating. Bus khatam.

Agree with most of your phenomenal posts but not this one. The world did empathize with us after 26/11, maybe not the players you mention but it cannot be quid pro quo.
When something is all over the media and in front of us, we cannot be robots. Perhaps, if we had the foresight and clout to spread the pictures of what has happened in India world over, we would get the same empathy.
This is human nature. Logic is not always at the forefront.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Jul 2014 22:26

Imagine if India tells Palestine that Indians will support Palestine if they convert to Hinduism and then, being dharmic, stop bothering Jews - just as Jews have lived in India for thousands of years without any issues at all. This would be bizarre, but such arbitrary and bizarre situations are at the base here( in terms of religion, for example). We should keep in mind this much at least before trying to see what is fair in such a situation that is unbalanced at the base for Israel; and our diplomatic stand is apt. Unfortunately, so-called secular people have dragged this to parliament, as foreign policy thread shows. Really sad to have come to this where some people in Indian parliament are totally against one country because of religion - but silent about beheadings by ISIL etc. Very bad actually for healthy democracy. Hope people who give lectures of democracy to Indians are not silent this time, however practically people who support Palestine are the same who ignore bloodshed against Israel. Notice how ISIL is only referred to in rather hushed tone, considering hostages with ISIL. So should we not bomb ISIL since ISIL is holding hostages and where is any protests about that in the Indian parliament? This is a good time to decimate ISIL and finish it off, not that it can't be done later anytime.