Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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nachiket
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by nachiket »

Jarita wrote:Perhaps we are debating the "who" fired the missile. Maybe it does not matter.
Maybe, but we need to be sure that this indeed was a missile strike and not an as yet undiscovered mechanical issue in the 777 or a hideous pilot error like in the AF447 crash. When an airliner suddenly falls out of the sky, a bomb or missile is always the first suspect. But it has happened in the past that the cause turned out to be much smaller and more scary since it could happen again anywhere.

The AmirKhans better be sure of what they claim or their haste to derive propaganda points against the rebels might mask the real cause.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^The Boeing 777 has been in service in large numbers since the late 1990s and there are several hundred of them. What you're saying about mechanical failure could be true for the 787, but not for the 777.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by nachiket »

Mort Walker wrote:^^^The Boeing 777 has been in service in large numbers since the late 1990s and there are several hundred of them. What you're saying about mechanical failure could be true for the 787, but not for the 777.
Yes, so the chances of an undiscovered problem are less but not zero. The Boeing 737 went into service in 1968. The infamous rudder malfunction accidents happened in the 1990's. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

It took them 2-3 incidents before they figured out the problem with the servo valve too. Especially after MH370, whose cause may never be determined we need to be alert.
Last edited by nachiket on 18 Jul 2014 23:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_22733 »

Jarita wrote:Just 5 minutes behind Malaysian Airlines, Air India followed.
The targets were the 108 scientists

This sounds like Homi Bhabha
Why the heck would someone target AIDS researchers who have nothing to do with whats going on in Ukraine?

I am willing to believe it was shot down, but only if uncorrupted evidence of it is confirmed by multiple independent (of unkil and WASPs) sources. So far only unkil has been jumping up and down saying they know everything and it was Russia/Putin who pulled the trigger to the Buk system intentionally. Our media being uncle toms and our macaulayite-slaves have gleefully joined in. This no better than any other tin foil hat conspiracy artists out on the street, only that this tin foil conspiracy artist has the largest defense force and propaganda force on the planet.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_22733 »

nachiket wrote:
Jarita wrote:Perhaps we are debating the "who" fired the missile. Maybe it does not matter.
Maybe, but we need to be sure that this indeed was a missile strike and not an as yet undiscovered mechanical issue in the 777 or a hideous pilot error like in the AF447 crash. When an airliner suddenly falls out of the sky, a bomb or missile is always the first suspect. But it has happened in the past that the cause turned out to be much smaller and more scary since it could happen again anywhere.

The AmirKhans better be sure of what they claim or their haste to derive propaganda points against the rebels might mask the real cause.
This is curious from a conspiracy stand point that points to events/sources in Malaysia and not in Ukraine(and I am sorry I am peddling it here). Was a bomb placed on both MH370, and MH17, with accurate timers? The one in MH370 exploded but it just decompressed the aircraft and it ended up in the south pole. The second one was timed to explode over Ukraine Russia border and it succeeded this time.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Mort Walker »

The chances are never zero for any aircraft, but the probability is very low.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

Curious that MH370 had a couple of dozen Avionics experts as pax and MH17 HIV/AIDS experts. "Unabomber" redux by any chance? That guy went after scientists of various hues (including a Yale professor who worked at that time on a programming language called Linda which was functional programming language for data flow like computations). May be just a coincidence but both are MH, Boeing 777, and carrying scientists. The first one could have gone over Ukrain too (if you believe that it went west-by-west-north rather than west-by-south-west).
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

Does Ukraine have any English advisers in its fight?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chanakyaa »

nachiket wrote:
Jarita wrote:Perhaps we are debating the "who" fired the missile. Maybe it does not matter.
Maybe, but we need to be sure that this indeed was a missile strike and not an as yet undiscovered mechanical issue in the 777 or a hideous pilot error like in the AF447 crash. When an airliner suddenly falls out of the sky, a bomb or missile is always the first suspect. But it has happened in the past that the cause turned out to be much smaller and more scary since it could happen again anywhere.

The AmirKhans better be sure of what they claim or their haste to derive propaganda points against the rebels might mask the real cause.
It is possible that the truth may never come out. In the first 24 hours, countries (and their puppets in the media) unleashed a massive blame game campaign without waiting for or analyzing the cause of the crash. They have no incentive to do a thorough job, to learn the real cause of the incident; let along share the truth with the world and open themselves for criticism for jumping to the conclusion. Could this be chocolate king's "Reichstag fire"?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chanakyaa »

In the meantime, the skies over Ookraine look as if commercial No-Fly Zone has been implemented. If yes, it is a terrible way of implementing NFZ..

Image below courtesy of ZH. Realtime can be seen at

http://www.flightradar24.com/45.3,28.05/5

Image
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Live footage of the airliner falling to the ground,engine on fire here:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 95040.html

According to this report,The UKR regime deployed several BUK SAM systems to the east (to forestall a perceived Russian air support to the Donetsk Republic separatist fighters) which most likely has been responsible for the downing of the ill-fated MH airliner. There are several anomalies in the incident,with some sceptics even suggesting that it could even have been shot down.What is evident is that the separatist fighters have shot down only low flying aircraft and helicopters earlier,the Il-76 about to land and a truboprop AN-26.Even for the sake of argument they possessed a BUK system,it would be meaningless without the ability to identify high alt. civilian aircraft from military ones.No rebel fighters are simply going to shoot down any contact made on radar for the fun of it!

There is the possibility that the UKR regime deliberately forced civilian aircraft to fly over the combat zone and in a false flag op,did the business so that Russia could be blamed for it.


http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/
The Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said.

READ RT'S LIVE UPDATES ON MALAYSIAN PLANE CRASH

“According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1” ... These complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers,” the ministry’s statement reads as cited by Ria.

Earlier, Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies were citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.

The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.

A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine – not far from the Russian border – on Thursday.

There were reportedly 283 people and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane, who reportedly all died in the crash.

There were unconfirmed reports the Malaysian plane was travelling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was allegedly hit by a missile.

There’s no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed. Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.

Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending on the model.

Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.

“A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don’t just crash with no reason,” he said. “Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can’t completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile.”

“I don’t know who could’ve shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training,” Karash added.


Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.

The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic, saying that it’s the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.

“We simply don’t have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude,” Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, explained
.

Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.

IHS Jane’s Defense analyst, Nick de Larrinaga, also shared the belief that the self-defense forces lack the capability to bring the Malaysian plane down.

“At normal cruising altitude a civilian passenger aircraft would be out of the range of the sort of manned portable air (defense) systems that we have seen proliferate in rebel hands in east Ukraine,” he said in a statement.

But the aircraft would be within range of Buk or other medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, he stressed.

“Both Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories,” the expert added.

It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could’ve used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

“It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,” he told CNN. “This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire.

According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Gus »

One report says modi's plane flew "minutes" over ukraine before the other plane was brought down..
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Madhusudhan »

Find it hard to believe that a bunch of ragtag rebels can operate this:
Image
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Klaus »

Gus wrote:One report says modi's plane flew "minutes" over ukraine before the other plane was brought down..
Diverted south over Western Ukraine apparently.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Singha »

operating such battery definitely is not a DIY learning thing. it would need a crew who had solid training in the ukrainian army whether current or rebels.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

That's scary, that NaMo's plane was in the area.
Didn't the UkBapZis shoot down an El Al airliner some years ago?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Singha »

yes. a S-200 missile took out a airliner bound for israel. it fell into the black sea iirc. it was attributed to a firing exercise gone wrong.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Madhusudhan »

Ukraine shot down Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 carrying a lot of Israelis in 2001.
Also FYI - After the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 carrying 293 passengers, the captain of the USS Vincennes was given a legion of merit for his service..... Just FYI to keep in mind when you hear the the Obama administration throw out its pomposity.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:operating such battery definitely is not a DIY learning thing. it would need a crew who had solid training in the ukrainian army whether current or rebels.
The rebels operate Strela and Manpads SAM , BUK is probably debatable

Most of these systems are stolen from Ukraine Army by rebels and are operated by the defectors they dont exist in big number just 1 or 2 TEL at best.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by MurthyB »

UlanBatori wrote:That's scary, that NaMo's plane was in the area.
Didn't the UkBapZis shoot down an El Al airliner some years ago?
Didn't India get an air force 1 like aircraft with anti missile protection for pm or is it still a diverted ai 747?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by svinayak »

UlanBatori wrote:That's scary, that NaMo's plane was in the area.
Didn't the UkBapZis shoot down an El Al airliner some years ago?

There must be 'double' plane for the VIPs in India. One for the show and camera and other for the actual.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

One should not tell Russia what to do; it is necessary to sit down to talks — Lavrov

Russia's foreign minister explained that the people in Eastern Ukraine wanted their lawful rights to be respected
MOSCOW, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with the Russia 24 TV news channel that it was unnecessary to tell Russia what it was supposed to do and that it would be much more expedient to sit down to talks.

“The most important thing, as Russian President Vladimir Putin reiterated in his conversation with President Obama, is to stop lecturing Russia what it should do and look into the core of the matter, which consists in the fact that the Ukrainian authorities are absolutely unwilling to sit down to talks with those who did not accept the February military coup (in Ukraine) and are refusing to accept the policy of talking to the Russian-speaking population in southeast Ukraine by force,” Lavrov said.

He explained that the people in Eastern Ukraine wanted their lawful rights to be respected.

“The only thing they want is to sit down to talks to discuss the future structure of the Ukrainian state and what rights will be guaranteed to all citizens. This is not their whim. It is a demand to the Kiev authorities to implement what they signed (the February 21 agreement) when they were still in opposition,” Lavrov said.

He added the creation of a national unity government was the key provision of the February 21 agreement.

“After being formed, the national unity government was supposed to start a constitutional reform that was supposed to have served as the basis for elections. Everything was distinct, logical and clear,” Lavrov stressed.

He explained the opposition had broken the agreement with Europe's connivance. “At least, the Europeans did not want to insist that the former opposition respected an agreement which had already been signed.

“After that, an attempt was made to return to a constructive dialogue, end violence and start an inclusive, transparent and open constitutional process with the involvement of all Ukrainian regions,” Lavrov went on to say.

“When we brought the paper to the United Nations Security Council and the OSCE and asked them to adopt a document signed by the foreign policy chiefs of the European Union, the United States, Russia and Ukraine, we did not find any support,” Lavrov said. We were offered to accept President Poroshenko’s peace plan, which ignored the April 17 Geneva statement and the principle of openness to the constitutional process.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

MurthyB wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:That's scary, that NaMo's plane was in the area.
Didn't the UkBapZis shoot down an El Al airliner some years ago?
Didn't India get an air force 1 like aircraft with anti missile protection for pm or is it still a diverted ai 747?
We bought 3 737-800/900 in VIP configuration which has anti-missile system and other equipment.

But for long range flights we still use the Air India 747
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by VikramS »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZDvB3YvzM
The live shoot down link is for the AN shot down earlier not MH17
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by habal »

Austin wrote:
MurthyB wrote:[

Didn't India get an air force 1 like aircraft with anti missile protection for pm or is it still a diverted ai 747?
We bought 3 737-800/900 in VIP configuration which has anti-missile system and other equipment.

But for long range flights we still use the Air India 747
there is need for a secure bullet/sharpnel proof compartment inside the plane that can withstand SAM and AAM warhead detonation etc. Having anti-missile system and flares by itself will not be enough.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chetak »

habal wrote:
Austin wrote:{quote="MurthyB"}[

Didn't India get an air force 1 like aircraft with anti missile protection for pm or is it still a diverted ai 747?{/quote}

We bought 3 737-800/900 in VIP configuration which has anti-missile system and other equipment.

But for long range flights we still use the Air India 747
there is need for a secure bullet/sharpnel proof compartment inside the plane that can withstand SAM and AAM warhead detonation etc. Having anti-missile system and flares by itself will not be enough.
won't the secure bullet/sharpnel proof compartment inside the plane hit the ground just as hard after the aircraft carrying it gets taken out??
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Singha »

Btw who has tested the efficacy of these systems on our bbj. We have to take it on face value whatever boeing claims as these are not our own ew gear.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

What options do we have ? Only Boeing , Airbus and Tupolev makes their own Wide Body/Narrow Body aircraft and their respective countries use it for their own needs.

For others like us we have to depend on them and their words , The chinese learnt the hard way when their found their aircraft for their President was bugged by US and stopped using it altogether.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:Btw who has tested the efficacy of these systems on our bbj. We have to take it on face value whatever boeing claims as these are not our own ew gear.

Not difficult to test.

It's basically a RWR and the associated CMDS (counter measures dispensing system)

It would not have been purchased without testing.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Moscow calls for intl probe into Malaysia MH17 flight crash – Russia’s UN envoy
Published time: July 18, 2014
http://rt.com/news/173972-churkin-malaysia-plane-un/
Malaysia Airline said in a statement on Friday that Ukraine’s traffic controllers ordered the Boeing-777 to lower by 500 meters when the aircraft entered Ukrainian airspace. It added that pilots were supposed to fly at 35,000ft (10,660 meters) throughout Ukrainian airspace, but air traffic control on the ground instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000ft (10,058 meters).
WHY?

While there is no doubt that this was a ghastly tragedy and one's hearts go out to the victims and their families and Malaysia in particular ,for a second catastrophic aviation tragedy to afflict it,there are many v.important Qs that need to be asked.

The first,why were commercial aircraft being forced to fly over the combat zone by the UKR regime?
What were the UKR BUK launchers doing in the same zone of conflict in the east?

The Chocolate soldier has boasted that he controls the entire country including the east,but suddenly discovers that "Russian controlled rebels" are in control of the east from where the missile was fired! The UKR forces retook Slavyansk very recently with the Donetsk forces withdrawing tactically to the Donetsk region.So how can Poroshenko keep on bullsh*tting that the rebels who upto now have not used such a sophisticated SAM like the BUK before.Had they done so,we would've seen them in action a long time ago and even more UKR aircraft shot down,if they had such alleged training from Russia.

The sticking point is that with so many commercial aircraft travelling just minutes after each other,Putin and Modi in particular ,which organisation with an iota of common sense would shoot at a contact without identifying it as a military flight? How could they discriminate between the aircraft whether it was a military one or commercial?

The news that Pres.Putin was just a minute away from the incident does lend much weight to the allegations that it was an assassination attempt that backfired. Putin's flight would've been tracked by US sats right from Brazil.The CIA would've well known his flight path,no big secret,therefore it would've been very easy to pass on the info to the UKR SAM batteries in the east to shoot Putin's aircraft down. Some western defence analysts say that the poorly trained UKR air defence forces might have goofed.

One very important fact.Why did the UKR forces move its BUK SAM batteries o the east when the separatists possess no air force or any form of aircraft or helicopter at all!
The only reason would be to shoot down Russian aircraft if they intervened in support of the Donetsk Republic forces,and the last attack by the UKR regime into Russian territory which killed a Russian local,saw the Russian parliament approve any use of the Russian armed forces into UKR territory.

Yet again,the Donetsk Republic forces have had ample success shooting down UKR aircraft and helos using Manpads and RPGs when aircraft were at very low level or landing.They would not require advanced SAMs to shoot down high alt. aircraft as even UKR ground attack aircraft have flown at low levels as has been seeen from many video clips of the conflict.

With the hugely successful BRICS summit and formation of the BRICS bank,bringing India,China,Russia,in particular together,with the possibility of a future security apparatus too is the US's worst nightmare. The key individual who can make this happen is Vladimir Putin.Therefore the perceived attempt to take him out.If the US establishment could assassinate JFK<they would have no qualms about removing Putin from the scene, permanently.

Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow
Published time: July 18, 2014
On Thursday, when a Malaysian Airlines plane was apparently shot down over Ukraine, a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the region, the Russian Defense Ministry said, contradicting Kiev’s statements.

The battery was deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner, the ministry said in a statement. It said radiation from the battery’s radar was detected by the Russian military.

“The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement.


The ministry said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path.

Earlier Kiev said it could not have fired a missile at the passing civilian plane because it had no Buk missile launchers deployed in the region. At the same time the Ukrainians said the militias had no Buk systems in their hands, according to a statement from the country’s Prosecutor General.

After the Russian ministry came out with the statement, Bogdan Senyk, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Defense Ministry reiterated Kiev’s position, saying that "anti-aircraft missiles have not been deployed during the anti-terrorist operation ... they are all in place."

The Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 carrying almost 300 people on board crashed on Thursday as it was flying over Ukraine’s Donetsk Region. The plane was apparently shot down by a surface-to-air missile, although both Kiev and the local militias fighting against it deny responsibility. A flurry of condemnations and calls for a swift investigation followed the disaster.
PS:Just for the record of US shooting down aircraft by mistake,the US military allegedly shot down TWA 800 of its east coast many years ago,while a top secret exercise to prevent the very incident of the Vincennes shooting down an Iranian Airbus,was going on.The missile without a warhead struck the plane and ignited the fuel.later on the argument was trotted out that somehow the fuel tanks caught fire while seat cushions bore all the hallmarks of missile fuel scorching.As for "blue on blue" mishaps,there have been so many in the recent conflicts,some acknowledged,many suppressed.

Tx.Madhu for posting that pic of a BUK command module.It looks as complex as the command centre of Capt.Kirk's "Starship Enterprise"! As you said,a ragtag bunch of farmers,miners,teachers,local blue collar workers could hardly operate such a sophisticated SAM system.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

250 civilian persons killed in Luhansk region of Ukraine since beginning of summer - OSCE
VIENNA, July 19 /ITAR-TASS/. Some 250 civilian persons have been killed and 850 wounded in Ukraine’s eastern Luhansk region in June and July 2014, the Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said in a daily report from Ukraine on Saturday, July 19.

“The doctors said that in June and July alone there were 250 killed and 850 wounded in the Luhansk region,” the report said.

In addition, the doctors informed that on July 16 alone three persons were killed and 30 were wounded in Luhansk.

“This last number does not include civilians killed in close vicinity of combat zones outside of the city and causalities among combatants. They also claimed that increasingly more people were being killed by booby traps and mines,” the report said.

The monitors said that “the situation in parts of Luhansk and Donetsk regions remained tense with on-going fighting around the city of Luhansk”.

“While patrolling the city centre of Lugansk, close to the occupied building of the Regional Administration, the SMM heard the sound of a shell hitting a garage, located about 200 metres away. Within two minutes the SMM arrived at the scene and found one man killed lying on the pavement; the garage and a car were totally demolished,” the report said.

The Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine currently consists of 300 civilian unarmed monitors from more than 40 OSCE participating States and local staff from Ukraine.

The Mission’s Head Office is in Kiev and there are monitors working in Kherson, Odessa, Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk, Kharkov, Donetsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Chernovtsy and Lugansk regions
ramana
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

Most likely Ukrainian govt forces shot the plane down. Now its known the rebels don't have planes. So was the plan to ambush another high value plane.
Mis-fortunately it turned out to be MH-17.
I am not too sure about the govt forces role with their deep cover advisers.
Paul
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Paul »

Question is what is the way to figure out who shot down the plane. There is no trail as such.

Any thoughts?
Cosmo_R
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Cosmo_R »

It's a PTI report. DRDO routinely uses PTI to encrypt press releases.
UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

As you said,a ragtag bunch of farmers,miners,teachers,local blue collar workers could hardly operate such a sophisticated SAM system.
But they HAVE destroyed helicopters and other aircraft, and knocked out plenty of APCs and maybe tanks. So clearly their ranks include quite a few ppl with Ukraine/Soviet/Russian military experience. Operating a military SAM system requires training to do properly, but it is quite plausible that they have people with such experience. How such a system can be hidden is a different matter. Also, if they have such a system, why would they try it out first on a random target? Or was the target not random, but a big mistake? That's not very credible.

If they wanted to use such a system, the obvious use would be against Ukrainian warplanes coming in to hit some place held by the rebels. Why waste a perfectly good SAM on something cruising at 10,000 meters?

Sorry, the "Qui Bono?" fingers all point to the UkBapZis themselves. Their survival depends on a war between NATO and Russia.
UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Cosmo_R wrote:
It's a PTI report. DRDO routinely uses PTI to encrypt press releases.
Encrypt they did, all right. So the MH17 flight was NOT on radar? Not notified to ATC?
Cosmo_R
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Cosmo_R »

On who mighta done MH17 in: Question—cui bono? Why would the Russians do this knowing that it would change the conversation.

Some grist for the conspiracy mill:

A few days before, the rebels took out a AN-26 at 21,000 ft. For that you need a serious missile not a manpad.

So let's assume it's the rebels and perhaps even with Russian help, who shot down MH17.

But!, you'll recall the intercepted communication told of rebels saying "we were told it's an AN-26 but it looks like a civilian plane..."

Now what if the Ukrainian spooks spoofed MH17 as an AN-26 and the rebels/Russians bought it and let fly?

How could they spoof? How about someone in the Ukraine military deliberately saying "we are sending an AN-26 in the commercial flightpath and they won't target it because they think its' a civilian plane" knowing full well they were being eavesdropped on?

Ukraine has more to gain by helping down the plane than the Russians do. So cui bono?

Of course, there is a more pedestrian explanation. Boris and Sergey shnozzled with vodka in the wee hours: "I wonder what this button does?"
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