Eastern Europe/Ukraine

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jul 2014 02:55

UB some Russian guy came on radio and said all Former SU republics have military training for adult males. He was a US citizen for 20 years and said he got similar training.
So its not strange that the rebels have military training. Its basic stuff.

However SAM etc is specialist training.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Jul 2014 04:42

Cosmo_R wrote:It's a PTI report. DRDO routinely uses PTI to encrypt press releases.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Jul 2014 04:44

UlanBatori wrote:If they wanted to use such a system, the obvious use would be against Ukrainian warplanes coming in to hit some place held by the rebels. Why waste a perfectly good SAM on something cruising at 10,000 meters?

Fighters travel much faster than civilian slow flying fat ducks AKA 777s ?

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 20 Jul 2014 05:24

Cosmo_R wrote:Now what if the Ukrainian spooks spoofed MH17 as an AN-26 and the rebels/Russians bought it and let fly?

How could they spoof? How about someone in the Ukraine military deliberately saying "we are sending an AN-26 in the commercial flightpath and they won't target it because they think its' a civilian plane" knowing full well they were being eavesdropped on?

That's actually perfectly plausible. It would very easy to do. Maybe the Ukrainians did this very thing dozens of times, and this time they finally got a missile crew careless enough to take the bait.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Jul 2014 06:12

Y. Kanan wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Now what if the Ukrainian spooks spoofed MH17 as an AN-26 and the rebels/Russians bought it and let fly?

How could they spoof? How about someone in the Ukraine military deliberately saying "we are sending an AN-26 in the commercial flightpath and they won't target it because they think its' a civilian plane" knowing full well they were being eavesdropped on?
That's actually perfectly plausible. It would very easy to do. Maybe the Ukrainians did this very thing dozens of times, and this time they finally got a missile crew careless enough to take the bait.

Nope, that's actually extremely implausible. If we really think the Russian Army and their rebel buddies can get happy with vodka and go blast airliners out of the sky for no good reason except that they were drunk, goodbye planet. It's very unlikely that the Russians would hand out sophisticated long range missiles that can come back to bite them in the ass. In that sense, they are more conservative than the West, specially the US.

CNN just said it takes 6 months training and a team of 17 people in 3 vehicles to figure out the BUK let alone fire it with any level of confidence. They're obviously fingering the Russian forces but ignoring the other BUK-capable party in the room--the Ukrainianians. So it boils down to 2 possible culprits--the Russians or the Ukrainians. Who has more to lose or gain from shooting a civilian jet? Who is less or more competent?

The discussion, including a US army fellow, also said the most sensible thing so far: The US cannot force anything in Ukraine and will have to find a face-saving exit after reaching a deal with Russia on autonomy in and influence over East Ukraine. This is because Russia's gas supplies to the neighboring countries and Europe simply cannot be replaced and countries like Germany are more annoyed with the Ukrainians than Russia. The American attempt to create an alternative pipeline thru Georgia and Azerbaijan is going nowhere anytime soon so this is the sanest course of action.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jul 2014 08:08

This is the fundamental Q.First we have to assume that part-time combatants,the shopkeepers,workers,farm labourers,etc., who would've been given in the past not more than a rudimentary military training-to fire Kalashnikov's mostly,perhaps RPGs,somehow acquired a BUK SAM system -gifted by Russia or captured from the UKR military and yet again somehow got trained to operate it and loosed off in jest a missile aimed at a random contact! Did they think that every aircraft in the sky was UKR mil. aircraft? This is theatre of the absurd,O'Bomber and Ca-Moron style.

Let's assume again that they somehow possessed the required mil. knowledge and expertise to operate such a system.How would these Donetsk republic fighters track and determine from the many contacts in a busy air corridor which was a UKR military flight? They have no sophisticated air defence system ,contact with UKR ATC,etc.So upon what targets would they waste their valuable BUK SAMs upon? Secondly,no UKR military aircraft would intentionally mix up with high flying civilian aircraft,unless it wanted to mask its identity.After suffering losses ,the UKR air force would've been extremely careful in its flights and the best way would be to fly low to avoid radar coverage.Ultimately the aircraft have to land somewhere in the eastern areas controlled by anti-UKR forces so there is no way that they could avoid the risk of attacks from Manpads,RPGs,MG fire.

Let's assume then that the UKR forces fired the missile intentionally to down an airliner.They had several motives for doing so.Firstly to create an international incident,blame the Russians and anti-UKR forces in a major propaganda coup.They also had the resources of UKR ATC to identify the various aircraft flying above.Was it no coincidence that they chose an MH flight knowing the extra shock,disbelief and uproar that it would create? They had the motive and they also had the missile batteries! They also captured the Slavyansk territory forcing the anti-UKR forces to withdraw to Donetsk.They were very much in the eastern regions with their armoured columns,etc.Q.Why would they field SAM batteries? To forestall any threat from Russian aircraft which might've intervened had they launched an assault upon Donetsk large -scale loss of civilian life,forcing Russia to intervene.

There is one more compelling argument.The indisputable fact is that Pres.Putin's aircraft was not far behind.We are also told today that an AI flight was just half a min. behind the MH aircraft.PM Modi's aircraft was also in the air corridor around the same time.Pres.Putin is a thorn in the flesh of the West,US in particular,he has refused to allow Russia to become a vassal state of the West,kowtowing to the US or NATO,firmly resisting its expansionist ambitions.He has stymied the West in the Middle East,in Syria,supported Iran's legitimate N-interests,resisted the Ukraine from falling totally into Western corporate hands through the illegal coup that has brought the current regime into power,and with speed integrated the Crimea into Russia.The BRICS summit and formation of the BRICS bank which threatens to destroy the supremacy of the once almighty $ was perhaps the last straw.What better opportunity to down Putin's aircraft in the "fog of war" while returning home? Lest anyone forgets,the late UN Sec-Gen Dag Hammerskjold's aircraft was shot down over then Rhodesia and the plot covered up by British authorities.
(Read the story details in the link).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/a ... eral-crash
Dag Hammarskjöld: evidence suggests UN chief's plane was shot down
Eyewitnesses claim a second aircraft fired at the plane raising questions of British cover-up over the 1961 crash and its causes

This was a one-time golden opportunity to remove Pres.Putin from the scene permanently.There would be chaos in determining how his aircraft was shot down,by whom,the blame put upon the anti-UKR forces which would've killed off any further support for them from an enraged Russia.Money talks.The UKR is flush with unlimited money covertly provided for by the US,which is orchestrating the UKR's military campaign out of Kiev,where the son of the US Veep is also heavily involved.Cui Bono? No prizes for the correct answer!

PS:More details on the Hammarskjold assassination.

The investigation led Björkdahl to previously unpublished telegrams – seen by the Guardian – from the days leading up to Hammarskjöld's death on 17 September 1961, which illustrate US and British anger at an abortive UN military operation that the secretary general ordered on behalf of the Congolese government against a rebellion backed by western mining companies and mercenaries in the mineral-rich Katanga region.

Hammarskjöld was flying to Ndola for peace talks with the Katanga leadership at a meeting that the British helped arrange. The fiercely independent Swedish diplomat had, by then, enraged almost all the major powers on the security council with his support for decolonisation, but support from developing countries meant his re-election as secretary general would have been virtually guaranteed at the general assembly vote due the following year.

Björkdahl concludes that:

• Hammarskjöld's plane was almost certainly shot down by an unidentified second plane.

• The actions of the British and Northern Rhodesian officials at the scene delayed the search for the missing plane.

• The wreckage was found and sealed off by Northern Rhodesian troops and police long before its discovery was officially announced.

• The one survivor of the crash could have been saved but was allowed to die in a poorly equipped local hospital.

• At the time of his death Hammarskjöld suspected British diplomats secretly supported the Katanga rebellion and had obstructed a bid to arrange a truce.

• Days before his death, Hammarskjöld authorised a UN offensive on Katanga – codenamed Operation Morthor – despite reservations of the UN legal adviser, to the fury of the US and Britain.

The most compelling new evidence comes from witnesses who had not previously been interviewed, mostly charcoal-makers from the forest around Ndola, now in their 70s and 80s.

Dickson Mbewe, now 84, was sitting outside his house in Chifubu compound west of Ndola with a group of friends on the night of the crash.

"We saw a plane fly over Chifubu but did not pay any attention to it the first time," he told the Guardian. "When we saw it a second and third time, we thought that this plane was denied landing permission at the airport. Suddenly, we saw another aircraft approach the bigger aircraft at greater speed and release fire which appeared as a bright light.

"The plane on the top turned and went in another direction. We sensed the change in sound of the bigger plane. It went down and disappeared."

Another witness, Custon Chipoya, a 75-year-old charcoal maker, also claims to have seen a second plane in the sky that night. "I saw a plane turning, it had clear lights and I could hear the roaring sound of the engine," he said. "It wasn't very high. In my opinion, it was at the height that planes are when they are going to land.

"It came back a second time, which made us look and the third time, when it was turning towards the airport, I saw a smaller plane approaching behind the bigger one. The lighter aircraft, a smaller jet type of plane, was trailing behind and had a flash light. Then it released some fire on to the bigger plane below and went in the opposite direction.

"The bigger aircraft caught fire and started exploding, crashing towards us. We thought it was following us as it chopped off branches and tree trunks. We thought it was war, so we ran away."

At the end of his investigation Björkdahl is still not sure who killed Hammarskjöld, but he is fairly certain why he was killed: "It's clear there were a lot of circumstances pointing to possible involvement by western powers. The motive was there – the threat to the west's interests in Congo's huge mineral deposits. And this was the time of black African liberation, and you had whites who were desperate to cling on.

The similarities between Hammarskjold's assassination and the MH disaster where Putin could've very easily been the victim appear to be no coincidence.Hammarskjold yesterday,Putin today,both defying Western global interests.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jul 2014 08:18

Fighters travel much faster than civilian slow flying fat ducks AKA 777s ?

Nope. No reason to, unless they are flying away to escape other fighters and have no missiles left. The SAMs that can get up that high are pretty big things, you don't store them by the hundreds but much smaller numbers. So, no reason to waste them on a random airliner.

OTOH, I thought all modern 777s etc carried missile warning systems and some chaff etc. Or did the Malaysians decide they didn't need those? Was this a radar-guided missile or a heat-seeking one?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Jul 2014 08:44

Russia and America lobby silent India - Delhi key for Moscow seat at G20 table

American and Russian diplomats have for the past two days been burning the phone lines with their Indian counterparts in New Delhi, Washington and Moscow, hunting for assurances of support for their nation or for hints of angst against the other.

But evidence from the crash in the coming weeks and months, a US official said, may make it hard for India not to at least distance itself from Russia.

“It could become uncomfortable for a nation aspiring to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council to be seen as tacitly condoning supporters of a major international crime,” the official said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 09:13

>> thought all modern 777s etc carried missile warning systems and some chaff etc. Or did the Malaysians decide they didn't need those? Was this a radar-guided missile or a heat-seeking one?

no civilian airliner except El-Al carries such kit. and El-Al installed after a couple of MANPADS missed its plane in mombasa I think.

Buk is ground radar guided for initial ascent and then has onboard active radar for final phase.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Jul 2014 09:38

UlanBatori wrote: ...
It's a PTI report. DRDO routinely uses PTI to encrypt press releases.
Encrypt they did, all right. So the MH17 flight was NOT on radar? Not notified to ATC?

and Modi's aircraft is Air Force One, apparently. Is the minister being quoted an idiot, or is the report just something filtered through an idiot's brain?

Don't they have composition teachers in schools any more, the kind who would throw the wide-ruled book in the face of students submitting especially egregious tripe?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 09:47

From UK

New defence chief tells Putin: You're sponsoring terror now quit Ukraine in the most outspoken response to crisis from any senior western politician

Michael Fallon accuses Vladimir Putin of 'sponsoring terrorism'
Warned there is a danger of Russian president 'egging on' separatists
'There will be repercussions' if it emerges Putin was behind jet hit, he says

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Jul 2014 09:54

Kakkaji wrote:Russia and America lobby silent India - Delhi key for Moscow seat at G20 table

American and Russian diplomats have for the past two days been burning the phone lines with their Indian counterparts in New Delhi, Washington and Moscow, hunting for assurances of support for their nation or for hints of angst against the other.

But evidence from the crash in the coming weeks and months, a US official said, may make it hard for India not to at least distance itself from Russia.

“It could become uncomfortable for a nation aspiring to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council to be seen as tacitly condoning supporters of a major international crime,” the official said.

The Russians are "supporters ... international crime" in exactly the same way that Modi is a "supporter of genocide of Muslims": it is true because some people, wonderful in their own estimation, stated that it must be so.

Will India under Modi allow this kind of thinking to fly?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Jul 2014 10:47

How good is this source? (consortiumnews.com)
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/ai ... -judgment/

Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.

According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility.

A contrary emphasis has been given to the Washington Post and other mainstream U.S. outlets. On Saturday, the Post reported that “on Friday, U.S. officials said a preliminary intelligence assessment indicated the airliner was blown up by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by the separatists.” But the objectivity of the Obama administration, which has staunchly supported the coup regime, is in question as are the precise reasons for its judgments.

Even before the Feb. 22 coup, senior administration officials, including Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, were openly encouraging protesters seeking the overthrow of Yanukovych. Nuland went so far as to pass out cookies to the demonstrators and discuss with Pyatt who should be appointed once Yanukovych was removed.

After Yanukovych and his officials were forced to flee in the face of mass protests and violent attacks by neo-Nazi militias, the State Department was quick to declare the new government “legitimate” and welcomed Nuland’s favorite, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, as the new prime minister.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Jul 2014 10:51

Haven't seen this here:

It was Putin's missile!

by Pepe Escobar

And what about Carlos?
A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... eing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 20 Jul 2014 11:05

This whole thing is being turned into a Lockerbie, were the perpetrators similarly declared within first couple of days during that incident? (I was too young to have followed the details).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 11:54

ukraine claims it has intel showing 3 Buk TELARs drove back into russia in the night, around 10 hrs after the incident.
whatever be the alleged role of these 'rebel Buks' they and their operators are out of reach now back in whatever military base they disappeared into.

if the rebels shot it down, it is possible a faction of the ukraine maidan types baited the rebel SAM unit by deliberately flying two military planes close to the airliner, knowing the mil planes could see the SAM coming up and deftly escape, leaving the poor civil plane to take the hit. and these factions are usually the types most chummy with various foreign 'contractor' types who must be running SIGINT and IMINT stations down in kiev to help out the govt forces. there could even be multiple sets of 'contractors' answering to different chains of command back in GHQ, each working on their own agendas and desired outcomes. some may want a stalemate, some a open war with russia, some a govt victory in eastern ukraine.....

nobody is a neutral in this dirty game.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 20 Jul 2014 11:58

UlanBatori wrote:I am trying to make sense of this report, with no success at all.

Did anyone notice that the report refers to the PM's plane as Air Force One, instead of Air India One!
Too much Hollywood, I think

Edit: Just saw KLN Murthy's post

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 20 Jul 2014 12:01

Russia and America lobby silent India - Delhi key for Moscow seat at G20 table

American and Russian diplomats have for the past two days been burning the phone lines with their Indian counterparts in New Delhi, Washington and Moscow, hunting for assurances of support for their nation or for hints of angst against the other.

But evidence from the crash in the coming weeks and months, a US official said, may make it hard for India not to at least distance itself from Russia.

“It could become uncomfortable for a nation aspiring to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council to be seen as tacitly condoning supporters of a major international crime,” the official said.

There is a pro-west slant in the article.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 20 Jul 2014 13:08

One more data point. I wanted to check the max ceiling height of AN-26. Its about 26500 feet. This civvy bird was at 33k feet.

My qn: Do the radars also show the height of the target when they essentially "lock in". If it were an radar altimeter device too, I am assuming the guy who is handling a Buk will atleast need to know that the respective heights of reference of the birds he wants to shoot. Say, if this theory were true, then the person will naturally have his doubts when he sees the height as 33k feet - no AN-26 travels at that height at all. Unless they want to severely damage the plane & its various components.

It still seems quite weird that people naturally assume that its quite easy to really make an inadvertent error and shoot a civvy plane midair.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 20 Jul 2014 13:42

looks like the good folks of the Donetsk Republic might be doing a little credit card looting from the bodies they have so far refused to turn over to the victims families.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain ... ds-n160246

They are a class act.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 13:51

How can they use credit card without knowing the PIN Code ? Can credit be used without the person knowing security details like passcode or something similar ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 13:51

Stephen Cohen: Downed Malaysian Plane Raises Risk of War Between Russia and the West

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 20 Jul 2014 14:03

Austin wrote:How can they use credit card without knowing the PIN Code ? Can credit be used without the person knowing security details like passcode or something similar ?

yes but not bank atm cards

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Jul 2014 14:28

Austin wrote:How can they use credit card without knowing the PIN Code ? Can credit be used without the person knowing security details like passcode or something similar ?

most banks have started asking for PIN when using debit/credit card

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 14:44

All indian banks for sure have implemented this for pos sales and otp pin sent to mobile for online or internet login pwd. Nobody gets a free pass now with just cc number , expiry date and cvv.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Jul 2014 15:35

TSJones wrote:looks like the good folks of the Donetsk Republic might be doing a little credit card looting from the bodies they have so far refused to turn over to the victims families.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain ... ds-n160246

They are a class act.

Should have fixed currencies and countries instead. That is izzatdaari.

....................................

This Buk waghera looks a lot of bull to me. Buk is the lowest ranged SAM that could have reached that height.

Buk is very dangerous against even the smaller faster agile fighter jets. This was one fat buffalo. The kind that shines on the radar from 350 km away. There was no challenge w.r.t. accuracy. Moreover the warhead a Buk carries has a lethal radius of around 50 mtrs. (similar Akash has a fuze primed for 30 mtr - perhaps because India uses a cheapt ier warhead but very good radars for it). If this was some combined effects warhead then it would be lethal for an even longer distance. If it was some continuous rod one then it would have cut open large part of the aircraft. The kind of kill radius available on such a SAM, against such a big target would have ensured that the whole thing fall apart in the sky itself. May be a big fireball too considering the broad wings would have been carrying large amounts of fuel still.

Somebody probably just fed this Buk 'input' because it was the most plausible smallest ranged of all the alternative SAMs that can hit at that altitude. Buk's range was in the sweet spot so somebody just gave some lifafa to some journalist and ....

BTW what was the foreign policy of Malaysians like. Which side can hit the Malays like the way they have been hit?

CT alert - What if the MH370 was a trial run in sabotage, MSM management, opinion control and isharebazzi. It may be too radical to accept that people may be getting fooled but it is not impossible.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2014 15:57

Except for the heavy propaganda machinery of US, I have zero absolute zero evidence of russian or ukranian freedom fighter involvement.

My bet is on and there is absolutely no evidence to contradict that the ukranian clique trying to do a repeat of what the US did during the vietnam war, the tolkin lie or may be it was the US which was directly involved.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 20 Jul 2014 16:35

krishnan wrote:
Austin wrote:How can they use credit card without knowing the PIN Code ? Can credit be used without the person knowing security details like passcode or something similar ?
most banks have started asking for PIN when using debit/credit card

I think this is mainly an Indian feature. Lots of non-Indian credit cards don't need a pin number.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 16:56

malaysia has no clout on the international stage or even among the higher players in the Ummah.
but they run a big airline.

so in that sense a easy whipping boy and fall guy to test anything that needs testing by the real players.

if a 3rd Malay plane meets some other kind of disaster, we can be sure its not a coincidence. it is already miraculous that among 100s of heavies going over ukraine day and night, its the malay plane that was hit and not any more powerful/'with backing' player

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 20 Jul 2014 17:03

ravi_g wrote:This Buk waghera looks a lot of bull to me. Buk is the lowest ranged SAM that could have reached that height.

Buk is very dangerous against even the smaller faster agile fighter jets. This was one fat buffalo. The kind that shines on the radar from 350 km away. There was no challenge w.r.t. accuracy. Moreover the warhead a Buk carries has a lethal radius of around 50 mtrs. (similar Akash has a fuze primed for 30 mtr - perhaps because India uses a cheapt ier warhead but very good radars for it). If this was some combined effects warhead then it would be lethal for an even longer distance. If it was some continuous rod one then it would have cut open large part of the aircraft. The kind of kill radius available on such a SAM, against such a big target would have ensured that the whole thing fall apart in the sky itself. May be a big fireball too considering the broad wings would have been carrying large amounts of fuel still.

What is puzzling to me is there is no reported evidence of fumes in the sky for missile attack. If it is missile attack, how can this plane crashed in one piece as shown in photos/videos? It would have blown into pieces in the sky and pieces burnt/remaining are spreas across very large geographical location.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2014 17:15

ShyamSP wrote:
What is puzzling to me is there is no reported evidence of fumes in the sky for missile attack. If it is missile attack, how can this plane crashed in one piece as shown in photos/videos? It would have blown into pieces in the sky and pieces burnt/remaining are spreas across very large geographical location.

Not exactly true, the answer in short is it depends on a multitude of factors.

However the point is as of today, there has been zero evidence that there has been a missile and the missile is russian originated and that it was launched by ukranian freedom fighters, not the kiev clique - yet the largest ever propaganda machinery is going to its brain dead sheep with nothing but "big bad russia" and thinking that saying multiple times its propaganda, people will start thinking it must be true. I am seeing that this propaganda is succeeding as can be evidenced by this thread itself.

TSJones,

what are your evidences (not propaganda) or even hint of verifiable evidences which even point out to role of russia before you became convinced of it. Because except for kerry and obama jumping up and down with mikes in front showing off their usual obnoxiousness, I see nothing and yet you are here trying to use this board as a pulpit for spreading their gospel. The question I am asking you is simple, what convinced you - not Obama, not Kerry who want to control ukranian oil - what convinced you??

PS: I am just trying to understand the american approach to pure unadultered propaganda.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2014 17:20

using the keep it simple principle, two crashes of same type of planes operated by same operator. Instead of the outlandish propaganda being dealt out from the west

Is there a problem in the boeing 777-200ER which is being exasperated by faults in malaysian maintainance?

Vriksh · Post by **Vriksh** » 20 Jul 2014 17:42

Possibilities in order of probability

0) Maintenance bug took out the MH17

1) SAM like the BUK. However no reliable data in open source indicates any visuals of a BUK pickled off so far. The transcript and intercept needs to be validated. Who did it is even bigger question?

2) Given the similarity of color markings of MH17 and Putin's Antonov jet there is a possibility that a stealth drone/fighter capable of firing AA missiles or guns from air took out the MH17 by mistake instead of Putin's plane. This is madness as only the USA holds that kind of capability to my knowledge. If per chance this was a Russian regime change operation gone bad then nothing is off limits from now on.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jul 2014 17:54

The US really has double standards, the shooting of an Iranian civelian airliner in 1988 by USS Wincenz was not a war crime, but somehow in this case where we dont even know if Ukraine shot down the aircraft is considered as a war crime, what about the numerous cases where stingers have caused loss of life.

While the shooting down of MH 17 is very tragic, the Western proganda machine and the Indian stooges coverage is really pathetic. The CIA which started the coupe in Ukraine should really be responsible. I fear for many Nato hawks the cold war never ended and they will not rest until Russia is broken up, They could easily cause a threshold and we have WW3 on our hands. It would be good if these hawks in SD and other Nato countries are discredited before they take too far.

Ukraine using Fighter jets and attack helicopters like Saddam Hussein did on the Kurds was Kosher for these people, The Ukrainian president and parliment must be dissolved and a new national reconciliation Govt should be formed.

Can anyone tell me why NATO still exists?, is it to bully Russia and Syria if Assad forces kill 1 Turkish soldier Nato will the shit out of SYria?

I think for world peace, NATO needs to be dissolved, otherwise we are going to continue to have conflicts till one day it goes too far.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Jul 2014 17:56

Would it not be possible that some ragtag but trained militia was paid by select interests to target this plane for select interests ( of part of Ukrainian authority themselves).
I had previously mentioned the present of world renowned HIV scientist on this flight some of who work working for cheap cures. People have been assassinated for less
Who else was on this flight?

Lots of theories on mistakes etc but hat about this, they got the right plane and the right people in the plane. Hijacking is too hard and responsibility can be traced. Perhaps Malaysian airlines is a lot more cautious after the incident earlier this year so tinkering is hard but a plane diverted over a earlobe will create enough chaos and noise to camouflage the real reason. Secondary benefit is that enemies will et blamed for this action through the drama.

If plane downing was deliberate than this is clearly mercenary action. So important to understand who was in plane and which groups in that region have done mercenary stuff.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jul 2014 18:00

But!, you'll recall the intercepted communication told of rebels saying "we were told it's an AN-26 but it looks like a civilian plane..."

Anyone who ordered the flight diverted to go over a combat zone AND ordered it to descend to 33,000 feet (edge of the troposphere), is also capable of "intercepting" messages "proving" whatever they want to prove. So absolutely no credibility to this report.

Also, the UkBapzis are more likely than anyone else, to have shot down a plane identified as an AN-26, apparently cruising in returning to Russian airspace.

If it was a "rebel" missile launcher, why were there no Ukrainian air strikes once the launcher was located? Considering that the whole of Ukraine is under the control of Chocolate and Arsenic (Phillip: reads like Agatha Christie + Perry Mason

)

Most likely, it was an UkBapZi launcher operated by "contractors".

The UkBapZis and their US-UK co-conspirators are clearly an evil threat to world peace.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Jul 2014 18:23

Singha wrote:ukraine claims it has intel showing 3 Buk TELARs drove back into russia in the night, around 10 hrs after the incident.
whatever be the alleged role of these 'rebel Buks' they and their operators are out of reach now back in whatever military base they disappeared into.

if the rebels shot it down, it is possible a faction of the ukraine maidan types baited the rebel SAM unit by deliberately flying two military planes close to the airliner, knowing the mil planes could see the SAM coming up and deftly escape, leaving the poor civil plane to take the hit. and these factions are usually the types most chummy with various foreign 'contractor' types who must be running SIGINT and IMINT stations down in kiev to help out the govt forces. there could even be multiple sets of 'contractors' answering to different chains of command back in GHQ, each working on their own agendas and desired outcomes. some may want a stalemate, some a open war with russia, some a govt victory in eastern ukraine.....

nobody is a neutral in this dirty game.

I an Satya-yug man only, but hai Allah! Will they go to such elaborate and complex lengths, take so much risk (one of their fighters might itself have taken the SAM hit), to commit such a grave sin, all to get a propagandu advantage?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Jul 2014 18:36

vijaykarthik wrote:
krishnan wrote:
most banks have started asking for PIN when using debit/credit card
I think this is mainly an Indian feature. Lots of non-Indian credit cards don't need a pin number.

When I recently transited through Dubai and tried to use US Discover card, I was asked for a PIN number. I am guessing PIN number feature is more common in non-US world in general.

But anyway, I imagine some sort of fraud is possible; Ukraine has a reputation in US (take that for what it is worth) as a hotbed of high-skill international fraud.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Jul 2014 18:39

KLNMurthy wrote: I an Satya-yug man only, but hai Allah! Will they go to such elaborate and complex lengths, take so much risk (one of their fighters might itself have taken the SAM hit), to commit such a grave sin, all to get a propagandu advantage?

US launched vietnam war and got 60000 of its soldiers killed by hyping an attack which never occured.
the iraq war was launched based on "WMD".

US killed 290 people including 60 children on iranian flight 655 while the civilian flight was following ALL the rules which a civilian aircraft should follow.

and that is the satya yug following US.

So in short yes.

It is also not about propaganda, it is about getting countries who do not have a bone to pick in the fight to choose your side.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 19:17

Virupaksha wrote:Except for the heavy propaganda machinery of US, I have zero absolute zero evidence of russian or ukranian freedom fighter involvement.

My bet is on and there is absolutely no evidence to contradict that the ukranian clique trying to do a repeat of what the US did during the vietnam war, the tolkin lie or may be it was the US which was directly involved.

Propoganda is fine as politics has taken over unfortunate tragedy.

But if Obama says the missile is fired from some where in Rebels area and if Kerry as he said today in CNN that the BUK came from Russia , Then they should hand such irrefutable evidence to UN or Investigating body and then shame Russia.

Not the evidence that Colin Powel presented in UN security council claiming the Detergent Powder he had was Nuclear Weapons proof for Iraq.

Rhetoric is not a substitute for credible evidence .....The US expects that if POTUS makes tall claims from White House Press then the World should believe it. Kerry the less said the better.

Other then UK and Australia every one is waiting for investigation to begin and truth unearthed

The Fact that CNN and similar channel is running the story Live 24x7 shows they have an agenda and axe to grind.