Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

[UlanBatori]

The trouble with "easing blockade" etc is quite obvious:

If you give 100 paise to an Indian, she will use 99 paise to help feed and educate her children, open a Post Office Savings passbook, use the interest from there to buy a brick to slowly build a home. 1 paisa she may agree to give to the government to buy weapons to keep the Pakis away. In a few years those children will graduate, get jobs, also save money, and educate their children at Harvard or EyeEyeTee...

If you give 100 paise to a Gaza resident, she will today try to buy food with 10 paise, give 30 paise to the Hamas, and the Hamas will extort the other 70 paise, all to buy rockets and soosai vests and dig cement-lined tunnels. And offer the hungry kids food and a ticket to Houristan if they will agree to wear soosai vests.

How can this be changed? Israel has tried using Gaza and West Bank as buffer zones. No luck.

The only solution I can see is what I posted b4:

1. A UN-controlled (not because the UN has a record of doing anything like that, but because there isn't anyone else) COMPLETE ban on weapons in a buffer zone consisting of all the Occupied territories in today's Israel, and ALL its borders.
2. NO weapons allowed.
3. No explosives.
4. All chemicals subject to IAEA-type Mass Conservation controls. This has been proved technically possible.
5. No democracy to decide on this.
6. For 30 years. Enough to bring up a generation that will prefer to use 99 out of 100 paise for growth and only 1 if needed for law enforcement and defence.

IOW, TSA-type controls at all inflow and outflow points (I think they are already there, in theory). Plus IAEA-type micro-inspections. It will take $$$$$BBBB to implement this, but I see no alternative. Ppl who do not wish to live under this regime should be allowed to leave, and I would suggest giving them some $$$ to help them settle somewhere else.

To make the Solution less unpalatable, lots of economic benefits should be poured into these territories, bringing their standard of living up to the level of the best in the world. Universities (no weapons programs), health, energy, infrastructure. Generate useful employment and trade, BUT... no freedom to bring any weapons in. Maybe they have to come up with solutions such as cutting meat with knive-bladess that are not exposed longer than 1 inch. Or bring in pre-cut meat. Technically, it can be done.

Of course this sounds totally impractical, but can you suggest less impractical "solutions"? Right now, much as they would scream at the suggestion, Israel appears to be going for an Adolf-type "Final Solution": clean out the buffer zone of humans, fill them with Israeli settlers instead. Since the Israelis HAVE to be very Realist, they HAVE to go forward with this as the only practical scheme - as far as they can without triggering massive international retaliation. I am sure someone sits on Ben Gurion Avenue and worries about this algorithm much more than I do.

Ppl like Jo Kerry are just disasters. Israel needs to stand up and recognize that as well.

[JE Menon]

Holy crap, those buggers are actually shagging that goat... and the rest of the guys there are just getting on with life as if it is the most normal thing in the world... The poor goat. Of course, who knows whether it is Hamas or just ordinary civilians, but either way... This whole situation is getting out of hand, when even goats have no respite.

[member_22733]

How can I unsee that clip??!!!

I have watched videos of violent decapitation, suicide bombings, stonings etc. They are all horrible and gory. However I have never felt this disgusted and horrified.

[krisna]

Holy crap, those buggers are actually shagging that goat... and the rest of the guys there are just getting on with life as if it is the most normal thing in the world... The poor goat. Of course, who knows whether it is Hamas or just ordinary civilians, but either way... This whole situation is getting out of hand, when even goats have no respite.

I can't see the clip. It is unavailable
Not that I am interested

[Shanmukh]

Philip-ji,
Haaretz is the mouthpiece of the Israeli Labour (HaAvoda). The Labour are the only ones still in favour of negotiating with the Palestinians. If they are criticising Kerry's draft, then I want to see the full draft that has been sent.

[nachiket]

The hue and cry about India voting against Israel at the UN vote is unnecessary methinks. There have been countless such votes in the UN where most countries, including India always voted against the Israel with the US usually being the only odd one out. The Israelis (wisely) never cared two hoots about any of them. The UN is a powerless and useless organization. Only the UNSC has any real power to change things on the ground and Israel is well protected in there. They would not have thought twice about who voted which way. All countries, including India, who perennially vote against them have very good relations with them otherwise and that never changes.

However, we need to accept the bitter truth that the real reason for India not having the cojones to even abstain is not our relations with Arab countries, but our own Muslim population. They hate the Israelis and love the Palestinians as much as any Arab. Until we somehow deal with this dichotomy amongst our own, our official line on the Israel-Palestine issue won't change. The new govt. seems to be changing things in Parliament a bit. But it'll be a while before it trickles down to the MEA babus if it ever does. People should really watch that Yes Prime Minister episode about the Israel vote like Surya said to see how things work.

[devesh]

Good news brothers and sisters!

it seems as if India's vote against Israel has really helped India's image with Kashmiri Islamists. they are expressing their undying gratitude. See below:

http://www.risingkashmir.com/palestine- ... n-mirwaiz/

Palestine, Kashmir victims of suppression: Mirwaiz

Hurriyat Conference (M) chaimran, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq Friday lead an anti-Israel rally in downtown Srinagar and said Palestine and Kashmir are the victims of suppression and both the disputes should be solved as per the aspirations of its people.

“Both the Kashmir and Palestinian issues are present on UN agenda from past many decades and till these issues are not solved in accordance with the wishes of its people, peace economic prosperity and stability would not return to South Asia and Middle East,” Mirwaiz said while addressing Friday congregational prayers at historic Jamia Masjid, here.
He said the world community should impose an economic boycott on Israel to stop its atrocious acts against the innocent Palestinian people.

“Israel must be forced by international community to end genocide of Palestinians and allow people in Gaza to return to their homes. Like apartheid in South Africa, the world community must show international solidarity with Palestinians and impose sanctions and economic boycott on Israel,” Hurriyat (G) chairman said.

After the Friday prayers, Mirwaiz lead a massive anti-Israel rally at Jamia Masjid.

While addressing the processionists, Mirwaiz termed silence of Muslim world over Palestinian issue as an indirect support for Israeli acts.

“Instead of adopting the criminal silence, Muslim countries should adopt a solid foreign policy to deal with Israel and free the Palestinians from its slavery,” he said.

He strongly condemned the Israeli attacks on Gaza and appealed international community to take cognizance of the situation in the Middle East.

“I appeal UN and OIC to take concrete steps to rescue the Palestinian people. Criminal silence of world community including UN, NAM, OIC, Arab league and other organizations against the Israeli oppression on innocent Palestinians is a highly condemnable act,” he said.

Mirwaiz passed a resolution in the rally seeking end to Israeli attacks in Gaza, expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people, recognizing the rights of oppressed Palestinians.

He said Jumat-ul-vida (last Friday of Ramadan) will be observed as Youm-e-Qudus and Youm-e-Kashmir.

implicit is the threat that unless Islamic demands on Kashmir are met, "peace and prosperity" will not be allowed to prevail.

[UlanBatori]

I can't see the clip. It is unavailable

The Pakis must have sued You-Tube and the IDF for mislabeling their own original selfie. IslooWood. Starring Brinjej Ayesha.

[JwalaMukhi]

However, we need to accept the bitter truth that the real reason for India not having the cojones to even abstain is not our relations with Arab countries, but our own Muslim population. They hate the Israelis and love the Palestinians as much as any Arab.

Appeasement is bad and very very bad. Especially, when driving the IQ of minorities even further down.
BTW, they love Palestinians as much as any Arab, but that love is more than they can shower towards other Indians. That is unacceptable situation for India to promote. No two ways about it. If ummah triumphs everything else, there is no need to fuel that and encourage such behaviour by rewarding such behaviour.

And if the reason is to appease external arab countries, that is also stupidity. There is not going to be any change of heart in the arab countries as long as one belongs dar-ul-harb. period. Arab countries deftly use one or two good things that they do to cover lot of garbage and brutality towards kaffirs (especially, the kaffirs (and their wimmens) from Indian sub-continent, who occupy lowest position in arab's totem pole).

BTW India also promotes that it occupies the lowest totem pole, by endorsing such stupidity. For example, wasn't a pious man belonging to faithful community demanded to be the Amby of a certain arab country and India readily agree to that. If one wants to be a door mat -there are enough arabs to grant that status.

[devesh]

why not just vote in favor of Israel for one and see what happens?

I look forward to that day. if Muslims go on a rampage, then the public finally sees that the Hindutva-fundamentalists were right all along.

and if Muslims don't really care about anything other than being patriotic Indians who only care about roti-kapda-makan, then of course, the seculars can rejoice that their viewpoint is right.

Is it that our secular friends are so hell bent on demonizing Israel because they fear that the Hindutva fundamentalists are absolutely and entirely right about the Islam?

it seems to me that if Seculars are confident about the patriotism of Muslims, they should choose national interest above all others and vote for Israel. after all, Muslims are patriots too and will put the interest of Ummah behind that of the nation. right?

[brihaspati]

I have also said that I don't see this vote against Israel as a vote for ummah or jihad and neither does the resolution says so though it's strongly worded against Israel but it also calls for ending violence against Israeli civilians as well but since you are selectively reading and picking up points according to your convenience hence you keep coming back to the same thing again and again. The link in my previous post has the link to the resolution.

very nice spin, it is "strongly worded against Israel" but mewls about calling for an end to violence against Israeli civilians. Even by the language of the resolution, you think two sides are being equally lambasted?

You are again concluding wrong I have repeatedly asked that why is India being singled out to receive your ire when the entire non ummah setup has also done the same blunder.

India is being singled out, because we are Indians, and we primarily are concerned in this forum with India. But more than that what you are trying to deflect is the issue that "everyone supporting the Palestinian jihad" including Russia/China, through voting for the resolution, is worthy of ire - but China/Russia's record of bashing jihadis/power projection/territorial-gains all work out in the only language jihadis understand - as a sign and position of strength.

So their vote in favour is not seen as a sign of weakness for them, and therefore not a signal to be encouraging for the jihadis. India's yes vote on the other hand is seen as a sign of weakness, and GOI's inability to displease its own Islamic, and fear of antagonizing the Gulf ummah.

You are repeatedly avoiding this context.

Based on your conclusions about great Russian and Chinese wins against jihadis I asked you to suggest practical steps which the current GoI can take so as to do the same things because then we will also be in a position of power no (which I would love India to be in). You sidestepped it and said that it's a different issue but consistently trying to show India in poor light for not doing those same things !!!

Criticizing for not voting against, given the "signs of weakness" in immediate past records, is not about showing India in poor light. Its about doing the best given the past record which cannot be changed or compensated for immediately. That next-to-best action would have been at the least an abstinence in consistence with Sushma Swaraj's line of "friends on both sides", and the best would have been voting against. That would have equally shown that India is no longer hostage to its own internal or external Islamic population, and that it may pursue more aggressive and non-appeasement policies towards India's enemies - especially of the Ummah, and ummah supporting types in the hood -like China.

Bring in China as role-model, after you can whack the Kashmiri jihad like PLA did in Sinkiang, regularly execute/eliminate jihadis as again done in Sinkiang, and much much more than IA is allowed do, whack public demos as in Sinkiang - and after occupying without much murmur of protest territories of neighbours.

You cannot hold the current GoI guilty for inaction of the last setup especially when they have been in power for two months only.

Not much action was being required here, except abstaining or voting against in an air-conditioned chamber of cackling diplomats. But it would have sent a signal of a change in intent and response mindset.

The compromise solution would have been abstaining.

Even by not doing so doesn't mean that GoI is going to back down against Islamist forces and moves like these show it's intent.

Union Minister of State for Youth Affairs and Sports Sarbananda Sonowal today said that the Centre had till now released Rs 144 crore to Assam for updating the National Register of Citizens (NRC) following a Supreme Court directive in 2006.

"The Supreme Court had asked the state government in 2006 to expedite the process of detection and deportation of illegal Bangladeshi nationals residing in Assam through the Foreigners' Tribunals. The Congress-led governments, both at the state and Centre, however, did nothing much," Sonowal told reporters here.

You are touting this as a strong intent to deal with jihadis in a way China does? It is merely about doing what is required naturally as making the international border worth its name. It should be happening with all borders/border areas, and has nothing in particular to do with jihadis.

Where did I make any statement that I believed Israel was dancing with joy at EU behaviour? EU abstention is relatively painful for Israel as they expected more by tradition. If a lot of countries are de facto whitewashing Hamas, does it justify India doing so? What is the connection of other countries going in favour of Hamas and Palestinian jihad, to India doing the same?

The resolution states nothing as you try and paint it to be if you think otherwise please point out the specific section in there which are in favour of Hamas and Palestinian jihad or make a call for the same.

The question was about your trying to justify India's action by citing "look X,Y,Z also did so". Have you yourself read it fully?

Reaffirming the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people and the inadmissibility of the acquisition of land by the use of force, as enshrined in the Charter,
......
Welcoming the establishment of the Palestinian national consensus Government on 2 July 2014 as an important step towards Palestinian reconciliation, which is crucial for achieving a two-State solution based on the pre-1967 borders and lasting peace, and emphasizing that the situation of the occupied Gaza Strip is unsustainable as long as it remains geographically, politically and economically separated from the West Bank,

out of that whole litany of alleged "crimes" in the resolution, by Israel as a state, IDF, and Israeli settlers - there is just one oh-so-significant condemnation of "killing of 2" Israeli civilians by "rockets". NO mention of Hamas violence, no mention of rockets, no mention of tunnels - and you still can't see why the resolution is in favour of Palestinian jihad? or you dont want to see it?

The resolution also clearly "welcomes" the "national consensus gov" on 2nd july: pray what are the constituents of that "consensus" gov, and what are their respective charters, current and ongoing jihadi statements of intent?

I also gave a rough country-based breakup and identified the ideological positions. I asked you to give which of those motivations in these countries that voted against, do you think fits India. You havent touched those issues.

Well their wasn't a huge list to choose from all you gave was

So they all voted out of ongoing anti-US games, or religious competition, and pro-Islamic views. Is India in any of these categories?

Since we don't fit the second and third choice hence the only one left to pick is first one.

So India voted "for" just to pique/oppose USA?

I thought you wanted India to decide "independent" of foreign nations in foreign policy - so why are you trying to justify Indian action by action of foreign nations?

I have already answered this multiple times.

No, you havent. If India's action was independent of the others voting for, then your demand to criticize India only after criticizing all others - is a contradiction. If Indias actions were really taken independent of foreign other countries, then, it can be criticized independently of others.

[svenkat]

I think India has no illusions about muslims.But muslims outside Bharat varsha are not our enemies.Theres nothing wrong in supporting palestinians against zionist aggressors.

Israel is fundamentally an imperial enterprise by mleccha christists to get rid of jews at mohammedan expense.Israel strikes at the fundamentals of universalism,humanism,human rights,'the judeo-christian' nonsense the west is supposed to embody.Israel has no moral basis.It was created at someones expense.Its genocidal land conquest.Israel need to be accused,pilloried and shamed for its naked aggression.The jewish state has to be reminded of its cruelty,immorality,aggression and this cruelty is a stark reminder of the fundamental hollowness of jewish religious claims.

US as the defender of the fake judeo-christian (identity created after world war 2) heritage needs to be put in the dock as the supporter of genocidal,territorial imperialist aggression.The US and Western Europe need to be put in the defensive in the mockery called UNHRC.The UNHRC follows Western agenda against India using human rights selectively against Indian political interests.Look at western record of instigating problems against SL in UNHRC.I think the eezham question is a challenge to any reasonable vision of Pax-Indica but the West has furthered its agenda in eezham for the last 100 years and they use UNHRC as a tool to further their interests in eezham.

I dont think Indian diplomats are fools.They look at india from the perspective of the Hindu civilisation with its incredible diversity.The West has created artificial narratives.These need to be challenged,ridiculed and mocked at.

[ramana]

Your last line is right. As to rest of it think about complexity of the matter and view it through our interests

[svenkat]

ramanaji,
UNHRC is a sick joke.India has contempt for it.Our vote is not against Israel,a state strong enough to protect itself.But against the western narrative of universalism.Israel is against every canon of that 'universalism'.India has to remind the US about this aspect as well as the fundamental hollowness of the jewish spiritual heritage which has founded a nation on such profound injustice.

[JE Menon]

I used to wonder how Arabs got this immunized to reality, and thought it was phenomenon directly related to absolutism, but clearly that's not the only explanation...

[devesh]

I think India has no illusions about muslims.But muslims outside Bharat varsha are not our enemies.Theres nothing wrong in supporting palestinians against zionist aggressors.

Israel is fundamentally an imperial enterprise by mleccha christists to get rid of jews at mohammedan expense.Israel strikes at the fundamentals of universalism,humanism,human rights,'the judeo-christian' nonsense the west is supposed to embody.Israel has no moral basis.It was created at someones expense.Its genocidal land conquest.Israel need to be accused,pilloried and shamed for its naked aggression.The jewish state has to be reminded of its cruelty,immorality,aggression and this cruelty is a stark reminder of the fundamental hollowness of jewish religious claims.

US as the defender of the fake judeo-christian (identity created after world war 2) heritage needs to be put in the dock as the supporter of genocidal,territorial imperialist aggression.The US and Western Europe need to be put in the defensive in the mockery called UNHRC.The UNHRC follows Western agenda against India using human rights selectively against Indian political interests.Look at western record of instigating problems against SL in UNHRC.I think the eezham question is a challenge to any reasonable vision of Pax-Indica but the West has furthered its agenda in eezham for the last 100 years and they use UNHRC as a tool to further their interests in eezham.

I dont think Indian diplomats are fools.They look at india from the perspective of the Hindu civilisation with its incredible diversity.The West has created artificial narratives.These need to be challenged,ridiculed and mocked at.

there is no "Indian muslims" and "foreign muslims". as long as the essential Islamic narrative of global Jihad and the theological and religious infrastructure remains a global unit of interlinked institutions, all such mythical differences of "Indian" vs "foreign" muslims is meaningless.

this is delusional thinking on an astronomical scale.

more than 250 years ago, this very same Muslim agenda of Global Jihad was the foundation on which such esteemed Jihadis as Shah Waliullah and other North-Indian Muslim despots invited Abdali and the 3rd Panipat Battle was fought for this reason. this incident would ensure that the last iteration of Hindu geopolity which clearly recognized Islam as an existential threat to India, was denuded of its expansionist fervor.

Waliullah appealed to Abdali on the basis of Global Islamic Ummah under threat from the Kafirs. the Marathas were dealt a body blow and India's fate took a different direction as the North Indian Jihadis joined hands with their Afghani brothers all those generations ago.

and yet, we forget our own MODERN history and start putting up mythical "foreign" vs "indian" muslim categories, when history clearly shows that time and again, the global ambitions of Islam wreck havoc on Hindus....

[svenkat]

devesh,
I believe that foreign muslims are not a threat to the Indian state,if we can manage our affairs well.OTOH,erstwhile Indian muslims(known as pakis etc) are a threat to the Indian interests.Also we have to be on guard within as well.Surely,you will credit me with some minimal powers of understanding about political nature of Islam,that should have rubbed on me given that I am a member of BRF.

[devesh]

devesh,
I believe that foreign muslims are not a threat to the Indian state,if we can manage our affairs well.OTOH,erstwhile Indian muslims(known as pakis etc) are a threat to the Indian interests.Also we have to be on guard within as well.Surely,you will credit me with some minimal powers of understanding about political nature of Islam,that should have rubbed on me given that I am a member of BRF.So no delusions.

which foreign muslims? Pakis are foreign too, right? for that matter, so are Bangladeshis.

the Muslims in Myanmar are also foreign. those in Thailand, who have shown increasing interest in wiping out Buddhists in Islamic strongholds, are also foreign. Malaysian muslims, who have also been successively electing increasingly Islamized governments to power. Indonesian politics' growing Islamization is also a continuing threat to the last remaining Hindus there. the Muslims in Sri Lanka also have shown a greater interest in Islamizing and proving their "difference" from their fellow Sinhalese, by adopting more and more Arabic practices in dress code, speech, appearance, etc.

the Muslims in Persia were once the elites of Deccan, and took great pride in proving their Ghazi credentials against Kafirs. they were and still are foreign also, no? the Mughals who came from Central Asia were also foreign, no? and yet they established their dominance over North and Central India for generations and became the richest State of their time. but then again, they were also foreign weren't they?

I could keep going on these lines. I'm not even sure you've really even thought about what you're proposing: Islamic history, as recorded by Islamic historians, will entirely and willfully disprove your notions of "indian" vs "foreign" muslims.

[svenkat]

devesh,
reply in OT thread.

[nachiket]

why not just vote in favor of Israel for one and see what happens?

I look forward to that day. if Muslims go on a rampage, then the public finally sees that the Hindutva-fundamentalists were right all along.

and if Muslims don't really care about anything other than being patriotic Indians who only care about roti-kapda-makan, then of course, the seculars can rejoice that their viewpoint is right.

Is it that our secular friends are so hell bent on demonizing Israel because they fear that the Hindutva fundamentalists are absolutely and entirely right about the Islam?

it seems to me that if Seculars are confident about the patriotism of Muslims, they should choose national interest above all others and vote for Israel. after all, Muslims are patriots too and will put the interest of Ummah behind that of the nation. right?

But our sickulars have gone far beyond such pretense. They clearly advocate that it is justified for Indian Muslims to be overly concerned about the Palestinians with no regard to India's interests in the region. Why do you think our netas wanted a resolution against Israel in our Parliament? They weren't doing it out of concern about India's relations with Israel's Arab neighbors. They were looking squarely at what their Muslim voters wanted them to do. So if India does vote i favor of Israel once and there is a Muslim rampage, that too will be justified in our press and Parliament.

[JE Menon]

>>Israel is fundamentally an imperial enterprise by mleccha christists to get rid of jews at mohammedan expense.Israel strikes at the fundamentals of universalism,humanism,human rights,'the judeo-christian' nonsense the west is supposed to embody.Israel has no moral basis.It was created at someones expense.Its genocidal land conquest.

>>Israel need to be accused,pilloried and shamed for its naked aggression.The jewish state has to be reminded of its cruelty,immorality,aggression and this cruelty is a stark reminder of the fundamental hollowness of jewish religious claims.

Assuming the first para is exactly as you say it is (which it is not), who must do the accusing and reminding? And why?

[devesh]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

Israel must be permitted to crush Hamas

By Michael Oren July 24

Michael Oren was Israel’s ambassador to the United States from 2009 to 2013. He currently is a fellow at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya and the Atlantic Council.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary of State John Kerry and the foreign ministers of Great Britain and France all are rushing to achieve a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. Their motive — to end civilian suffering and restore stability to the area — is noble. The images of the wounded and dead resulting from the conflict are indeed agonizing. However, these senior statesmen can be most helpful now by doing nothing. To preserve the values they cherish and to send an unequivocal message to terrorist organizations and their state sponsors everywhere, Israel must be permitted to crush Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

This is the lesson of previous rounds of fighting between the Israeli Defense Forces and terrorist strongholds. In Lebanon in 2006 and in Gaza in 2008 and again in 2012, Israel responded to rocket attacks on its cities with fierce counteroffensives. Fighting against a deeply dug-in enemy that both blended in with the local population and used it as a shield, Israel’s best efforts to avoid civilian casualties invariably proved limited. Incensed world opinion generated immense pressure on governments to convene the U.N. Security Council and empower human rights organizations to censure Israel and stop the carnage. These measures succeeded where the terrorists’ rockets failed. Israel was compelled to back down.

And the terrorists, though badly mauled, won. Admittedly, their bar for claiming victory was exceptionally low. While Israel must achieve a clear battlefield success to win, the terrorists merely had to survive. But they did more than survive. Under the protection of cease-fires and, in some cases, international peacekeepers, they vastly expanded their arsenals to include more lethal and longer-range missiles. While reestablishing their rule in the streets, they burrowed beneath them to create a warren of bombproof bunkers and assault tunnels. Such measures enabled Hamas, as well as Hezbollah, to mount devastating attacks at the time of their choosing, confident that the international community would once again prevent Israel from exacting too heavy a price.

So the cycle continued. Allowed to fight for several weeks, at most, Israel was eventually condemned and hamstrung by cease-fires. The terrorists, by contrast, could emerge from their hideouts and begin to replenish and enhance their stockpiles. That is precisely the pattern established in the second Lebanon War and repeated in Operations Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense in Gaza. Hezbollah and Hamas sustained losses but, rescued and immunized by international diplomacy, they remained in power and became more powerful still. Israel, on the other hand, was forced to defend its right to defend itself. Jihadist organizations no different from the Islamic State and al-Qaeda gained regional legitimacy, while Israel lost it in the world.

The cycle can end, now and decisively. As Operation Protective Edge enters its third week , responsible world leaders can give Israel the time and the leverage it needs to alter Hamas’s calculus. They can let the Israeli army ferret Hamas out of its holes and make it pay a prohibitive cost for its attacks. They can create an outcome in which the organization, even if it remains in Gaza, is defanged and deprived of its heavy arms. Of course, Hamas will resist demilitarization, and more civilians will suffer, but by ending the cycle once and for all thousands of innocent lives will be saved.

Life in Gaza is miserable now, but if Israel is permitted to prevail, circumstances can improve markedly. U.S.- and Canadian-trained security forces of the Palestinian Authority can take over key crossings and patrol Gaza’s porous border with Egypt. Rather than be funneled into Hamas’s war chest, international aid can be transferred directly to the civilian population to repair war damage and stimulate economic growth. Terrorist groups and their state patrons can be put on notice: The game has changed unalterably.

And by letting Israel regain its security with regard to Gaza — with all the pain it entails — the United States and its allies will be safeguarding their own. Though bitter, the fighting between Israel and Hamas raging in Gaza’s alleyways is merely part of the far vaster struggle between rational nations and the al-Qaeda and Islamic State-like forces seeking their destruction. Relative to that global conflict, Operation Protective Edge may seem small, but it is nevertheless pivotal. To ensure that it concludes with a categorical Israeli win is in the world’s fundamental interest. To guarantee peace, this war must be given a chance.

Israel understands what needs to be done to the Jihadis. they're not talking about hypothetical discussions. in essence, they very specific objectives vis-a-vis Hamas.

[svenkat]

Whole generations of Indian diplomats-the Gopalaswamys,the Rasgotras,the Menons,the Venkateshwarans,Singhs,Mani Dixits,Kauls pilloried the West on Israel and South Africa.This was supported by the Congress establishment of Nehru and IG.Perhaps,it was a reflex reaction to Britain and US needling India on issues like Kashmir,Punjab,caste etc.

By Rajiv Gandhis time,India started realising theres no morality in power politics.By PVNRs time,India started to distance itself from pompous rhetoric.But if someone is going to sponsor a resolution against blatant Isrraeli aggression in ME,its very much in Indias interest to support a resolution condemning Israel for the gross violation of "Universal Human rights" in UN/UNHRC.Both Israel and US have to be pilloried.India just has to support it and make the right noises against violation/"genocide" without overdoing it.This is what India has done.All credit to our Foreign office.The UNHRC and the west has to be mocked for the selective application of 'Universal' human rights.Israel breaks every canon of that universalism.This has to be highlighted for everyone to see because India is at the receiving end of vicious psy-ops by western news organisations.The Western narrative masquerading as "Universal" has to be broken.

[Dilbu]

Israel understands what needs to be done to the Jihadis. they're not talking about hypothetical discussions. in essence, they very specific objectives vis-a-vis Hamas.

What is the percentage of actual Hamas operatives among the dead? To justify the logic above there should be some result to show that Hamas terrorists are getting killed by dozens.

[JE Menon]

The question remains unanswered as far as I can tell, at least not with much clarity. Do you mean to say India has a unique role in breaking the "Western narrative masquerading as 'Universal'"?

Or are you just saying that when someone else pillories, makes the right noises, etc, against Israel and the US we should join in?

Please be clear about it. Because language such as "blatant Israeli aggression", "Israel breaks every canon of universalism (in human rights, I presume)", "jewish state has to be reminded of its cruelty, immorality", while not much if anything on the perspectives and actions of the other side - suggests a one-sided emotional investment in the outcome of this conflict, a moral posture on its fundamental questions (such as they are), etc... Not at all conducive to effective safeguarding of Indian interest, one might have thought.

(Unless of course, you're a spammer of sorts simply putting forth a directed point of view to see how people react, or to guide the discussion in a certain way - anything is possible...not saying you are one; but you get the drift, I'm sure).

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of our official stance which has been long-standing and is brutally pragmatic - i.e. tell the Palestinians we feel for them, and tell the Israelis business is business. This is what the Arabs are doing, too...take the Gulf Arabs for example.

And while you're at it, think of that poor little goat at the hands of inhuman zoophiliacs... if a moral posture is to be taken, it is certainly not the one that guy is striking behind that goat!!!

[Yagnasri]

Israel understands what needs to be done to the Jihadis. they're not talking about hypothetical discussions. in essence, they very specific objectives vis-a-vis Hamas.

What is the percentage of actual Hamas operatives among the dead? To justify the logic above there should be some result to show that Hamas terrorists are getting killed by dozens.

Hamas continue to have their aim of destruction of Israel. Israel is fighting such a terrorist force which bent on wiping it out from the face of earth. In such a war there are no civilians. IPKF lost lot of soldiers trying to save "civilians" in SL. Israel is not doing that mistake. Further if Hamas is hiding among civilian areas the Hamas is responsible. Why anyone want to have discussion with Hamas is beyond me. Of course Kerry is just being Kerry. It is the Obomber who has given this job to him which in turn means both are on the same page as for as Jihadi forces are concerned.

[Dilbu]

It is like burning a house to kill the rats. You will get the rats killed for sure but at what cost. It is as if they are not even trying to reduce civilian casualties, apart from the phone calls and warning announcements. This is against an unarmed population. Yes there are Hamas terrorists hiding among them and they should be killed but if you are TFTA super power then find a way without these mass killings. I am a friend of Israel and as an Indian friend I would advice them that what they are doing to innocent civilians is adharm and it will come back and bite you one day as per my beliefs. JMT

[Hari Seldon]

^^Yup. Use a scalpel wherever you can. Its not as if Israel hasn't. They've among the best scalpels worldwide and the among the most skilled hands too.

However, the cancer has spread beyond some localized tumor that canbe surgically removed. Its entered the bloodstream - or mainstream, whatever you will.

Now the broadsword is the only thing you have left. You do your best with a bad tool, what else can you do?

[svenkat]

JEMji,
I understand how difficult the job of a moderator is.Reading my posts,I cant believe that I made them.It is full of polemical rhetoric.They are indeed one sided.And my outburst seems to have been triggered by US machinations in UNHRC regarding eezham issue which caused problems for GOI.That was the primary intention of US, not to help the healing and reconciliation in SL.

But I reiterate,that by the standards of 'Universalism',Israel has no case for essentially the West has grabbed palestinian land.India has no bones in the 'holy' land dispute,but nothing wrong in making the US understand that their poster boy has no moral basis in this territorial aggression.Geo-politics is driven by hard compulsions and not morality and while we have no dispute with Israel,US gets a lesson in geo-politics if someone can give it.

India has the greatest interest in unravelling the 'universalist' narrative found in UNHRC,etc given that it is loaded in favour of white christian exclusivism as displayed in their selective application of human rights etc.

[JE Menon]

>>And my outburst seems to have been triggered by US machinations in UNHRC regarding eezham issue which caused problems for GOI.That was the primary intention of US, not to help the healing and reconciliation in SL.

Completely different issue. There must be a thread. Feel free to take it there.

>>But I reiterate,that by the standards of 'Universalism',Israel has no case for essentially the West has grabbed palestinian land.

Since when was Palestine only "Arab" and "Muslim"? And if that is indeed the case... what about the Jews who lived in that area for millennia before Islam came into the game as a faith.

>>India has no bones in the 'holy' land dispute,but nothing wrong in making the US understand that their poster boy has no moral basis in this territorial aggression.

I don't know if your perspective on this is the right one, certainly it has no resemblance to mine, but even it were right, why is it India's to make the US understand that Israel has no moral basis, etc? What do we gain from it, exactly?

>>Geo-politics is driven by hard compulsions and not morality and while we have no dispute with Israel,US gets a lesson in geo-politics if someone can give it.

Why do you think it is India which should be giving it? This is the part I don't understand...

[svenkat]

JEMji,
reply in OT thread.

[JwalaMukhi]

Give peace a chance, let Israel do what it has to, they can do without unsolicited advise. The best chance for peace all over is to give Israel a chance. If anyone has hopes that jihadis need a chance to give peace a chance, well there is nothing to be said.
Very sure, Sheep and goats will also get respite from the rapes, when Israel is given a chance.

[brihaspati]

I think India has no illusions about muslims.But muslims outside Bharat varsha are not our enemies.Theres nothing wrong in supporting palestinians against zionist aggressors.

Israel is fundamentally an imperial enterprise by mleccha christists to get rid of jews at mohammedan expense.Israel strikes at the fundamentals of universalism,humanism,human rights,'the judeo-christian' nonsense the west is supposed to embody.Israel has no moral basis.It was created at someones expense.Its genocidal land conquest.Israel need to be accused,pilloried and shamed for its naked aggression.The jewish state has to be reminded of its cruelty,immorality,aggression and this cruelty is a stark reminder of the fundamental hollowness of jewish religious claims.

Why is the language of the Palestinians Arabic and not Aramaic? Aramaic was the original language (after evolving from previous Canaanite languages) in that whole region, while Arabic was spoken only by Bedouins much farther south.

If you cared for the real trajectory of events, genocide of Jews started at the hands of the first invading Arab Muslim armies after retreat of Byzantines. The genocide is well documented, and the fact of dispossession, expulsion, forced conversion, massacres, and appropriation of the fertile portions as estates for jihadis - is also well documented. This process continued throughout since then, the real reason that Jews were almost completely thinned out from the Levant in the next 1000 years. Its Islam, Arabic, Arab which is the invader, aggressor, genocider.

Islams codified, textualized intense hatred and attitudes of genocide towards the Jews as a racial and religious entity, is unparalleled before the modern times until Nazis. In fact most of the practices that later European Christians adopted towards Jews originated in Islamic practices - including the infamous public sporting of star-of-David or yellow bands. It was started in Islamic North Africa in the 700's and spread later through Moorish Spain, and copied in England. Islamic chronicles themselves write in gleeful details on how Muhammad cleared the areas around his initial hosts, of Jews, to get their lands, orchards, their women and property.

Let me rephrase what is the correct version of your long rant against Israel :

"Palestinian jihad is fundamentally an imperial enterprise by mleccha Islamists to get rid of jews at non-Muslim expense. Palestinian jihad strikes at the fundamentals of universalism,humanism,human rights,'the islamist' nonsense the "Arab" is supposed to embody.Palestinian jihad has no moral basis.It was created at someones expense.Its genocidal land conquest. Palestinian jihad need to be accused,pilloried and shamed for its naked aggression.The jihadi state has to be reminded of its cruelty,immorality,aggression and this cruelty is a stark reminder of the fundamental hollowness of Islamic religious claims."

US as the defender of the fake judeo-christian (identity created after world war 2) heritage needs to be put in the dock as the supporter of genocidal,territorial imperialist aggression.The US and Western Europe need to be put in the defensive in the mockery called UNHRC.The UNHRC follows Western agenda against India using human rights selectively against Indian political interests.Look at western record of instigating problems against SL in UNHRC.I think the eezham question is a challenge to any reasonable vision of Pax-Indica but the West has furthered its agenda in eezham for the last 100 years and they use UNHRC as a tool to further their interests in eezham.

I guess you need to clear your mind on "judeo-christian" identity. Are you saying that is itself a "fake identity"? why is it fake? Or do you mean Israel or the Judaic (as religious/cultural identity)? even then why is the latter "fake"? why is more fake than the Islamic? which pre-Islamic Arab elements does Islam contain to make it real and not an artificial construct based on twisted hallucinations of undigested Judaic and Christian ideas completely alien to Arab cultures?

Again its the Arab, Arabic, and Islam that needs to be put in the dock as supporter of genocidal, territorial imperialist aggression. Yes US/West needs to be in the dock too, but for supporting Arab/Islamic imperialist aggression in between the wars and on non-Muslims in colonies like India. Is your real khujlee against western intervention through UNHRC against SL gov, in favour of Tamil separatists? The answer to this question is tied to the issue you reveal in the next paragraph.

I dont think Indian diplomats are fools.They look at india from the perspective of the Hindu civilisation with its incredible diversity.The West has created artificial narratives.These need to be challenged,ridiculed and mocked at.

Where is this strange jugglery of "Hindu civilizational perspective" coming from? what is that perspective being shown by diplomats? total and utter confusion and corruption of the message of ahimsa and tolerance of diversity to stretch to tolerance of sadism, intolerance, genocide that is Islamism? This kind of tolerance was pushed in "Hindu civilization" in the name of "incredible diversity"?

Now the core problem in your argument : you want to teach a lesson to US/West as a tit-for-tat for its selective use of universalism/humanitarian jargon to problematize Indian and SL gov interests. But in doing so you are actually helping the claimed western agenda of delegitimizing the rights of nation-states to bull-doze violent, separatist, and often sadistic movements like LTTE, or Kashmiri Jihad.

If Indian diplomats are doing this on some fake "Hindu civilizational incredible diversity" excuse, then they are actually working in US/West interest, and departing from the Hindu principles on polity/political position on such issues. You support principles, not sides - in this case India supported the position that violently, sadistic, genocidal movements like Palestinian jihadi separatism can be supported merely to spite another party, without thinking of geo-strategic and ideological impact of such support.

[UlanBatori]

There IS one slight parallel between the Gaza situation and the End Game in Pakistan.

After 30,000 60,000, 100,000 Indians are killed by Paki terrorists, one day the GOI will feel spine enough, meaning the Indian public will feel spine enough, to order a full-scale pest-e-sha'eed across the LOC, right up to the Durand Line and the Iran border. If all goes well, the PA will fold and the golas will turn out to be empty, but it will be a bloody war. The terrorists will use the population as human shield, and there will be no way to 'take out' all those terrorist campsmadarssas without hitting the neighborhood. First, to get the PA out, it will be be necessary to destroy much of the infrastructure, isolate the PA and then finish them off - the locals I suspect will help a lot in that once they see that the IA is serious and won't just declare a ceasefire and hand them back to the PA.

What we are seeing in Gaza is a small part of what will have to happen, to achieve Peace On Earth. Let's not second-guess the Israelis a whole lot, hain? I don't see any alternative in either place. The Israeli policy of 2 eyes, a hand and a foot for 1 eye, is not working. So now they have to go for full-scale wipeout of the Pakis there.

Likewise, just some minor jhapad, shelling a few border posts or even airfields, is not going to wipe out Paki terroroaches. Only a full-scale war, followed by 30 years of total embargo on weapons in that whole pest-land, will suffice.

[RoyG]

There IS one slight parallel between the Gaza situation and the End Game in Pakistan.

After 30,000 60,000, 100,000 Indians are killed by Paki terrorists, one day the GOI will feel spine enough, meaning the Indian public will feel spine enough, to order a full-scale pest-e-sha'eed across the LOC, right up to the Durand Line and the Iran border. If all goes well, the PA will fold and the golas will turn out to be empty, but it will be a bloody war. The terrorists will use the population as human shield, and there will be no way to 'take out' all those terrorist campsmadarssas without hitting the neighborhood. First, to get the PA out, it will be be necessary to destroy much of the infrastructure, isolate the PA and then finish them off - the locals I suspect will help a lot in that once they see that the IA is serious and won't just declare a ceasefire and hand them back to the PA.

What we are seeing in Gaza is a small part of what will have to happen, to achieve Peace On Earth. Let's not second-guess the Israelis a whole lot, hain? I don't see any alternative in either place. The Israeli policy of 2 eyes, a hand and a foot for 1 eye, is not working. So now they have to go for full-scale wipeout of the Pakis there.

Likewise, just some minor jhapad, shelling a few border posts or even airfields, is not going to wipe out Paki terroroaches. Only a full-scale war, followed by 30 years of total embargo on weapons in that whole pest-land, will suffice.

This is only a winning strategy against lesser developed states with limited military capabilities. The way you beat Pakistan is to secure your house and grow while fomenting dissent within their country. No other means will work.

[svenkat]

Bji,
reply in oT thread.

[Yayavar]

The problem is, 'can the gazans branch out or are they completely hemmed in?'. It is not really a palestinian issue - the west-bank ruled by Fatah is not part of this conflict afaik. The Gazans are ruled by the more aggressive Hamas and are squeezed in to a small place with no where to go - Egypt and Israel blockade them and they build tunnels for economic survival. I wonder what happens if West-bank erupts as well.

[devesh]

Svenkat, we are not discussing OT to go post in that thread. The discussion revolves around this thread's subject so I will respond to your OT meandering right here. Please have the courage to back up your rants. This posting in OT is deliberately deceptive. I see that almost all your replies are in OT when they don't need to be.

[K Mehta]

What should Israel do ? They have 2 options : Hunt for Hamas rocket launchers, tunnels and other military infrastructure. Destroy them and buy 2 years of relative peace. or (2) Pull out at a critical phase without having achieved the original objective of destroying the tunnels and stopping kidnapping/rocket attacks.

If Israel wants to hold land as a barter for stopping rocket attacks, then so be it. In my opinion, as costly as urban wars are, Israel must not agree for a cease fire. Israel must go on and destroy every tunnel, armament and other military infrastructure of Hamas. Hamas and other jihadi yahoos are solely responsible for what is happening in Gaza today. Why is it that West Bank has been quite and relatively peaceful in the last 5 yrs and Gaza continues to be a flashpoint ( at the cost of ordinary Gazans) ?

Option 1a) hold land as a barter for stopping rocket attacks for a far longer time period or put future of gaza at risk.
The bolded part is exactly what I am saying and it follows RajeshAji's land for terror doctrine. It also works on the principle of monopoly of violence by state. If Hamas doesnt have a monopoly on violence in Gaza, then Israel can punish them and should punish them. This non state actors/ groups outside our control rubbish should be dealt with in this fashion.
I dont see anything wrong in what they are doing, I just dont drink the "only to remove the tunnels" koolaid.

If Israel is a nation with reasonable amount of strategic thought and memory, it wont withdraw after mere dismantling the tunnel network.

RajeshAji this is your doctrine undergoing a test in the real world. Please watch this entire operation and how it pans out.

[UlanBatori]

This is only a winning strategy against lesser developed states with limited military capabilities. The way you beat Pakistan is to secure your house and grow while fomenting dissent within their country. No other means will work.

If the Israelis had adopted that winning strategy starting in 1948, they would be extinct long since and the Arabs would be (pet-goat)-ing each other on the ruins of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa etc.

A good 3 weeks' saturation bombardment will convert Pakistan into a "less developed state with limited military capabilities" quite definitely.