Eastern Europe/Ukraine

[Austin]

Europe's Russian Connections

[Austin]

U.S. official: Spy plane flees Russian jet, radar; ends up over Sweden

U.S. military official tells CNN the incident occurred on July 18
RC-135 Rivet Joint was on electronic eavesdropping mission in international airspace
Russians began tracking with ground radar, and sent at least one fighter to intercept
U.S. plane evaded encounter by flying into Swedish airspace without permission

[RSoami]

US is overcrowded with `realpolitik` genius strategic experts. They need an enemy. Iraq`s Saddam in the 2nd gulf war was purely a creation of enemy and then war.
The experts have been trained to treat Russia as an enemy for decades. Other countries and situations are just not in the same league as Russia. Even if Russia is no threat today.
Ukraine is a classic case where US is working hard and has succeeded in creating a crisis. Georgia was another one. This time there will not even be a debate. Lives of people in this part of the world are irrelevant to US.

[Johann]

Sometimes it seems human communication is impossible.

My aside was not about the politics of the situation.

It was about the added horror of people I know having to deal with identity theft on top of everything else, and having to fight the phone company and the banks in the middle of grieving because someone out there is trying to use their dead relatives credit cards and phones. Its just really distressing for the families.

If you want to make that political, thats up to you, but its not to your credit. In fact it was probably a mistake on my part to bother sharing something personal in a space where only politics counts.

[svenkat]

russia-bashing-hatred-hysteria-and-humbug

The following report about Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 sums up the attitude of the great majority of the west’s media and political administrations to the disaster in Ukraine. It is from a British newspaper that I used to respect, the Independent, which announced that “The 192 bodies found after the Flight MH17 plane crash have been bundled into black body bags and unceremoniously loaded into large refrigerated train cars, bound, it is understood, for the rebel heartland.” The paper didn’t have a reporter anywhere near the place, and shifted its shaky ground a bit when stating that “the bodies were reportedly moved by Ukraine’s emergency services who were working for the rebels under duress on Sunday.” It had to inject that “under duress” bit, but couldn’t avoid admitting that experts from official Ukrainian emergency services were involved.

If the bodies had been dealt with in the way the Independent claimed then of course there would be reason for disgust and condemnation. But it didn’t happen that way. The bodies were not “bundled” into body bags, nor were they “unceremoniously” loaded into the refrigerated wagons. But lots of media outlets followed the same propaganda line. The UK Daily Mail, which is admittedly a joke of a newspaper, screamed that “pro-Russian rebels left the victims’ bodies to decay for several days in body bags dumped around the crash site before eventually allowing them to be taken by train to Kharkiv airport.” Absolute rubbish.

According to Euronews, to which (with Al Jazeera, AFP, AP, Reuters and the BBC) I increasingly have recourse in order to obtain unbiased accounts of world affairs, it wasn’t like that at all. It reported that “the Ukrainian government announced that it had reached an agreement on the removal of bodies with representatives of the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, the pro-Russian rebels who control the territory around the crash site” and that “International observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) inspected the train before it departed. The train was made up of refrigerated wagons to preserve the remains of the victims.” The BBC recorded that “the remains . . . have been loaded on to refrigerated rail wagons,” and that “Dutch experts examined some of the 196 bodies kept in refrigerator wagons in Torez, some 15 km away from the crash site. ‘I think the storage of the bodies is of good quality,’ team leader Peter van Leit said after the inspection.” There was no drama about these reports — because there was no drama.

But it’s essential for the US-dominated west to manufacture anti-Russian fantasies, and the Independent (and other hate-Putin fraternities) recounted that there were “reports from the crash site of the rebels blocking investigations and even allowing the bodies to be looted.” There were no verified first-hand reports of any such thing, of course, but then there was a bit of embarrassment when a western reporter at the crash site, a particularly nauseating little fragment of filth called Colin Brazier, of Rupert Murdoch’s Sky News, was shown on camera removing personal items from the luggage of a dead passenger. (Why does Murdoch come in to almost everything that is slimy and disgusting?)donate now

It wasn’t exactly looting, of course, because no doubt Mr Brazier was well-equipped with personal items, but it must have been a little sad and upsetting for the relatives of victims to see on Murdoch television the set of keys and the toothbrush that he displayed. Make no mistake : the western media was at its most energetic — and hypocritical — in presenting the hideousness of the shooting-down of Flight MH17.

There is hypocrisy in the fact that western media castigated people — without evidence — for “looting” baggage while a strolling player of international television enjoyed a ghoulishly morbid dabble in suitcase contents. It must be pointed out that if local hooligans were acting as claimed by western media — forbidding entry of foreigners to the crash site — then how did the toothbrush-plucking Mr Brazier manage to get there for Sky News in order to titillate the world with displays of a dead person’s keys? Make no mistake : there are plenty like Brazier. And his only mistake was to misjudge audience reaction. An equally abominable Australian journalist, Phil Williams, was also pictured poking around in the belongings of the dead. There’s no limit to the depths to which these people will plunge. But it’s all in what they think is a good cause — the pillorying of Putin, the man who is trying to do his best for the citizens of his country which has lots of oil and gas and other goodies and thus presents an economic threat to Washington.

The ghoulish manufactured reportage about the aircraft’s flight recorders was another example of western media hysteria. The headlines fairly shrieked propaganda nonsense such as “Flight’s Black Box ‘Found and En Route’ to Moscow for Investigation.” But of course the two recorders were not on the way to Russia. They were found and handed over to officials of Malaysia Airlines, as was right and proper. No western reporter checked out the original story in spite of its being denied by the Russian government. Why should they? — They had got the headlines, and people believed their lies. The rebels handed over the recorders to Malaysia Airlines simply because they didn’t trust the Ukrainians not to interfere with them. But this wasn’t the sort of news that is acceptable to Russia-bashers.

The tsunami of malevolent anti-Russian propaganda surged on and still surges, thanks to such as the US Secretary of State John Kerry who is rarely at a loss for an intriguing declaration. (Remember his pronouncement of 2010 that “Syria will play a very important role in achieving a comprehensive peace in the region and in putting an end to the five decades of conflict that have plagued everybody in this region.”) He did his bit to whip up hatred by announcing that there was “extraordinary circumstantial evidence” showing that the missile that destroyed MH17 was “a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists.” But five days later, as reported by Associated Press, “intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the US had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.”

Kerry then jumped on the body bandwagon and declared on NBC that “What’s happening is really grotesque. There are reports of drunken separatist soldiers unceremoniously piling bodies into trucks, removing both bodies, as well as evidence, from the site.”

What proof had he for saying that anyone was “unceremoniously piling bodies into trucks”? Or that the missile system had been transferred from Russia? The word “circumstantial” in relation to evidence means “indirect, inferred or conditional.” It is used by international political conmen like Kerry to make us believe they have proof about something they want us to believe. And the western media go out of their way to help them.

There was even more hysteria whipped up by the media which shrieked that it had taken far too long to collect the bodies — four days — and that this was absolutely scandalous. Does anyone remember the bombing of Pan American Airways flight 103 in 1988? The plane exploded and fell out of the sky onto Lockerbie in southern Scotland, killing 259 people. As the Guardian newspaper later reported “Search teams would comb through much of the 2,190 square kilometres of the county with the help of helicopters, airplanes and even spy satellites. But they would be unable to locate the bodies of seven of the passengers, as well as about 10 per cent of the plane. And in some cases they may have arrived too late: 10 years after the catastrophe, the chief pathologist reported that two of the passengers had suffered serious but not fatal wounds. Possibly they froze to death on the ground before the search teams found them in a forest four days later.” Four days later. There was no media frenzy about that four day gap. Why was there media mania about the four days taken to find the MH17 bodies? — Because there is a well-orchestrated campaign of vindictive anti-Russian propaganda.

The West thinks they’ve got Putin at last. The Sochi Winter Olympics were a great success, to the great vexation of governments in Washington, London, Warsaw and some other capitals, and the plebiscite in Crimea in which its citizens voted without a single instance of bloodshed to rejoin Russia (yes — rejoin; not a word you’ll have seen much in western papers), was similarly infuriating. But now there’s a chance to imply that Putin is responsible for everything that’s wrong in Ukraine, and especially the destruction of MH17, there is mega-lip-smacking in the corridors of conspiracy.

As noted above, many western newspapers and other media squealed and screeched about how terrible it was that the MH17 bodies were “ bundled into black body bags and unceremoniously loaded into large refrigerated train cars” — but at the site of the Lockerbie disaster “the first corpses were brought to the town hall, but people [ordinary villagers, just as in Ukraine] then started bringing them to the hockey stadium because it was the only place large and cool enough to store so many bodies.” There was no “ceremony” in Lockerbie. How could there be in any such circumstances? But the Putin-bashers seize on anything and everything that they think could whip up hatred of Russia. The “pro-Russia separatists” are guilty of everything that’s nasty.

Then Kerry leapt on the next bandwagon and pronounced that “it is clear that Russia supports the separatists, supplies the separatists, encourages the separatists, trains the separatists.”

Many of us remember the months before the US went to war on Iraq in 2003 when another US Secretary of State made similar pronouncements. We should remember that the then incumbent of that office declared “we have first hand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails.” He announced a lot more baloney about “rocket launchers and warheads containing biological warfare agents” —and so on — and there was not a scrap of proof or truth in any of it. It was all lies.

Why should we believe John Kerry’s rabble-rousing proclamations about anything to do with the stricken MH17? Where is his proof?


So there must be a totally independent international inquiry into this ghastly disaster. It should be an investigation on the same lines and with the same terms of reference as the independent inquiry that took place following the shooting-down of Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988. Or does my memory play tricks? Surely there must have been a full independent inquiry into that atrocity, as demanded, now, about MH17, by President Obama who has demanded a “a rapid and credible investigation” ? Or perhaps there wasn’t.

Do you remember that international crime? It involved “a civilian jet airliner shot down by US Navy surface to air missiles on 3 July 1988 as it flew over the Strait of Hormuz at the end of the Iran–Iraq War. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203 operated by Iran Air, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, United Arab Emirates. While flying in Iranian airspace over Iran’s territorial waters in the Persian Gulf on its usual flight path, it was destroyed by the guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes. All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, perished.”

There was no attempt to find bodies after Iran Air 655 smashed into the waters of the Persian Gulf. There were no toothbrushes to be brandished by the squalid morbid media — and nor was there an independent inquiry. The captain of the ship that killed 290 innocent people was given a high military decoration by the United States of America “for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service” during his period in command.

It’s OK for the US to shoot down an Iranian airliner and kill 290 people — there’s never been an apology to the Iranian people for that war crime — but when there’s an opportunity to claim, to shriek, to propagandise at cyclone-level, that a disaster has occurred in which there just might be the tiniest chance to blame Russia, then there is clamour for investigation.

Of course there must be an investigation. And let it take into account exactly where Washington stood in regard to the first rebellion in Ukraine, against the elected government, and precisely what it did to foment it. Let the whole gutter-gobbing sleazy tale be told. Let the culprits who killed the 298 innocent people on board MH17 be brought to justice. But without anti-Russian hysteria. Or western humbug. The hatred, of course, will remain.

[Philip]

Absolutely! I pointed this hypocrisy too.What did the western world do? If one remembers right they were:
"Tough luck","sh*t happens", "Khomeini is a basta*rd","unfortunate","the aircraft was on a hostile attack","great,the missiles work!",etc.,etc.long as it is an "enemy" state,use any damned lie to hide the truth through a massive propaganda exercise.O'Bomber.the Moron of Cam,etc.,must be awarded the Dr.Goebells Knight's Cross,mit der oak leaves,swords and diamonds for their masterful falsehoods about the MH17 conspiracy.

Many years later in order to avoid just this sort of tragedy,TWA 800 was shot (missile without a warhead) down off the east coast of the US during a secret mil. exercise meant to simulate shooting down enemy aircraft in a littoral environment distinguishing civil from mil. aircraft.It was as usual covered up and a fuel tank explosion was blamed.

Here is one piece on some similarities between MH17 and TWA 800:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/07/ ... m=facebook

August 2, 2014
MH 17 versus TWA 800
By Hugh McInnish

On the 17th of July, Malaysia Airlines Flight MH-17 crashed in Ukraine, near the Russian border, killing all 298 aboard. The cause of the crash was announced within hours by several governments: it had been shot down by a surface-to-air missile.

Usually it takes months to make such a determination. The pieces of aircraft wreckage are typically removed to a large hanger and used to reconstruct the plane so far as it is possible. Then an array of forensic experts are brought in to probe every minutiae imaginable. Months later, a report is published that gives the “most probable cause” of the crash.

How, then, could any government leader, or anyone else, for that matter, know the cause so quickly? How could it be that, almost in an instant, the crash was known not to be due to, say, a bomb on board, or the explosion of a fuel tank? How was it that other causes were summarily ruled out?

The answer seems to be because witnesses saw the airplane, saw the ascent of the missile, saw the missile intercept the plane, saw the explosion of the missile’s warhead, and then saw the tragic downward plunge of the aircraft. And all this was consistent with radar data.

Now let us flash back to July 17, 1996. That evening, at 8:19, TWA Flight 800, a Boeing 747, was cleared for takeoff at New York’s JFK Airport. The pilot wheeled the jumbo aircraft into position on Runway 13R, opened his four throttles, accelerated smoothly down the runway, lifted off, and took up a course for Paris. Twelve minutes later, TWA 800 exploded, the parts raining down in the Atlantic ten miles south of Long Island.

The essences of the MH 17 and TWA 800 accidents are identical: a large passenger aircraft is cruising along high above. Observers on the ground watching it see an object rise from the ground and intercept it. An explosive fireball follows. Radar observations are consistent with the reports of the ground observers.

But here the parallel ends. The investigation of TWA 800 required four years, after which it was announced that the “most probable cause” of the disaster was the explosion, triggered by an electrical spark, in the fuel-air vapor in one of the aircraft’s fuel tanks. Thus ended the most costly air-disaster investigation in U.S. history.

This explanation seemed plausible, and, at least at first, there were good reasons to believe it based on historical analogies – some of them quite surprising.

As an example, take flour – the ordinary kind you have in your pantry. If flour dust should accumulate in an enclosed volume – say, an empty silo – and if it becomes mixed with the right quantity of air with a component of 20 percent oxygen, and further, if a spark from some source should occur within this mixture, an explosion can occur.

And just such explosions have occurred, with loss of life and property. Thus, flour, the main component of "the staff of life," can become the critical ingredient of an implement of death. Nor is flour the only bizarre "explosive" we have. In a class with flour, as examples, are sawdust, sugar, and powdered milk.

Nor have weapons scientists of the world overlooked how this phenomenon can be used in their trade. Consider our BLU-96: a 2,000-pound bomb dropped by an aircraft. It contains the fuel for the main explosion plus two small conventional explosives. The first bursts the container of the fuel for thermobaric reaction, and the second ignites the bomb itself – that is, the fuel-air mixture. To see a graphic demonstration of the destructive power of this weapon, look here.

Now, Boeing, the designer of the 747 that was Flight TWA 800, is highly staffed with bright scientists who undoubtedly know well these phenomena, and who took them into consideration in the design of their aircraft. It is unthinkable that they would design an airplane vulnerable to destruction as described by government investigators. This diminishes the plausibility of the government's story.

And there is another negating factor that looms large: of all the thousands of aircraft that have ever flown, there has never been an instance of an accident resulting from a fuel tank explosion without an external cause. Michael Barr, Director of Aviation Safety at the University of Southern California, disbelieves the government's story. He says, "These planes just don't blow up. There's too many firewalls, too many checks and balances."

Taken together, these two points cast the government's story into serious doubt. It seems unlikely that the crash was due to any endogenous cause. Where, then, does that leave us?

American Thinker writer Jack Cashill proposes an exogenous cause, and I believe he has the answer. He has written extensively about TWA 800. Read him here, here, and here.

In these articles, Cashill persuasively makes the following salient points:

-There were 270 eyewitnesses who said they saw what looked like a missile strike the aircraft.

-The testimony of these witnesses was corroborated by radar data.

-The investigators ignored all these witnesses.

-The government fabricated witnesses' statements, simply recording interviews that never took place.

-The expert personnel from the NTSB, those experienced in aircraft accident investigations, were overwhelmed by interference from the FBI and the CIA, whose personnel lacked pertinent experience.

-Chemical tests showed evidence of explosive residue on parts of the aircraft wreckage.

In sum, the evidence is strong that TWA 800 was brought down by a missile.

How could it be that two accidents so similar in nature could be reacted to so utterly differently? The answer lies in politics. For MH 17, there are powerful political leaders who want the plane to have been shot down, since it will help their side in the never-ending Mid East wars. The controversy is not whether it was shot down, but rather by whom it was shot down.

But in the case of TWA 800, the politics are drastically different. If the plane were downed by terrorists, or if it were brought down by a tragic error of our own forces, this, in either case, would be a monumental embarrassment to our government.

This our leaders couldn’t possibly allow to be the conclusion. Hence the bizarre and shameful “investigation” that ensued.

As I see it, the facts before us justify the conclusion that the preponderance of evidence points to a missile having caused the crash of TWA 800. I would add that if a congressional investigation were made, with its authority to put witnesses under oath, and with its power of subpoena, proof beyond reasonable doubt – the level of proof required to hang a man – could easily be reached.

Jack Cashill calls for such an investigation. I join him in that plea.

[ldev]

Sometimes it seems human communication is impossible.

My aside was not about the politics of the situation.

It was about the added horror of people I know having to deal with identity theft on top of everything else, and having to fight the phone company and the banks in the middle of grieving because someone out there is trying to use their dead relatives credit cards and phones. Its just really distressing for the families.

If you want to make that political, thats up to you, but its not to your credit. In fact it was probably a mistake on my part to bother sharing something personal in a space where only politics counts.

Johann,

I fully sympathize with your friends who lost their relatives in this crash. I think that in any crash like this, there is always the possibility of people without any morals taking advantage of the situation and stealing personal belongings of the victims. It can happen anywhere including the most developed countries if the site is not cordoned off completely, immediately. In this situation it was in the middle of a war zone with no real administrative authority to take charge of the crash area. I think the question is whether it was a systematic effort or sporadic....and we may never know the answer to that i.e. if 100 of the victim's credit cards were used after the crash, it would point to a systematic effort to loot and that then is truly reprehensible, and should not only be condemned but pursued, but if 5-10 cases have been reported, it is sporadic looting which can certainly be condemned but is par for the course in terms of human nature, anywhere in the world. All of this will certainly not lessen the pain for those who have lost their relatives and have to deal with sorting out these issues with the credit card and phone companies.

[Shreeman]

The looting of things like credit cards and mobile phones from the crash site, the obstruction over access to the bodies has just made things extra horrific for the families. What a disgusting bunch of vultures.

.

Johann,

You should also go back and read what you wrote. It is easy to claim victimhood. And this is not political. Those vultures are dying by dozens every day, and have ballistic missiles aimed at them. Need we apportion the blame now?

This is an assymetric fight, but after the Libyas and Syrias, it is not fooling anyone. The precedents of the last decade (read kosovo) are terrible. Sooner or later fate brings us all in close contact with the reality.

You can not blame the forum for pointing out the propaganda. We share the grief, but to support the propaganda is to lay the groundwork for a gaza style assault as you have yourself admitted. Why arw the dutch lives so much more precious than countless civilians trapped and dying in this meaningless game.

Grief is not a license for anything except crying. I have no sympathies for either side in this or any other armed conflict. Truth is the first casualty of any war. And you are far too intelligent to let your grief blame people who may have had npthing to do to cause it.

[UlanBatori]

Johann explains the horror of dealing with the phone and credit card companies.

IMO, those companies (presumably "western") have the same, or better, access to such things as newspapers, and even the list of people killed (there is no 'missing' in this case).

If they then persist in charging accounts of such people, THAT must be presumed to be deliberate fraud, and complaints against them should be publicized. They must IMMEDIATELY withdraw any such charge and apologize. Then they can take up the matter with their flunkies who administer networks through which the fraud came.

If you were running a phone company, and experience fraud complaints every day, wouldn't you ask your people to do basic checks of this sort? A major plane crash - OK, get the passenger list and watch for any charges on phones or credit cards or ATM cards associated with the listed passengers, and ask your security department to at least inquire about those charges? Saves you a lot of money, because the company IS stuck with any such charges - death cancels all responsibilities and debts after all.

The same issue came up after the disappearance of MH-370. Phone calls reported from the passengers. The phone companies could have helped a lot by tracing such calls immediately upon knowing of the crash and getting the passenger list.

That still leaves cards and phones given to children/dependents or joint accounts where charges are someone else's responsibility. I assume that your friends encountered some of those, but still, a good and decent company would have the passenger list handy and deal with this in a quick and decent manner.

If instead they have bloody bureaucrat teenagers sitting at their "customer service" acting stupid, and inaccessible managers, then those companies' behavior should be widely publicized, and the CEOs put on a black list in at least social media.

It's not that the ppl who stole the credit cards and phones are innocent or non-ghouls, by any means. They are ghouls, but my point is that this sort of behavior is wordwide and well-known and "expected" at such crash sites. There was clearly a superbly organized market for transmitting credit card/ATM info and cellphone accounts to the major European markets where such fraud is generally widespread.

I recently talked to the parents of a young person who bought something at a Spanish market. Using an ATM card. Within minutes her account had been cleaned out. The network apparently goes from Spain to Germany and into the US banks. Clearly their branch subsidiaries in Ukraine are functioning very well, despite any war etc. So why are the European and US authorities unable to stop these "vultures"?

Posting that as some sort of special behavior limited to those who do not see eye to eye with the US State Department's Neo-Nazi mercenaries, is, at least on this forum, like standing up with a "spit here" sign painted on one's shirt.

A couple of days after the crash of MH-17, an Algerian airliner with 119 people on board, went down in a rainstorm in Mali (I think). Any comparisons to the "treatment of bodies" etc there? Many refrigerated trains on-site? Since the area is France-controlled, I assume that there were no thefts, no misuse of credit cards or cellphones? Have you seen many articles on CNN about these issues? Surely there is no "lack of access" for western experts to this crash site? My guess is that REAL 400% genuine vultures had a grand feast there.

The reporting on the event has been pretty decent, mostly quoting officials at the site or at their HQ. Sounds so clean and clinical. Maybe that is because the passengers themselves were not "westerners" meriting hordes of CNN and Oiropean vultures"in-bedded journalists" descending there to throw filth at the people working to salvage what they can.

These are the dangers in swallowing propaganda.

**************************************************
All sounds so well-organized, but anyone who has any experience of dealing with actual people can imagine what it was really like.

BTW, here is the latest on the Mali crash site.

Forensics specialists from France, Mali, Spain and Algeria have spent a week scouring the site in the Gossi region, around 150 kilometers from the city of Gao in northeastern Mali.

"I have finished my investigations relating to accident investigation and identifying the victims," said Colonel Patrick Touron, deputy head of the French gendarmerie's Criminal Research Institute.

Forensic experts were forced to use DNA samples to identify the dead, mostly because of the state the bodies were found in. The extreme heat at the crash site further complicated their work.

"We scraped the sand and gathered everything so there is nothing belonging to a victim that could have been left behind," Touron told AFP.

"We have carried out a zoning of the whole area with the help of military forces on the site to ensure that no personal objects belonging to a victim could have been left behind."

During a brief ceremony, Touron officially turned over the crash site to the Malian military.

Up to 1,200 samples from human remains have been collected, according to investigators.

A first batch of 146 samples was sent on Friday from Bamako to Paris, where they will be analysed by Touron's colleagues.

Watches, memory cards, jewellery and other personal effects of the victims have been transferred to a French military base in Gao, where French and Malian (???) investigators are sifting through each item in an attempt to determine the owner.

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebano ... z39KdoU600
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)

Wonder what the reality is. The site was in a remote area, but not desert (actually looks like they have trees and grass in plenty) I assume that not many ppl could run over there. The operation was over yesterday (Aug 2 or 3) after the crash occurred many days ago.

Officials who had already reached Mali’s remote, barren Gossi area described a scene of devastation littered with twisted and burnt fragments of the plane, which disappeared from radar early Thursday, following reports of storms in the area.

Hollande said flags would fly at half-mast from government buildings for three days from Monday to mourn the victims.

“A memorial will be put up so that no one forgets that 118 people perished in this area,” he told reporters.

But the identification of bodies could be an arduous task given the violent impact of the crash.

“It is difficult to retrieve anything, even victims’ bodies, because we have only seen body parts on the ground,” said General Gilbert Diendiere, chief of the military staff of Burkina Faso’s presidency.

A member of a delegation sent to the crash site by President Blaise Compaore, Diendiere added that “debris was scattered over an area of 500 meters, which is due to the fact that the plane hit the ground and then probably rebounded.”

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebano ... z39KiGdxWo
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)
]Another report here[/url]

[Vayutuvan]

I expanded on my single line rhetorical question now that I have access to a proper keyboard - if anybody cares.

[ldev]

Michael Bociurkiw, a monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), who has spent days at the crash site. He is a Ukranian-Canadian and is being interviewed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Watch the clip specially from about 6.05 onwards. He says that there is very strong evidence of machine gun bullet holes in certain parts of the fuselage, but no signs of any missile. (Could he be mistaken between machine gun holes and holes caused by a cannon firing?)
http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/TV%20Show ... 478615393/

Added later:
Never mind. Somebody posted that specific section on youtube.

[ramana]

If the cannon shell fuzes didn't work the holes would look like MG made.

[ldev]

That makes sense.

Also, what's happening to the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder, both handed over to the UK. The FDR results of the Air Algerie plane that crashed 1 week later are already out.

[UlanBatori]

Also, armor-piercing shells would simply come in one side and go out the other of an aircraft wall. The nosetip may be reinforced to survive bird hits, but the rest is only strengthened to take the load of suitcases and Pakis stomping up and down. Aircraft are not built like tanks.

Read "Where Eagles Dare" by Alistair MacLean. The armor-piercing shells from the Panzer went right through the Alpine Bus, repelled by the force field of La Parfum of British Agint 40-30-43 Size D++ Heidi. And aircraft shell is aluminum sheet or composite, not steel armor-plate.

[Philip]

Is crunch time approaching for the Ukraineian east? The relentles all-out war against the Donetsk separatists is reaching a critical point as the UKR forces try to encircle the heart of the resistance,Donetsk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... sia-rebels
Ukrainian army closes in on Donetsk as rebel fighters call on Russia for help
Advances by Ukrainian army lead to intense fighting as separatists renew calls for Moscow to send troops

Fighting has raged on the western outskirts of Donetsk as the advancing Ukrainian army tried to seize control of the rebel stronghold.
The separatists, who are in danger of being encircled, have renewed their calls for Russia to send troops to their aid.

To support their operations, the pro-Russia fighters have been confiscating vehicles and food from residents and businesses in Donetsk. The centre of the major industrial city is all but deserted, with few people or cars on the streets and most stores and restaurants closed.

A spokesman for the Ukrainian military operation, Alexei Dmitrashkovsky, told Associated Press that government soldiers were fighting on Sunday to hold positions they had taken on the edge of Donetsk, but were meeting resistance.

In the part of the city closest to the fighting, an artillery shell hit a school overnight, but no one was reported hurt.

"The shell went through the roof and exploded inside the building, setting off a fire, but we still don't know who fired it," said Dmitry Levonchik, a 45-year-old coal miner. "Who needs this war? What are they fighting for?"

The sounds of gunfire and explosions were heard to the west.
Ukraine Donetsk

Pavel Gubarev, the self-proclaimed governor of the separatist Donetsk region, said the rebels would win quickly if Russia sent troops.

"Of course it would be great to see Russian peacekeepers here: strong artillery units, tank brigades," Gubarev said. "This war would be over in a day, maybe two."

Ukraine and western leaders say they have evidence that Russia is arming the separatists. Russia denies this and describes the Russian citizens fighting in eastern Ukraine as volunteers.

The ongoing battles had delayed the start of an international search for body parts still lying in the fields where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down on 17 July, killing all 298 people on board.

Dutch and Australian experts were able to begin their search on Friday. Early on Sunday, the remains and personal belongings they had found so far were delivered in refrigerated trucks to the city of Kharkiv. The recovered remains will be checked there before being flown to the Netherlands.

Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, the head of the recovery mission, said in a statement late on Saturday that the entire area around a chicken farm near the village of Hrabove had been searched and the experts would move to other sites where aircraft wreckage was found. He previously estimated the search would take at least three weeks.

[Austin]

Russia Sanctions: India Defiant, Finland Nervous

India: 'No Change in Our Policy'

Behind the United States, Russia is by far the world’s second largest arms exporter, inking about $13 billion in global arms sales in 2012, more than half of which went to two customers: India and China.

Russian exports of arms and military equipment to the EU are worth about $4.2 billion annually, whereas European exports to Russia are worth about $400 million, portions of which include the $1.6 billion 2010 deal in which France agreed to sell two Mistral ships to Russia.

While it is highly unlikely that China will go along with the sanctions, India has rebuffed Kerry’s efforts to convince the new government in New Delhi to join the sanctions.

“There is no change in our policy. We think that foreign policy is in continuity. Foreign policy does not change with the change in the government,” India’s External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said on Aug. 1.

Kerry replied that Washington “will obviously welcome India joining in with respect to [sanctions], but it’s India’s choice.”

Prior to the meeting, one Indian official said in private that New Delhi is finding it difficult to cope with the situation as Russia is a long-term strategic partner. However, India is also eager to further strengthen its ties with Washington in this geopolitical situation, the official added.

While India plans to continue the relationship, the US and EU bans on military products will still have some effect on Russian exports.

“It is too early to tell if any arms projects from Russia to India would be affected due to sanctions,” said Nitin Mehta, defense analyst in New Delhi.

A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said India and Russia have, in fact, decided to increase their level of defense cooperation. The source said the talks on a fifth generation fighter aircraft, an Indo-Russian joint project, are being accelerated.

The Indian Air Force expects to order more than 200 of the twin-engine aircraft, which is based on Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK FA, but the Indian government has long complained to Moscow about its low level of participation in the project.

Also, a team from Russian defense giant Rosoboronexport was in New Delhi this month to discuss leasing two Amur-class submarines to the Indian Navy on a fast-track basis, the source added.

[member_20317]

Also, armor-piercing shells would simply come in one side and go out the other of an aircraft wall. The nosetip may be reinforced to survive bird hits, but the rest is only strengthened to take the load of suitcases and Pakis stomping up and down. Aircraft are not built like tanks.

Read "Where Eagles Dare" by Alistair MacLean. The armor-piercing shells from the Panzer went right through the Alpine Bus, repelled by the force field of La Parfum of British Agint 40-30-43 Size D++ Heidi. And aircraft shell is aluminum sheet or composite, not steel armor-plate.

777 was at 33000 ft. The Boeing site says the pressurization of 777 is maintained at around 8000 ft level. Even in a scenario of a few cannon/machine gun piercing the fuselage, the internal pressure would be big enough and the downward journey would still be long enough to simply have the whole fuselage torn apart (just a hunch though).

These newer aircrafts sport a segregated pilot's cabin and a kill zone isolated in that particular area would ensure the kind of whole aircraft coming down that we saw. Which is what the new ishara is pointing towards.

.................

As for the silence of the brits on the orange box - must be thinking of a new lie.

[nachiket]

Those holes in the aircraft skin could also be shrapnel damage from the missile warhead. The Buk missiles warheads have proximity fuses IIRC. So the warhead would explode close to the aircraft sending millions of differently sized pieces of shrapnel flying towards it at supersonic speeds, some of which would enter from one side and fly out the other creating the pattern in the picture.

[Philip]

Even the most anti-Russian entity has not accused Russia of downing the aircraft,but that the separatists supported by Russia shot down the aircraft by mistake. The number of unanswered Qs beggar even that assessment,as how on earth could the separatists even if they had the Buk launcher,distinguish a mil. aircraft from civil airliners which were flying v.close to each other in a continuous stream which included pres.Putin and PM Modi! That latter fact is what intrigues one apart from the false flag op analysis to blacken the reputation of the rebels and Russia.

It is good that India has stayed firm and resisted US pressure to join its asinine sanctions regime.O'Bomber has forgotten JFK's advice on Lyndon Johnson choosing a man he detested as his VP,"better having him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in",
If the US wants to bring about some order in the many global crises that are endangering world peace and the world economy at the moment,he would do batter to bury the hatchet with Russia and send his Joker to Moscow and sort out the mess that he created by supporting a virtual coup d'etat in Kiev.

[Shreeman]

Those holes in the aircraft skin could also be shrapnel damage from the missile warhead. The Buk missiles warheads have proximity fuses IIRC. So the warhead would explode close to the aircraft sending millions of differently sized pieces of shrapnel flying towards it at supersonic speeds, some of which would enter from one side and fly out the other creating the pattern in the picture.

I hate mmaking these posts outside of my expertise. Directly contradicting myself then, the missile system in question, the air tp air cannons, and the short range air to air missiles are all well documented. This would all have been laid bare by now if not for the Baghdad alis on all sides dominating.

The ground to air warhead is quite large fragmented rod type weapon. It would shread a civilian airrcraft so bad elements would be unrecognizable even if it was a near miss. All there will be left will be the black boxes (charred black and not orange) and a huge ground fire. An air to air weapon stands much better chance of decompression+disintegration+large chunks+orange black boxes+ still a large fire.

Make your own informed decisions.

[member_20317]

Proximity fuze is the problem. That ensures that the destruction would be achieved had it been a military jet and also ensures that the destruction would be total in an easily targetable civilian jet. Anyways even cannon shells have delayed action or impact fuzing. We do not know anything about any of the fuzes used hence that part can be left out/abandoned from the theory of MH17 kill.

Re. warheads:
Virtually every anti aircraft missile is going to sport, explosively formed &/or fragmentation warheads. Makes for better probability of hit esp. in a military sense where a simple mission kill at times become far more important then a complete kill. But the fragmentation achieved is not like the howitzer shell fragmentation or even granades/cluster submunition ones where the shell wall itself is designed to fragment. For advanced SAMs that were said to be involved the fragmentation is achieved by pre-fabricated cubes/cylindrical rods small sized and finite in number.

Looks like there is a whole philosophy working behind warhead design. The warheads like howitzer shells that can sport very large number of fragments are meant to be indiscriminately used. But not so the SAM warheads - very much a finite usage. Besides more the fragments, lighter the fragments hence smaller the individual kinetic energy gathered hence do not travel very far (this characterstic will go against the raison d'etre of the SAM warhead). With SAMs however the goal is to reach as far as possible without the kill zone being too sparsely populated by fragments.

Above all else, presuming warhead explosion is the reason, almost all SAM warheads will achieve less discrimination then what we need to have this kind of damage - circularly directed continuous rods, axially directed, simple spherical booms or radially directed gimballed ones. Just sit in your cubicle and imagine a 50 kg warhead exploding (HE but undirected) and try to guess how many of the columns would survive in your office building and then what would be the 10 second effect on the structure of the building. Imagine now a directed warhead and its raw power to cause damage. I doubt if you would reach any conclusion other then the final one of utter destruction in the chosen direction(s). Now realize this is a building we are talking about and not an internally pressurized aluminium light structure facing the same 10 second test.

So nachiket ji the scenario you are talking about becomes much more difficult to achieve. The cannon shots require much less to go wrong for the final effect.

[Austin]

Over 400 Ukrainian troops cross into Russia for refuge

[Austin]

The U.S. Has Repeatedly Lied About Satellite Photographs as a Justification for War

[UlanBatori]

As for the silence of the brits on the orange box - must be thinking of a new lie.

Hain! Bhy nat pooch Ulan Bator CTs for the correct answer?

The British Forens(h)ic experts were busy at the Hearing For ***King PooMouth Anderson, "reconstructing" how the poor defenseless fast bowler was severely threatened and abused by the SDRE runt walking 10 feet in front of him, and he "put up his hands in defense" thereby accidentally touching the back of said runt and sending him flying down the corridor (where the security cameras were all misphortunately "nat working onlee" )

Given the time. "Reconstructing" stories takes time. The British Sense of Just-ISS needs a lot of imagination.
Motto of True British Class:

We Tell No Lies B4 Their Time. Even the Sun Does Not Dare to Turn His Back On Da Brish1t Empire!

Here is the most probably story:
1. The UkBapZis were innocently flying two ground attack Su-25s (Pilots Andersonski and Broadov) practising waving at each other and trying out the new Flower Dispenser to be used over Donetsk.
2. Out of NOWHERE, this radar signature came in, showing Antonov disguised as Boeingski 666 , heading STRAIGHT TOWARDS them, diving from 35,000 feet to 33,000 feet, obviously heading to drop a nuclear bombski TsarBombaski on the Chlorine Plant near Luganksi. If that attack had been allowed to take place, 1,700,000 Innocent Right Sector Civilians transporting totally peaceful AK-47s and RPG launchers and their 640 APCs would have been shaheed.

3. Andersonski and Broadov thereupon climbed as fast as their Little Red Engines could Try, and desperately tried to signal 666ski Antonov to change their evil ways, and go peacefully to Moskva. They fired a few shots to warn Antonovski, using ONLY 400% peaceful cannon shells, each carrying 10 daisies as a mark of TOTAL friendship.

4. The Antonovski (now being claimed to be MH-17) dived at transonic speed straight across and DELIBERATELY COLLIDED with said daisy-bearing cannon shells.

Antonovski and Broadov were so upset by this totally unprovoked aggressive behavior that they radioed using the Call Sign of the US State Departmentski, quoting Most Senior US Diplomatova PooMouthova Hilaria Clintonova:

F**ksi EU! Go back to your commie pinko hangarski!

This was completely misheard as

F**kski U!

and JUST BECAUSE of that, they were shot down by evil Ukrainian Rebel Terrorist Russian-Backed Buk mijjiles fired, mysteriously, from Right-Sector/NATO controlled launchers.

[UlanBatori]

Wonder why Putin is being so stingy with the vodka. Now everyone knows he has plentiful supplies, why not pour it in liberally?

A Russian soldier is posting selfies on Instagram that reveal his exact location, indicating a presence in Ukraine.

I have a feeling that this "accidental selfie" is Putin's answer, telling the freedom fighters that help is coming. He should deliver the vodka to Kiev direct, and take over the West bank of the Dnieper.

[KLNMurthy]

Russia Sanctions: India Defiant, Finland Nervous

India: 'No Change in Our Policy'

Behind the United States, Russia is by far the world’s second largest arms exporter, inking about $13 billion in global arms sales in 2012, more than half of which went to two customers: India and China.

Russian exports of arms and military equipment to the EU are worth about $4.2 billion annually, whereas European exports to Russia are worth about $400 million, portions of which include the $1.6 billion 2010 deal in which France agreed to sell two Mistral ships to Russia.

While it is highly unlikely that China will go along with the sanctions, India has rebuffed Kerry’s efforts to convince the new government in New Delhi to join the sanctions.

“There is no change in our policy. We think that foreign policy is in continuity. Foreign policy does not change with the change in the government,” India’s External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said on Aug. 1.

Kerry replied that Washington “will obviously welcome India joining in with respect to [sanctions], but it’s India’s choice.”

Prior to the meeting, one Indian official said in private that New Delhi is finding it difficult to cope with the situation as Russia is a long-term strategic partner. However, India is also eager to further strengthen its ties with Washington in this geopolitical situation, the official added.

While India plans to continue the relationship, the US and EU bans on military products will still have some effect on Russian exports.

“It is too early to tell if any arms projects from Russia to India would be affected due to sanctions,” said Nitin Mehta, defense analyst in New Delhi.

A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said India and Russia have, in fact, decided to increase their level of defense cooperation. The source said the talks on a fifth generation fighter aircraft, an Indo-Russian joint project, are being accelerated.

The Indian Air Force expects to order more than 200 of the twin-engine aircraft, which is based on Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK FA, but the Indian government has long complained to Moscow about its low level of participation in the project.

Also, a team from Russian defense giant Rosoboronexport was in New Delhi this month to discuss leasing two Amur-class submarines to the Indian Navy on a fast-track basis, the source added.

The choice of the word "defiant" to describe a statement about continuity of policy with the much-beloved UPA government is telling. By definition, only a subordinate can defy and only an authority can be defied.

Language at work in pushing a definition of India.

[Austin]

No compromise’: Big business won’t pressure Putin over sanctions

The big Russian businesses hurt by Western sanctions against Russia won’t even think about putting pressure on President Putin, because the interests of the state are at stake in the conflict, says a reputed presidential ‘inner circle’ figure.

“This is out of the question,” Gennady Timchenko, who is one of the few Russian businessmen personally targeted by the US-championed sanctions, told ITAR-TASS.

“In any situation Putin is guided by the interests of Russia. Period. There can be no compromise about it,” he said. “[Captains of industry] wouldn’t even thing about discussing it. Sanctions pose certain difficulties, but they are trivial next to the scale of the state’s goals.”

Timchenko is the owner of the private investment group Volga Group and former co-owner of oil trader Gunvor Group. He is estimated to worth between $12 billion and $16 billion.

‘Ready to live under sanctions’

Timchenko is among those few Russians who have been directly affected by the worst crisis in US-Russia bilateral relations since the Cold War.

Being banned by Visa and MasterCard, he now uses cash or the Chinese Union card for payments. He had problems paying for his wife’s treatment at a German hospital, because banks would not accept his transfer. But he says this won’t affect his position“I have the inner readiness to live under sanctions,” he said.

Timchenko says he is now cautious about traveling to Europe, even though, unlike the US, the EU hasn’t banned him from entering the 28-nation bloc.

“Alas, I have serious reasons to be cautious of possible provocations from the US special services. Trust me, those are not speculations, but quite tangible information, the details of which I cannot make you privy to yet for obvious reasons,” he said.

He is also not using computers much and minds what he says on his cellphone.

“Mr. Snowden taught us to be more careful with devices. Of course I speak on the phone, but I keep in mind that not only my vis-à-vis is listening.”

‘US blackmailing Europeans’

The influence the US has over the world makes Washington reckless and uncaring about how other countries take it, Timchenko believes.

“Even the largest European banks are hostage to the world financial system, which is controlled by the US. They can do whatever they want to whoever they want,” he said. “Don’t you know how vigorously they are convincing the French to cancel the contract with Russia on Mistral assault ships, offering to reduce the fines against BNP Paribas for their dealings with Iran, Sudan and Cuba?”

“Calling a spade a spade, this is outright blackmail. The US State Department doesn’t hesitate to call top managers of the European banks and dictate which accounts of Russians should be blocked. Many prefer not to take any chances and follow the ‘advice’ from their partners across the ocean.”

The Russian billionaire believes there is an emotional component to America’s current attacks on Russia.

“The US certainly can hurt us more, do some damage to the economy, to the financial sphere, find some pain points. But our position is clear and rightful,” he added. “Russia is a sovereign state defending its sovereign interests. I believe the Americans are angry at us in the first place because we didn’t just roll over like everyone does. That’s why the reaction was so hostile.”

‘Ties with Putin overrated’

Speaking of his relations with Vladimir Putin, Timchenko said it’s overrated by some media, even though the two have known each other for some two decades. The access doesn’t give him influence over Russia’s politics, he said.

“First, we don’t meet as often as many believe. And second, I never mess with things I have no expertise in. I am not a politician and I don’t believe it proper to speak on such issues,” the businessman said.

“Everything comes at a cost. Including contacts with a country’s leadership,” Timchenko added, saying that the hope that Western sanctions would force him and his fellow big businessmen to pressure the Kremlin are futile. “One would be naïve to think that such methods would scare us and make fall back. Don’t try to pressure Russia. Blackmail is counterproductive. We will endure everything and find a way out.”

[ldev]

Philip, this one's specially for you!!

http://www.tomatobubble.com/putin_obama ... X30c.email

[shiv]

Philip, this one's specially for you!!

http://www.tomatobubble.com/putin_obama ... X30c.email

[Austin]

Ukraine a pretext': Russian FM accuses NATO of using conflict to justify its existence

The Ukraine crisis is just one pretexts being used by NATO to create tensions with Russia as the alliance seeks a reason to exist, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said. As NATO expands, it tries “to drive” all Europeans under its “roof,” he said.

NATO “is looking for a new sense of existence,” Lavrov told Russia’s Itar-Tass news agency in an interview. “Russia turned up. If there was no Ukraine, I assure you, there would be another aspect of Russia’s inner or foreign politics used for speculations.”

Speaking about NATO, Lavrov recalled Russia’s urgent withdrawal of troops from Europe 20 years ago on August 31, saying that while there was no reason to rush, post-Soviet officials hoped to become “partners with the West and Europe.”

“And if there is no Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union, and the troops had left, then what is NATO for here? Why bother with all the attributes that belong to the era of the Cold War?" he said.

“These hopes,” however, never came true and NATO keeps expanding, Lavrov said.

Previously Afghanistan “helped” NATO justify its being, but then it became clear that it only “pulls NATO solidarity to the bottom, because it is hopeless to do anything that the alliance was carrying out and the situation with the drugs threat and the drugs industry has worsened appreciably at least, if not for several orders.”

Thus NATO is looking for “a new reason to exist,” Lavrov said. “We have already seen that.”

“First, even Syria – disagreements with the West over Syria, when the West said that Assad can’t be a partner anymore, while we still adhered to the principle that you can’t just overthrow regimes, negotiations needed,” Lavrov said.

Eventually, he added, Russia was blamed for “everything that was happening in Syria.”

“Then it was Snowden. And there was also very big resentment and [attacks] on Russian policy,” Lavrov said. “After that simply because of the [Sochi] Olympic Games – and there it was not clear why: either because the Olympics did take place or because the West suspected [Russia] spent too much to host it, or somebody thought that it [Russia] was too successful and Russia won. I don’t know, but that prejudicial mood was there long before the Ukrainian events.”

Russia’s FM expressed regret over the alliance’s “continuing attempts” to “drive all Europeans under the NATO roof,” calling it a “short-sighted policy.”

“To my great regret, with all the good intentions that we have been given by Western partners in Europe and in America, after all this Cold War inertia and the inability to cope with the ongoing attempts to drive all Europeans under the NATO roof and so from there, from under the roof, [they] talk to us with the same hard voice,” said.

NATO’s policy, Lavrov said, is based on the desire to assert their will at any price.

“And for those who do not agree, they apply sanctions, in other words, take revenge, I know no other way to call it, but avenge for independence and for the unwillingness to follow the one-sided, unipolar world,” he added.

[jimmyray]

Over 400 Ukrainian troops cross into Russia for refuge

It seems that the 72 Mechanized Brigade of Ukrainian Army got trapped between rebel forces and the Russian border. Ran out of ammunition and most of them surrendered. Some soldiers still holding out and negotiations are going on for surrender of rest of the Brigade.
Entire Ukraine Military Brigade Abandons the Battlefield and Surrenders to Donbass Militia

Now Russian news agency reporting surrender of 700 Ukrainian troops in Donetsk region Militias report surrender of over 700 Ukrainian troops in Donetsk region. Not sure the same group or additional Ukrainian troops surrendering

[Philip]

Tx. Idev. Well,there's great site which "proves" that "Michael",...oops! Michel O is really a man,vital stats comparison between men and women,etc.,etc.,and one very revealing pic indicating masculine "plumbing".O'Bummer actually calls her so at a major function. Well what ever the truth of the matter (and I like Ellen Degenerate!) ,his marital inclinations don't worry me as much as his martial ones! But perhaps looking at his military posture at turning around exposing one's rear in retreat from Iraq,Af-Pak,etc.,Freud would've found a connection ja? That's why he sent Biden to Kiev,a better man at kickin' ass.

Now the UKR surrender of 400+ troops if true is simply stunning.In fact I was wondering a couple of days ago whether some of them might be moving into a trap where they would be surrounded and have to drop their pants.I'm sure that they were lured with the promise of tankers of Stoli! This report indicates the shape of things to come,if the UKR forces try and take Donetsk.Putin cares a hoot about sanctions.The Russian "near abroad" is of prime concern.The creeping srategy of NATO upto Russian borders so that it can further destabilise it,is reminiscent of the manner in which Chinese troops have been walking all over Tibet into India.

http://rt.com/news/177868-russia-air-force-exercises/
Russian Air Force begins massive scheduled drills
Published time: August 04, 2014

Russia’s air force has begun five days of large-scale military exercises in the south of the country. As the world’s attention is focused on the conflict in neighboring Ukraine, Russian military has stressed that the drills were scheduled last year.

“These air force and air defense exercises are taking place in accordance with military preparedness plans for 2014 approved last year,” the Russian Ministry of Defense said in a statement. “For the first time ever they will involve three military districts.”

More than 100 aircraft – including SU-27, SU-24, SU-34 and MiG-31 planes, and Russia’s array of military helicopters – are rebasing themselves from airfields in the north and west of the country, to create a massed force at the Ashuluk test site near Astrakhan.

From there they will carry out “multiple sorties that will take tactical and practical actions against ground and air targets, using electronic and live weapons in unfamiliar conditions.” The war games will “also work to improve cooperation between anti-aircraft units and airborne equipment.”

At a later stage, airplanes and helicopters will conduct joint maneuvers, flying out from several different southwestern bases, in Armavir and Krymsk in Krasnodar region, Mozdok in North Ossetia and Morozovsk near Rostov.

In a parallel exercise in the Arctic Circle, MiG-31 and SU-34 jets will be refueled in-flight with the aid of the massive Il-78 air tanker, doubling their flight times from four to eight hours.

Much of the Western media has focused on Russia’s exercises on its Ukrainian border, but Ashuluk, their training hub, is more than 700 kilometers away from the conflict zone, and is in fact almost on the border with Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

Nonetheless, Russia has conducted a series of notable war games since the start of the political and later military crisis in Ukraine that began at the end of last year.

In March and April the Russian military conducted separate mass ground exercises, which officials explicitly linked to the growing unrest in eastern Ukraine. In June, Russia conducted an “unplanned” test of combat readiness of recruits in its central district, which involved units numbering 65,000 soldiers. And just last week, Russia finished tactical maneuvers in the Rostov region bordering Ukraine, which incorporated simulated conflicts between ground troops and over 30 helicopters.

The point about the poor UKR logistics is moot."Amateurs talk tactics,professionals logistics". Forcing the UKR forces far into the east where they can be picked off at will in ambushes with the entire population against them,and cut off from their supplies,which are in short supply after the Donetsk fighters shot down so many UKR aircraft and helicopters,making the only sure route for supplies by road,an arduous task,indicates the scale of the problem facing Kiev.The Bidens,father and son and Rand,etc., might be cracking the whip at their Kiev puppets,desperate for an all out assault on Donetsk and capture it.Even for the sake of argument they somehow manage to do so,holding onto it will be another battle altogether.The Russians can easily resupply the fighters given the fact that they share a common border.If the conflict lingers on and on,expect more surrenders thanks to Gen.Stolichnaya.

What Putin should work at is engineering a military coup in Kiev,as the UKR military finds the going tougher and tougher and the threat of massive Russian attack.What better fate than being overlord of Kiev and half the country with assured energy supplies,the confiscated wealth of oligarchs like the Chocolate soldier's billions,WITH the support of Russia than tramping up and down eastern fields and marshes and being shot at by partisans?!

[UlanBatori]

So if two mechanized brigades of Soviet equipment are turned over to the Freedom Fighters, presumably those "captured weapons" can appear in well-trained hands, and be turned against the remaining UkBapZis, turning a trickle into an avalanche. The Dnieper may become a Bridge too far for the UkBapZis, and with their major force cut off and surrendering, Kiev suddenly becomes indefensible.

I trust that Real Mard Putin has all these in mind...

[Gagan]

Putin: Angelica, Need Free Gas?
Angela: O Mein Got! (OMG) Certainly need!
Putin: Just press this button

[Austin]

Japanese Cabinet approves additional sanctions on Russia over Ukraine

TOKYO, August 05, 5:41 /ITAR-TASS/. Japan’s Cabinet has approved additional sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, the Kyodo news agency reported on Tuesday.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's Cabinet formally approved the decision announced last week by the government as the United States and the European Union stepped up pressure on Russia with widened sanctions, Kyodo says. “Assets held in Japan by those directly involved in Russia's annexation of Crimea or the instability in eastern Ukraine will be frozen. Japan will also limit imports of Crimea-made products,” the report says.

The lists of sanctions on Russia that the Japanese Cabinet approved on Tuesday over Ukraine includes 40 individuals and two companies, the Japanese Foreign Ministry told Itar-Tass.

[Johann]

You should also go back and read what you wrote. It is easy to claim victimhood. And this is not political. Those vultures are dying by dozens every day, and have ballistic missiles aimed at them. Need we apportion the blame now?

This is an assymetric fight, but after the Libyas and Syrias, it is not fooling anyone. The precedents of the last decade (read kosovo) are terrible. Sooner or later fate brings us all in close contact with the reality.

You can not blame the forum for pointing out the propaganda. We share the grief, but to support the propaganda is to lay the groundwork for a gaza style assault as you have yourself admitted. Why arw the dutch lives so much more precious than countless civilians trapped and dying in this meaningless game.

Grief is not a license for anything except crying. I have no sympathies for either side in this or any other armed conflict. Truth is the first casualty of any war. And you are far too intelligent to let your grief blame people who may have had npthing to do to cause it.

Posting that as some sort of special behavior limited to those who do not see eye to eye with the US State Department's Neo-Nazi mercenaries, is, at least on this forum, like standing up with a "spit here" sign painted on one's shirt.

Shreeman, N

- I really don't care about the conflict at the moment. I care about my friends first which is why I'd say what I said about that sort of thing regardless of when or where the plane went down.

I said nothing about about it being 'special behavior' limited to the area.

As I said its my mistake for being human for a moment in a space where only politics counts without adding half a dozen disclaimers - I didn't think it was necessary in a place where people have already emphatically made up their minds about everything.

In any case the Dutch banks have sorted it out. Its the other ones that have been harder.

But you guys go ahead and fight your super important battles.

[member_20317]

Dear Oldies,

doesn't make sense to carry anger/hurt against the other esp. if it begins to exceed the anger/hurt against the enemy. People do live a sentimental side of existence.

Priceless samajh kar bola hai, hope you don't treat it as worthless.


..................................

I think a coup is a better option than an invasion at this point. This place belongs to the Slavs and slavs are facing what we Hindus have had to face for long. These stupid alliances do not last even when they win. Except perhaps in their greed. This place belongs to Russia and they should take it. Hope Putin acts to protect these ethnically identical people from fighting against each other for the benefit of the umrikhans and uropains.

What has targeted these people will also target us Indians, at some point.

[RSoami]

I have friends in eastern Ukraine who are being bombed daily. I have lost so many of my friends already and I have seen their mothers and sisters crying.

They are being bombed by Ukbapzis daily with regimes in UK and US egging them on.

You people please carry on your super important discussions about some credit card problems and bank issues.

I should not have told you all this because its a personal story.

etc etc.

[RSoami]

The washington post reports that the `rebels` are killing civilians in Donetsk. And so Ukraine has asked civilians to vacate the city to avoid being killed and to clear the path for Ukbapzi military.

RT reports that Ukbapzis have brought Smerch and Uragan rocket launchers and Tochka U ballistic missile systems towards Donetsk.

Adding 2 and 2, it seems the Ukbapzis are keen to flatten another city of their country. And then get into a situation where they start matching Pakistan in the begging department.

The all important question now is what will happen to the credit cards of the `disgusting vultures` who will be killed in the assault?! Do they have credit cards ?!

[Shreeman]

You should also go back and read what you wrote. It is easy to claim victimhood. And this is not political. Those vultures are dying by dozens every day, and have ballistic missiles aimed at them. Need we apportion the blame now?

This is an assymetric fight, but after the Libyas and Syrias, it is not fooling anyone. The precedents of the last decade (read kosovo) are terrible. Sooner or later fate brings us all in close contact with the reality.

You can not blame the forum for pointing out the propaganda. We share the grief, but to support the propaganda is to lay the groundwork for a gaza style assault as you have yourself admitted. Why arw the dutch lives so much more precious than countless civilians trapped and dying in this meaningless game.

Grief is not a license for anything except crying. I have no sympathies for either side in this or any other armed conflict. Truth is the first casualty of any war. And you are far too intelligent to let your grief blame people who may have had npthing to do to cause it.

Posting that as some sort of special behavior limited to those who do not see eye to eye with the US State Department's Neo-Nazi mercenaries, is, at least on this forum, like standing up with a "spit here" sign painted on one's shirt.

Shreeman, N

- I really don't care about the conflict at the moment. I care about my friends first which is why I'd say what I said about that sort of thing regardless of when or where the plane went down.

I said nothing about about it being 'special behavior' limited to the area.

As I said its my mistake for being human for a moment in a space where only politics counts without adding half a dozen disclaimers - I didn't think it was necessary in a place where people have already emphatically made up their minds about everything.

In any case the Dutch banks have sorted it out. Its the other ones that have been harder.

But you guys go ahead and fight your super important battles.

Johann,

This is my last email in this back and forth.

I am in no fights, and having held a stick AND hurt (closer than mentor of a friend) by a crash you would only have had sympathy from me, if you had omitted coarse language. I have seen no tinge of regret for that either.

You have been consoled, and I had not seen any acknowledgement of that either. Humility is a value, it has its place. Admitting a mistake goes a long way in correcting it.

I wish you and yours well, and hope you will distinguish personal and political better. Send some flowers to one of the crash victims that are not dutch, it will make you feel better. I have done more and for no particular reason.

best regards.