Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2014 21:23

Klaus wrote:^^^ The timelines do not match, in fact it is Abhimanyu who has the rakshasa-amsha and is Bhaumasura (Narakasura) reborn in the house of Krishna himself (his death on the 13th day of war causes the most grief and the inevitable spiral into Kaliyuga).

It was Duryodhana's plan to have Susharma (the Samsaptaka army) lead Arjuna away on the 13th day so that his son could be specifically targeted and taken out brutally inside the chakravyuha.

What the dushta-chautasya did not expect was the Bhagavad Gita in the centre of the battlefield where Yogeshwara advises Partha to not apply Dharma based rules of battle against Adharma personified. This turns Abhimanyu's death into a backlash on the Kaurava army but also ends up creating a geopolitical vaccuum in large parts of the sub-continent (despite Ashwamedha yagna following shortly).



Klaus elaborate on this for the benefit of others.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby RamaY » 29 Jul 2014 00:17

Manusmriti 23

क्रष्णसारस्तु चरति म्रिगो यत्र स्वभावत​:
स ज्णेयो यज्णियो देशो म्लेच्छ देश स्त्यत​: पर:

kRshNasaarastu charati mRgO yatra swabhaavata:
sa jNEyO yajNiyO deSO mlEchcha dESa styata: para:

Where deers have their natural habitat {Life sustaining area for deers without any fear of predators} such land is suitable for Yajna. All other regions are not suitable for Yajna, hence they are called Mlechchas.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Jul 2014 03:44

What is Shankh (Conch)?

A Shankh (conch) is a natural cover/wrapper of an oceanic worm/creature that protects him from the out side attacks/dangers, and when the worm grows up he comes out from it and he throws it away forever.
Types of Shankh (Conch) ......

1. Dakshinavarti Shankha (दक्षिणावर्ती शंख): The Shankha that is open from right side is known as “Dakshinavarti Shankha” Shankha …..!! It is rare, white in color and contains a brownish line on it.

2. Vamavarti Shankha (वामावर्ती शंख): It opens from left side that’s why it is called Vamavarti; it is used in all the religious activities. Astrologers recommend this SHANKHA to remove the negative energy.

There are a lot of more types of SHANKHA but these two are the main types of SHANKHA.

SPIRITUAL IMPORTANCE :-
SHANKHA is one of the 14 gems (RATNA) received from churning sea (SAMUNDRA MANTHAN.)
SHANKHA’s sound is a symbol of victory in VEDAS
SHANKHA produces the sound of OM.

___________________________________________
श्रीमद् भगवद् गीता अध्याय-1 (15)
पाञ्चजन्यं हृषीकेशो देवदत्तं धनञ्जयः |
पौण्ड्रं दध्मौ महाशङ्खं भीमकर्मा वृकोदरः ||
श्रीकृष्ण महाराजने पाज्चजन्य नामक, अर्जुनने देवदत्त नामक और भीमसेनने पौण्ड्र नामक महाशंख बजाया ।
___________________________________________
SHANKHA is produced from SAMUNDRA-MANTHAN and Bhagwan Vishnu accepted SHANKA for his special adornment. So SHANKHA belongs to Bhagwan Vishnu

SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS:
1. According to Vedic science ….. As far as the SHANKHA’s sound goes, it destroys the harmful micro bacteria from the atmosphere or at least makes them unconscious. (Modern science and scientists also accepted the fact)

2. According to ASTROLOGY science, SHANKHA’s sound destroys the negative energy from the atmosphere.

3. Playing SHANKHA regularly is beneficial in respiratory diseases like
asthma and liver problems.

4. Playing SHANKHA is equal to doing PRANAYAM (yoga) that saves us from the most deadly diseases like heart attack, high blood pressure, respiratory diseases, lever related problems etc.

5. Offering water to sun by the Dakshinavarti Shankha protects one from the eye disorders.

6. Regular use of a SHANKHA removes deafness and impediments.

7. A SHANKHA contains plenty of calcium, brimstone and phosphorous in it, and when we put water in a SHANKHA for a while, water becomes fragrant and sterile. That’s why this water is used in religious rituals, prayers and also sprinkled over the people.

8. SHANKHA water is sprinkled over the people that protects them from the skin diseases.

9. Put GANGA WATER in SHANKHA for the whole night and next day in the morning give it to the heart patients and the patients of diabetes to rinse with it. It will surely help.

10. According to VASTU SHASTRA, having a SHANKHA at home removes all the VASTU DOSH (Architectural Defects) of building.

Famous Indian Scientist JAGDISH CHANDRA BOSE did a lot of experiments on SHANKHA and SHANKHA's sound and finally he reached the conclusion that SHANKHA's sound is special, through his experiments he proved many scientific and medical importance of SHANKHA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SrinivasK » 29 Jul 2014 18:05

matrimc wrote:
panduranghari wrote:Would you concur that atmaarpaan is close enough to euthanasia? If not then why not?

This is an interesting question.

I think these two are distinct if one assigns the widely accepted end goal to euthanasia which is to "escape"/"to allow the escape of" physical (and/or mental - in case of mental illnesses like Alzheimers) pain through death. The only conclusion one can reach is that the people who willingly euthanize themselves/get euthanized believe life to be a clockwork machanism. Complex may be but still a mechanism where the end condition of the mechanism deteriorating into a state of non-operation is predetermined. This belief in turn precludes both soul and God (to use western constructs). This view is a direct contradiction of the beliefs propounded by fundamental religions (or religions of the book) and hence are to be excommunicated (or in middle ages or those who want the humanity to go back to stone age - to be burnt at stake, males are to be decapitated and women to be taken as wives/keeps/concubines in a paishAchika/rAkshasa vivaha).

In case of atmArpaNa: mOksha is nothing but the realization that Atma and paramAtma are one and the same (at least according to advaita). For this realization to occur, one has to start with a belief in the existence of Atma and paramAtma at the minimum. Once the realization occurs, whether the body is a simply an automaton or not is irrelevant. In fact bhagawatgIta says the same in the shloka "vAsAmsi jeeRNAni ...".

My two cents.


Since the topic of Moksha came up, I would highly recommend a book called Sri Tripura Rahasya ( http://www.amazon.com/Tripura-Rahasya-S ... 0941532496 ). Ramana Maharshi himself apparently quoted extensively from this book. I used to have this in Telugu translation given by my grandfather 15 years ago, which I never read, and now I can't find it in the house anymore!

If any of you do intend to read it, it is over 300 pages. My humble suggestion would be - please do not discard in the middle and please do not jump ahead. The best minds of humanity composed it and it needs to be read the way they composed it.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby panduranghari » 29 Jul 2014 18:28

Srinivas Thanks. Just bought it. Will read it.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Prasad » 29 Jul 2014 19:53

Continuing with my inane fixation with vegetarianism and meat-eating and a few observations upon re-reading the MB- eating meat wasn't frowned upon. Pork was served by Yudishtira to brahmanas. When they started their vanvaas, numerous brahmanas accompanied the pandavas into the forest. There they hunted deer and eat them, apart from fruits and roots and shoots. This is all matter of fact in the narration.

Makes one realise just how much of an impact buddhism and jainism had in modifiying hinduism. Amazing when you think about it.

Also, when it comes to dating the MB, it makes clear mention of pandya kingdom. Now, the Ramayan also does and it is an earlier work compared to the MB. And the early pandyan kingdom began around 600 BC(?).

A cultural observation - Women weren't averse to approaching men, quite forthrightly, asking to indulge in *ahem ahem*. Also, the descriptions of women are quite unabashed. Urvashi, while she approaches Arjuna, is described as one with bosoms so heavy that her shoulders droop forward. Writing something like that today of Uma or Sridevi would invite the Batras and assorted idiots. Sigh

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 29 Jul 2014 20:01

Go on to Shanti Parva where Bhisma expounds on vegetarianism. The roots of both the Jain and Buddha path are there.
Jainism is really a Greens movment where they dissuaded from animal sacrifice and essentially reducing human footprint. Buddhist path is a form of karma kanda fused with bhakti yoga sans God to attain nirvana by breaking the kala chakra by living a good life.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 Jul 2014 09:44

:oops: viv ji: All these days I was addressing you without "ji".

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 Jul 2014 09:51

Is the word "pAnDyan" from the the Tamizh Pandyan kingdom cognate with "pAnDavA" of kuruvamsha? IOW, is it a vestigial kingdom of the MB aftermath?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Prasad » 31 Jul 2014 11:16

Doubt it. They're mentioned as contemporaries.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2014 18:33

Pandyan, What does pandyan mean in Tamil?

BTW root panda in pandit means learned one in Sanskrit.

Looks like JLN was opposite or suntah!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby vsunder » 04 Aug 2014 05:33

Question motivated by Shri Modi's speech in Nepal. He mentions 51 Shakti Peethas and goes on to state that Nepal has two or three etc. etc. The wiki entry of course mentions the locations of all these 51. However there are in addition 18 additional Shakti Peethas called Maha Shakti Peethas, the uber Peethas, as stated in a famous shloka of Adi Shankara. These are among others one in Trinco, SL, Kanchipuram and other places. These 18 Maha Shakti peethas are not part of the list of 51. So why are they not 69 Shakti Peethas, 51+18. I have always found this count ambiguous. Should not the uber ones be part of the list of 51? I would surmise that the 51 are far older than Adi Shankaracharya and he perhaps did not want to include some since perhaps they may have been associated with the left handed way. It is a fact that a large number of the 51 are indeed concentrated in the East, and even in Bangladesh where Tantrism was very strong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_Peethas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti_Pee ... kti_Pithas

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby gandharva » 04 Aug 2014 07:00

Must listen talk by Rajiv M on rituals, Tirthas etc.
http://new.livestream.com/mum/events/32 ... s/58178352

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby johneeG » 09 Aug 2014 07:48

Prasad wrote:Continuing with my inane fixation with vegetarianism and meat-eating and a few observations upon re-reading the MB- eating meat wasn't frowned upon. Pork was served by Yudishtira to brahmanas. When they started their vanvaas, numerous brahmanas accompanied the pandavas into the forest. There they hunted deer and eat them, apart from fruits and roots and shoots. This is all matter of fact in the narration.

Makes one realise just how much of an impact buddhism and jainism had in modifiying hinduism. Amazing when you think about it.

Also, when it comes to dating the MB, it makes clear mention of pandya kingdom. Now, the Ramayan also does and it is an earlier work compared to the MB. And the early pandyan kingdom began around 600 BC(?).

A cultural observation - Women weren't averse to approaching men, quite forthrightly, asking to indulge in *ahem ahem*. Also, the descriptions of women are quite unabashed. Urvashi, while she approaches Arjuna, is described as one with bosoms so heavy that her shoulders droop forward. Writing something like that today of Uma or Sridevi would invite the Batras and assorted idiots. Sigh


Yes, saar, most of these are good points and they seem to be quite convoluted.

I think Pandya may be referring to a region rather than the dynasty. Now, there are some who assume that these references are due to interpolations and extrapolations. Thats possible. But, it is also possible that it is not the case.

About sensuality: It seems that actually denying the women who come for ahem ahem was considered wrong. Urvashi also curses Arjuna because she was denied. Arjuna gives a reason for denying her (she had affair with one of his ancestors). Similarly, Raama has to use all kinds of excuses to deny Shurpanaka. So, it seems that denying the women who come with a desire was considered wrong.

It seems to me that there were two trends at different points of time:
One trend was ahem ahem only within the framework of marriage. This seems to be a more general trend. However, there also seems to be another trend of ahem ahem outside the marriage. But this trend seems to have been rare and followed during times when the society was in upheaval. In general times, ahem ahem was done within the framework of marriage. The women had the freedom to approach men but it also meant a commitment. The same was true for men.

Meat eating is another convoluted subject. It seems that the hunting was generally done to kill the carnivores. At that time, the forests were spread all over. Frequently, the number of carnivores would increase and they had to be reduced by hunting them down. This was considered a royal duty or govt duty.

The central region had powerful and rich cities long long time ago. Then it became forests and uninhabitable. So, it was filled by carnivores and cannibals. Then, it was slowly reclaimed by the cities and towns. Central region of Bhaarath had towns once upon a time, then it had forests, then it again became slowly urbanized. All this is a gradual process extending several years.

Similarly, it seems that the Dhandaka forests were very thick. If one adds Vindhya mountains to this forests, then it becomes virtually impassable. At some point, it seems that place became impassable for certain time. People panicked because the north and south were cut off.

But, the brave Agasthya who was in Kaashi crossed the central forests, then crossed Vindyas and settled in Pandya region. Then, many other ascetics seem to have followed his lead and settled in the Dhandaka forests and central forests. It was Agasthya who allowed the people to hunt the deer of the forest. Before that, it seems like hunting was considered as 'himsa' i.e. violence especially for ascetics. But, it seems like Agasthya laid down the rule that deer are a fair game. Of course, Kings were expected to kill carnivores once in a while to keep their numbers in check. But, carnivores were killed to keep their numbers down while the deer seem to have been hunted for food or for offering them in rituals. Killing deer seems to have been okayed by Agasthya. Rest of the ascetics seem to have followed Agasthya's lead.

This is were one finds the story of Agasthya killing Vathapi and Ilvala who used to trick people by feeding them meat of a goat.

It seems like even the Northern Kingdoms were hemmed by the forests and mountains. The east seems to be much better for a kingdom. It seems like Magadha was the powerful kingdom because it had lesser amount of forests in its region. So, it could expand freely. Magadha is an eastern kingdom. If we move further east from Magadha, then again the forests and moutains seem to increase. Magadha is sort of placed ideally because it had less number of forests and mountains in its own domain but still protected by them nevertheless.

Actually, it seems like the coasts and plateaus were ideally suited for establishing new cities and towns. The rivers and seas could also be used for navigation. And the coast or plateau would have lesser density of forests. Thats why it seems like the kingdoms were established in coasts or plateaus.


Of course, there is a point of killing animals during Yagna.

There is another complication due to wrong translations.

For example: (The following translation is based on K M Ganguly's work.)
SECTION 04
(SABHA PARVA)
"Vaishampayana said, “Then that chief of men, King Yudhishthira, entered that palatial sabha having first fed ten thousand Brahmanas with preparations of milk and rice mixed with clarified butter and honey with fruits and roots, and with pork and venison. The King gratified those superior Brahmanas, who had come from various countries with food seasoned with seasamum and prepared with vegetables called jibanti, with rice mixed with clarified butter, with different preparations of meat--with indeed various kinds of other food and also numberless viands that are fit to be sucked and innumerable kinds of drinks, with new and unused robes and clothes, and with excellent floral wreaths. The King also gave to each of those Brahmanas a thousand cows. And, O Bharatha, the voice of the gratified Brahmanas uttering, ‘What an auspicious day is this!’ became so loud that it seemed to reach heaven itself. And when the Kuru King entered the palatial sabha having also worshipped the Gods with various kinds of music and numerous species of excellent and costly perfumes, the athletes and mimes and prize-fighters and bards and encomiasts began to gratify that illustrious son of Dharma by exhibiting their skill. And thus celebrating his entry into the palace, Yudhishthira with his brothers sported within that palace like Shakra (Indhra) himself in heaven.


However, in Sanskruth version, the meat is not mentioned.
1 [व]
ततः परवेशनं चक्रे तस्यां राजा युधिष्ठिरः
अयुतं भॊजयाम आस बराह्मणानां नराधिपः
2 घृतपायसेन मधुना भक्ष्यैर मूलफलैस तथा

अहतैश चैव वासॊभिर माल्यैर उच्चावचैर अपि
3 ददौ तेभ्यः सहस्राणि गवां परत्येकशः परभुः
पुण्याहघॊषस तत्रासीद दिवस्पृग इव भारत
4 वादित्रैर विविधैर गीतैर गन्धैर उच्चावचैर अपि
पूजयित्वा कुरुश्रेष्ठॊ दैवतानि निवेश्य च
5 तत्र मल्ला नटा झल्लाः सूता वैतालिकास तथा
उपतस्थुर महात्मानं सप्तरात्रं युधिष्ठिरम
6 तथा स कृत्वा पूजां तां भरातृभिः सह पाण्डवः
तस्यां सभायां रम्यायां रेमे शक्रॊ यथा दिवि


Link

Grutha -> Ghee
Paysena -> with Paaysam(made with milk and rice).
Madhuna -> with Madhu(Honey)
Bakshair -> with eatables
moola -> roots
falair -> fruits

As can be seen, the meat is not mentioned in the sanskruth version but it is mentioned in translation by K M Ganguly. So, such things also add to confusion.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Rahul M » 09 Aug 2014 09:30

please start a new thread with a link to this page in its first post.


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