Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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brar_w
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by brar_w »

The CNO of the USN,Adm.Greenert has been emphasising "payload centric" instead of "platform centric" warfare in recent times,as the development of LR PGMs has made even legacy aircraft relevant well beyond their intended lifespan.
Bringing up the USN is always funny on these type of discussions..They have come around to "platform-centric" platforms after a long reforming that needed to knock some hard sense into them. Post cold war they resisted the most. The USAF was on board that no one platform, despite of how capable it is can be a "single-use" weapon system. They moved to the common platform much earlier while the USN was reluctant..Even during the development of PGM's the USN resisted and wanted the USAF to prove that there is some benefit to them before they came on-board. What the CNO is suggesting is basically USN's multi-role sensor-weapon chain that the USAF has advocated in the post cold war. The JSF is precisely that - a platform that aims at the SENSORS and the WEAPONS and leaves it to the tacticians to find the way to connect the dots. Similarly the Evolution of the B-1 and B-52 into tactical CAS platforms is another way the sensor-target loop has been completed using SAC's strategic nuclear deterrent triad component. Long range PGM's have one very very big drawback i.e they require extremely fast platform-target times. As Iraq, balkans and Afghanistan has shown the future fighting force would not be dumb enough to fix its IAD or C2C structure and PGM's are going to be practically useless from SO ranges when dealing with a tremendous volume of decoys and a very fast moving integrated IAD coupled to a mobile rapidly transforming C2C structure that is not centralized. Here the sensor-target loops can only be reduced by either LONG RANGE Hypersonics (500-1000nm @ Mach 5) or through being over the targets with very very high quality sensors all linked up through very capable data links backed by capable and fast processing that can be kept relevant through affordable upgrades (Moore's Law). The Funny thing in US mil structure is that if you want to know what the USN plans to do 10 years from now, just check what the USAF is doing today.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Victor »

BRF had chosen the Rafale even before the IAF did and discussions back then were skewed towards the technically best aircraft winning the competition, not which was the best fit for our situation. Even the IAF and MoD had announced at the time that cost was no barrier and that we wanted "the best" and we wanted all of it, including full ToT (wtf that means). Like all chest puffing bombast, that has come home to kick us in the ass and of course, we need to swallow our pride and reassess things.

As I did back then, I still believe that the F-18 is the best option for us and should we choose it even now, we will get it much faster and far cheaper than the Rafale. Not only that, since the LCA2 also uses the same engine, we will have tremendous savings in maintenance and logistics over decades. It is one of the most feared warplanes around with the best radar and weapons system available and I am absolutely unconvinced that a more agile fighter has any advantage over it, not that the Shornet is a slouch. The billions saved can be plowed into the LCA2 and AMCA which can then develop without pressure and be done right.

If Shornet is off the table 100% for whatever reason, we should forget making the Rafale in India and just buy it off the shelf which will also bring us the fighters much faster and cheaper. Again, the money saved goes to LCA2 and AMCA but to expect HAL to absorb anything from spoonfed technology is as pathetic as the naive belief in "full ToT". The only thing certain is the fact that we need jets quickly and we simply cannot wait.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by VishalJ »

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Niranjan »

That Bird In The Sky
India’s search for a 5th Gen fighter jet is on the cusp. Will the Rafale deal come through or is it back to the bid station for an underwhelmed IAF?
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Niranjan »

Get It Flying
Finalise the purchase of the Rafale as second-guessing will cause more delays and cost escalations.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Rien »

brar_w wrote: Tejas will probably be less obsolete simply because the IAF and IN would have more control over it than the Rafale or any other western fighter. Aircraft obselence is a function of the direct work one is able to put into the aircraft to keep it relevant. The more you have to rely on the french for upgrades the more you are stuck on what you can accomplish simply due to the cost. At the moment for most nations operating it the F-16 is not obsolete, while the M2K fleets around the world are. The F-16 has AESA, a string of EW solutions, bigger engines a boatload of weapons cleared, IRST and what not. This is because the chief operators driving this change exercised control over the product to keep it relevant. The LCA will be in a similar fashion. Its IAF's fighter, IAF's code, IAF's integration machinery working to keep it relevant through out the evolving threat index.
I'm not sure that even parses as a sentence. What is an "evolving threat index"? Aircraft obsolescence is influenced by how old the design is. The F-16 has been obsolete for many years, and cannot catch up to fighters like the Gripen NG or Tejas Mark 2. You can apply as much lipstick as you like to a pig, it remains a pig at the end of the day.

The low RCS and modern engines of current fighters is not something that can be applied to an F-16. Likewise with modern avionics and all the other gizmos that were developed since the introduction of the F-16. It's been upgraded to its limits already, and metal fatigue means it can't be kept flying with upgrades. Bharat's experience with the Mig-21/Bis shows the limits to this approach. Endless crashes of an airframe flogged beyond its breaking point isn't a smart thing to do.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

@victor

MRCA competition is about getting the best aircraft AND ToT. The F18 does not meet those requirements, why supporting the F18 ?

Even if it was an off the shelf purchase, the rafale could come much faster (France is desperate to divert its own rafale on the production line to cope with a spending peek and resume deliveries latter) and it is not more expensive overall than the F18 as found by the Brazilian : Slightly more expensive to buy but cheaper to operate.

The price for india is link to ToT and duplicating the entire production chain for "only" 126 aircrafts.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Austin »

arthuro wrote:The price for india is link to ToT and duplicating the entire production chain for "only" 126 aircrafts.
Its 126 with the option for 74 more lic built.

But as we know from previous Lic Manuf deal be it Jaguar , Mig-27 , Mig-21 or more recently Su-30MKI the final number eventually baloons up , We still lic manuf Jags purchased in early 80's
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28397 »

scrap the 22 billion $ Rafale deal, invest 7 billion US $ the amount in Tejas MK2 and 7 in semiconductor manufacturing industries and 7 in Kaveri engine programe, we still have 1 billion left, invest that amount in building bases in Afganistan to secure ever increasing investments.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Victor wrote: As I did back then, I still believe that the F-18 is the best option for us and should we choose it even now, we will get it much faster and far cheaper than the Rafale.
As someone raised the issue of MMRCA capabilities in 2040, the Rafale fits best in all the fields:
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... page1.aspx

Rafale has excellent payload for its small size. Officially Rafale C can carry a incredible 20900 pounds of payload despite the fact that it is slightly smaller than Typhoon which can carry only 16500 pounds.

The payload of Rafale C is also officially MORE than F-18EF ( F-18EF is 42% larger than rafale C, but F-18ef carries only 17700 pound officially).

And this is not all. When Rafale get its uprated M88-3 engine and when the new 3000 liter (792.6gals) center line external fuel tank is being qualified for use, rafale external payload weight will further increase to almost 23000 pound !!! Thats almost the same as the 24000 pounds achieve by the 50-65% larger F-15E.

Rafale C MTOW will soon be increase to 60,000 pounds. Rafale C is about 20680 pound when empty. Its MTOW to empty weight ratio is 2.9 times !!

F-15E MTOW to empty ratio is 2.56 or less. F-15E probably rank second.

No other airplane is close or even close. eurofighter Typhoon MTWO to empty weight is only 2.14 !

B-2 bomber may have highere MTOW to empty weight ratio. But B-2 is a subsonic load carrying bomber. For fighter plane comparison Rafale C MTOW to empty weight ratio is HIGHEST among all supersonic fighter aircraft.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Austin wrote:
arthuro wrote:The price for india is link to ToT and duplicating the entire production chain for "only" 126 aircrafts.
Its 126 with the option for 74 more lic built.

But as we know from previous Lic Manuf deal be it Jaguar , Mig-27 , Mig-21 or more recently Su-30MKI the final number eventually baloons up , We still lic manuf Jags purchased in early 80's
I thought the figure was 63. Like 126 + 63.

Would be nice to have next lot with conformal tanks and more powerful engines:
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

Niranjan wrote:That Bird In The Sky

The hectic lobbying on to rewire a $22 billion deal
$22 billion now?
Initially, it was thought that the Mirage 2000-5 aircraft (it had impressed during the 1999 Kargil campaign) should be upgraded. But later that idea was junked and the search began for a newer, better combat jet. Since the Indian economy was booming, the political bosses had told the IAF top brass to “go for the best and not to worry about the cost”.
:shock:
French officials, though, continue to put up a brave front in public. “The deal is progressing well but it turned out to be more complicated than what we had expected,” confesses a foreign official. Three of the four government committees set up on issues like maintenance, offset and transfer of technology are all complete. Only the fourth, final negotiations on price and production sharing agreement, are yet to be fina­l­ised.
So 'only' the agreement on price (and production sharing) remains pending for the Cost Negotiation Committee.
They also point out that technology offered through Raf­ale would give India an edge over rivals for the next 30-40 years.
Poppycock. It'll retain an edge (and not a huge one at that) for maybe 5 years at best. The J-31 will be in service by 2020 and FOC no later than 2025. Rafale production at HAL on the other hand will carry on till 2026 for the 126 aircraft, if all goes per plan (later if it doesn't).
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

The J31 is quite a joke...They cannot make their own engine properly, they still buy russian jet and we are suppose to believe the J31 is a silver bullet ?

For the naive, they see a blended fuselage and suddenly it is "invincivle" and it is automatically associated with lattest technologies when it is actually an empty hull that will not reach its potential before years. And even then nothing prove it will be able to be as conpetitive some want to believe.

The ToT associated with the rafale covers every technology used in a high end 5th gen jet unlike chineese Wannabes. And the rafale india is getting is based on the F3R standard which is still in development (GaN spectra etc...) so it can hardly be callled obsolete
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

Double post
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by brar_w »

rein wrote: What is an "evolving threat index"?
Evolving threat is often calculated and compared to the current capability and what is in the pipeline to counter that threat. If a nation X only has to fend off F-5's, a basic Mig-21 BIS may be more than capable. If the major threat to a nation Y is terrorists on the ground a modified Hawk is more than capable. Similarly if a threat shows up with advanced flankers, super flanker, a couple of 5th generation designs then capability comparison goes into a whole different level.
Aircraft obsolescence is influenced by how old the design is.
Thats not particularly very true. The biggest determinant is the mission requirement and then the level of the threat and the enemy's capability. The AGE of the design influences the mission profile and what "room-to-grow" still exists in that design to counter the evolving threat.
The F-16 has been obsolete for many years, and cannot catch up to fighters like the Gripen NG or Tejas Mark 2.


Has the Mk2 prototype flown? The Gripen may be more advanced for some operators and it very much is. And the NG won't be flying before 2018 at best, the F-16 I and Block 60 are in service and have been for some years. The block 60 declared IOC with an AESA, integrated IRST, Active EW suite and an avionics overhaul almost a decade ago. The Gripen NG won't declare operational capability till 2018 if there is no delay. Export customers probably won't get it before next decade a full 15 years after the Blk 60 F-16 was declared operational. Thats not even a valid comparison. Other operators may not be able to extract the same level of performance from a Gripen NG that actually makes it superior. The USAF and IDF are perfect examples. For them the F-16 is a mud moving work horse. Pile on the weapons profile and a ton of fuel and the advantages of the Gripen NG vis-a-vis its modest super cruise (compared to other modern aircraft) simply fades away. This is one issue and reason why the USN restricted the F-18SH's performance emphasis on transonic performance..With the sort of stuff that is required from it, a high supersonic performance won't be of any use once the payload and fuel is thrown on it.
You can apply as much lipstick as you like to a pig, it remains a pig at the end of the day.
What a brilliant technical analysis as usual. Deserves a standing ovation this time.

OTOH the forces that operate these aircrafts, and you the ones that have to pay for modifications and upgrades choose what goes into the aircraft as it grows in capabilities. Each and every capability that is added has to earn its way in and the thing that determines that is mission requirement. The F-16I and higher block 50 variants (that are being upgraded now) are kitted around the mud moving mission. That is because this is the sort of missions these aircrafts do every day. Things like AESA, PODS, CFT's newer weapons, UAI compatibility have been added to enhance this aspect of the mission. God bless if the operators actually demand mission enhancements that increase the capability of what they actually do as opposed to a completely useless upgrade that leads them no where in terms of better mission effectiveness. Others have added high end EW gear both for A2A and for penetrating air defenses (Falcon edge). Had the main operator decided to upgrade the F-16 significantly in all areas in stead of pursuing a clean sheet design plenty of things could have been added and a lot of them were independently studied. Things such as a new wing (delta), Asymmetrical 3D TVC and an avionics overhaul (Much of which occurred for specific customers such as the UAE).

The second F-16XL, ship no. 2, a two-seater, was delivered to NASA with a developmental engine that needed to be replaced before any flight testing could be done. NASA acquired a General Electric F110-129 engine through GD Ft. Worth, which provided surprisingly good performance. Supercruise was accidentally achieved in military power early on in the program; a speed of Mach 1.1 was achieved at 20,000 feet.

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The low RCS and modern engines of current fighters is not something that can be applied to an F-16.
The modern engines on both the LCA MK2 and Gripen NG are US made. There is absolutely no reason to believe that GE cannot re-do the entire F-16 propulsion program to incorporate modern technologies at each and every stage. Pratt can do the same. Similarly, 5th gen engine programs focused on larger more powerful engines. There is absolutely no technical roadblock to create 5th generation engines for 4th generation programs. There is however the little thing on need. The major driver of F-16 development has absolutely no such need.

RCS reduction on 4th generation or 4.5 generation designs is also something that is useful to one and not so useful to another. A notional USAF or IDF Gripen E would never fly clean or with recessed weapons. That pegs the RCS of the E gripen to similar levels of a loaded SUFA or blk 50/52..This is why the F-35 has the fuel and payload requirements that it does and why the USN has shown no interest towards the enclosed weapon pods for the F-18E/F/G fleet that boeing has been marketing to international customers, that may wish to use it as that load put with internal weapons may be useful to them. Similarly the USAF is not interested in silent eagle upgrades to its Beagles other than the APG-82 radar and the IRST21..
Likewise with modern avionics and all the other gizmos that were developed since the introduction of the F-16
And most of those GIZMOS you speak off are already flying on the F-16's including the latest targeting pods, 2 AESA radars (and a third one coming very soon), a capable active Electronic warfare suite, IRST and IR MAWS (In addition to RF and UV based MAWS), latest decoys and what not.
It's been upgraded to its limits already, and metal fatigue means it can't be kept flying with upgrades.


Capability growth is a challenge and will be. This is the only valid point in your argument and something that I have made as well. But the other point that claims that it can't be kept flying with upgrades..Well it is. It got a lot of things some 4.5 generation birds won't get till the end of this decade...
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lots of details above, but I did not understand why you bought some X plane and F 16 combine with USAF eco system to beat the Gripen E.
What does it prove. :roll:
Yes the latest F 16 is fitted with lots of gizmos but then US is moving to F 35 for obvious reasons and world over F 16 does not stand a chance against say a Gripen E in export competition [forget geo-politics, if IAF had to choose between Gripen E and F-16 I do you think it would have gone for F 16 . If yes , then I would definitely be curious to know why]
Rafale deal probably should ensure that if and when required IAF will have complete independence in upgrading the fighter (unable to find the link now)
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by brar_w »

Lots of details above, but I did not understand why you bought some X plane and F 16 combine with USAF eco system to beat the Gripen E
It shows the limitations on upgraded 4th and 4.5 generation aircraft when it comes to mission requirements. A USN procurement of the SEA gripen won't get them a super cruising modern 4.5 generation fighter. The GripenE is no substitute for an air force that wants a larger platform that provides the flexibility. They'll throw tanks on it, possibly CFT's, load it with the weapons it needs to do what they do everyday and much of that advantage will fade away. Similarly if the IDF decides to ditch the SUFA in favor of the Gripen E they won't be super cruising much and would load the GripenE with a similar load to their current SUFA's. Similarly an air-force that is evaluating a set capability does so after putting on the requirement glasses. When an air force evaluates the GripenC with the Typhoon or the F-18E/F it has to be clear on what it wants. The weight class and the performance that has driven all 3 of these designs means that its utmost important to judge on the capability that one wishes to have.

The X plane comparison was for one simple reason - Designs grow according to mission requirements of the customer that is funding the capability growth. The drivers of the F-16 program was its mud-moving capability and that was the aspect that sucked 100% of its modernization funding and R&D. Had the requirements required the F-16 to be a capable balanced Multi role fighter that was to be in frontline service in till the 2050's (such as the Gripen E/NG) the capability added to the aircraft would have been closer to what had been tested through its various R&D and S&T efforts over the years. The design could easily have been modified to incorporate most of the capabilities of the Gripen E had the developing air-force emphasized on those capabilities and developed and fielded a few thousand new builds. The F-16 could be developed to have a new wing, to have modest super cruise with a modest payload, have better range, have impressive Low Speed High AOA maneuverability through the 2 3D TVC modifications that were developed by GE and P&W, yet that was not the capability that the developing service wanted to spend money on. So to say the GRIPEN E is inherently better on account of being a newer bird is only partially true. Its not a 5th generation aircraft with capability that cannot be added to older 4th generation designs (Capabilities such as all aspect stealth, internal weapon bays and avionics growth) yet many of the things it will be getting around the turn of the decade are already on the F-16 and much of the performance advantage it brings is limited by mission requirements of the operator and also something the F-16 ( Or Mig-29, Su-30, LCA family etc) could be grown to achieve if those driving its development were so inclined.
Last edited by brar_w on 11 Aug 2014 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^^^^
So the basic premise seems to be that IAF could go for upgrade of LCA in 2040 with less problem than say the Rafale with India at that time .
Right ?
With the TOT promised with Rafale and the mention of complete upgrade independence in the future, I am curious to know the background behind this assumption [of upgrade dependency for Rafale].
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_26622 »

Wow...discussion is now covering Rafale, Eurofighter, F-18, F-16, Mig-35. Su-30 MKI AND Mig-21, Hawk, (we missed Pilatus). 4.5 gen fighters seem to have become just a platform with gizmos been the differentiator (AESA,....)

Trying to simplify things a bit here - IAF is flying a 'kichidi' of fighters today and spends tons on just keeping these in flying condition. Lower availability is going to be an obvious outcome. If we can just rationalize on a couple types, then numbers can be easily augmented.

IAF 'want' of 60 squadrons is going to be a head on collision with need to field MKI, MMRCA, LCA, PAKFA, FGFA - 1* low end 4.5 gen + 2* 4.5 gen high end + 2* 5th Gen . Each of them is a 20 billion $ acquisition (60 billion lifetime) to even reach 40 squadron strength. Not even counting M2000, MIG-29, venerable Jaguar, Mig-27 and what not that we have today and keep upgrading. We are already paying top dollars to keep obsolete stuff flying, so let's not do this in future.

Some questions to consider 'after taking a step back' -


1. Is MMRCA relevant when it will be entering service within 5 years of PAKFA, and costing same ? Very likely No

2. Are any of the MMRCA competitors even a match for MKI ? I will bet on MKI.

3. Is it worth fielding 5 fighters types @ 40 squadrons or 3 fighter types @ 60 squadrons ? Latter is better choice when facing off China.

MMRCA made sense 15 years ago, not anymore. We are just burning too much bandwidth (and $$$) on this.
Last edited by member_26622 on 11 Aug 2014 21:34, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by brar_w »

So the basic premise seems to be that IAF could go for upgrade of LCA in 2040 with less problem than say the Rafale with India at that time .
Right ?
That would be a very strong argument.
With the TOT promised with Rafale and the mention of complete upgrade independence in the future, I am curious to know the background behind this assumption [of upgrade dependency for Rafale]
So the french would not be required at all for Rafale upgrade and additions? A Super-30 like upgrade that involves all concerned parties will not happen? I don't think that the entire rafale path would be done by the IAF and industry without any sort of involvement from the french. Whats the roadmap for integration of home grown weapons on the Rafale? Who will be integrating these weapons? If this is the case then we probably won't need many MICA's or meteors..We can rapidly integrate all indigenous weapons currently in the pipeline and plan for a smooth integration of future weapons..Somehow i do not believe this is going to be as smooth as it would be with the LCA..
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Niranjan »

India-France Cooperation: Towards Enhanced Bilateral Partnership
The recent visit of French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius to India may not have resulted in clinching of the Rafale jet deal which is being negotiated since January 2012 but it surely is an important step in enhanced bilateral partnership between the two countries. If the agreement materialises in the future the induction of Rafale fighter jets is expected to bolster the ‘air dominance’ doctrine of the Indian Air Force. The deal involves technology-sharing and the production of most of the planes in India. The agreement will further help cash-strapped France which is suffering owing to diminution of the defence budget in Europe.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:The J31 is quite a joke...They cannot make their own engine properly, they still buy russian jet and we are suppose to believe the J31 is a silver bullet ?
Where does it say that having a domestic powerplant is a prerequisite to developing an aircraft? (That would make the Gripen a 'joke' as well.) Its driven by a (relatively) reliable fourth gen powerplant which is good enough. The J-20 will probably receive the new Russian 117 engine (eventually maybe even the under-development fifth gen engine).
For the naive, they see a blended fuselage and suddenly it is "invincivle" and it is automatically associated with lattest technologies when it is actually an empty hull that will not reach its potential before years. And even then nothing prove it will be able to be as conpetitive some want to believe.
A. Nobody said anything about 'invincible'.

B. 2012-2025. That's 13 years. Most people would agree that it qualified as [many] years.
The ToT associated with the rafale covers every technology used in a high end 5th gen jet unlike chineese Wannabes.
Every technology except for the little matter of VLO capability. For which presumably India would have to buy the Neuron (or derivative thereof).

'Chinese wannabes'? And how closely have you been following Chinese military R&D? The first Chinese fighter AESA was delivered to the PLAAF last year. They've developed core competencies in every spectrum of fighter jet development except for propulsion, and they're well on their way to getting there on the last count. Yes they're not at par with the Western Europe yet, but given how far they've come in just one decade and the amount of money they're investing in R&D, I'd rather not bet on your prediction of where they'll be in 2025.
And the rafale india is getting is based on the F3R standard which is still in development (GaN spectra etc...) so it can hardly be callled obsolete
1. The relevant part of the F3R standard begins and ends with the SPECTRA. The PDL-NG performance at best only be equal to the Sniper XR/Litening G4.
2. This purported 'edge over rivals for the next 30-40 years' is utter bunkum. That doesn't mean that its obsolete and no one's calling it that.

Fact remains - it doesn't deliver any transformational capability and is too expensive to be acquired in large numbers (even for France apparently).
Last edited by Viv S on 11 Aug 2014 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Austin »

Dhananjay wrote:
Would be nice to have next lot with conformal tanks and more powerful engines:
Image
CFT and more Powerful engine is something we would definately see in its upgrade during next 40 years.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

With a modern cockpit, multi sensor fusion with latest generation sensor technology, cutting edge EW and a modern weapon package it will be a transformational step for the IAF. Just look at the vintage SU 30 mki cockpit which is not even HOTAS and the workload it requires to implement even basic tactics with pilots often overwhelmed by information (garuda feedback published in A&Cosmos).

The ToT associated with the rafale delivers everything you can find on the F35 and even more in some key areas (GaN). As for the VLO, if it is mandatory for IAF why couldnt Dassault share its exerience gained on the Neuron ? Dassault could provide the know how for all technologies which could pave the way for the AMCA in a more distant furure.

As for Chinese you nor me know precisely what the J20 and J31 are capable of. However they are still planning to invest on Russisn jets despite all the J-X series which does not bode well in their confidence of getting their own competitive jet
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:CFT and more Powerful engine is something we would definately see in its upgrade during next 40 years.
CFTs were integrated and flighttested as far back as 2001, though they never ordered by the French military.

Plans for a 90kN M88-3 were shelved a long time ago in favour of the more fuel efficient M88-2-E4 variant. Though there was some talk of modifying the M88s with TVC, its not feasible for the AdlA or MN to altogether re-engine their Rafales. India can still get an uprated M88 but it'll have to independently fund its development.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:With a modern cockpit, multi sensor fusion with latest generation sensor technology, cutting edge EW and a modern weapon package it will be a transformational step for the IAF. Just look at the vintage SU 30 mki cockpit which is not even HOTAS and the workload it requires to implement even basic tactics with pilots often overwhelmed by information (garuda feedback published in A&Cosmos).
Are you aware of what the Su-30MKI will look like after the Super-30 upgrade? Or about its sensor/munitions complement? (AESA, Litening G4, OLS-35/50, Spice, BrahMos, BrahMos-M, Python 5 and possibly the Meteor & HARM.)

Also, its probably fair to say that the J-20/31 will also have a modern cockpit, sensor fusion, 'latest generation sensor technology', 'cutting edge EW' and a 'modern weapon package'.
The ToT associated with the rafale delivers everything you can find on the F35 and even more in some key areas (GaN).
And mere ToT will give India an 'edge over all rivals for 30-40 years'?
As for the VLO, if it is mandatory for IAF why couldnt Dassault share its exerience gained on the Neuron ? Dassault could provide the know how for all technologies which could pave the way for the AMCA in a more distant furure.


Safran wasn't willing to transfer core engine technology for the Kaveri project, what makes you so sure that the Neuron technology is available for sale?
As for Chinese you nor me know precisely what the J20 and J31 are capable of.
We know that the Chinese have introduced a degree of sensor fusion, AESA as well as RCS improvements on the J-10. They'll refine those areas further with the J-10C as well as improve EW capability. The J-20 & J-31 will consequently include all of that on a VLO platform.
However they are still planning to invest on Russisn jets despite all the J-X series which does not bode well in their confidence of getting their own competitive jet
What they want is to make the 117S available for export, they have no interest in the Su-35S itself, which is why the deal has been stuck in limbo for so long. Fortunately for them, Russian relations with the West have nosedived and Russia is tilting sharply towards China to compensate. The 117S/117 will probably become easier to obtain in the days to come.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_23694 »

Viv S wrote:Russian relations with the West have nosedived and Russia is tilting sharply towards China to compensate
Sir, This is one statement of your's of which i am very much convinced and this is something for which India should be concerned about.
There is much less likelihood of any discrimination by Russia vis-a-vis India and China in terms of defence tech support and probably a more bend towards China (considering its world status right now to counter the West).
In such a geopolitical scenario how things evolve w.r.t Super 30 and FGFA in the future is something to be closely watch.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Niranjan »

Dassault could provide the know how for all technologies which could pave the way for the AMCA in a more distant furure.
Any idea - details - of what these may be?

There is a popular belief that claims the same. ToT for certain do not provide such techs, they go some way to help a tech backward country like India, but will not completely fill any gaps.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Manish_Sharma »

arthuro wrote:With a modern cockpit, multi sensor fusion with latest generation sensor technology, cutting edge EW and a modern weapon package it will be a transformational step for the IAF. Just look at the vintage SU 30 mki cockpit which is not even HOTAS and the workload it requires to implement even basic tactics with pilots often overwhelmed by information (garuda feedback published in A&Cosmos).
I think its very true, during 2011 delhi BRF meet Rohitvats had also made similar points regarding too much workload for pilots in mki.

That makes sense 'cause we can see the reason why IAF has been insisting on twin seater FGFA instead of one seater PAK FA, as they have little faith in sukhoi being able to up the performance and at the same time bring down the pilot workload.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Philip »

The SU-35S is on stream.Why can't the IAF evaluate that,as it supposedly is being used to validate some FGFA tech.

The Raffy issue is a simple one.No dispute about its capability.But its cost.Prohibitive,even the M-2000 upgrade cost was a scandal,For that price one would get a brand new MIG-29K plus $10M for vintage champagne and caviar! There is no guarantee that once the Raffy is inducted costs will again skyrocket in the decades ahead.There are perhaps just 3 choices/options for the IAF:

1.Seal the deal.Steal the money required from the taxpayer.Problems with this,get screwed by the electorate in the future.Little money will be left for the IAF's other programmes as well as critical needs for the IA and IN.

2.Scrap the deal,buy more MKIs/SU-34/35s whatever for the strike role and MIG-29/35s for numbers as replacements fro the hundreds of MIGs being pensioned off.Accelerate LCA development of MK-2 and increased production using the "whip",use the saved money for other vital programmes/acquisitions,like the FGFA JV.

3.A compromise.Some amount of Rafales to be acquired,down from the 126 mark,no heavy TOT,and make up numbers as mentioned in option 2.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Su 35s and 30s are ok to do super-manuevering but pilot workload is too much when it comes to real war. Also the fuel sipping engines of Rafale will save a big chunk of fuel bills for IAF over next 40 years compared to Rambhas.

Also its due to IAF's experience of too much pilot workload that they insist up two seaters whether mki or PAK FA. They know russkies can't reduce the pilot workload as westerners.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Indranil »

Philip sir,

The IAF was very categorical in trying to exclude the Su-30s in the MMRCA. The medium in "MMRCA" was explicitly for this reason. It is actually very simple to understand. It is very expensive to maintain a whole airforce of heavy fighters. There is no iota of doubt in that.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Philip »

Yes,there was a VAYU article on the IAF's predilection for a "heavy" force oftwin-engined aircraft.However,with the SU-35,the workload has been considerably eased. The Q is what capability does the IAF want ? Or rather what will suffice for it? From the first requirements of the MMRCA,all that was wanted was upgraded M-2000s.It is when the IAF saw the "menu" available in the form of Efs,Raffys,etc.,that they salivated and evaluated all the aircraft choosing what they felt was the best of the best,a playoff between the two most expensive birds. It would've been fine to award a fine trophy for the contest and then choose what one could afford ! But as the Outlook piece says,it is a decision that is now a headache for the new govt. One would've expected the new dispensation to actually take a review of such major key projects such as this. They have huge implications for the economy and fighting capability of the services.

Here's an old piece on the single-seat SU-35.
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/08/08/gre ... 37289.html
Scatter, it’s the Super Flanker
June 26, 2013 Rakesh Krishnan Simha
The Su-35 is proving to be the latest scare word for Western air forces. Dubbed the UFO for its outstanding manoeuvrability, the Super Flanker is forcing America’s newest fighter, the F-35, to take evasive action.
The Su-35 is clearly designed to take on stealth aircraft. Source: Sukhoi.org

Is the F-35 – described by the American military as the world’s most stealthy and most sophisticated fighter – a sitting duck for the Su-35 Super Flanker? Some believe that’s exactly right.

In July 2008 in a simulated dogfight involving an attack by Russia’s Su-35 against a mixed fleet of American F-22 stealth interceptors, F/A-18 Super Hornets and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35 was “clubbed like baby seals” by the Super Flanker.

The war game conducted at the US Air Force’s Hickam airbase in Hawaii, was witnessed by at least four Australian air force personnel and a member of Australia’s military espionage agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation.

Australian Member of Parliament Dennis Jensen says a third party with knowledge of the final classified test results had told him the F-35 was comprehensively beaten in the highly classified simulation.

UFO over Paris

Sukhoi describes the Su-35 as a 4++ generation aircraft with some fifth generation – or stealth – characteristics. Its ability to shoot down stealth aircraft owes a lot to its super manoeuvrability. This is not something to be sneezed at as the Sukhois are now changing the rules of air combat, leaving Western air forces stuck with very expensive aircraft that could turn out to be clay pigeons.
пустым не оставлять!!

Sukhoi Su-35S fighter performs breathtaking stunt at Paris Air Show (video)

Its engines enable the Su-35 to perform all kinds of stunts, including Pugachev’s Cobra, the Frolov Chakra, the Dead Leaf, and the unprecedented Pancake, which is a horizontal 360-degree made turn without losing speed.

Stealth vs agility

Western analysts usually dismiss such jaw dropping moves, saying that when it comes to actual combat, stealth will carry the day, any day. Predictably, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures the F-35, parrots the same line.

Northrop Grumman’s DAS business development leader, Pete Bartos – who was part of the initial US Air Force JSF requirements team – says stealth was basic to the F-35 design and the reason that it did not need manoeuvrability. Rather than entering a turning fight at the merge, the F-35 barrels through and takes an over-the-shoulder defensive shot. As a Northrop Grumman video puts it “manoeuvring is irrelevant”

The edge

That’s missing the point entirely. According to Defense Industry Daily, “Stealth is very useful, but it isn't Harry Potter's invisibility cloak. These kinds of extreme claims aren't supportable. Qualification and restraint are less likely to insult the audience's intelligence.”


Indeed, while the United States – and its increasingly unconvinced and edgy allies – is stuck on stealth, the theory of air combat has been continuously evolving. “In the 1940s and 1950s, the first priority was height, then speed, then manoeuvre and then firepower,” Sergey Bogdan, Sukhoi’s chief test pilot, told Aviation Week. “Then with the third and fourth generation, it was speed, then height and then manoeuvre. Supermanoeuvrability adds to this. It’s the knife in the soldier's pocket.”

Don’t argue against the laws of physics

Bill Sweetman, a noted weapons expert, says the Su-35’s Paris demonstrations will be followed by a chorus of the usual suspects noting that “air show manoeuvres” don't equate to air combat capability.
Related:

Why Australia should scratch the F-35 and fly Sukhois
Sukhois shift the balance of power in the Asia-Pacific
Paris Air Show brings in bonanza for Russian manufacturers

“However, flight demonstrations are not aerobatic tricks,” he explains. “Unpredictable flight paths challenge the guidance algorithms of any missile system and rapid nose-pointing can permit a short-range missile launch with a greater kill probability.”

Dogfight duke

Where the F-35’s survival depends entirely on stealth – which leaves it vulnerable in a knife fight – the Su-35 is an all-round fighter packing lethal weaponry, extended range and of course legendary super manoeuvrability, which is the defining characteristic of the Flanker family.

In fact, shortly after wowing the crowds in Paris with the Su-35’s gravity defying stunts, Bogdan repeated a claim made in 1989 when the first Flanker performed the cobra manoeuvre. “The rapid change in velocity can cause a Doppler fire-control radar to break lock. The manoeuvre is more useful on the Su-35S because the pilot can fly the aircraft out in any direction,” he told Aviation Week.
пустым не оставлять!!

F-35B: Born in the USSR

According to Sweetman, the tactical advantage of this kind of manoeuvring mostly stems from the fact that any air to air missile has a predictive element. It's aiming where it thinks the target is going to be. That means the missile has to predict the aircraft’s flight path.

This is where the Su-35 excels. “If the aircraft is unpredictable, if it is capable of changing its flight path very suddenly and very dramatically, and if it is capable of doing this under control then it's much harder for the missile to do that,” says Sweetman. What it does is effectively reduce the missile’s range.

The F-35 pilot can take a shot but most likely it's going to miss. He therefore has to come closer, thereby not only revealing his location (assuming the Super Flanker's massive radars haven't painted him already) but also coming within range of the Super Flanker's amazing inventory of air to air missiles. (Russia’s Vympel holds the world record for the longest BVR – beyond visual range – kill at an astounding 400 km)

Go ahead, take that shot, make my day

Sweetman say the Su-35 is clearly designed to take on stealth aircraft. The American theory of stealth combat rests on “First look, first shot, first kill”. With the Super Flanker, the Russians have upended that grandiose theory. The F-35 may still have the first look – that is, it may detect the Su-35 first – but it has to come closer to take that ominous shot. That’s when the Super Flanker and the F-35 can both see each other. “The advantage of stealth has been markedly reduced,” says Sweetman.
пустым не оставлять!!

Su-35S (video)

At that point, the Super Flanker, with its preternatural ability to fly in slow motion or engage in bursts of supersonic speed, becomes the hunter. With its maximum speed of Mach 2.5, a high altitude range of 3600 km and 12 Vympel missiles, it is more than a handful for an F-35 pilot with a range of just 2222 km and a top speed of Mach 1.6 which almost seems like a death wish.

Indeed, where the F-35 offers extravagant technologies that seem completely irrelevant to the needs of most air forces, the Super Flanker offers performance on a par with 5th generation fighters.

What’s even scarier from the Western air forces’ point of view is their future stealth fighter is vulnerable today before they have even had a look at the F-35. And sometime around 2020 Sukhoi’s PAK-FA stealth fighter comes into service.

That’s time enough for a lot of Western fighter jocks to find new careers.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by shaun »

^^^
why people forget , its not gonna be 1 to 1 ! and what can su-35 do that su-30 can not ?


this mmrca drama have been far stretched , there should be quick decision to end these speculations .
Last edited by shaun on 12 Aug 2014 12:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:The SU-35S is on stream.Why can't the IAF evaluate that,as it supposedly is being used to validate some FGFA tech.
Why do you think the Russians are still buying Su-30SMs when they have the Su-35S available?
2.Scrap the deal,buy more MKIs/SU-34/35s whatever for the strike role and MIG-29/35s for numbers as replacements fro the hundreds of MIGs being pensioned off.Accelerate LCA development of MK-2 and increased production using the "whip",use the saved money for other vital programmes/acquisitions,like the FGFA JV.
The Su-34 & Su-35 offer very little value over an upgraded Su-30MKI in the regional context. The Su-30MKI still retains the advantages of western avionics and a wider munitions complement.

Not to mention the Tejas Mk1 easily beats the MiG-29M when it comes to value for money.
3.A compromise.Some amount of Rafales to be acquired,down from the 126 mark,no heavy TOT,and make up numbers as mentioned in option 2.
Net capability added is not worth adopting the logistical headache of an entirely new type of aircraft.
Philip wrote:Yes,there was a VAYU article on the IAF's predilection for a "heavy" force oftwin-engined aircraft.However,with the SU-35,the workload has been considerably eased. The Q is what capability does the IAF want ? Or rather what will suffice for it?
That's what the Super 30 upgrade is for.
Here's an old piece on the single-seat SU-35.
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/08/08/gre ... 37289.html
Scatter, it’s the Super Flanker
June 26, 2013 Rakesh Krishnan Simha
The Su-35 is proving to be the latest scare word for Western air forces. Dubbed the UFO for its outstanding manoeuvrability, the Super Flanker is forcing America’s newest fighter, the F-35, to take evasive action.
The Su-35 is clearly designed to take on stealth aircraft. Source: Sukhoi.org

Sukhoi describes the Su-35 as a 4++ generation aircraft with some fifth generation – or stealth – characteristics. Its ability to shoot down stealth aircraft owes a lot to its super manoeuvrability. This is not something to be sneezed at as the Sukhois are now changing the rules of air combat, leaving Western air forces stuck with very expensive aircraft that could turn out to be clay pigeons.
Typical Indrus article. Here's a 'rebuttal' from a Russian Air Force chief.

The Su-35S avionics and integrated defence system is inferior to “American fighters of the same type”. - Gen Alexander Zelin
In fact, shortly after wowing the crowds in Paris with the Su-35’s gravity defying stunts, Bogdan repeated a claim made in 1989 when the first Flanker performed the cobra manoeuvre. “The rapid change in velocity can cause a Doppler fire-control radar to break lock. The manoeuvre is more useful on the Su-35S because the pilot can fly the aircraft out in any direction,” he told Aviation Week.
Good luck with the doppler notch against an ESA.
Sweetman say the Su-35 is clearly designed to take on stealth aircraft. The American theory of stealth combat rests on “First look, first shot, first kill”. With the Super Flanker, the Russians have upended that grandiose theory. The F-35 may still have the first look – that is, it may detect the Su-35 first – but it has to come closer to take that ominous shot. That’s when the Super Flanker and the F-35 can both see each other. “The advantage of stealth has been markedly reduced,” says Sweetman.
Poor Mr Sweetman's had a bad year with most of his dire predictions being utterly upended. Against the Su-35, the F-35 will always see first, always shoot first. WVR, I'd bet on an 80G pulling Aim-9X Blk3 cued by the EODAS against any supermaneuverable fighter.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

I had a smile when Viv said Dassault would be unlikely to transfer ToT on VLO. Might be true or not who knows ? But do you seriously think Lockeed would transfer anything linked to the F35 (including VLO) ? There is not a single chance that the F35 would fit in MRCA requirement (local production, ToT) which would prevent india to develop its own 5th gen jet for decades if purchased on FMS.

As for the super Sukoi, it is highly unlikely it will change the core architecture of the aircraft : Newer radar yes but sensor fusion and sensor integration like the F35 or the rafale very certainly no. As a consequence its philosophy of use will remain unchanged.

Knowing that the IAF has to go for : MRCA, Tejas, Tejas Mk2, M2k, C17, FGFA, AMCA...I wonder what money is going to be left for this Su-30 upgrade...I also have my doubts on the credibility and actual progess on several of the program here above

I believe IAF share this point of view and hence see the MRCA as its top priority. F35, Tejas mk2, AMCA are just wet dreams to replace the MRCA choice.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:I had a smile when Viv said Dassault would be unlikely to transfer ToT on VLO. Might be true or not who knows ? But do you seriously think Lockeed would transfer anything linked to the F35 (including VLO) ? There is not a single chance that the F35 would fit in MRCA requirement (local production, ToT) which would prevent india to develop its own 5th gen jet for decades if purchased on FMS.
If you go back through the thread you'll realise I've said multiple times that the MMRCA needs to be scrapped not expanded to include the F-35. We can't afford 126 F-35s with ToT, licensing, local production etc.

A F-35 acquisition, if any, needs to be evaluated independently. Two or three squadrons earmarked for ELINT, EW, recce, DEAD, anti-AWACS, deep strike etc. In other words, to operate 'behind-enemy-lines'. For the general workhorse missions, the Super-30 and Tejas Mk1/Mk2 will suffice.

As it happens, India is paying extra for ToT and licensing. If the objective to give a boost to domestic capabilities, the same amount invested directly in domestic R&D will yield far greater benefits than handing it over to Dassault in exchange for blueprints.

The only real advantage of ToT is economic. It allows Indian firms to produce a greater proportion of the aircraft domestically (ToT is now apparently also being counted towards the offset requirement.) For the record, LM can match the economic rupee-for-rupee through genuine offsets i.e components built in India for the worldwide fleet. Rather than components built for a 50-60 aircraft order (SKD/CKDs subtracted) and then marked up by 500% to meet quotas.

To sum up - Yes, the Rafale comes with ToT. No, its still not worth blowing $20bn+ ($22bn?) on 126 fighters.
Knowing that the IAF has to go for : MRCA, Tejas, Tejas Mk2, M2k, C17, FGFA, AMCA...I wonder what money is going to be left for this Su-30 upgrade...I also have my doubts on the credibility and actual progess on several of the program here above
Remove the MMRCA from ^ statement and they'll be more than enough money left for 'this Su-30 upgrade'.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by arthuro »

Altough I do not share your opinion of what should IAF do, ok it makes sense on a forum discussion. But obviously IAF and Indian MoD are not on the same line as you are regarding those different option.

However I disagree with the ToT being just economic...There is a strategic thinking as well: Building the rafale and mastering its technology will raise the standard of Indian aeronautic industry: Suppliers will have to adapt and adopt latests standard of manufacturing. It is the whole network of industries involved and the whole supply chain that will recieve a boost. I believe the rafale can be transformational as well for the indian aeronautic industry forcing and accelerating modernization. I am deeply convinced this is a very strong MMRCA rational from Indian authorities which are probably quite disapointed by HAL now.

You say invest directly on R&D but I believe That Indian authorities are not so confident on the possible yield looking at HAL achievement so far...
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:Altough I do not share your opinion of what should IAF do, ok it makes sense on a forum discussion. But obviously IAF and Indian MoD are not on the same line as you are regarding those different option.
The RFI for the MMRCA was issued in 2001 and then reissued in 2004. The RFP was issued in 2007. Its now nearing 2015. The idea that this was the plan all along is a hard sell.

Given where we are and what the program is now costing, the MoF and PMO may not be on the same page as you are.
However I disagree with the ToT being just economic...There is a strategic thinking as well: Building the rafale and mastering its technology will raise the standard of Indian aeronautic industry: Suppliers will have to adapt and adopt latests standard of manufacturing. It is the whole network of industries involved and the whole supply chain that will recieve a boost. I believe the rafale can be transformational as well for the indian aeronautic industry forcing and accelerating modernization.
'Transformational' to what end? These abstract concepts not going to help the Su-30 or the Tejas program. The AMCA is long way into the future.

An eco-system of suppliers and subcontractors already exists to support existing production programs. As long as it gets the job done, which it does, that $20 billion is better spent elsewhere. A few billion directly injected to improve the supply chain will do a lot more to improve the system than license building Rafale components.
I am deeply convinced this is a very strong MMRCA rational from Indian authorities which are probably quite disapointed by HAL now.
Before being deeply convinced I suggest, you understand HAL's role as a production agency and not confuse with R&D. Think Sukhoi & IAPO/KnAAPO if you're still confused.

Unless you're referring to HAL's (extremely rewarding) helicopter program, wherein both design & production are HAL's responsibility.
You say invest directly on R&D but I believe That Indian authorities are not so confident on the possible yield looking at HAL achievement so far...
108 out of the 126 Rafales are to be delivered by HAL. And since in your opinion HAL's achievement so far is [...], you'd agree that the MMRCA needs immediate scrapping, right? :mrgreen:
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