Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[NRao]

Can India use an F 35 for nuclear strike with complete freedom

Moot point.

Even the US cannot use the F-35 for a nuclear strike!!!! So, why bring it up?

But the question does raise another: Was the MMRCA selection meant to have a nuclear strike capability or is this some academic question being posed?

[member_23694]

Even the US cannot use the F-35 for a nuclear strike!!!! So, why bring it up?

Sir how does it matter for India if US will not use F 35 for nuclear strike and they have B 2 for that , but the Rafale is capable for nuclear strike and from past experience IAF will have complete freedom to load the Rafale with any such weapons of its choice.

Further

Was the MMRCA selection meant to have a nuclear strike capability or is this some academic question being posed?

Open source suggest that IAF's Mirage 2000 is primary delivery aircraft for nuclear strike if at all needed. France is comfortable with it. Will US be comfortable if a plane provided by it to India is modified for some different usage.
http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory. ... ment.shtml

To their consternation the air force found the bomb pods made by ARDE were just too heavy for the Jaguar. At take-off the aircraft’s ground clearance with the bomb slung to its belly was just two inches which made it unsafe. By late 1986, even as the Brasstacks raged, the Jaguar was rejected. The three pilots selected for the job were sent back. Search then began for new aircraft. The team homed in on the Mirage 2000 purchased from France a few years earlier and work began on preparing the aircraft as India’s prime delivery system.

My understanding is services will never be ready for anything which has the potential of being an arm twisting tool. F 35 will never be followed with ANY TOT. So suppose we buy 60-100 off the shelf F 35 at a lower price with lots of pics of this historical deal all across and 5 years down the line there is no spare parts to support. Do we want a situation of F 16 with Pakistan.
Transactional relationship does not work in strategic deals

[member_23694]

Even if France allows, which seems to be the very reason to bring up this topic, India will have to design nukes for that plane. Cost.

if we Leave the cost aside then which plane gives us the freedom to do so. Mirage earlier and probably now have given us the Freedom and even Rafale will continue to do so. F 35 will never give us this freedom and neither any TOT even if we buy 200 such planes off the shelf .

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... sault.html
Year 2008

Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''

Earlier statements from manufacturers of AESA radars has been categorical about the fact that transfer of source code is not on the cards. Since source code enables programming of the radar, what this implies is that the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

''This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,'' Chabriol informed journalists.

"This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,'' Chabriol said.

Year 2014
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/r ... 164125.ece

“India is an independent country, wants equipment of the highest quality, (including) transfer of technology so that it can produce these on Indian soil. The proposal from Rafale meets all these legitimate demands,” the Minister observed.Sources said, if inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Rafale jets, in conjunction with the multi-role Su-30 aircraft and the Mirage air superiority fighters, would substantially bolster the force’s doctrine of “air dominance”.

At least there is consistency from the start

[NRao]

how does it matter for India if US will not use F 35 for nuclear strike

* The F-35, currently, is not wired for nukes. There is an ongoing debate as to whether to spend the (100s of) millions (yeah) on wiring the F-35 for such a purpose or to realign the funds towards the Long range bomber the US is pursuing
* IF the decision is made to make the F-35 nuclear capable, then the US needs to make nukes for this plane. This too adds to the cost.

So, from an Indian PoV, it makes no sense what so ever on both counts. The cost of a nuclear capable F-35 in the Indian context, would be rather steep.

However, I am not sure what the calculus is WRT the Rafale. For sure they would need to be wired too. Not the biggest of deals - they already are, but then there is the extra cost. Then what about nukes? Will the Indian nukes do? Dunno.

France is comfortable with it

True. However, France will sell pretty much anything to anyone - India, China, Russia, anyone who has the funds.

However, India does have the M2K (as you mention), the Jags, if I am not mistake and the SF - I thought - had requested 40 MKIs - cannot recall what happened to that (suspect they got turned down).

if we Leave the cost aside then which plane gives us the freedom to do so. Mirage earlier and probably now have given us the Freedom and even Rafale will continue to do so.

I think we are wading into another thread here, but ................. The question I would have is does India need more than what India has? There should be enough deterrence for the time being - I would think (for the deterrence thread). To me this is a topic regarding deterrence and not freedom. I think India has the requisite deterrence. (I have been arguing that for some 15 years now.)

F 35 will never give us this freedom and neither any TOT even if we buy 200 such planes off the shelf

Well, India will get a F-35 line of her own. However, not all parts would be manufactured in India - none are in any country.

At least there is consistency from the start

program what as they wish? The AESA that France will provide? Big deal. It looks good because where India stands today - India has precious little to lean on, so what the Rafale ToT provides obviously will look like a giant leap and it is - but only relative to where India is today. But, in relation to where France itself has already moved? Even with the ToT France has provided, India will be at the very least a step (or more behind). Have no illusions about that. And, after you are done with this Rafale ToT, you will go back to France for the next gen technologies. France will neither provide the latest, nor will permit to apply their technologies for India to develop the next gen - just not possible. See what Russia has done. It is business - do not blame those nations.

IF India realllllllly wants to be free, there is no alternative to going it alone. Seed a 100 universities, expecting 95-98 of them to fail. It is OK. It is the 2 that succeed that matter, of which one will make something dynamite. I recall someone from the LCA team, visiting the Air Force Museum in Dayton, OH, happen to write that the museum is littered with failures.

The problem is elsewhere. (It seems to me that Mr. Modi will solve it - give him some time. He is not kidding about making stuff in India - IMHO, of course.)

Also, on a side note, let us see what happens on Modi's trip to the US.

[Karan M]

All this Rafale deal will increase Indian aeronautics industry via TOT is a fond hope at best, even as its supported by Shri Matheeswaran etc who spare no stone to throw at local industry, whilst hoping for foreign vendors to turn a new leaf.
Did Scorpene help the Arihant? Was the formers "TOT" without hassles and provided on time?
Was the Mirage 2000 spares & support without any hitches, take a look at the price issues there. What earth shattering stuff exactly did the Mirage 2000 contribute to Indian industry even with its overhaul etc being done at HAL?
At the end of the day, the Rafale et al, will provide diddly squat to local industry directly from TOT (which will likely be delayed and more kits imported to "speed up deliveries") as versus offsets, which if implemented have a better chance of leveraging some best practises for local industry, private players included. Qn is whether $20Bn of direct spend is the best way to achieve this effect. I rather suspect all the private players would rather a line of credit of even $1Bn be opened up for their efforts to meet Indian requirements.
The FGFA at least is nominally codevelopment.

The whole issue boils down to price. At $10Bn, it was ok, now, at twice that, in actual dollars, irrespective of the reasons why (inflation, rupee depreciation), it still translates to a huge hit on the Indian budget which is in Rupees. Spend $10 Bn on improving the MKI fleet, and boosting the FGFA program & Tejas. These are tangible, cheaper efforts which will result in equivalent outcomes than splurging on yet another aircraft to add to our menagerie.

[Viv S]

As someone said what IAF pilot told them, some time back that its ok that 1 Su 30 is equal to 6 Mig 21s but 1 Su 30 can be at one place at a time while 6 Mig 21s at 6 places.

Extrapolating from that - 1 Rafale can be at only one place, 6 Tejas can be at 6 places, while also delivering a greater net combat capability than a lone Rafale, especially when linked with force multipliers.

I'm not saying that jsf is more capable than Rafale, on the contrary I see a big advantage of availability, range & payload in Rafale over jsf. While I can see now that how important Rafale is for IAF, while upto sometime back I wasn't sure.

The F-35A is superior to the Rafale in terms of both payload and range. It will also broadly match it terms of operational availability post FOC.

A couple of years back, somebody had posted an article in international aviation thread about how suddenly other US jet's radars could see a particular jsf very clearly. When they checked it was found that part of surface was having 1mm fault and due to that the whole stealth thingy went out of window.

I don't know who posted what, but its utter garbage I assure you. Please refer to the JSF thread. The stealth features are very durable.

Of course canadian's doubt a single engined jsf flying over their vast empty lands isn't a safe bet. So imagining a single engined jsf flying over to cheenland in risky mission is just a fantasy.

How did the Mirage's single engine affect its safety record? Does the F-16 have bad safety record? (Worse than the F-18?)

Also, a RCAF pilot ejecting in the event of engine failure may not survive a landing in waters of the Arctic or the inaccessible north. Tibet while sparsely populated isn't nearly as remote.

This Rafale deal is going to very good for us. 4 billion as you have put for ToT and the jobs for our skilled technicians engineers taking the salary home and pumping back in Bharat against US technicians engineers taking our precious money.

The amount of money retained in the domestic economy has to do with the offset requirement not ToT. And in that respect LM can easily outmatch Dassault.

While as Maitya ji stated that composites etc. on Rafale are generations ahead of Tejas, that's why probably it can carry much more payload than 42% bigger f-18.

The load-bearing elements of the airframe are built of aluminium not polymer composites. And even if that weren't true, fact is the Tejas Mk2 will be in production by the time that composite tech is transferred and absorbed.

Plus other secret deal probably as NRao ji put that french may've proofed our nukes or even ToT.

Not to mention GaA chips and GaN chips foundaries, we'll see what Hindu Baniya has gotten after prolonged negotiations.

Secret deals aside, all public information suggests that the Rafale is proving to be exceptionally bad value for money.

[Viv S]

Heavily-scripted Red Flag exercises are quite similar to the computer simulations which predicted and predict huge exchange ratio advantage for newer fighters. F-15A was predicted to have a 955 to 1 exchange ratio against the Russian MiG-21. F-14s missiles were predicted to have 100% Pk.

Northern Edge 2006 wasn't a computer simulation and Red Flag even less so. It was a full scale training exercise with all missions flown in real-time against front-line F-15s & F-16. 144-0 for the F-22 plus 241-2 for the 'Blue Force' in Alaska. And it was almost as dominant at Red Flag where veteran OpFor pilots found themselves thoroughly frustrated by the challenge of fighting what they couldn't even see. The F-35s lacks the Raptor's supercruise, but brings a better mix of sensors and a considerably superior level of sensor-fusion to the fight.

[member_23694]

http://idrw.org/?p=41841
Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry

Yes, we are in the process of finalizing the draft contract for the deal. And we also expect the Cost Negotiation Committee to submit its report soon,said a senior defence ministry official, who was privy to the developments
It is very difficult to predict any date for signing the contract. But, it should happen in the next few months,the officer said, requesting anonymity

According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates.

[Manish_Sharma]

The amount of money retained in the domestic economy has to do with the offset requirement not ToT. And in that respect LM can easily outmatch Dassault.

Yeah! Just like poor LM couldn't get permission due to logjam in pentagon for help sought in testing of Tejas. For everything LM will have to keep going to pentagon and in the end sunny deol will say "....tareekh par tareekh tareekh par tareekh tareekh par tareekh...."

"mi lord duniya gawaah hai ki Bharat ko lm se taareekh to milli hai par ToT WoT kuchh nahi milla......."

while look at contrast regarding france and dassault:

Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''

Earlier statements from manufacturers of AESA radars has been categorical about the fact that transfer of source code is not on the cards. Since source code enables programming of the radar, what this implies is that the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

''This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,'' Chabriol informed journalists.

"This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,'' Chabriol said.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... sault.html

[Manish_Sharma]

http://idrw.org/?p=41841
Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry

According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates.

Its very casually worded as if asking dassault to correct spelling mistakes in their proposal and send back asap.

[Philip]

Yes, "revise their p[rice estimate,etc.,...".In other words,make us an offer which we can't refuse..price wise.

More and more the MOD needs before the deal is sealed, to step a little back and take a holistic look at the IAF's force structure for the coming decades and the challenges of today and tomorrow,needs to be done.The "Rafale or bust" attitude might very well "bust" the services depleted bank account.Jet-LI is in a unique position in that he is the one who best knows exactly how much we can spend right now,where the money should be spread around,etc.The miserable budget allocation for the IN also needs to be raised asap,aaprtf rom the other hungry mouths,IA,CG,BSF,paras,etc.

[member_20453]

At this point going strictly by the book, its either the Rafale or the EF. I don't question IAF's technical evaluation, indeed Rafale/EF at the moment were most compliant. However, the worst thing they did was to bring in this L-1 business. They should have negotiated with both at the same time, sure the process would have taken a few more months but atleast we would have stiff competition and we would have gained most in terms of price/tech transfer and other aspects.

Looking at the latest, it is again upto Dassault to revise the price, I do not support reducing the numbers, rather its best we order 200 at once, get a drastic further reduction in over-all cost and bite into this bitter pill. Order the aircraft and depend on local weapons to arm them. It would be an utter waste to acquire French weapons for a large fleet at horrendous prices. We'd end up spending 6-8 Billion more on that.

Since deliveries for the Rafale will only begin in 2017, we should speed up Astra Mk-1/2 and Rafale with DRDO should test fire it during the next couple of years even before deliveries begin, Sudharshan LGB and GPS glide bomb kits, Mini Brahmos(by the looks of it would be ready 2017), Nirbhay, the new Anti radiation missile being developed by DRDO should be tested on the 1st series of rafales. We could order more CBU-105 SFW and take the numbers from 500 to over 2000 and then we would have a good aircraft capable of lot of destruction.

This way we can save plenty of mulah. If the deal fails they should cancel the MRCA since its far too late to still invest so much into 4.5 gen aircraft. I think this is make or break time for Dassault since they have been this far in plenty of other nations and failed in the last leg, if they reconsider and lower cost to India, great, go ahead sign the deal and be done with it but if they stall again as always in so many other deals and haggle over price then this deal for rafale should be shelved.

The later in the decade we recieve the Rafale the most obsolete it is as 4.5gen bird, we might as well conder the F-35 (which regardless of what others say, has better rcs, better avionics, over-all sensor fusion, far reduced pilot work load, decent internal weapons load and range) It also comes ready for multiservice use i.e ideal for Carriers (F-35C in time for the INS Vishal commisioning time frame), F-35B for India's eventual 4 LHDs, F-35As for the IAF. Even if we start taking IAF deliveries for the F-35A after FOC in 2019, we can easily have more than a sduadron delivered quickly.

We may not get a lot of TOT, but I am sure an assembly line for the F-35 can easily come up in India (just like it it did in Belgium/Holland/ Turkey etc for the F-16), India could be the hub for F-35 supplies for years to come. Nay sayers ignore the facts, the aircraft is being inducted more and more each year, it is still in testing, FOC is still some time away so any issues right now are basically expected and being handled based on severity and priority.

Also if we do sign an F-35 deal later in the decade, hopefully the economy have revived a bit and we have more budget allocation for the forces, I reckon if we sign the F-35 deal for 250 aircraft i.e 170 F-35 A for IAF, 40 F-35C for the IN and 40 F-35B for LHDs in and around 2016-2017 with first deliveries for 2019-2020 of around 40 aircraft from US with eventual local assembly of the rest in India. I think our private players will gain much more since India would be hub for spares for all of Asia & Middle East. I would guess the whole deal of 250 F-35s with some TOT and local assembly would cost us around 50-60 billion over a life time of around 50 years.

We might as well order 200-250 of these puppies and we'd better better off since all

[Manish_Sharma]

Yes, "revise their p[rice estimate,etc.,...".In other words,make us an offer which we can't refuse..price wise.

More and more the MOD needs before the deal is sealed, to step a little back and take a holistic look at the IAF's force structure for the coming decades and the challenges of today and tomorrow,needs to be done.The "Rafale or bust" attitude might very well "bust" the services depleted bank account.Jet-LI is in a unique position in that he is the one who best knows exactly how much we can spend right now,where the money should be spread around,etc.The miserable budget allocation for the IN also needs to be raised asap,aaprtf rom the other hungry mouths,IA,CG,BSF,paras,etc.

Philip saar, No this money rona-dhona is a myth, a conspiracy of congis. Look at porkis they've been spending 5% of their GDP since independece on their army. How the eff can a nation of 20 crore people keep an army of 5 lakh, plus AF plus navy? While we nation of 1.35 billion with an army of just 1.3 million? We should have by now an army of 3 million atleast. But spending lowest %age of GDP in the world on military what do you expect?

Congis from the beginning have deliberately kept us weak militarily. If you read through this stratpost iaf roundtable thing. The budget hardly touches 1.25% of GDP. This is not the way a country threatened with 2 front war behaves. We need to spend 5% every year at least, only then.........

If Rafale gets ordered now in next few months, then by 2030 we'll have

MKIs = 272
Rafale = 126
FGFA = 144
Total = 542 aircraft
meaning 27 squadrons of heavy + medium

The way they referred to Tejas in discussion, was more on the lines of "....well as for Tejas what to do, its here now we can't escape it....."

as if its a big stone around their neck.

So officially they go for maybe Tejas Mk 1 = 60
Tejas Mk 2 = 140

That'd be 10 more squadrons so it becomes

37 squadron

plus 5 squadrons of m2k + mig 29 (replaced by AMCA later)

plus 5 squadrons of jaguars (replaced by AMCA (replaced by AMCA))

47 squadrons.

Against 100+ squadrons of chi-pork combine, the way mr. putin is going for porkis with Mi-35 helis, who knows he might sell them su-35 too later.

[Philip]

If wishes were...!

One small problem,where is the moolah for 200 Raffys going to come from? We simply don't have it.We will have to close down the IA and IN's requirements! As for the JSF,equally unaffordable and comes with considerable strings attached as far as TOT is concerned,even more than any of its current legacy fighters. Since the technical decision has been made by the IAF,the GOI might relent on the Raffy,not wanting to delay augmenting the IAF's depleting numbers further,but cut down initial numbers as there are many fish to fry,the 3 extra AWACS for just one example. Secondly,it is highly unlikely that the FGFA will be dumped,as the IAF also need a 5th-gen bird in service by 2020 to meet the Chinese threat,and has already gone some distance in the JV.This deal will probably be wrapped up when Putin comes-a-calling in Dec.

The poor sucker is going to be the LCA.I think that from current reports or non-reports and hints of a further
delay in the FOC,there has been much silence for some time,all stakeholders have agreed,or are going to agree that they will go through the charade of developing and producing the LCA,Mk-1 and 2,"in the national interest",but expecting not more than 120 or so to finally see service,whatever built bought,but not expected to play a major role in the IAF's future order of battle. HAL will be delighted to "build the Rafale" at home,as I said earlier,with frequent trips fro its officials to gay Paree to enjoy the fleshpots of that most romantic city.Seine dinner cruises,strolling down the Champs Elysees , quaffing champagne and cognac ,salivating upon caviar,foie gras, and lusting after the dancing girls of the Moulin Rouge,Lido,Crazy Horse,whatever! Surely far more delectable than a visit to good old Brigade rd. and Church st. for Bungleoor pub-grub?!

What one predicted long ago,that the LCA might emulate the same number of HF-24s built. How history looks like repeating itself.

[NRao]

According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates.

Good. If I were to believe this web site.

Price reduction is what this government expects.

The question is how much.

$12 billion seems a nice price.

[NRao]

What one predicted long ago,that the LCA might emulate the same number of HF-24s built. How history looks like repeating itself.

Hahaha. You wish.

Said this long back. Make the LCA a tech dev machine.

Yes the IAF will not be happy, but the nation has gained a ton. No loss as long as they continue. Par for the course.

[Manish_Sharma]

Rag tag rebels have shot down Ukranian mig 29. Glad we didn't get stuck with these 29/35s. Figures why IAF still preferes less gymnastik M2k compared to this rich man's high maintenance natasha.

As in stratpost roundtable they mentioned about German airforce chief saying "you are rich, you have so much money so you can afford Mig 29s, ours we sold to Poland for 1 dollar each token price..... they were too expensive to maintain."

[kmkraoind]

Yes, "revise their p[rice estimate,etc.,...".In other words,make us an offer which we can't refuse..price wise.

Price negotiations is a must, because there is no Sonia tax now. As a package I wish India asking Dassult as a consultant in AMCA build.

--------------------------------------------------------------

What are the items under 50% package India might be building.

I bet airframe will be completely be built in India - 10-15% of bird cost. (composite and alloys built will help AMCA)
Displays - miniscule cost.
Radars - If France gives advanced tech of RX/TX modules to Indian company, then it will be an added booster to future LCA-II or LCA-III, AMCA and Naval radars.
Weapons - I wish Dassult gives tech to built weapons like AASM and other air-to-ground weapons, so that we can built our own. If we were able to build who gamut of Indian air-to-ground weapons, I bet it will be great boost to our MIC.

What else Dassult could offer to us.

[NRao]

I bet airframe will be completely be built in India - 10-15% of bird cost. (composite and alloys built will help AMCA)
Displays - miniscule cost.
Radars - If France gives advanced tech of RX/TX modules to Indian company, then it will be an added booster to future LCA-II or LCA-III, AMCA and Naval radars.
Weapons - I wish Dassult gives tech to built weapons like AASM and other air-to-ground weapons, so that we can built our own. If we were able to build who gamut of Indian air-to-ground weapons, I bet it will be great boost to our MIC.

Are you dead sure that they will allow to use their techs elsewhere?

If so, by now Indians should have been able to flap their hands and fly.

So far I have heard India can modify and add to the code, etc. Nowhere have I read that any cross pollination could occur.

But I have been wrong before.

[member_23694]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 53563.aspx

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi’s defence sector vision

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

[govardhanks]

Defesanet article on Dassult rafale about weapons and sensor integration.
http://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/noti ... fference-/

[Manish_Sharma]

At this point going strictly by the book, its either the Rafale or the EF. I don't question IAF's technical evaluation, indeed Rafale/EF at the moment were most compliant.

Just is 2 pages such a change? Here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1702251

...... the F-18 SH is the only aircraft that could meet this requirement of the MRCA since the very start. I believe that IAF (not sure if they themselves know it or not) needs a workhorse, something that can do plenty of things at a reasonable cost. They need to address falling number asap. F-18 International is a great proposal, the bird has new tech .......

We may not get a lot of TOT, but I am sure an assembly line for the F-35 can easily come up in India (just like it it did in Belgium/Holland/ Turkey etc for the F-16), India could be the hub for F-35 supplies for years to come. Nay sayers ignore the facts, the aircraft is being inducted more and more each year, it is still in testing, FOC is still some time away so any issues right now are basically expected and being handled based on severity and priority.

Yes it has to be american platform, no matter what a$$****ish behaviour, sanctions support to porkis they are doing.

The level of hypocricy, double standards I have seen on this thread.... there is no example of it anywhere.

Same posters who cry louder than any rudaali that from where the money will come to by 20+ billion $ for Rafale, were chiding other posters sanctimoniously when they pointed out the huge 5 billion $ for C-17s. Are now again dancing with joy at number of C-17s going to 24. Waah hudd ho paakhandipan ki!

Another snake oil argument is given that ToT doesn't actually bring any sort tech. Its useless. Well in that case US should share it for free, right from the first step of raw material to the last step of finished product. Kya drama hai!

Rafale which carries more payload than 42% bigger SH is outdated. Bharat doesn't have money just for non-american MMRCA but swimming in money for C-17. Where was the 2 decades hai-tauba for C-17 like hawk jet trainer? From where the money is coming for 24 C-17?

[NRao]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 53563.aspx

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi’s defence sector vision

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

The article is in the wrong thread.

Just for clarity, that quote has nothing to do with the rafale. Rafale will have no export potential nor contribute to that extent to the local sectors. That quote has been pulled out of context WRT the Rafale/MMRCA

[abhik]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 53563.aspx

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi’s defence sector vision

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

The quoted article is about the SR SAM/Maitri not the Rafale. And IIRC the Maitri programme was supposed to use mostly Indian designed components with only the missile seeker and some other components being of French design, which would be produced here with ToT. So how come they still get to keep 25% of the deal value? If the seeker etc are not made here then what is the point of forming these JVs. And I hope they don't fall for the "export potential".

[abhik]

x-post

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 53563.aspx

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi’s defence sector vision

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

The quoted article is about the SR SAM/Maitri not the Rafale. And IIRC the Maitri programme was supposed to use mostly Indian designed components with only the missile seeker and some other components being of French design, which would be produced here with ToT. So how come they still get to keep 25% of the deal value? If the seeker etc are not made here then what is the point of forming these JVs. And I hope they don't fall for the "export potential".

[VKumar]

Suppose we do not upgrade the M2k, but use that money to buy Rafale. Also add 10bn original estimate. Would the higher numbers of Rafale then be better than some Rafale and 50 upgraded M2k?

[member_23694]

The quoted article is about the SR SAM/Maitri not the Rafale

Just for clarity, that quote has nothing to do with the rafale.

Well just to clarify I know the article was not about Rafale.
I just wanted to stress on the highlighted part
The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

And this is something generic and applies for all. Any big deal should help in building up indigenous capabilities whether from France or from US or elsewhere. Hope this clarifies.

[abhik]

I just wanted to stress on the highlighted part
The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

My question is exactly what has changed from the earlier proposal?

[Karan M]

Abhik, forget it, he doesn't have the details & judging by prior posts dubious claims cherrypicked from media reports.

You are quite right, that the article makes no clear mention of what exactly has changed & how it supports the statement that france rejigged the proposal per the new Govts mission.

For instance:

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

So what? This was always known. Unlike MRSAM/LRSAM, the Maitris radar, CMS, FCS, etc all were to be Indian & the 25% represents TOT costs. Nothing new per se in this report at all.

[Karan M]

In fact, the likely Maitri radar is probably the MMSR. Fits the requirements.
viewtopic.php?p=1691286#p1691286

[Philip]

An interesting titbit from the naval td.The Kilo sub,S'Kesari will be upgraded for the second time in Russia,a record of 35 yrs. of service! Now the interesting bit is that payment for the upgrade may be made in "local currency".If this happens,a return to the "Rupee-Rouble" system,it will make Russian wares more attractive costwise. This could cover all defence deals including aircraft,subs and warships,etc. Instead of paying vast sums of $Billions,one could pay in Rupees .Why can't we also approach the French for the same for the Rafale? Why can't their also be a Euro-Rupee system of exchange?

[NRao]

Errrr.......

Rouble-Rupee: Russians need to spend the Rupee on Indian goods

Euro-Rupee: Similarly, those nations will need to spend the Rupees accumulated on Indian products

Dollar-Rupee: -ditto-

Such a deal can be easily arranged - companies do it all the time. Swaps is another form of such a transaction.

But it assumes that the local accumulation - in this case Rupees - is actually usable - has value.

Russia should be able to find a lot of Indian goods that interests her - so she does not mind building rupee accounts, knowing that it will be well spent.

What Indian goods is going to interest the Western nations? The UK perhaps tea. I cannot think of much else - wool from Kashmir?

Unless there is a lot of interest in Indian goods no nation will agree to such a deal. They would prefer a currency that would able them to buy what they really need. The day Indian goods cease to interest Russia, she too will stop this deal.

The era of the Soviets is over.

[Rien]

<snip>
What Indian goods is going to interest the Western nations? The UK perhaps tea. I cannot think of much else - wool from Kashmir?

Unless there is a lot of interest in Indian goods no nation will agree to such a deal. They would prefer a currency that would able them to buy what they really need. The day Indian goods cease to interest Russia, she too will stop this deal.

The era of the Soviets is over.

http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/Bulleti ... 080612.pdf

Page 8 is the itemized list of what the EU imports from us. Agricultural commodities isn't just tea, but also rice, coffee etc.
Ores, manufactured goods and engineered goods. And don't forget IT services, as well as BPO services. The prospects for an Euro-Rupee swap are good, but we have to start negotiating to make it happen. The benefits are the same for the existing agreements we are already finalizing with Russia, and will hopefully have with many other countries soon.

We manufacture a lot of goods, and offer a lot of services. What's required is negotiation with the EU banks and legal agreements.

[NRao]

Aug 18, 2014 :: Rafale fighter jet deal will empower Indian Air Force

The Indian Air Force has been in acute need of modernisation for long and several key defence deals have not been finalised despite years having passed. With the new Government under Prime Minister Narendra Modi assuming office, the process for purchase of Rafale combat aircraft has been expedited.

Quoting sources in the Ministry of Defence, a DNA report says that the much-awaited multi-billion Rafale combat aircraft deal with France has moved a step further with the Ministry of Defence finalising a ‘draft contract’.

The deal has been on the cards for 5 to 7 years to purchase 126 Rafale combat aircrafts but rising costs have been a major hurdle in the way of sealing the deal. French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in India last month with his top agenda being pushing the multi-billion dollar Rafale aircraft deal.

The previous UPA Government had set up a Cost Negotiation Committee to finalise the modalities for the deal but even after 30 months of negotiation, the Committee is yet to present its report. With the new Government showing seriousness in sealing the deal at the earliest, it is expected that the final report of the Cost Negotiation Committee will be out very soon and the deal would be sealed sometime this year.

According to the report, when the tender was floated in 2007, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs 42,000 crore). When Dassault Rafale was declared the lowest bidder in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs 90,000 crore). Now with the inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle costs and creation of an assembly line, the cost of the deal has climbed to a whopping $20 billion.

Speaking exclusively on Niti Central, Ranjit Kumar, Diplomatic Editor, Navbharat Times, said, “Rafale has been equipped with modern combat technology. It is also called a multi-purpose fighter as it is useful in both air defence and air combat. It can also be used for nuclear attacks.”

Speaking on the delays in this deal, he said, “This deal will be the biggest defence deal since Independence. This is why it is being called the mother of all defence deals. Because it is so big, it has had several hurdles in its way. Issues like its present cost in comparision with other manufacturers, maintenance costs, and technology transfer, have been major issues which are being negotiated step by step. This has caused such a delay.”

A recent report in The Hindu quoting Defence sources said that a work-share formula between Dassault — the French producer of the fighter jets — and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been achieved. At the outset, 18 planes would be flown in from France, while the HAL would manufacture major parts of 108 the plane, including fuselage and other units, pursuing a technology transfer arrangement with Dassault and Snecma, the French engine maker.

The combat strength of Indian Air Force (IAF) has been depleting and present fleet of Mig fighters – Mig 21, Mig 23, Mig 27 are perceived as being unable to fulfill the requirements of the IAF. This necessitated the Government’s looking for deals to purchase new and modern jet fighters. The crisis of India’s air defence can be understood from the fact that the IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons but only 30 of them are operational. Old aircraft have been retired and now the IAF has an acute need to induct modern fighters and the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in its fleet. These fit between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and the low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighters.

Speaking on the present air defence scenario, Ranjit Kumar said, “There is no prudence in allowing further delay in clinching the deal as the IAF is in acute need of enhancing the number of modern technology-based jet fighters in its fleet. The number of fighters has substantially gone down over the years.”

Speaking on the scenario after the retirement of Mig 21 fighters, which is due in a couple of years from now, he said, “MIG series fighters are being phased out in the IAF. There are hundreds of such fighters in the IAF fleet and their time for retirement has come. They were included in the IAF during 1960s and 1970s so obviously they have to retire now. Their presence is adding no strength to IAF’s combat strength and replacement of the ageing jet fighters with modern technology- based fighters is urgently required.”

[Rien]

<snip>

The whole issue boils down to price. At $10Bn, it was ok, now, at twice that, in actual dollars, irrespective of the reasons why (inflation, rupee depreciation), it still translates to a huge hit on the Indian budget which is in Rupees. Spend $10 Bn on improving the MKI fleet, and boosting the FGFA program & Tejas. These are tangible, cheaper efforts which will result in equivalent outcomes than splurging on yet another aircraft to add to our menagerie.

Yes, I am 400% in agreement. Also on the DRDO AURA. And spend more money on Kaveri. Those are the things we need. If the Rafale had been cheaper no problem, but at this price it's just not worth the money.

[kmkraoind]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon

The Rafale deal for 126 jets is esti-mated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global de-fence tender.

Representatives of the German government met leaders of the BJP regime in June, within weeks of the latter coming to power, and the talks culminated in a new commercial pro-posal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration.

Its roughly 15% amount. Means Germany, instead of paying up "Sonia tax" is giving that too India as an discount.

[vic]

Rafale undermines Indian long term security by diverting huge amount of our money. This deal of 126 planes will be worth USD 30-60 Billion over 40 years to France. Therefore France should sweeten the deal by giving us USD 50 Billion dollars of technology free. apart from ToT for Rafale. My List is as follows:-

1. Hot section technolgy & data to develop turbine engines like Turbofan, turboshaft, turboprop, marine, industrial etc.

2. Seeker technology for IR, radar seeker and night sights

3. Help in AURA UCAV, AMCA, MLH

4. Nuclear reactors for industrial and submarines

5. Access to Labs, Research Universities

6. Help in RTA and NCA

7. Sonars, radars, torpedoes and missiles

Basically allow us to absorb their Military Industrial technology across the board which in any case will cease to exist in coming to decade due to economic stagnation of France.

[Yagnasri]

Money will be a problem gurus. NM is a one ticket two journey Ahmadabadi fellow. He himself joked about it while describing how he got Amitab to work for free to his state. I seriously doubt he will allow spending such a huge amount without any serious returns to Bharat. Such serious returns are not visible as of today. Rafale will be a very hard to sell at the price they are quoting now. May be they propose some serious Airbus production in India or something like that.

[member_20453]

Just is 2 pages such a change? Here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1702251

...... the F-18 SH is the only aircraft that could meet this requirement of the MRCA since the very start. I believe that IAF (not sure if they themselves know it or not) needs a workhorse, something that can do plenty of things at a reasonable cost. They need to address falling number asap. F-18 International is a great proposal, the bird has new tech .......

The level of hypocricy, double standards I have seen on this thread.... there is no example of it anywhere.

Same posters who cry louder than any rudaali that from where the money will come to by 20+ billion $ for Rafale, were chiding other posters sanctimoniously when they pointed out the huge 5 billion $ for C-17s. Are now again dancing with joy at number of C-17s going to 24. Waah hudd ho paakhandipan ki!

Another snake oil argument is given that ToT doesn't actually bring any sort tech. Its useless. Well in that case US should share it for free, right from the first step of raw material to the last step of finished product. Kya drama hai!

Rafale which carries more payload than 42% bigger SH is outdated. Bharat doesn't have money just for non-american MMRCA but swimming in money for C-17. Where was the 2 decades hai-tauba for C-17 like hawk jet trainer? From where the money is coming for 24 C-17?[/quote]


I never doubted the technical evaluations, just doubt IAF'c logic, I am still sure they don't know what they want, considering they trialed 6 aircraft with completly different characteristics. This doesn't mean they didn't do a fair trial of all fighters. You bring up the C-17 deal, but it is irrelevant since the C-17 has no competitor, name one aircraft which is in active production with reliable service and similar tonnage that can do the job with a combat record like the C-17. Secondly the cost for the 10 C-17s for a life time of service is 4.1 billion which is fair since the bigger the aircraft the more the maintenance and charges related to it. Also keeping in mind the C-17 is a rugged bird that will be used in adverse areas and can land in places where none of the fighter can even dream of going, so for what it brings to the table its a fair price. It all comes down to requirement, apart from the C-17/C-130J/ AN-32 and the ageing IL-76, India currently has no quick way to push forward large numbers of troops and equipment to the Eastern theater and indeed IAF is gaga over the C-17/C-130J and these were FMS deals with no compeition, IAF wanted them they go it and they will get more.

Now MRCA is a competitive deal, concieved more than a decade ago, based on requirements of that time, even the trials conducted 4-5 years hold no ground since most of the aircraft have been already improved.

As for US behaviour, grow up, all nations will look out for their own interests, just as thank to russian negligence, pretty much every able platform in Chinese inventory is copied from subs, frigates, missiles to fighters and pose a direct threat to India.

The fact remains IAF/IN/IA see relations with US differently and thats all that matters, better a slow frienship than a hasty one, more deals will be signed with Unkil you just have to live with it dear, no-one gives two shits about what we think here anyways. Apache/ Chinook/ perhaps S-70 Seahawk, more P-8I (I support this deal), more C-17s, more C-130Js, probably F-35 for IN in the future (who knows), Javelins these are deals that will mostly happen. If we are considering them there is no harm in considering SH International or F-35 just depends on how far and long this Rafale drama continues.

Point is Rafale for that matter, EF & SH International (which on paper is already better than the Rafale & EF and promisingly cheaper to operate) are obsolete by 2020 timeframe. F-35 holds plenty of capability and there is no reduction in support for the program in the US and most of the customers, though issues existing it is a bird on track towards FOC eventually and if MRCA deal cannot be wrapped in the in the next year, we might as well order more MKI/LCA tejas mk-1 to make up shortfalls while ordering the F-35 for delivery starting 2020 onwards.

[krishnan]

add to all that crap that is coming out now. Hard times ahead