Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2014 12:53

Singha wrote:Cheen has a 'anti stealth' type radar mounted a special mast between the fore and aft mast on some ships. looks like a old doordarshan tv antenna.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... troyer.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... gh_res.jpg

it is a meter wave VHF radar

Interesting concept although the radar itself looks antique , Considering they would face JSF like LO type it would be good to have VHF Radar on ships for EW role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2014 13:20

thats why its there. also to detect low-RCS weapons in flight toward cheen fleets or mainland...things like JASSM-ER maybe.

cheen and russia are pouring efforts into degrading the huge advantage of khan which is stealthy platforms and munitions. if you notice their latest munitions like kh101 are vlo shaped.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Aug 2014 16:03

Rahul M wrote:thales RAWL lic manuf. by BEL.

Oh, standardization. Navy has standardised it with host of them including 76mm gun, Ak, RBU etc. It was specifically said by the IN officer conducting us. He knew a lot about it. Navy wants almost every thing to be Indian or made in India in it.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Aug 2014 16:06

Vishnu wrote: Chacko, I think its important to be realistic is attempting to analyse what this warship is all about. I too have had a chat with the good Commodore, in fact for half an hour, this morning. And while he does, correctly, explain the enormous advances made in this warship, there is a blank when it comes to explaining the lack of SAMs, and whether or not it was right to commission a warship of this size with a 76mm gun.

I really do feel sad that we came so close to building the finest destroyer in the world but inexplicably fell short in typical `we are like that only' fashion. I do hope that is corrected ... otherwise this warship will essentially remain a defensive asset ... fine in our extended waters but incapable of being a world class carrier escort if we ever choose to venture into someone else's backyard.

Cheers.
Vishnu

Vishnu, Since I have written a book with him and we do a lot of talking on these subjects, our comfort levels are different. That said, I just mentioned what he told me. Nothing personal on you. Just like your program on TV, these are various POV's.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Aug 2014 16:22

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:Cheen has a 'anti stealth' type radar mounted a special mast between the fore and aft mast on some ships. looks like a old doordarshan tv antenna.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... troyer.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... gh_res.jpg

it is a meter wave VHF radar
Interesting concept although the radar itself looks antique , Considering they would face JSF like LO type it would be good to have VHF Radar on ships for EW role.

VHF radar for EW? why would you want to jam that spectrum?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 19 Aug 2014 16:28

[/quote]

Chacko, I think its important to be realistic is attempting to analyse what this warship is all about. I too have had a chat with the good Commodore, in fact for half an hour, this morning. And while he does, correctly, explain the enormous advances made in this warship, there is a blank when it comes to explaining the lack of SAMs, and whether or not it was right to commission a warship of this size with a 76mm gun.

I really do feel sad that we came so close to building the finest destroyer in the world but inexplicably fell short in typical `we are like that only' fashion. I do hope that is corrected ... otherwise this warship will essentially remain a defensive asset ... fine in our extended waters but incapable of being a world class carrier escort if we ever choose to venture into someone else's backyard.

Cheers.
Vishnu[/quote]

Hi Vishnu,

A dear friend (Cmdr) did the electrical pre commissioning checks on Kolkatta 2 or 3 years ago when he was posted at WESSE. He is posted on board a vessel of the Western Fleet now. He told me some horror stories about how he got calls, inducements and threats from all sorts of people when he refused to sign off on some things as they were completely non-functional. I posted this at that time. I was speaking to him recently and he said that 32 SAMs are definitely under armed and if you speak to anyone of the rank of Capt and below they will confirm that. Most serving flag officers will not as this looks bad with the ministry. Retd ones will as one did to me over a drink when (ex FOCWF) I was in Pune last week ! Both agree with you on the gun as well.

I was in the army and the story was the same. For most officers (not all by any means) the higher you get the less candid you are as you need good equations with the ministry. The word we used to use was 'spineless'. But to be fair to them they cannot openly say that we are under armed or vulnerable as that undermines troop/sailor confidence. Morale and confidence is everything. But sometimes you have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Anyway from what I hear operationally 32 SAMs are inadequate and every one agrees. But lets remember that Kolkatta does not even have the 32 SAMs right now and no TAS. It is naked.

But it had to be commissioned. No point in letting it rust in MDL.

Akshay

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2014 17:47

I have no background in naval arch, but it seems heavier parts near the CG center of the ship both in latitude and longitude would cause least disruption to balance. the big funnels in middle are mostly empty structures to pull in cool air and push out hot air.

16 brahmos = 3t x 16 = 48 tons + vls. maybe site them midships where the 4 HWT tubes are located right now.

enlarge the foredeck by widening the ship by another 1meters.

put some 64 barak8 in the front
move the RBU to sides where the ak630 are kept..put them just behind the ak630 since they lob the rounds up or near the fwd funnel
32 barak1 on top of the helicopter hanger
4 x ak630
HWT launchers on both sides of the stern below the helo hanger

its too late for P15B also now as the first two are already under construction but perhaps not for the P17A which can still implement this new layout to pack in say 48 Barak8, 8 brahmos and 24 barak1 instead.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2014 18:46

Severodvinsk shipbuilders to modernise India’s Sindukesari submarine

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Aug 2014 20:21

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Aug 2014 20:22

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Chacko, I think its important to be realistic is attempting to analyse what this warship is all about. I too have had a chat with the good Commodore, in fact for half an hour, this morning. And while he does, correctly, explain the enormous advances made in this warship, there is a blank when it comes to explaining the lack of SAMs, and whether or not it was right to commission a warship of this size with a 76mm gun.

I really do feel sad that we came so close to building the finest destroyer in the world but inexplicably fell short in typical `we are like that only' fashion. I do hope that is corrected ... otherwise this warship will essentially remain a defensive asset ... fine in our extended waters but incapable of being a world class carrier escort if we ever choose to venture into someone else's backyard.

Cheers.
Vishnu

Hi Vishnu,

A dear friend (Cmdr) did the electrical pre commissioning checks on Kolkatta 2 or 3 years ago when he was posted at WESSE. He is posted on board a vessel of the Western Fleet now. He told me some horror stories about how he got calls, inducements and threats from all sorts of people when he refused to sign off on some things as they were completely non-functional. I posted this at that time. I was speaking to him recently and he said that 32 SAMs are definitely under armed and if you speak to anyone of the rank of Capt and below they will confirm that. Most serving flag officers will not as this looks bad with the ministry. Retd ones will as one did to me over a drink when (ex FOCWF) I was in Pune last week ! Both agree with you on the gun as well.

I was in the army and the story was the same. For most officers (not all by any means) the higher you get the less candid you are as you need good equations with the ministry. The word we used to use was 'spineless'. But to be fair to them they cannot openly say that we are under armed or vulnerable as that undermines troop/sailor confidence. Morale and confidence is everything. But sometimes you have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

Anyway from what I hear operationally 32 SAMs are inadequate and every one agrees. But lets remember that Kolkatta does not even have the 32 SAMs right now and no TAS. It is naked.

But it had to be commissioned. No point in letting it rust in MDL.

Akshay

Akshay sirjee,
No offence intended, and I am sure your friend is a reliable source. Also, men in general tend to get more cynical as they age. So what you say about becoming less candid may be true (at least in the corporate world).

But, a very honest and relevant question to ask is:

(1) Was the ship *designed* with 32 Barak-8 SAMs? If yes, then what was the DND's thought process behind it?...if the thought process is that the threat perception requires only 32 SAMs (or that India can only afford 32 Israeli SAMs per ship), then we shouldn't be complaining at all.

(2) Was the ship *designed* with 64 Barak-8 SAMs (or 32 Barak-8 + 32 Maitri PDMS/Barak-1)? Then what are the reasons for not outfitting it as such?...in such a case, the finger may need to be pointed at the tanking economy in the last 2-3 years, or blacklisting of IAI, or inept negotiations on the MoD's part, etc. This however CAN be fixed sooner or later.

(3) The lack of an ATAS is not just the Kolkata's problem. *All* our ships are not equipped with ATAS, and have been operating as such for more than half their service lives. Mind you, the TAS was introduced on UK Leanders in 1978-81 and technically we've been naked since then

You are right, the emperor has no clothes. But without a local military industrial complex (alongside roads/schools/hospitals that compete vs. defence imports), perhaps we shouldn't even be playing the "take-the-fight-to-china's-backyard" game?

Food for thought...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Aug 2014 20:36

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 53563.aspx

Weapon suppliers appear to be getting the drift of PM Narendra Modi’s intentions to speed up defence indigenisation and transform the country from the world’s biggest arms importer into an export powerhouse.

France has done the math to make a renewed pitch for a stalled Rs. 20,000-crore deal to co-develop a short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) — Maitri — in India, under a government-to-government programme. Negotiations for the project were completed in 2011.

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

To be developed for the navy and air force, the 15-km range SR-SAM could be considered to provide multilayered air defence capability to Indian warships, including aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.

Vital air defence systems are missing on INS Kolkata and the Vikramaditya as the long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM), being co-developed with Israel, is not operational yet.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

India and the US appointed high-ranking officers to explore opportunities for co-development and co-production of state-of-the-art weapon systems during US defence Secretary Chuck Hagel’s visit to New Delhi from August 7 to 9.

India spent Rs. 83,458 crore on importing weapons during the last three years, with the US emerging as the top supplier with orders worth Rs. 32,615 crore, followed by Russia (Rs 25,363 crore) and France (Rs 12,046 crore).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2014 23:40

The Talwars are better armed with their multiple anti-air/missile systems than the Kol. It is astonishing that the warship is meant to carry on 32 LRSAMs.Just a few ripple fired salvoes of anti-ship missiles will deplete it of defences and unless a secondary anti-missile system is installed later,this class of warship will enter "harm's way" underarmed,with an inadequate main gun too. Is there a cover-up with the Israelis also reg. the failure of the arrival of B-8? There are several unanswered Qs which the IN has to be more transparent about. Wanting everything to be built in India is a wet dream,as far as weaponry goes,as almost everything of substance including main guns is sourced from abroad.In this context he success of Akash with no naval variant for the IN is puzzling. Why?

Coming back to the P-28 "corvettes",they are 3500t,displacing more tonnage than a Leander frigate and almost equal in size to the "G" class,and should actually be classed as frigates. There is much scope for augmenting its capability.Looking closely at the warship,one finds that there is enough space between the main gun and locally built MBUs for an 8-cell VLS which could carry the Klub variants,both anti-shipping and anti-sub.There may even be space for installing another anti-sub weapon system such as Medvedka.

SS-N-29 Medvedka (K-77R)

(USSR/Russian Federation)
Notes: This new ASW weapon was developed by the Splav bureau which also participated in design of many of the RBU-___ systems. It is intended to be a replacement for that long-running weapons family aboard future Russian warships. The actual K-77R is a free-flight 400mm, 1696lb rocket tipped with a terminally-guided underwater submunition. It is fired from a quad launcher which elevates but does not train. The maximum target depth is 1650’; engagement envelope is ½ NM minimum to 11NM maximum.

Surface combatants 2000t and below would be better described as corvettes.

Worth posting Austin's report about the Kilo (SKesari) upgrade.It will mark 35 yrs. of service,probably some sort of record for a Kilo type sub. Another important point is about payment,in "local currency".This will have a huge impact upon Indo-Russian defence and other sales.

The shipyard specialists have carried out in India the submarine’s pre-repair fault detection and agreed on the working documents, the shipyard’s press service told ITAR-TASS.

“On the basis of this package of documents, the Zvezdochka shipyard and India’s Defense Ministry will work out the terms of the Sindukesari repair contract. The contract is expected to be signed in the first half of 2015,” the press service said.

India asks Russia to upgrade two submarines
“The sides on the whole understand the technical part of the future contract, but its financial aspect will require additional efforts to avoid the influence of sanctions, imposed by the United States and EU countries on Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) to which Zvezdochka belongs,” the press service said. The shipyard does not rule out that the contract settlements will be made in the national currency.

Next summer, the Indian submarine will arrive in Severodvinsk. Sindukesari will be the sixth Russian-built Indian submarine of Project 877EKM of the Varshavyanka class to be modernised by Zvezdochka. Nevertheless, this contract will be special for the enterprise, the shipyard says, as it will be the second Sindukesari repair. The submarine was built by the Leningrad Admiralty Association (now Admiralty Wharves Shipyard) in 1988, and in 1999 - 2001, the Petersburg shipbuilders conducted medium repair and modernization of the submarine. Thus, Sindukesari will be the first vessel of the Indian group of Varshavyanka class submarines to reach the service life of 35 years with maintaining high operational and combat qualities. In September 2013, the Indian side officially said it intended to conclude a contract with Zvezdochka in 2015 - 2019 on the repair of two Project 877EKM submarines with the extension of their service life.

Zvezdochka, specializing in the repair and scrapping of nuclear-powered submarines, since 1997 has modernised on the Indian Navy order five diesel-electric submarines - Sinduvir, Sinduratna, Sindugosh, Sinduvijay and Sindurakshak. The enterprise also continues the repair and modernisation support of the Sindukirti submarine at its permanent base - Visakhapatnam city.

All these Russian-built submarines of Project 887EKM (NATO reporting name Kilo) were designed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (St. Petersburg). They are designed for fighting enemy’s submarines and ships and defending naval bases, coastal and sea service lines, reconnaissance and patrolling missions. The displacement of these submarines is 2,300 tonnes, length - 72.6 metres, submerged speed - 19 knots (about 35 km per hour), crew - 52 people and cruising capacity - 45 days. The kilo submarine is armed with six 533-mm calibre torpedo launchers. The submarines are modernized with the installation of the Club-S modern Russian cruise missile system (designed by the Novator design bureau) with the firing range of about 200 kilometres

John · Post by **John** » 20 Aug 2014 07:17

Talwar ability to deal with saturation attacks is limited, Shtil can only engage 2 targets at a time and its arm launcher rate of fire is limited. Barak-8 in other supposedly can be used to intercept target beyond the horizon by using target designation from airborne platform. So better range, higher rate of fire and higher probability means less missiles needed to engage targets..

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Aug 2014 07:19

Barak-8 in other supposedly can be used to intercept target beyond the horizon by using target designation from airborne platform

When was this tested?

John · Post by **John** » 20 Aug 2014 07:28

brar_w wrote:
Barak-8 in other supposedly can be used to intercept target beyond the horizon by using target designation from airborne platform
When was this tested?

It is been speculated with whole network centric capabilities similar claims have been made about SM-6 as well. That said it is still puzzling move to have only 32 missiles which confirms my theory that the decision was made to keep costs low for P-15As especially with price escalation Shivalik saw.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Aug 2014 07:32

It is been speculated with whole network centric capabilities similar claims have been made about SM-6 as well

Speculations aside, the SM6 has actually tested this capability.

http://www.janes.com/article/40550/us-n ... pts-at-sea

The pipeline required for this is not straight-forward, its a lot of data links, some LPI/LPD others with very high data capability all linked up to create the sensor -- weapon -- target chain (Plus the big question of actually having an "ORBIT" of sensors flying overhead constantly to actually provide the qualitative data to get a kill (Unless one wants to just happen to have something up at the right place at the right time) ). That's why i asked whether this has ever been performed in a live scenario. The USN has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the back end and chart out the Baseline 9 capability of AEGIS which enables NIFCA to actually do OTH intercepts using the SM6 missile and shoot off targets over land as recently demonstrated.

BTW, whats the estimated range of the B8 and what is the ' speculated ' terminal performance at the very end of the radar horizon ( lets use a fast jet 300 KM out flying at around 20k feet)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 07:34

going by this slide, the navy designed the P15A with 32 sams only. whatever 'hedging/cost cutting' is being referred to was not a afterthought but baked into the design. probably they will add some barak1 later from R- or godavari class ships to supplement the ak630.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Aug 2014 09:47

Looks like bean counting types have prevailed here; had the same ship been imported we would have spent 2x the amount + time and cost spent in user trials and re-calibration of sensors for sub continent (which happens for all ships imported from Russia). Classic case of penny wise pound foolish.

Beyond the horizon engagement ? That only applies to a scenario where the range of missile is much more than the ground/surface based Radar coverage, SM-6 has a range in excess of 200 km while Barak only engages targets in vicinity of 70km former could benefit with more accurate speed vector info from a airborne radar closer to the target , Barak 8 will not need it for 70km is well within the Radar horizon of MFSTAR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 10:53

UVLS ambitions are premature as the brahmos is very long and large. using the brahmos tubes with adapter for barak is a huge waste of useful volume for the slim missile. khan tomahawks are only 21" diameter. but I guess nirbhay if it is sized for 21" might in future be able to use a barak8 silo , and astra SRSAM could also be tri- or quad-packed in ....... we need to design this new VLS and control its production its IP and not depend on rafael for this.

its a complex new project to design this UVLS and best resources must be thrown at it.

A50 - 15 feet depth - for corvettes and frigates with limited deck penetration - SRSAM in dense config , barak8 -- 8 cell units
A70 - 20feet depth the full tamale - SRSAM, barak8, AAD for seaward ABM, nirbhay, Klub ASW -- 8 cell units
A70-MKI - 32 feet depth for brahmos, brahmos2, shourya -- 8 cell units

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Aug 2014 10:56

Negi ji, regarding your post on system integration vs fusion in beginning of this page.

Does it mean that 'in fusion' inputs from all the radars, sensors is fed into a supercomputer which is programmed like a human brain to analyse the whole picture and present the best decision?

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 20 Aug 2014 16:14

NDTV accesses first clear image of INS Arihant. On air soon. Will post here when I time. She's, um, interesting, for sure !

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 20 Aug 2014 16:41

Can never figure out how to post an image here. Forgive me ... You can get the full image of Arihant on my twitter handle: @VishnuNDTV

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Aug 2014 16:46

Vishnu wrote:Can never figure out how to post an image here. Forgive me ... You can get the full image of Arihant on my twitter handle: @VishnuNDTV

There

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2014 16:48

@vishnu som

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 20 Aug 2014 16:53

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 20 Aug 2014 17:12

even after approx 200% cost escalation, our Shivalik class FFGs cost around 11500 Crores whereas similar frigates other countries (barring maybe China) cost much more. Why is it then that we constantly say that there are huge cost escalations? Did we actually underestimate the costs earlier so the actual costs look so bloated. I am not discounting the fact that due to various factors the costs did increase but did we actually think that we could have 3 multi-role FFGs for 4000 crores or $250 m each?

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 20 Aug 2014 17:25

actually the price for each frigate is even lesser at around $380 m. seems we were expecting to have a 4900 tons FFG for $120 m while ordering only 3 ships in a class.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2014 17:31

^^ I remember many years ago describing Arihant verbally to BR member Gagan who then made the first definitive (and most accurate) artwork of it publicly available.

So many years of hard work has gone into creating the world's first multirole nuclear submarine.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Aug 2014 17:32

Cannot say for sure without a full outline of the shape, but the hump looks very streamlined and not abruptly jutting out as in Delta class. Also L:D ratio seems higher akin to an SSN. To me it seems more like in the mould of Virginia class.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2014 17:37

Karan, when you'll see the full hull, you'll realize its designed like a humpback whale like the illustrative example here http://www.whalesong.com.au/wp-content/ ... _final.jpg

And unlike ANYTHING built ANYWHERE before.

Requesting everyone to please stop making comparisons to others. Its insulting to the designers & builders. Its time to be rightfully proud of what we've designed ourselves.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Aug 2014 17:42

tsarkar wrote:Karan, when you'll see the full hull, you'll realize its designed like a humpback whale like the illustrative example here http://www.whalesong.com.au/wp-content/ ... _final.jpg

And unlike ANYTHING built ANYWHERE before.

Requesting everyone to please stop making comparisons to others. Its insulting to the designers & builders. Its time to be rightfully proud of what we've designed ourselves.

I see what you mean! BTW the humpback whales are known for their acrobatics. I guess Arihant class will be as agile. Shan o Varuna!

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Aug 2014 17:48

Well it cannot even hold candle to the masterpiece in submarine design the one with exquisite angles and hump which will put even a bactrian camel to shame. The Jin class.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 17:52

our puppy features two blocks of drain holes for the ballast tanks to drain out...near the missile tubes. the cheen jin class has more such holes than swiss cheese.

are more holes helpful in emergency surfacing actions...the kind where the amirkhan sub porpoises up like a orca and settles back down with a beefy thud?
6000t of steel coming up at tens of knots and smashing down from a multi storey height...true pawa that. but the virginia beauty does not have such a impressive array of holes as the Jin either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha4X-lQlwNA

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2014 17:53

A better image of a humpback whale

Its a complete original design for Indian requirements.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 17:57

love that zebra pattern on the periscope. have seen that in U-boats operating off scandinavia and 688 class subs iirc.
http://www.allwoodships.com/Submarines/ ... d-sail.jpg

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2014 17:58

@Singha, no it doesn't.

The American submarine is showing emergency surfacing that uses hydrazine decomposition gas generators as described in detail here here http://cs.astrium.eads.net/sp/resus/RESUS%20System.pdf

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 18:10

delta class. Rus had not managed to make smaller slbm until bulava. its more like a n-powered underwater barge than a sub.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Aug 2014 18:12

Arihant's hull seems pretty clean , looks like when this pic was taken no anechoic tiles were installed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2014 18:19

dumb question. why is the sonar area in front painted white? is it made of small hull steel or a different material?

the southern beauty virginia has 2 huge tandem tubes ahead of the sail...each packing 6 thawks. sweet.
http://www.nti.org/media/images/Jan-27- ... 1327691864

the yasen also packs a obscene number of slcm/asm...32 VLS probaby 4 tubes x 8 kalibr/klub/kh101 is claimed by wiki..no clear photo exists of that part of the sub.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 20 Aug 2014 18:23

The dents on the conning tower indicate to me that they took her all the way to crush depth and then beyond .. all in the harbour !!! Thats one deep harbour they got !!