Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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Pulikeshi
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

A_Gupta wrote: Then the spoken language began to diverge from Sanskrit; and India's downhill slide began. Persian at some time became the court language and that did not promote political vigor either. Then English.
Very good points! Man we were having similar discussion over good brew last weekend - couple of problem sketchs:

1. Illustrating the problem you describe by creating a language map of India with contrast (ruler vs. ruled) over time.
2. Extending this to beyond India and perhaps the subcontinent if not a broader area and highlighting the language of colonization.

Ideas, some have been stated earlier BRF:

1. Creating marriage, birthday, poojas, etc. rituals in Indian languages of each state.
2. Primary education in native language, with English at a later secondary level.
3. Start teaching native languages around the world, perhaps a start is the Indian subcontinent.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: Pulikeshi I don't want to make it personal either but I must point out that you choose to display both sophistry and ignorance with startling confidence. You are asking me to answer a question about a claim about Ayurveda that I did not make - and this is the second time you have done it in two posts. Not sure why you do this but I think you have digressed from the issue and you will succeed in getting me off topic if I answer a nonsensical question on the lines of "What profession are trained whores following today?". Trained whores will always follow their dharma no? The will stick to their training. They will not be vaids or soldiers

What I find interesting is that for all your talk about shruti smriti bla bla - you are a loyal exponent of Western Universalism. Getting that into my head makes it easier to see your viewpoint and not be deluded by your veneer awareness of Indian ethos by the Sanskrit jargon that you use. You are a man who lives by the west and your views are your right.
Shiv, you and me disagree, and so do not follow my 'incorrect' views - simple onlee, why loose WU based blood pressure? :mrgreen:
But you got to quit making and taking things personally. I appreciate you giving me the data on how many allopaths, etc.
are practicing in India. However, you cleverly avoid answering my question, not that I need an answer from you.
The key is who will you or a loved one be going to if and when faced with an unfortunate affliction such as cancer, heart disease or ebola?
If your answer is Unani or Ayurveda, power to you, but it is a valid question on an important question on peoples health.
Perhaps the foolish Islamists are right in avoiding WU discovered polio vaccines? :shock: (ok, now I may get accused of being an Islamist!)

That I talk about Shruti and Smriti upsets you, but whose father what goes to you? I am upset by your pu pu potty discussions as well.
However, I have to the best of my abilities tried to be patient with you constant derailment and apologistic potty poverty diatribes.
I simply look at those as a scaling issue, that needs India based solutions such as TCS/Bharthi signing up for some of it... etc.

Now you have accused me of WUism, just because I chose to show no hatred of WU claims, just a calm calculated understanding of
the intellectual origins and experiences of those claims. This is ironic as I find none of us are free from WU given our education and
present vocation and activities. It will take several generations for extraction and reversal of the deracination, but feel free to ignore...
As we continue the discussion in a language imposed by a colonial power on us and our ancestors...

Finally, my views are my right, but you are not right in misrepresenting or otherwise mislabeling my views in your ignorance of them.
When I said WU first on the OIT thread, you went hammer and tongs on me, as you have several times on this thread without
fully understanding what I am saying. Like I have said to you before, you are welcome to ignore me and even put me on such a list.
I am coming to the unfortunate conclusion that your uncle did not miss much!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote: Shiv, you and me disagree, and so do not follow my 'incorrect' views - simple onlee, why loose WU based blood pressure? :mrgreen:

<snip>

That I talk about Shruti and Smriti upsets you, but whose father what goes to you? I am upset by your pu pu potty discussions as well.

<snip>
Finally, my views are my right, but you are not right in misrepresenting or otherwise mislabeling my views in your ignorance of them.
Nice.

Now please explain
1. Where did I say that Ayurveda must be made a religion (your words in a post that you can find)
2. Where did I claim that Ayurveda can do everything, You said in your reply to me:"what solution can the East - Ayurveda etc. provide for this disease? It has all answers onlee no?"

You see, if you claim that I did not make claims about Ayurveda but your words were aimed at someone else whom you do not want to confront directly but you are onlee using a reply to me to take a pot shot at them, it is plain sophistry apart from being irritating. And then you tell me it was not aimed at me and I should not be irritated. That is nonsense.

3. Please explain the meaning of the following post and what you were trying to convey to me and in what way it is relevant to anything I have written?
Better to be wrong and alive, then to be right and dead!
Your rhetoric suggests that you are more irritated by my views on WU than your "Oh I'm so cool - you are angry" responses are designed to suggest

Need examples?
those that want a solution may have to hold their breaths too long!
Better to be wrong and alive, then to be right and dead!
You style or writing is far from neutral. It is combative, and so is mine and if you resort to classic tactics that deviate from the subject you will get exactly that back from me. When I react to your post using the same style that you use, you think I am angry or upset. What might it be when you do it?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

I think here is what I got from the last few pages, and I agree with those sentiments:

1) When we try to bring any change in India, we should work WITH the culture and not against it. And to work WITH the culture, one must attempt to understand why the culture came to be so. This applies to language, ayurveda, diet, education, urban/rural infrastructure etc.

2) WU is a disruption that aims to erase the existing culture, and thereby making one dependent on the physical and intellectual products of the west. In such a case, any development in India would be far inferior than what is available in the west and naturally so, since they have atleast a couple of centuries of cultural continuity than we do. So adopting WU will make us slaves of the west. Any product or intellectual property we develop will always have to play catch up with what is there in the west. In such a case, a WU inflicted individual would go for the product of the west rather than a product made in India, which results in "cargo cult" behavior. This inturn results in country becoming "banana republic". I would claim that the "cargo cult" behavior is fractally recursive. i.e. In every thought there is a WU implant :)

3) When designing solutions, we may have to develop science and technology that the west many not even need, and may have never looked into. The recent discussions in the link language thread on common-script for Indic languages is an example. This is fractaly recursive and applies to each and every part of our lives. There is also a scaling issue here, which can be used to our advantage.
Last edited by member_22733 on 22 Aug 2014 07:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:
1. Creating marriage, birthday, poojas, etc. rituals in Indian languages of each state.
2. Primary education in native language, with English at a later secondary level.
3. Start teaching native languages around the world, perhaps a start is the Indian subcontinent.
1. Creating marriage, birthday, poojas, etc. rituals in Indian languages of each state.
Veda to be recited in local language for a namakaran? Shruti is a Hindu girl name.

2. Primary education in native language, with English at a later secondary level.
These are the "poor in English" guys who don't get into IIT/AIIMS. They will work for DRDO or become Ayurvedic docs. What goes of anyone's father?

3. Start teaching native languages around the world, perhaps a start is the Indian subcontinent.
India has 3 language formula. No need to start anything onlee
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

LokeshC wrote:
I would claim that the "cargo cult" behavior is fractally recursive. i.e. In every thought there is a WU implant :)
Broadly agree with your points. Here is a small addition of color.

WU is an affliction that is going to be hard to escape. Some of us will come at it with rejection of the other.
I tend to lean towards becoming even more so, in order to go beyond them. This does not mean accept them.
Adopt the "missing years" from WU if we must, learn from their experiences, but come up with your own conclusions.
LokeshC wrote: When designing solutions, we may have to develop science and technology that the west many not even need, and may have never looked into.
Hence the statement above is a perfect way to sum up what I have been trying to say.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

I am all for digestion of whatever is "good" from WU. If there is anything good in it, we should not hesitate to make it our own by any means possible. Steal, loot and give no credit. I have no issues with that.

Hard Sciences and technology are an example of "good".
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv wrote: 1. Creating marriage, birthday, poojas, etc. rituals in Indian languages of each state.
Veda to be recited in local language for a namakaran? Shruti is a Hindu girl name.

2. Primary education in native language, with English at a later secondary level.
These are the "poor in English" guys who don't get into IIT/AIIMS. They will work for DRDO or become Ayurvedic docs. What goes of anyone's father?

3. Start teaching native languages around the world, perhaps a start is the Indian subcontinent.
India has 3 language formula. No need to start anything onlee
Nothing to say that reduces entropy. You know your answers.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote: I tend to lean towards becoming even more so, in order to go beyond them. This does not mean accept them.


In the specific case of medicine "going beyond" can either be

1."exceeding them in improving maternal mortality and child mortality etc" and exceeding them in cost while doing so

Or it can mean

2. "exceeding in them improving maternal mortality and child mortality etc but keeping costs much lower"

or it can mean

3. "Doing something completely different"

Which path should India take?

I would suggest that we cannot exceed them without exceeding their costs. Heck they are unable to afford exceeding themselves. If we don't spend as much as them we are not even going to go as far as they have done.

We will necessarily have to do something different.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:
shiv wrote: 1. Creating marriage, birthday, poojas, etc. rituals in Indian languages of each state.
Veda to be recited in local language for a namakaran? Shruti is a Hindu girl name.

2. Primary education in native language, with English at a later secondary level.
These are the "poor in English" guys who don't get into IIT/AIIMS. They will work for DRDO or become Ayurvedic docs. What goes of anyone's father?

3. Start teaching native languages around the world, perhaps a start is the Indian subcontinent.
India has 3 language formula. No need to start anything onlee
Nothing to say that reduces entropy. You know your answers.
Maybe a cigar and Bourbon would come up with better results than fine brew? What goes of whose father onlee?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

^^Trolling me says much about you, but will not stop me from saying what I want.
I have said I have nothing to say to you. Why respond to me onlee?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:^^Trolling me says much about you, but will not stop me from saying what I want.
I have said I have nothing to say to you. Why respond to me onlee?
Do I detect paranoia here? You are free to do what you want, but if you troll me expect to get it back from me.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote:Do I detect paranoia here? You are free to do what you want, but if you troll me expect to get it back from me.
Not working... we could be at this game forever! :mrgreen:
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

LokeshC wrote:I am all for digestion of whatever is "good" from WU. If there is anything good in it, we should not hesitate to make it our own by any means possible. Steal, loot and give no credit. I have no issues with that.

Hard Sciences and technology are an example of "good".
There is an interesting dynamic that comes into play when we deal with the west.

The West declares standards and by those standards western countries always rank high and India always ranks low.

Now who is stopping Indians from setting up the scales in such a way that India scores high and everyone else scores low? Let me name a few countries who set up scales on which they scored high and the west scores low. North Korea, Pakistan, the former USSR, Cuba, Iran

Playing with the scales may be good for self image, but that does nothing to get us real technology and technology related industrial wealth. But that does not mean that we simply must meet or exceed the west in every single parameter that they set up. I am saying that we do not need to try and match the west in poverty levels, mean income, infant mortality, number of toilets, number of Olympic golds, etc. We can survive with low rankings on those if we score on the science and tech.

We need to match the west or exceed them mainly in science and technology and let the fruits of that address other issues.

I believe we also need to look at the areas in which we have exceeded the west or the west have degraded themselves to levels that we must not go. These are in biodiversity and preservation of species. We also have some cultural achievements that we must not discard or lose even though these do not earn us a high rank in any western designed scale.

I think we also exceed the west in our ability to have people doing the same job as in the west at far lower salaries. Whether this is good or bad depends on the perspective that one looks at it from. If we can do that it should be possible to do a better job for lower salaries, making the west vs India salary differential redundant.

But the self image bit should not be totally discarded. It is essential for national pride and job satisfaction. One of the west's more subtle victories is the creation of people who are contemptuous of anything that is non western and therefore "less" than the west. Typically anyone who disagrees with this is accused of sour grapes. This creates a dynamic in which people tend to support a western solution or prescription to avoid a loser tag.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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^^^ I agree 100%. And I am not being sarcastic of facetious.

WU is neo-colonialism in another name, and I have mentioned it before that it has a policy-setter --> enforcers --> sepoy architecture. In the long run, sepoys are just sepoys and enforcers are just that. The real battle is with the policy-setter. That is the institution of WU that we must destroy at any cost, either by a trojan horse or an alternative system.

It is that policy-setting entity that causes our sepoys and WU inflicted individuals to run races in directions that we dont need to run.

If we absorb the hard science and tech, put our heads together and come up with metrics and measures that work with our culture and make sense to people, we will have built a whole ecosystem to go with it. The resulting industries and products may not look anything like what we have ever seen before. If our people adopt it the non-WU economy gets larger, resulting in more power projection capability.

If we continue on that path for a few decades, we will see some of our "universalisms" cross into the west. That will be the time to destroy the WU policy-setting entity, or at least make it irrelevant to India.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Rudradev »

LokeshC wrote:I am all for digestion of whatever is "good" from WU. If there is anything good in it, we should not hesitate to make it our own by any means possible. Steal, loot and give no credit. I have no issues with that.

Hard Sciences and technology are an example of "good".
I sense a definitional discrepancy here. There is nothing good in "WU" i.e. Western Universalism.

There are systems of institutional organization, elements of knowledge, and individual discoveries currently prevalent in the West that are perfectly OK and indeed beneficial for us to adopt. That I have no argument with.

Rather than deliberately choosing to "give no credit", I would argue that there is no credit to give. In fact, free knowledge transfer between civilizations has been the norm for far longer in history than any notion of intellectual proprietorship will admit. If we adopt what is called today Western science and technology, well, it would never have evolved in the first place without our decimal number system, calculus and medicine. So... what "credit"?

The point I want to make is that none of these things constitute any part of Western Universalism. I think we might need to be clearer on what, specifically, Western Universalism is, because it certainly doesn't include science and technology as currently practiced in the West, in and of themselves.

Let me illustrate with an example. Living in the West for many years as a single guy, I had to cook for myself quite a bit. Over time I learned a few recipes for European cuisine... Fetuccine, Bourguignon, etc... from friends, cookbooks, or the internet, and I've added them to my repertoire.

If I cook these things sometimes and enjoy them it is not Western Universalism. I am happy to admit that they evolved in their current form in Italy or France... my admission is not because I'm victimized by Western Universalism. I can still like them, and I can even invite my Western friends over to eat my renditions of them and give me honest criticism. That does not make me prone to Western Universalism. I know with total conviction that these items will never replace the Ghasshi and Kootu and Bendi of my grandmother in terms of being the best food in the world... and besides, I don't have to take the advice of my Western friends about my versions of Fetuccine or Bourguignon. It's my choice whether to take their advice or not. Just as it is my choice to add, say, harimirch to those recipes if I feel like it.

The point is that I'm in control... my kitchen, my tastebuds. I'm in control because I'm firmly grounded in who I am and where I come from. So I can like whatever I like even if it is currently associated with Western cuisine. There is no "Universalism" here.

So what, then, IS Western Universalism?

Let us imagine that the town I live in has one restaurant that is THE go-to, happening place to eat. Everybody who is anybody feels the need to be seen having a meal there. This restaurant, called "Le Frou Frou", makes what is authoritatively described as the BEST Fetuccine and Bourguignon in the whole world. Or at least, it is described as being the best, the only, the original by the gourmet writers and restaurant critics employed by every "important" media outlet.

The owners of all those media outlets happen to be college buddies with the proprietor of Le Frou Frou, but that is something you have to consciously dig around to find out. By default you tend to simply accept that it is the best, the only place to sample the "genuine" items. After all, in the lobby of Le Frou Frou there is a very ancient-looking piece of framed parchment describing how the owner's ancestor was a nobleman who came over to the United States as an aide to General Lafayette in the 1700s. You can't argue with history when it is presented so authentically, right there in front of you.

But I can't simply go to Le Frou Frou and order Bourguignon a la carte. They have decorum there, monsieur. You can only order the Menu du Jour, the courses they have planned for any given day. If I want Bourguignon I MUST also have the onion soup, rissoles, souffle and all kinds of things that I might personally not enjoy very much. But there's more. I am not allowed in Le Frou Frou unless I wear a jacket and tie. I have to make a reservation. I will be politely sneered at if I do not know the right fork to use with the fish or the salad, or what wine goes with what (even though I hate wine). For all this I am expected to pay through the nose when an astronomical bill is presented. Because Le Frou Frou is THE only place to eat, if you are anybody at all.

Moreover: experience shows me that if I go to Le Frou Frou as a brown man, with a brown family... then even if I have a reservation I will be seated in some sweltering hot corner near the kitchen. Other patrons in the main dining room might be upset by the sight of us... or more likely, the smell of us, because it is whispered that we smell of curry, which is supposedly distasteful. Le Frou Frou may have some brown employees, who will correct my French pronunciation when I place an order. They will sneer at the mess we leave at our table while carrying our plates away. But what to do? It is THE only restaurant in town that's worth going to, as everybody knows.

The problem worsens when many brown people like me, who have educated themselves and worked hard and done well at their jobs, want to feel that they have "arrived" in the town we live in... they will subject themselves willingly to the indignities of dining at Le Frou Frou just so as to gain acceptance from their colleagues and neighbours and bosses and friends. They will start wearing jackets and ties even in their daily lives, they will learn and recite what wine goes with meat or fish. They will correct my French pronunciation. They will laugh indulgently or look embarrassed if I bring up ghasshi or bendi or kootu. And they will spend ungodly amounts of money and time on bath products, manufactured by the sister-in-law of Le Frou Frou's owner, scrubbing away at every inch of their brown skin to remove every last trifling hint of that hated curry smell. They will even instruct their wives not to make "curry" (whatever the hell that is) at home.

So, high hopes for any Indian entrepreneur who wants to start an Indian restaurant. He will be lucky if he ever gets any custom beyond the ghetto taxi drivers... and his establishment can hardly be dignified with the term "restaurant". Is that stuff he serves really "food"? It "stinks". What valuable contributions could the Indians, who eat stinky curry, ever have made to global cuisine?

No, it is only the chefs of Le Frou Frou who have the superior culinary intellect needed to judiciously employ cumin or turmeric or cardamom in their bold, daring "multicultural" experiments with Nouvelle Fusion Cuisine. In time, with the Indians no longer making stinky curry at home, these spices will only appear on the shelves of Le Frou Frou's kitchen, and everybody will forget where they came from in the first place.

The reason for all this is what Rajiv Malhotra calls Difference Anxiety. The success of Western Universalism revolves entirely, 100%, on its ability to leverage the Difference Anxiety we experience (not just as Indians in the West, but also as Indians in India climbing ladders of aspiration positioned according to goals determined by the West). Malhotra has pointed out in "Being Different" that the West has a Difference Anxiety of its own, and that indeed the phenomenon of Difference Anxiety is endemic to their own worldview predicated on Synthetic Unity and History Centrism. We never exhibited this pathology in India, but like an infection, it spreads virulently from the Westerner to afflict all those he deals with.

You may think that I'm being facetious with food as an illustration here. But it's vitally important. It is with these most basic of cultural building blocks that the erosion begins, not with high-falutin' social theories or technological innovations-- those encounters come much, much later when our power to critique them has already been denuded by systematic demoralization.

And the ones most vulnerable, always, are our children-- whether in the West or crowding to Domino's Pizza in Pune and Chandigarh. Suketu Mehta, author of Maximum City which Shiv often cites, describes the moment he decided to move with his family from New York to India. One day when his 4-year-old son was eating his khichdi in their apartment building garden, a white neighbour girl came up to him, pointed at it and said "yuck". That may seem like a trivial incident, but Mehta had the perspicacity to realize that it was the moment when his Indian child first encountered a fundamental, and nearly insurmountable challenge to his very identity. Having his people's food described as an object of disgust, especially to a child in his formative years, is no less than a traumatic, elemental reversal of every value he has spent his short life growing up with.
Last edited by Rudradev on 22 Aug 2014 11:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

Rudradevji,

I see your point. What I should have written instead is: Digest the good tools of the west and not their values. Good tools being science and tech.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Rudradev wrote:
Rather than deliberately choosing to "give no credit", I would argue that there is no credit to give. In fact, free knowledge transfer between civilizations has been the norm for far longer in history than any notion of intellectual proprietorship will admit. If we adopt what is called today Western science and technology, well, it would never have evolved in the first place without our decimal number system, calculus and medicine. So... what "credit"?

The point I want to make is that none of these things constitute any part of Western Universalism. I think we might need to be clearer on what, specifically, Western Universalism is, because it certainly doesn't include science and technology as currently practiced in the West, in and of themselves.
Wah Rudradev. A hat tip to you for that masterpiece of a post.

You have highlighted something that I have been trying to point out about the way too many Indians seem to regard Western "Universalism"

Too many Indians, a few even on this thread, see Western Universalism as the root cause, the causative agent, for the high technological and economic achievements of the west. As if it was democracy, freedom and human rights that led to all that. Nothing could be further from the truth. Western universalism is an affectation and a prescription to wannabes that started AFTER the west gained technological and economic ascendancy. There is a cause and effect confusion here among perfectly intelligent people, EXACTLY akin to a cargo cult, where people believe that if you display the behaviours recommended by Western Universalism, that behaviour will somehow result in your advancement and take you to the tech and money peaks that the west has reached. And yes the disease is severe and infectious.

For those who might be wondering what "cargo Cult" means and the confusion about cause and effect in cargo cults here is a link and quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult ... rld_War_II
The most widely known period of cargo cult activity occurred among the Melanesian islanders in the years during and after World War II. A small population of indigenous peoples observed, often right in front of their dwellings, the largest war ever fought by technologically advanced nations. First, the Japanese arrived with a great deal of supplies and later the Allied forces did likewise.

The vast amounts of military equipment and supplies that both sides airdropped (or airlifted to airstrips) to troops on these islands meant drastic changes to the lifestyle of the islanders, many of whom had never seen outsiders before. Manufactured clothing, medicine, canned food, tents, weapons and other goods arrived in vast quantities for the soldiers, who often shared some of it with the islanders who were their guides and hosts. This was true of the Japanese Army as well, at least initially before relations deteriorated in most regions.

The John Frum cult, one of the most widely reported and longest-lived, formed on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. This cult started before the war, and only became a cargo cult afterwards. Cult members worship certain "Americans" (such as John Frum and Tom Navy), who they claimed had brought cargo to their island during World War II, as the spiritual entity who would provide the cargo to them in the future.[13]

With the end of the war, the military abandoned the airbases and stopped dropping cargo. In response, charismatic individuals developed cults among remote Melanesian populations that promised to bestow on their followers deliveries of food, arms, Jeeps, etc. The cult leaders explained that the cargo would be gifts from their own ancestors, or other sources, as had occurred with the outsider armies. In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day-to-day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles.[14] The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses.[citation needed]

In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of aeroplanes out of straw and cut new military-style landing strips out of the jungle, hoping to attract more aeroplanes. The cult members thought that the foreigners had some special connection to the deities and ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

Rudradev wrote: And the ones most vulnerable, always, are our children-- whether in the West or crowding to Domino's Pizza in Pune and Chandigarh. Suketu Mehta, author of Maximum City which Shiv often cites, describes the moment he decided to move with his family from New York to India. One day when his 4-year-old son was eating his khichdi in their apartment building garden, a white neighbour girl came up to him, pointed at it and said "yuck". That may seem like a trivial incident, but Mehta had the perspicacity to realize that it was the moment when his Indian child first encountered a fundamental, and nearly insurmountable challenge to his very identity. Having his people's food described as an object of disgust, especially to a child in his formative years, is no less than a traumatic, elemental reversal of every value he has spent his short life growing up with.
Several valid points - I can see your argument about definitions. But someone I know who came back to Mumbai from the West had their kids in a certain school. When the kids took a certain meat and pasta dish to school, they were made serious ridicule of by a certain community. Was even worse than the "yuck" in the incident above turned blatantly ugly, in that they were bullied into not eating something.

Rest of my points as time permits.
I fear a "Heathen with his eye open" moment here - ala SD's going the route of Islamists rejecting everything Western.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

Can someone define what is this "good" in WU? And show it is non-existent in Bharatiya lore?

Good in WU is same as the civilizational contributions of Islam to India.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote:India has 3 language formula. No need to start anything onlee
3 language formula is only a very high level thing onlee. As a statement of intent it is good.

How is it used in practice? E.g., are important works are translated between the 3 languages in timely and competent manner? Do we have a healthy translation industry?

Just as a random pick from google, for Hungarian:
http://www.translationdirectory.com/article407.htm
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote:
There is a cause and effect confusion here among perfectly intelligent people, EXACTLY akin to a cargo cult, where people believe that if you display the behaviours recommended by Western Universalism, that behaviour will somehow result in your advancement and take you to the tech and money peaks that the west has reached. And yes the disease is severe and infectious.
Key point of this thread.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by KLNMurthy »

LokeshC wrote:Rudradevji,

I see your point. What I should have written instead is: Digest the good tools of the west and not their values. Good tools being science and tech.
I think Rudradev's point was that there is nothing inherently "Western" about science and tech. If there were, Indians wouldn't have so quickly become masters, owners, and drivers of it as they have done.

I see the historical progression of this "universalism" thus:

In olden days, there was actual universalism, for the most part. Mankind was young, people didn't have a lot of knowledge, but what knowledge they had, they tended to share. Greeks and Indians travelled back and forth, making dangerous trips, worked in each others' academies, and grew the knowledge base. An older version of an "open source" universe.

Fast forward. Dark ages. Rise of Islam. Westerners (meaning those that lived West of India) turned into a bunch of rapacious, racist, enslaving monsters who became intent on developing knowledge, science and technology in parallel with crushing all creativity in the cultures, including the Indian, that they enslaved.

Fast forward again. Enslaved cultures liberate themselves, start rediscovering what's left of their creativity. Western world, with varying degrees of grudgingness, reconciles to the change, and more-or-less embraces a new version of an open source world of knowledge, but still fighting a rear-guard action in the form of Western Universalism propaganda to retain the ownership role of all the goodies of creativity.

We, the formerly and still enslaved, only have our residual creativity to dimly grasp what is going on, and like a patient under delirium struggling to not go under, fight a battle against the odds to regain consciousness.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by KLNMurthy »

A_Gupta wrote:shiv wrote:
There is a cause and effect confusion here among perfectly intelligent people, EXACTLY akin to a cargo cult, where people believe that if you display the behaviours recommended by Western Universalism, that behaviour will somehow result in your advancement and take you to the tech and money peaks that the west has reached. And yes the disease is severe and infectious.
Key point of this thread.
This is a very deep human meme and the crux of all religion and art. It is not altogether wrong, though hardly applicable in every instance. If we act in a way that reflects a certain core, then in time, we would, for all practical purposes, realize that core. Performing hatha-yoga, i.e., expressing with the body an imitation of spiritual balance, would eventually generate that spiritual balance, even though it might have been better to learn the secrets of spiritual balance more directly.

The point is, that while recognizing the cargo-cult nature of our cultural behaviors, it won't do to suggest that the original cargo-culters were idiots. (In fact they were not; in less than two generations, the Papua-New Guineans reversed the gaze, producing anthropologists who did research on the behavior of New yorkers on the subway system). In the absence of information about cargo is generated and how flying airplanes are able to bring it to them, their approach of creating symbol of airplanes etc. represents a very creditable effort (although it was wrong of course) to understand and control the process.

What is wrong with our own cargo-culters is not that they are cargo-culters, but that they make everyone think that they are actually knowledgeable about the details of how the knowledge-cargo is generated and disseminated. It is the lying that is the problem, not the ignorance.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

KLNMurthy wrote: What is wrong with our own cargo-culters is not that they are cargo-culters, but that they make everyone think that they are actually knowledgeable about the details of how the knowledge-cargo is generated and disseminated. It is the lying that is the problem, not the ignorance.
Hard to disagree. :)
Ignorance, we like to believe, is curable.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

KLNMurthy wrote:
I think Rudradev's point was that there is nothing inherently "Western" about science and tech. If there were, Indians wouldn't have so quickly become masters, owners, and drivers of it as they have done.
Not claiming credit, but I myself have said that multiple times on this very thread :). I have also said multiple times on this thread that people mis-attribute the current snapshot of the western values (liberalism, materialism, "freedom") and WU as the CAUSE of their technological and commercial superiority over the rest of the world. These two originated independently, for entirely different reasons and WU is a moving goal post. Now coming to this chain in this thread, since this started from my initial quote of "digestion of the good of WU", let me clarify:

What I meant to write was, tools developed by anybody, anywhere can be used by anyone else, anywhere else once that person understands the whys and hows of the tools. No one knows, or cares, who invented the spear, bow and arrow, the wheel or agriculture. Yet when they suddenly "need" to do something that would need those tools, they would not hesitate to use them.

There is no "property" in "intellectual property": Intellectual Property is another WU design created to maintain technological superiority. Breaking that by developing an alternative ecosystem should be THE first priority for us. That is the essence of what I meant to write, and in my hurry to agree with a poster what came out was digest the "good of WU".

People who mistake western "lifestyle" as the root cause of western technological and commercial superiority, are the cargo-culters. They are material and intellectual slaves of the west, and if we decide to "develop" in that direction we will always be a 100 steps behind the west.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

KLNMurthy wrote:
This is a very deep human meme and the crux of all religion and art. It is not altogether wrong, though hardly applicable in every instance. If we act in a way that reflects a certain core, then in time, we would, for all practical purposes, realize that core. Performing hatha-yoga, i.e., expressing with the body an imitation of spiritual balance, would eventually generate that spiritual balance, even though it might have been better to learn the secrets of spiritual balance more directly.
In fact a child copying his mothers actions is the prototype cargo cult behaviour, but the key difference is that the mother's actions are honest and complete and do not hide or disregard any action that is essential to reach the desired end result.

The case of Western Universalism is a dishonest prescription that has completely sidelined and hidden all the important and game-changing behaviours used by the west to attain wealth and early tech competence in the colonial era. Racism, a sense of racial superiority, the permission to loot, enslave and kill the other have all been essential components of true universalism that led to widespread wealth leading to social change that enabled the education and freedom of innovation of a lot more people than was possible before wealth came by. This requires a brief study of history from the viewpoint of the colonized. And guess what, the colonized are branded as "having no history tradition" :D - and we Indians have swallowed this piece of fiction told to us by someone else and still disregard Indian texts and social memes that do exist or at least view them with suspicion since "real history" was recorded by the west. For us. This is now "universal knowledge"

Western Universalism does not promote behaviour that leads to wealth or technological competence by itself. It promotes only behaviour that was adopted by the west after everything settled down, all the internecine European wars were fought and done with and everyone became wealthy and insanely industrialized to make war materiel as part of WW1 and WW2. It was the old behaviours of racism and looting that ultimately led to the world wars and the west naturally seeks to promote behaviour that preserves their status, and discourages behaviour that might upset it.

Should we in India reconsider using racial supremacy memes and looting as a tactic? We should not discard it just because the west has recently sidelined such behaviour under the banner "Universalism". It would go against our cultural ethos to simply discard even debating and thinking about such things. The west that now discourages colour consciousness, racism, looting and enslavement under the banner of neo-universalism used all those things to their advantage. That behaviour, after all, was the original universalism, all brushed under the carpet for cargo culters.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Causes of the Industrial Revolution
Why was Britain the first country to industrialize? This change, which occurred between 1750 and 1830, happened because conditions were perfect in Britain for the Industrial Revolution. Having used wood for heat instead of coal, Britain was left with large deposits of coal remaining to fuel the new ideas. Any raw supplies Britain itself did not have could be provided by its many colonies. These colonies also provided captive markets for the abundance of new goods provided by the industrial revolution (Gernhard).
Guess what? It wasn't "Universalism". Blow me down. Whoda thunk it
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Which came first? Trade or colonization?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/em ... e_01.shtml
To what extent were these changes between 1688 and 1815 a case of trade stimulating empire, or of empire stimulating trade? The answer is that trade and empire went hand in hand, with a symbiotic relationship to each other.

Growing overseas commerce with colonies stimulated merchants to provide ships, as well as goods for expanding settler societies. The slave trade also became a vehicle for establishing an empire of slavery in the Caribbean and southern American colonies, and emigrants sailed to the colonies in search of better material conditions. They also, in some cases, had to emigrate to escape religious persecution.

Rapid population growth in 18th-century North America provided a large market for British exports. In the quarter century before the American Revolution, British foreign trade changed its commodity composition to provide a wider range of textiles, notably linen and cotton fabrics.

This was in addition to a range of metalware and hardware, fabricated to meet the demands of a burgeoning colonial population with less advanced industrial processes than were current in the home country, and with some restrictions on their own manufacturing.

The answer is that trade and empire went hand in hand...

The slave trade stimulated British manufacturing production by the derived demand for goods such as plantation utensils, and clothing needed for slaves and estates. Colonies became linked to the metropolis by complex bilateral and multilateral shipping routes.
After the Royal African Company's monopoly was rescinded in 1698, the British became the largest and most efficient carriers of slaves to the New World. Private merchant houses provided the capital for this business activity, and Jamaica, the largest British slave colony, was also the wealthiest colony in the British Empire.

By 1775 Britain possessed far more land and people in the Americas than either the Dutch or the French - who were the two main northern European rivals for international power and prestige. The East India Company's trade also still flourished at this time, and greater settlement by the British in Bengal occurred after c.1765.
But but but -- doesn't Western Universalism mean no colonization, no slaves. Only trade, equality, freedom, respect for all. Anyone who swallows those values as universal values that made the west rich is a naive sepoy with a caged mind.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by johneeG »

Frequently, most deracinated non-western people(including me) pronounce judgements that western component is qualitatively superior to the corresponding non-western component. Most of the time, these pronouncements are not even made explicitly. Instead, they are assumed to be implicit axioms I.e. self-evident truths. This is very very interesting. This attitude permeates every sphere of human existence. Once western method is acknowledged as superior, it is natural that people would want to adopt it.

However, the most interesting point about this phenomenon is this:
The conclusion that the western method is superior to non-western method has been reached without adequate testing. Infact, the people have formed this opinion purely on the basis of bias, propaganda and brainwashing. The roots of this propaganda, bias, and brainwashing are in colonialism. During colonialism and imperialism, the native education systems were targetted and replaced by a western-oriented education system. The purpose of that system was to keep people loyal towards west, to make people worship west, and to make people fear west. In various countries, this happened. In Bhaarath, 1860-1880 was the period when this was carried out systematically. Notice that this happened immediately after revolution of 1857. So, the idea of colonizers was to create a system which would not allow a redux of 1857. The colonizers were trying to remove the native systems and replace them with their own designed systems from 1815 onwards. However, this process was given much higher priority after 1857. Every native system was systamatcally and carefully purged in a targeted fashion. Ship building, textiles, maths, chemistry, medicine, architecture, astronomy, history, religion, language, ....etc. The scale of it is quite astonishing. But this is the natural modus operandi of most colonizers. Unfortunately for Bhaarath, western colonization of bhaarath was not the first colonization. There were jihadis before that. And before that, there seems to have been one more colonization by the central asians(shaakas) around 500 bce to 500 ce. So, there seems to be triple colonization of Bhaarath.

The central asians seem to have used buddhism to colonize bhaarath. The next colonizers used malsI. The next colonizers used x-ism. Now, the latest version seems to be using 'science'.

Anyway, going back to the main point: people are made to assume that the western method is implicitly superior than the corresponding non-western method. If people reached this opinion after due testing, then there would be no problem at all. However, people hardly ever test before assuming that west is superior.

Ex: ayurvedha and modern western medicine have been mentioned in this thread. Now, most people would agree that modern western medicine is superior to ayurvedha. Some people may concede that ayurvedha has some ggod qualities too, but even they would agree that modern western medicine is superior than ayurvedha. This is the basic symptom of cultural slavery. The reason for calling this as slavery is: the opinion that western method is superior has been reached without tests or research, without any cost-benefit analysis. Has there ever been a systematic study of ayurvedha vs western modern medicine (including side affects on patients and environment apart from cost of manufacturing and distribution) in various time periods (3 days, 3 weeks, 3months, 3 yrs, 30 yrs, 90 yrs)?

If there is no such research, then how do people conclude that modern western medicine is superior to ayrurvedha? One has tob remember that western medicine has been supported by its govt, corporations, propaganda (including education system). On the other hand, non-western systems have been neglected or even targetedly purged. So, western modern medicine is at its greatest strength while non-western systems are at their weakest. Even then, atleast, people should study both the systems along with all the costs and benefits (direct and indirect, long-term and short-term), then if they conclude that western method is superior, then atleast, there would be a pretence of justice. Rightnow, people simply assume that west is superior and there is no more study or discussion. This shows the extent of cultural slavery.
Last edited by johneeG on 23 Aug 2014 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

johneeG wrote:Even then, atleast, people should both the systems along with all the costs and benefits (direct and indirect, long-term and short-term), then if they conclude that western method is superior, then atleast, there would be a pretence of justice. Rightnow, people simply assume that west is superior and there is no more study or discussion. This shows the extent of cultural slavery.
I know a particular rare blood disorder, in a friends kids, where Western medical practitioners in the West suggested taking a particular
Ayurvedic medicine that has a positive effect on such cases. The kids have had many healthy years under their belt today albeit with
diet and other restrictions.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

Divergent
In a world divided by factions based on virtues, Tris learns she's Divergent and won't fit in. When she discovers a plot to destroy Divergents, Tris and the mysterious Four must find out what makes Divergents dangerous before it's too late.
Teenage flick, but without giving away anything worth a watch... if anyone is interested, I can post my thoughts on it sometime...
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by svenkat »

Some random points.
1)ramanaji has dismissed WU as modern version of universalisms like greek,roman,christian,islamic etc. Sri Krishna says mango abduls look upto shreshtas.And the wests dazzling superiority in military and technology did sway people including the brahmanas.Let us not forget the mercenary Bengal army had a substantial brahmana presence from UP.rsangramji is right,humans(brahmanas or dalits) in general look for creature comforts.In the case of West,the "Universalism' was an 'irresisitible' combination of ideas,technology,knowledge,creature comforts,conveniences,promise of physical and social mobility and military superiority.
2)I think some aspects of WU appeal to hindus as yuga dharma.I will cite two examples-dalit rights and respect for tamizh linguistic sensitivities.Dalits are at the bottom of the heap in Hindu society and a conscious effort was made to empower them.OTOH,tamils are numerically the majority in TN and European interaction provided the impetus for a 'renaissance of sorts' and rediscovery of tamizh heritage.Hindu India had to respond to human rights and group rights.Western Universalism touched a chord among hindus who have always respected pluralism and basic human rights.I will just cite the sensibility of long time posters like Gusji(or ArmenT or Stan) who have little interest in a smrithi based narrative or hindi=hindu world view but otherwise share the earthy,humane,common sense based hindu worldview minus the mumbo jumbo.for a minute I am not dissing the orthodox view,but 'orthodoxy' has severe limitations in kali yuga.
3)Ofcourse,Western successes cannot be linked to democracy and human rights alone but at a certain point,there has been great improvement in the life of the common gora in US/UK.
4)Propogaandu is not unique to US/UK.US/UK has no interest in solving world problems.For them,WU is a strategy to augment hard power with soft power.
5)Hindu leaders have sought yuga dharma in WU as a framework for the political process/apparatus in India.To the brahiminical leaders,it seemed natural for english to 'take the place of sanskrit' as the language of elite.To be honest,there seems to be no other framework for the present.For instance,I find a profound divide between the tamizh and kannada people which is at present unbridgeable without a brahminical framework which is now anathema in India.The Universalist framework atleast maintains the status quo and peace by creating a minimalist framework.Its bad,but a stop gap arrangement until credible solutions for knowledge dissemination,skill generation,environmental sustainability,employment generation,empowerment and provision of goods and services emerge.I agree with rsangramji here.Its easy to bash up WU,but whats the alternative?WU is so critical for the stability of Indian state in the short run.Even in the future,some yuga dharma aspects will be non-negotiable.
6)Its wrong to think WU has not been challenged.The very emergence of DMK/Lalu/Mayawati is rejection of congress leadership which has been the most enthusiastic/hypocritical supporters of 'Universalism' in India.Some credit is due to Congress for putting in place systems which questioned the congress version of WU.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

^^^ Again several good points (even if I disagree with some of them and agree with several of them).

Indians in general (especially ones of a couple of generations around ours) have been piss poor in understanding social sciences of the West.
The ITvity, heavy duty tech, scientists, doctor folks for example have no clue that the guy who came up with "System of Record" and
"System of Engagement" is a Doctorate in English Literature. Never mind that vc funding and such move on words of such people.
Similarly see Steve Jobs' commencement speech at Stanford... especially his exposition later on intuition versus rational minds.
If the West is honoring "servants" and forgetting the "gift," the East is aping those "servants" and killing its "gift" cluelessly!
Therefore, he should have taken his quote one step further - the "servants" are trying to destroy the "gift" in their ignorance of its genius!

While this and overlap generations of Indians are overwhelmed and overawed by the west in terms of Science & Technology and material progress,
those few who make the false claim of having risen above it, do not realize that they live (like you correctly point out) in a WU driven framework.
Owe allegiance to a declarative - Constitution, have no sense of history in terms of reforms from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to WU version of the
declarations in Hindu Personal Law and the deep damaged done to their conventions. To these folks, Smrithi is all mumbo-jumbo.
I remain neither orthodox nor traditional, but to borrow Steve Jobs - hungry and foolish!

Orthodoxy, traditions, modern, post-modern, etc. are all Western words in a Western language that have a certain context in Social Sciences.
These words have meaning within that framework and reflects on a particular set of experiences and learning that they have come about.
The science types with feeble social science minds use these words frivolously at their own peril!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

All nations that industrialized between 1800 and 1900 universally benefited from the slave trade, and colonies were a source of raw material and a captive market for finished goods.

The universal rules that governed the industrialization and wealth creation from 1800 to 1900 were inequality, slavery, racism and looting. Democracy, freedom, equality and human rights as they are defined today were not cited as universal values back then, even if they remained local values within western nations. Equality, and freedom were for colonizers and looters within their domains. Not for the colonized, enslaved and looted.

But now, in the 21st century (and late 20th) it is no longer possible to industrialize and become wealthy with a captive colonial market to supply raw material and sell finished products. The venerable old universalisms of yore - racism, slavery and looting are no longer admired. It is now stated that everyone is welcome to create wealth and industrialize. "Be my guest. Aaiye! Padhaariye! Build industries, import raw materials. Export finished goods and prosper" but it must be done only democratically, with respect for human equality, freedom and rights. These values are now being pushed as "universal values" after one part of the world already became wealthy by means of a completely different set of values universally applied on coloured races and colonized peoples. And remember this folks - my saying this is classified as a grievance. But it is OK to have a grievance. Freedom, remember? So I tell anyone who complains that I harbor a grievance to go fuk himself.

Of course you can industrialize and become wealthy with democracy, freedom and equality. But it is never going to be as fast as it could be if you simply looted and enslaved. And to do that you need military power. Military power is the single most important asset for looting and enslavement and the development of military power by anyone is the biggest threat to any nation that does not want to be looted or enslaved today. Western nations naturally do not want to be looted or enslaved and will try and prevent anyone from developing the military power to coerce them, even as they slow down development by pushing universal values that discourage the same looting and enslavement that they used in the past

More in the next post..
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

svenkat wrote:Its easy to bash up WU,but whats the alternative?WU is so critical for the stability of Indian state in the short run.
I think it pays to understand Western Universalism for what it is rather than that it is imagined to be.

WU is not a pet puppy or rabbit that needs to be cuddled and cared for as a complete whole. For example you cannot cut off a pet's ears or one leg saying that it does not suit you. You have to keep a pet whole. WU does not have to be kept whole. Keep what is essential and useful. Reject what is useless. Just because something about WU is objectionable it does not mean, as some people may imagine, that the whole thing is being discarded or worse, everything ""western" is being "othered". That is complete nonsense although people have gone ballistic imaging that the entire west is being rejected.

Western Universalism is a set of prescriptions of behaviour.

Western Universalism is a set of prescriptions of behaviour. This prescription is being peddled as "universally applicable" because they have now been almost universally applied in the west mostly after WWW2. It is being suggested that 'The west is advanced, wealth and developed and leads the world. So the west will lead the world in habits and behaviour. You need to copy our behavior starting with democracy, freedom and human rights"

No one is rejecting this outright, but it pays to understand that simply conforming to this behavior is NOT going to make you rich or industrialized or "developed". Also, conforming to this behaviour can actually set things back for you unless you have a mind of your own. I am only demanding that Indians have a mind of their own. I am also accusing educated Indians of slavishly following dictates of WU that they need not follow.

For example - look at how WU is "used"
India spends P on defence, Q on nuclear plants, R on satellite launch technology. But India spends only X on toilets and Y on healthcare. India has the most people without tilets and without healthcare. Therefore we prescribe that India should spend less of P, Q and R and spend more on X and Y. We are develped because we have all the toilets we need and the best healthcare. Leave the space tech and weaponry to people who already have toilets and health
If you are Indian and you take this prescription without a critical look at the snake oil being peddled, you would be an idiot. We will industrialize as rapidly as we can. We will build toilets and provide healthcare at our own rate balancing our needs with our resources. Never forget that racism and inequality and slavery were all values that led to wealth and industrialization. Anyone with a grouse would do well to remember that we have not gone on that path - although it remains an attractive path.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by svenkat »

Hakim Sahib,
No disagreements at all.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

http://www.manushi.in/articles.php?arti ... _izpruwdow
The age old Indian conception of universality, is described by Tagore as the ideal of the spiritual unity of man.’ (‘The way to Unity’, English Writings...vol iii.p. 465) or “vasudhaiva kutumbukam”. Under this concept the whole world (consisting of Universal Self, Nature and the self) is a family and is very different from the cosmopolitan concept of Diogenes of Sinope 412BC, who said: “Asked where he came from, he answered: I am a citizen of the world (kosmopolitês).” The latter is just a broader view of particularism and does not in any way prove one’s identity as a member of a family but only as a citizen of the world (state). The concept of the “world as a family” is quite different from the West’s notion of a global order or a global village, which is only the relentless process of the westernization of the globe. The terms and conditions for living and participating in the life of such a global village are laid down by the west, for their own benefit and must be adhered to in order to remain in it.
In order to contest the universalist boasts of Europe, Tagore on February 10, 1937, composed his poem on another continent, “Africa”, toward the end of his long and creative life in literature. It was a searing sarcasm directed at the false universalist claims of an unnamed Europe. The sanctimonious hypocrisy of the colonizer stood in stark opposition to the wretched abjection of the colonized. African writer Chinua Achebe in his essay on ‘Colonialist Criticism’ says that in the nature of things, the work of a western writer is automatically assumed to be informed by universalism. It is only others who must strain to achieve it. Fredric Jameson’s statement which is no doubt inadequate and slanted, describes the third world literary works as national allegories, which have nothing to do with universal cosmopolitanism. And so Chinua Achebe says that he should like the word “universal’ banned altogether from the discussions on African (or to add Indian) literature until such time as people cease to use it as a synonym for the narrow, self-serving parochialism of Europe, until their horizon extends to include all the world.
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

The video link below has been lifted from the Packee thread. Listen to Shourie for just 30 seconds from the point that I have linked - it is nearly the end of the clip.

The clip illustrates how we Indians have done a cargo cut interpretation of western universalism dictates in which models of human rights and justice have been misapplied in areas where our action should be different. We are indoctrinated to believe that if the west tells us that we should deal with terrorism with the terrorists' human rights in mind that is what will make us "civilized like the west".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 8C6Q#t=451
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Once again, I appeal to BRFites to think. Think actively if you are reading or hearing something that is right or wrong. Argue and debate if need be.

On an impulse I looked for "Human Rights" on Googal.

http://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/wh ... ights.aspx
Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, whatever our nationality, place of residence, sex, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, language, or any other status. We are all equally entitled to our human rights without discrimination. These rights are all interrelated, interdependent and indivisible.

Universal human rights are often expressed and guaranteed by law, in the forms of treaties, customary international law , general principles and other sources of international law. International human rights law lays down obligations of Governments to act in certain ways or to refrain from certain acts, in order to promote and protect human rights and fundamental freedoms of individuals or groups.


It says there are laws to promote and protect human rights. Great, one might think.

What are laws? Laws are rules that you must follow.

Now when it comes to human rights, has anyone checked whether the laws tell you what you can do? Boss, you are being informed that there are laws that protect your rights. Your rights are what you can do. So what laws tell you what you are allowed to do? For example I am looking for a law that will allow someone to masturbate while smoking a joint whenever and wherever he may choose to do that. This is not an action that is harmful to anyone.

You can spend your life looking but you will not find laws telling you what you CAN do. Laws will only tell you what you CANNOT do. All laws, including human rights laws are laws that restrict your actions, not promote your action. Your "freedom" is only freedom inside a fence that the law builds around you. But guess what? Look into your own mind and you will find that you have been taught that laws are protecting your freedom. They are not. They are restricting your rights and your freedom to do as you please. It's funny, but it is the truth.

Does that mean that everyone should rebel against laws? Let me try and answer that in the following way.

Look at the same issue from two different viewpoints:

1. Imagine that you were born on an island that you inherit. You are the only person on that Island, but you can come and go as you please. You have supplies coming from somewhere. You have employees whom you pay for services. But ultimately, it is your personal Island. What can you do on this Island? Technically anything. You can do absolutely anything as long as what you do does not adversely affect someone outside the Island. That is real freedom for you. Your "rights" are rights to do absolutely anything. Any action that you take on that Island is your right.

2. Now think about your own rights what can you do? If you examine the things that you can do, they are invariably restricted by laws. I am free to travel. But if I have a car, I must have a licence. Then I must drive on a particular side of the road. I cannot drive anywhere. I cannot simply drive into territory marked as "private". I cannot drive across all international borders. All your rights are restricted rights. All rights are restricted by laws.

Ultimately ALL rights are restrictions of your actions by laws.

For example, take Rudradev's hypothetical Frou Frou restaurant. Can you go in there with a dhoti and kurta? If you try, you will be kicked out at short notice. Why? Because there are laws about private property and rules to be followed within that private domain. If you thought you were free to dress in a dhoti and kurta, you were wrong. So your right to dress as you please is restricted. And this is simply about dressing. You are not even asking to masturbate while smoking a joint at Frou Frou (which may be allowed if you are a certain type of person)

Coming back to the question of "Should you rebel against all laws?" The answer is really that you should rebel against , and not blindly accept, laws that claim to give you rights by actually taking away your rights. We have discussed this exact topic hundreds of times on BRF without realizing it. When some moron speaks of "human rights" of terrorists, that person is ignoring the rights of the terrorized. When you speak of rights of Kashmiris, you cannot leave out rights of other Indians, including Pandits who have been thrown out.

But why do we, who are so educated and aware, keep using terms like "Rule of law" and "rights"? Most often these words are used to condemn something that Indians do. For at least some of us, it is a blind copy paste of Western Universalism - that is behaviour that we are told is "correct" by the west. We simply do not think about it. We constantly curse Indians for not following the "rule of law" - but have we asked if a law created by the Brits is actually restricting the rights of Indians living in an Indian context? The question of animals on the road in India, and 4 scooters abreast on one lane falls into this genre.

The west is welcome to promote anything as universalism. You are a jackass if you swallow it unthinkingly and worse, try to promote it as if it is uniformly good.
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