India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Surya
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Surya » 22 Aug 2014 17:30

err you seriously cannot compare a conversion training of a already qualified pilot to basic training to become a pilot?

Victor
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 22 Aug 2014 20:42

Based on what NaMo told them, HAL/DRDO/NAL should be working on the replacement of the Pilatus, not a Pilatus competitor, and make sure to coordinate every step with the IAF. When complete, such a plane should be flying well before the Pilatus is retired.

Actually, HAL should be forbidden to do any development work and concentrate solely on production because the two require completely different structures and cultures, like weightlifting and sprinting. The only development HAL should be responsible for would be the jugaad type which is always needed in any production floor for feedback and actual production. All core aeronautical development work should be the sole domain of NAL which should be structured and funded accordingly.

dinesh_kimar
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Aug 2014 21:38

^ I beg to disagree. Historically, R&D with shop floor input is more successful model than without. Also, forget abt "superior", HAL cannot build a plane half as good as Pilatus. To break the vicious cycle, perhaps HTT-36/40 TD programme can be sanctioned, to iron out all flaws in design of the airframe, integration of foreign piston engine (if HAL wanted a local powerplant, they should have started in 1999-2000 timeframe), flight characteristics, reliability , MTBF, etc......

The part of your post abt interaction with IAF and launch well before Pilatus is retired is spot on, though.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Aug 2014 22:05

I was reading abt Vijayanta MBT - apparently India developed versions like ARV, Bridge Layer, SP Catapult and even a 155mm was tried out. More powerful versions with 780 hp engine was built. This was level of Armoured Vehicle development in the 80s. Today, 500+ T-72 ARVs is bought from Poland , and BEML has been citing "difficulties" for many years. Even college kids projects have more sophistication than "tank mounted crane system".

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:07

Victor wrote:Actually, HAL should be forbidden to do any development work and concentrate solely on production because the two require completely different structures and cultures, like weightlifting and sprinting.


So Boeing, EADS etc only do manufacture and not R&D. :lol:

Dinesh Kumar wrote:^ I beg to disagree. Historically, R&D with shop floor input is more successful model than without.


Exactly. Instead we have half baked pronouncements to continue the earlier idiocy of GOI of forcing manufacturers to be jugaad types onlee.

It seems the experts pronouncing gyaan on what manufacturers should do have zero idea about real world manufacturing.

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:10

dinesh_kumar wrote:I was reading abt Vijayanta MBT - apparently India developed versions like ARV, Bridge Layer, SP Catapult and even a 155mm was tried out. More powerful versions with 780 hp engine was built. This was level of Armoured Vehicle development in the 80s. Today, 500+ T-72 ARVs is bought from Poland , and BEML has been citing "difficulties" for many years. Even college kids projects have more sophistication than "tank mounted crane system".


Its called artificial scarcity, DK. The method is straightforward, make deliberately harmful policy decisions ("HAL shouldn't do R&D, poor nations only do license manufacture"), fill company boards with bureaucrats who shoot down far reaching proposals ("why should HAL do research on FBW, rich nations do so"), make sure procurement + decision making is pliable ("this local proposal only deserves 10 crore even if actual budget should be 10x") and then promptly announce imports + TOT.
DPSUs have been used as a way to line up forex "transfers" if you get it.
I don't know how old you are, but when I first "realized" this, a greybeard mentioned it was the "way" ever since jeeps in the 1960's.
http://www.firstpost.com/india/if-vectr ... 62632.html

All this "India is a peaceful countree" stuff is bakwaas.
A clan ran this nation as a fiefdom and used every avenue to enrich themselves.

member_23694
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23694 » 22 Aug 2014 22:24

dinesh_kumar wrote:Historically, R&D with shop floor input is more successful model than without


You could be right , then my request to HAL would be different. HAL has more than 50 years of experience in aircrafts, and currently has a turnover of around 15000 Crore , profit around 3000 crore and mentions that it spends around 10% of sale in R& D which works out to be around 1500 Crore per year.
With these kind of experience and finances, should we not challenge HAL for something better rather than setting benchmark in terms of a basic trainer .
My understanding is that we should have a framework like :
- Basic Trainer, IJT, Avro replacement, MTA - Pvt partner having a JV with any global major
- Hive off HAL helicopter division with 49% share to private partner (local or global). It should fetch a good sum considering the available products and orderbook
- Parent HAL focus only on Tejas, MMRCA and FGFA. HAL future R&D activities along with DRDO focuses only on manned/unmanned combat aircrafts.
There could be better alternatives than the above but the basic point is that the existing HAL structure has not been able to provide the desired result [for whatever reason and whoever responsible, does not matter now]. Probably a leaner , meaner and focused HAL with a definite guidelines could be the answer

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:27

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... s-industry

HAL reaches out to Indian electronics industry
By SP's Special Correspondent

August 19, 2014: With several development projects on its hands, as opposed to a skewed order book of license-produced aircraft, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is making a concerted effort to ramp up cooperation with India's electronics industry, both large firms as well as (and especially) small and medium enterprises (SMEs) to build a more viable production and supply base for its currently and future projects. In HAL's words, it is a proactive approach for a stronger aeronautics ecosystem. With life cycle costing set to be paradigmatic in all future procurements and assessments, HAL has deduced that avionics will be crucial to life cycle costs of aircraft systems it develops (These would include communications, flight controls, electrical systems, sensors, utilities management etc and mission roles like navigation and guidance, surveillance , stores/weapons delivery, command & control).

Through a series of meetings with industry that commenced this month, HAL has made a clarion call to industry to step up and get involved for a field of opportunities in avionics system design, avionics LRU design & development, electronic functional module development, board design, fabrication & assembly, test rig /integration rig development, crucial sensors development, data bus and display devices, software development, integration & testing.

"Presently over 40% of an aircraft's cost is on avionics," says a top HAL official who was part of recent presentations. HAL has set out a roadmap, populating it with opportunities and specific areas where cooperation and initiative is desperately necessary. The focus will be on line-replaceable units (LRUs), sensors eg. Radar, Inertial Navigation, RADALT, IR, display systems eg. MFD , SMFD, HUD, Smart HUD, data bus eg. 1553B, AFDX, ARINC, 1760, Video bus STANAG, DVI, PAL, Control, Command & Communication eg. HOTAS, VHF/UHF , SDR , SATCOM, Electronic Warfare eg. RWR, SPJ, CMDS, MAWS and high performance computers eg. Mission, Display & weapons computers.

While indigenous LRUs available already include radio altimeter, IFF, VOR/ILS, TACAN, MFD, SMFD, HUD, 1553B, ARINC, V/UHF Communication systems, radar warning receivers, high performance computers, mission computers, air data computers, AFCC, solid state flight data recorders and digital map generators, HAL has outlined that there continues to be a major dependency on foreign OEMs for fire control radars, inertial navigation, software defined radio, electro-optic sensors (LDP), health monitoring systems and, crucially, auto pilot.

HAL currently has three dedicated R&D centres focused on electronics and avionics: the Hyderabad-based Strategic Electronics R&D Centre for communications, radars, radio navigation, embedded computers, etc, the Bangalore-based Mission and Combat R&D Centre for integrated avionics systems, application software, mission computers, etc. and the Korwa-based R&D Centre for flight data recorders, display and cockpit control systems, etc.

HAL has decided to mince no words with industry. Outlining its experience in dealing with Indian electronics industry, it says that capability exists in electronic product development – including complete systems and modules like including cockpit displays, computers, recorders, RF units, air data units, video modules, interface units, etc, manufacture for prototype and production batches, test rigs and other ground support equipment (GSE) development and fabrication, software services and engineering services, HAL still holds that continuous support to vendors (“Hand holding”) is needed for specific domain knowledge, quality requirement, testing, documentation, etc. "HAL is required to interface between the vendor and certification agencies, regularly gets products and test Rigs developed and supplied through Indian vendors: Complete electronic subsystems have been developed by Indian vendors for many projects (Jaguar DARIN-II and DARIN-III Upgrades, IJT, ALH, LCH, etc.), and almost all test/integration rigs are developed and supplied by private vendors.

HAL lists the challenges faced by SMEs as (1) domain knowledge and translating user requirements into design parameters, (2) insufficient knowledge of the certification requirements and process, (3) inadequate availability of facilities (especially for processing and testing), (4) long development cycle and production in small batches spread over years, (5) competitive pricing, tight schedule, stringent advance payment, (6) long term supply and product support concerns and (7) inadequate experienced man-power and dependency on individuals.

The company has therefore provided a workable roadmap starting this month, proposing vendors’ meets held at Bangalore and other HAL locations to familiarize the vendors with the current and futuristic requirements and procedures and to provide a forum for interactions on common issues.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:40

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... -BrahMos-M

Big boost for BrahMos-M
By SP's Special Correspondent

August 19, 2014: With the BrahMos Block II missile proving itself well during trials in multiple engagement modes, the focus has shifted to the next variants, with the incoming BrahMos CEO S.K. Mishra signalling that one of his priorities will be the BrahMos-M (now, officially the BrahMos-Mini), a compact, but fully capable version of the original cruise missile. Planned for operational induction by 2017, the BrahMos-M could find applications across dimensions, including air launch. It is anticipated that a tripartite agreement between NPO Mashinostroyenia, BrahMos Aerospace and DRDO will be finalised, if not signed, when Russian President Vladimir Putin arrives on an official visit to Delhi in December this year. "My priorities will be indenisation of missile development in India, capacity building for larger production, meeting production orders ahead of schedule," says Mr Mishra. On his watch, BrahMos Corp. will also conduct the first 'demonstration launches' of the BrahMos-A from a Su-30MKI early next year, followed by further tests of the underwater launched BrahMos, being developed for the P75I submarine line. The focus also shifts qualitatively now to the hypersonic BrahMos-II. Mishra's other big priority will be to move BrahMos into the export regime, so far throttled by foreign policy concerns.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 22:44

The stuff NAL is doing for Brahmos builds experience for Nirbhay, ALA, ARM & the host of Air launched missile programs underway.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... any-firsts
BrahMos-A wind tunnel test completed, many firsts
By SP's Special Correspondent

August 19, 2014: The Bangalore-based National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) has carried out crucial drop tests of the air-launched BrahMos-A from a Su-30MKI fighter model in a 1.5 m Low Speed Wind Tunnel to "estimate the actual trajectory of the missile at different conditions of the aircraft in a record time". NAL says it has also successfully conducted the captive and isolated strain gauge tests to generate highly accurate data needed for the BrahMos-A in Tri-sonic wind tunnels. According to NAL, dynamic store separation trials in a wind tunnel have been successfully conducted for the first time in the country. Ground trials of the Su-30MKI modified for the BrahMos mission will commence shortly at Nashik. If executed successfully, the BrahMos will be test-fired from a Su-30MKI in the firing ranges of the Thar Desert by early next year. NAL is also standing by to provide wind tunnel proof services on the BrahMos-Mini and BrahMos-II, which has already begun.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 23:00

Cold Start...

DRDO's new embankment blasting device successfully tested
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit: DRDO

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/images/BBD1.jpg
http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/images/BBD2.jpg

August 19, 2014: The DRDO has conducted user-assisted technical trials of the Bund Blasting Device Mk.II, the new improved version of the indigenous man-portable embankment blasting device, designed and developed by the Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory in Chandigarh. The successful tests were carried out at the Ramgarh range by the Army's 120 Engineering Regiment. The new version of the BBD is said to be double as effective as the Mk.I version, requiring half the devices for the same effect. The system consists of a hollow charge initiation device and the main HE- filled projectile attached to a rocket motor. The hollow charge on initiation creates a deep pilot hole. The HE projectile on entering this hole detonates, creating a big crater, fulfilling the requirement. To remove/lower the height of bunds, an array of such devices is fired to get the desired result within the shortest possible time, according to DRDO literature on the technology. A few more tests are lined up before the Mk.II is declared operational and handed over to the armed forces and production agencies.

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... lly-tested

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 23:02

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... ing-system

NAL-Army co-develop marksmanship training system
By SP's Special Correspondent

August 19, 2014: The Indian Army and National Aerospace Laboratory have come together to solve an age-old nuisance: the primitive type of marksmanship training, the manual system which involves the marksman firing shots at a target and then having to walk up to the target, sometimes more than 300 metres, and identifying the accuracy of his shot. The Experimental Aerodynamics Division at National Aerospace Laboratories, Bangalore and the Indian Army’s Simulator Development Division, Secunderabad, have put their heads together and developed a state-of-the-art Location of Bullet on Target System (LOBOTS) named DHVANI (Detection and Hit Visualization using Acoustic ‘N’-wave Identification) to ease the process of marksmanship training by by accurately determining the location of bullet impact and providing real-time feedback to the shooter. According to NAL, "Marksmanship training systems available from advanced countries for sale are mostly based on 1980s technology. Further they have exorbitant cost of ownership since they are not customized for the Indian environment and necessitate expensive after-sales service due to the black-box approach of the manufacturers. The need was to develop a modern indigenous system which is tailor made to meet the requirements of the Indian Army at a cost lower than similar systems available elsewhere without compromising the performance. The system has undergone rigorous field trials at Army ranges in Bangalore, Secunderabad and Infantry School Mhow. The formal handing over of DHVANI by Director CSIR-NAL to Commandant SDD Secunderabad took place on July 03, 2014."

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... ing-system

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Aug 2014 23:04

Now for news on the new APFSDS

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... jun-tested

New ammunition for MBT Arjun tested
By SP's Special Correspondent

August 19, 2014: Trials of new 120mm penetration-cum-blast ordnance for the Arjun main battle tank have been successfully conducted at the DRDO's Proof and Experimental Establishment in Odisha. According to DRDO, "The neutralisation capabilities of MBT Arjun against hard and soft targets have been improved by designing new ammunitions, viz, PCB for hard concrete target, so that it can be effectively used in not only against field fortification and LoC bunkers but also in future urban warfare. The PCB projectile causes damage to the target by penetrating the protective layer of the target followed by internal blast. The proposed projectile has the capability to defeat light or moderately protected targets like LoC bunkers, administrative buildings, field fortifications." The new ammunition has the ability to penetrate a 500 mm (? SPs may have typo'ed this) thick RCC wall at a range of more than 1.5 km. The projectile contains 2.6 kg high explosive and can engage a 1m x 1m target at a range of 1 km. The DRDO hopes to operationalise the ammunition by next year and hand over consignments to the two Arjun MBT tank regiments already in service wit the Army in Rajasthan.

Victor
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 22 Aug 2014 23:21

Karan M wrote:
Victor wrote:Actually, HAL should be forbidden to do any development work and concentrate solely on production because the two require completely different structures and cultures, like weightlifting and sprinting.


So Boeing, EADS etc only do manufacture and not R&D. :lol:

Does Boeing or LM have a DRDO and NAL with wasteful overlapping functions to muddy the waters and provide deniability? No. As private businesses, one of their main responsibilities is to maintain efficiency and eliminate overlaps. (EADS is a multinational group of companies and doesn't fit the picture). As I have always maintained, none of this stuff should be in the hands of a corrupt centralized bureaucracy that is essentially ignorant and answerable to no one but if we are stuck with these neanderthals for the medium term because of labor issues, we need to at least get rid of the black holes.

Dinesh Kumar wrote:^ I beg to disagree. Historically, R&D with shop floor input is more successful model than without.

Exactly. Instead we have half baked pronouncements to continue the earlier idiocy of GOI of forcing manufacturers to be jugaad types onlee.

If you cared to look a little more closely at my post, I did in fact mention the need fo active "feedback" from the floor to what is essentially an R&D "subsidiary" (National Aerospace Laboratories) of HAL/ISRO/DRDO while each also has its own R&D aeronautical activity. What a waste.

The key question here is why have a NAL at all? Or even a DRDO dabbling in aeronautics? Are these job-creating social schemes or institutions that are responsible for urgent defense needs? It is this type of fuzziness that resulted in DRDO (research) slapping together a phyter only to find that it was not suitable for mass production (HAL). Whether we like it or not, after 30 years of effort LCA Mk1 is good only for Republic Day flypasts. If IAF is lucky, it will get a usable LCA Mk2 in 10 years. This is not a system that should be acceptable to a country with some of the most dangerous enemies in the world.

It seems the experts pronouncing gyaan on what manufacturers should do have zero idea about real world manufacturing.

I don't think you realize how juvenile this sounds.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby RoyG » 23 Aug 2014 02:07

Karan M wrote:
Victor wrote:Actually, HAL should be forbidden to do any development work and concentrate solely on production because the two require completely different structures and cultures, like weightlifting and sprinting.


So Boeing, EADS etc only do manufacture and not R&D. :lol:

Dinesh Kumar wrote:^ I beg to disagree. Historically, R&D with shop floor input is more successful model than without.


Exactly. Instead we have half baked pronouncements to continue the earlier idiocy of GOI of forcing manufacturers to be jugaad types onlee.

It seems the experts pronouncing gyaan on what manufacturers should do have zero idea about real world manufacturing.


Right right, and you do...All hail Karanji, PSU prophet.

Indranil
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2014 02:28

Friendly reminder. Discuss the posts vigorously, not the posters.

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 23 Aug 2014 11:04

Victor wrote:Does Boeing or LM have a DRDO and NAL with wasteful overlapping functions to muddy the waters and provide deniability? No. As private businesses, one of their main responsibilities is to maintain efficiency and eliminate overlaps. (EADS is a multinational group of companies and doesn't fit the picture). As I have always maintained, none of this stuff should be in the hands of a corrupt centralized bureaucracy that is essentially ignorant and answerable to no one but if we are stuck with these neanderthals for the medium term because of labor issues, we need to at least get rid of the black holes.


The kind of stuff that you write makes me wonder whether you just post for the love of hearing yourself pontificate. So Boeing or LM don't compete with each other? What happens to overlapping functions there? The sheer amount of redundancy in the US MIC dwarfs anything in the Indian system by far, and yet you insist that India should not have the same. So because HAL has R&D, L&T and TATA shouldn't? Oh wait, per Victor's logic, these are private players so they should have R&D, evil PSUs shouldn't because they are wasteful. Oh, but more R&D focus would make them less evil. That shouldn't happen because because....they are PSUs and can never improve.
Unfortunately, your skewed post ignores real world manufacturing wherein even iterative developments proposed by a design group need to be changed to functional production oriented designs by an inhouse design group, let alone take up more advanced programs. Every system integrator worth its salt like HAL needs to have a strong R&D group to both complete the last mile problems common with advanced designs and also to work closely with partners and suppliers.
ADA was in fact founded because HALs design capabilities post HF-24 were whittled down and squandered. And you would have us continue with this mistake, wherein the need of the hour is to upscale India's design & development capability across organizations. And instead of improving and fixing things you would want the "neanderthals" to remain neanderthals and the black holes to become worse. Great.

If you cared to look a little more closely at my post, I did in fact mention the need fo active "feedback" from the floor to what is essentially an R&D "subsidiary" (National Aerospace Laboratories) of HAL/ISRO/DRDO while each also has its own R&D aeronautical activity. What a waste.


What is this magical "Active feedback" - is it something like ISRO calling up HAL actively? First, none of the organizations you mentioned above belong to HAL or are directly part of its organizational structure. They have mandates which are far more diverse and even larger than HALs in specific areas. Second, in turn they have zero ownership of HAL and nor does HAL have ownership of them, both groups would contest any change in this system as well, with cross participation limited to specific programs. Third, unable tofix things, because it didn't do any R&D, HAL was busy running around to the world for even basic stuff. And you think this is a good thing. This "active feedback" business is good for only bunkum debates.

The key question here is why have a NAL at all? Or even a DRDO dabbling in aeronautics? Are these job-creating social schemes or institutions that are responsible for urgent defense needs? It is this type of fuzziness that resulted in DRDO (research) slapping together a phyter only to find that it was not suitable for mass production (HAL). Whether we like it or not, after 30 years of effort LCA Mk1 is good only for Republic Day flypasts. If IAF is lucky, it will get a usable LCA Mk2 in 10 years. This is not a system that should be acceptable to a country with some of the most dangerous enemies in the world.


LOL at your claims. Oh those poor SDREs why do they do these things.
Why have a NAL at all, so why does Russia have a TSAAGI to do core research in aeronautics?
And as to the LCA MK1 - I'd rather believe the LCA TP as versus pontifications to the dutty SDREs over what is good or not and "neanderthals and black holes". Of course, the LCA team are integrating everything from Pythons to Astras to LGBs for Republic Day Flypasts. Of course, the LCA TP who compare it favorably to the Mirage etc are equally clueless. Thanks for setting us straight, o'great bwaana from the heaven in the sky.

I don't think you realize how juvenile this sounds.


I am calling it as I see it. Your posts filled with over the top proclamations ignoring any sort of logical analysis are not exactly mature, they are quite juvenile.
Last edited by Karan M on 23 Aug 2014 11:15, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 23 Aug 2014 11:09

RoyG wrote:Right right, and you do...All hail Karanji, PSU prophet.


More than you will ever have at any rate. Still clutching at mummy pappa's purse strings to act tough on the net or have you even graduated? Run off now..

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 23 Aug 2014 11:22

Thanks to Singha for finding this.. good writeup but software/C3I is a disaster, will write more when I get time (away from the trolls).


Singha wrote:hawks like Surya and KaranM will find this interesting...

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... rends.html

Indian Army C4ISR trends


IBNLive
The Indian Army (IA) believes that state of the art intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) systems can serve to give it an advantage over even collaborating adversaries on either flank.

As such investment by IA into contemporary ISR systems has been steadily rising with a view to making the kill chain shorter, garnering tactical intelligence and even achieving non-kinetic neutralization capability.

The electronic order of battle (EOB) however requires continuous upgradation as well as the development of a doctrine dovetailed to the absorption of new technology. Since ISR systems are a closely guarded arena and may involve non-negotiable operational security (OPSEC) considerations indigenous development is an imperative.

Fortunately, the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has been working closely with Indian industry to deliver on this front. However in a world where one sometimes has to run fast enough just to stay where they are, the focus should be on scaleable and upgradeable networks that can also act as enablers of jointness with the Indian Air force (IAF) and Indian Navy(IN).

IA's spend on ISR systems is expected to exceed 5-6 billion dollars by 2020. Large investments have already been made in the area of signals intelligence (SIGINT) leading to the development of highly capable products such as the Samyukta electronic warfare (EW) system. Samyukta, developed by DRDO's Defence Electronics & Research Laboratory (DLRL) along with IA's Signal Corps is a 145 vehicle based integrated EW system consisting of electronic intelligence (ELINT), communications intelligence (COMINT) combined with electronic countermeasures (ECM) and electronic support measures (ESM) blocks covering both radar and communication frequency bands ranging from 1.5 MHz - 40 GHz i.e all the way from High Frequency (HF) to Millimetre Wave (MMW).

Samyukta which is capable of intercepting, detecting and classifying pulsed, CW, PRF agile, frequency agile and chirp radars is very much in keeping with the move towards wideband digitally flexible SIGINT systems in the ISR domain to deal with an increasingly congested and complex threat spectrum. The key enabler of wideband jamming capability in the case of Samyukta is a multiple beam jammer array antenna with Rotman lens that can handle numerous threats simultaneously in X - Ku bands.

Technology for antennas which provides the necessary interface between the transmitter/receiver system and free space today is evolving towards smart, shared aperture, and fractal systems that are increasingly embracing millimeter, sub-millimeter and quasi-optical radiators. These new approaches are expected to yield high performance, low-cost, compact size, lightweight, conformal mounting for low radar cross section (RCS) array integration leading to higher deployability and stealth.

Micro-electro mechanical systems (MEMS) will be used to produce reconfigurable electromagnetic structures that can perform multiple functions instead of being dovetailed to a single use.

The development of 'smart antennas' and new advances in core technologies such as microelectronics are miniaturizing systems in weight and volume covering a wide frequency range. Smart film materials are being pursued to package together these wind ranging goals which are likely to find expression in the follow on to the Samyukta known as Sauhard being developed by DLRL.

Realizing that though effective, the Samyukta system is meant for large scale forward deployment in the plains, IA and DLRL are now birthing an IEWS for mountainous terrain or IEWS-MT. For effective deployment in high altitude areas, IEWS-MT will obviously have to sport lighter weight electronic systems and will exhibit some of the new technology features outlined above. Tata Power SED has been selected as system integrator for this 186 million US dollar program. TPSED will develop and supply two IEWS-MT systems that include ECM, ESM packages for electromagnetic spectrum scanning, location-fixing of enemy transmitters, jamming, interception of enemy communications, both cellular and radar.

DLRL is also venturing into developing more compact and modular ELINT systems such as the 'Sujav' which it says is meant for high accuracy DF and jamming of communication transceivers. It covers HF, VHF & UHF ranges and is available in cluster configuration for army use or in suite configuration for naval usage. It has also developed the 'Safari' IED suppression system for IA and paramilitary forces. DRDO's various jammers naturally employ digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) techniques for digital flexibility.

A very big aspect of staying at the cutting edge of EW is the availability of dedicated testing and training ranges for the same. In this context the development of Chitradurga (Karnataka) and Tandur(Andhra Pradesh) as EA ranges is a very welcome development indeed. These ranges will in all probability see the use of DARE's Range On Wheels (ROW) concept. ROW has been developed for evaluation of installed specifications of airborne EW Systems and for fine tuning EA techniques. This mobile range consists of representative threat radar, a reference radar, a slaved system (DASA), a data acquisition station, a mission control station and a generator vehicle. It can also be used for avionics, and weapon evaluation since it is capable of studying aerodynamic data in real time for aircrafts, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

Indeed for truly persistent 'ISR', IA has to move towards airborne intelligence systems which will increasingly be based on medium altitude long endurance (MALE) UAVs in the years ahead that enable an operator to look 400-500 kilometres deep into enemy territory. Putting together credible SIGINT packages on UAVs requires not just superior antenna technology but may end up seeing a generational shift in electronics as such. Some developers believe that the need to package more capable ISR payloads combined with management of limited on-board power on UAVs will lead to Gallium Nitride(GaN) based semi-conductor technology totally replacing the current Gallium Arsenide(GaAs) in power transistor devices at the higher end of the frequency spectrum as SIGINT packages increasingly operate in that part of the spectrum. GaN is preferred over GaAs in the course of this evolution since it offers exceptional power density and can operate at higher power levels over higher frequencies with greater efficiency. In this context India may need to create GaN foundry capability on an urgent basis.

Even as we watch out for the progress of intelligence packages on UAVs, a prototype Ku-band synthetic aperture radar(SAR) developed by the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), DRDO's key radar lab based in Bangalore, is set to be flight tested on the Nabharatna Do-228 flying testbed supplied by HAL earlier this year. This indigenous SAR, which will eventually be carried by the Rustom-2 MALE UAV is expected to boost medium range battlefield mapping capabilities by conferring IA with the ability to cover ground the size of an army corps commander's area of interest from a safe stand-off distance. The observational element, which will be combined with effective ground moving target indication (GMTI) will prove rather useful for the various classes of loitering attack systems that are currently on DRDO's drawing board.

Systems based on unmanned ground vehicles (UGV) however seem to be moving faster. DRDO's Combat Vehicles and Research Development Establishment (CVRDE) has created a family of BMP-II based UGVs called Mission Unmanned Tracked (MUNTRA). The system consists of a manned BMP-II unit called MUNTRA-B serving as a base station for three tele-operated BMP-II based UGVs tailored to specific roles. One UGV variant dubbed MUNTRA-M uses a VHF band ground penetrating radar (GPR) developed under DRDO's 'Divya Chakshu' program to detect buried IEDs. A CBRNE variant called MUNTRA-N has also been developed.

IA already deploys several battlefield surveillance radars (BFSRs). The longest ranged BFSR in the IA inventory is the X-band PIT 530 BFSR-MR, which can detect a group of moving people at 18 km, low flying helicopters at 25 km, moving vehicles at 40 km and a 155 mm artillery blast at 15 km. BFSR-MRs are currently deployed with IA's mechanized infantry units (MIUs). These radars originally designed by ELTA are currently being produced by BEL under license.

BEL's PJT-531 Battlefield surveillance radar-Short range (BFSR-SR ) however is an indigenous product developed by LRDE in a period of just 24 months in response to a specific qualitative requirement from IA. BFSR-SR is a man portable, battery powered J-band surveillance and acquisition radar capable of detecting crawling men at 500 m, moving groups of people at 5 km and a group of vehicles at 10 kms. It can track 50 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and displays target information on a high resolution portable colour PC display. Interestingly, the BFSR-SR has made it to the MUNTRA program with a MUNTRA-S UGV carrying it in both tele-operated and autonomous modes. Summer trials of MUNTRA-S were concluded recently.

IA certainly has been steadily adding to its radio frequency measurement and signature intelligence (MASINT) capabilities as epitomized by the acquisition of weapon locating radars (WLR). After buying some eight AN/TPQ-37 WLRs off the shelf from Hughes, IA today has placed significant orders for the LRDE developed and BEL built Swathi WLR which is a coherent, electronically scanned C-band pulse doppler radar. The radar automatically locates hostile artillery, mortars and rocket launchers and tracks friendly fire to locate the impact point of friendly artillery fire to issue necessary corrections and is capable of dealing with counter-battery fire from up to 30 kms away. Swathi WLR has been specifically designed for high mobility, quick deployment operations in an ECM environment.

IA of course also has to guard against incoming aircraft and not just ballistic projectiles. Army Air Defence (AAD) is currently receiving deliveries of the Bharani Low level Light Weight L-Band 2D Radar which is a battery powered compact sensor tailored for employment in mountainous terrain against hostile aerial targets like UAVs, helicopters and fixed wing aircraft flying at low and medium altitudes. Bharani can be transported by vehicles, animal transport or a group of men or as a heli-slung load. It can be dismantled into packages to facilitate quick installation and re-location in mountainous terrain.

IA is also inducting LRDE's 3D Tactical Control Radar (TCR) in a Tatra VVL mounted configuration for mobile stand-alone medium range, all weather 3D surveillance. Pertinent data can be collected by a Target Data Receiver (TDR) located 20 Kms away from the Radar. The radar operates in the S-band and is capable of TWS of fighter sized targets from up to 90kms away and for UAV sized ones from up to 65 kms away. The TCR's antenna is mechanically rotated in azimuth to provide 360 deg and 50 deg elevation coverage up to an altitude of 10 kms.

Clearly radar systems have emerged as a key indigenous strength in the ISR space. But in the battlefield of today long range electro-optical sensors complement BFSRs to vastly improve tactical reconnaissance capability. Till recently, IA was heavily dependent on foreign sources, especially Israel in this space. Several units of Elbit's Long-Range Reconnaissance and Observation System(LORROS) are currently operational with IA. LORROS consists of forward looking infrared (FLIR) and colour charge-coupled-device (CCD) image sensors, with the option of also integrating an eye-safe laser rangefinder (LRF), built-in compass and an inclinometer, which provides UTM location mapping. It can be operated remotely with a control unit that can be stationed up to several kilometres away using a fiber -optic channel. This year however BEL began deliveries of the 'Kshitij' to IA which is an upgraded version of LORROS that extends its FLIR range beyond 13 km and was developed keeping in mind the Line of Actual Control with China. It is expected that the cheaper Kshitij will allow IA to field it in every battalion.

To make squad level ISR even more commonplace, IA placed orders worth Rs 700 crores for the Integrated Multi-Function Sight (IMFS) developed by DRDO's Instruments Research and Development Establishment (IRDE) which packages a thermal imager (TI), a LRF, a CCD camera, a global positioning system GPS and a digital magnetic compass into a single device weighing just 3.5 kg. However even as indigenous hand held TIs proliferate, India has to run faster to catch up with the West in the area of image intensifier tube technology for night vision devices (NVD). IA is currently on the lookout for mass introduction of third generation NVDs and the FDI route could actually be pursued for this.

IRDE's IMFS represents a generic trend in ISR technology where multi-functional payloads are finding their way onto a common platform small or big. This trend has of course given rise to wide area persistent surveillance (WAPS) systems that have been born out of American urban warfare requirements during the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns. WAPS allows both wide area coverage as well as narrow view high resolution ISR simultaneously. Context is maintained even as specific targets (such as individuals and vehicles) are examined both spatially and over time. Obviously WAPS systems are essentially designed to be deployed on aerial platforms such as tethered balloons, aerostats, UAVs or manned aircraft. The US Gorgon Stare system which is deployed aboard the reaper UAV and uses five electro-optical and four infrared cameras to generate imagery from 12 different angles is considered the current gold standard, though more extensive systems can be carried on much larger aerial vehicles such as Aerostats. However such systems are data intensive. For instance a single Gorgon Stare pod can generate around two terabytes of data every day.

Heading into the future, hyperspectral imaging, full-motion video, foliage penetration, and mapping and tracking of individuals on foot will all find their way into solitary aerial platforms as the ability to geo-locate and geo-register targets will become increasingly important in sub-conventional scenarios. Indeed the fusion of SAR systems combined with Electro-optical/Infrared (EO/IR) payloads is already happening to increase decision making capability. Naturally this is also increasing on-board computing requirements for UAVs leading to the development of increased core count, lower power consuming CPUs, along with associated FPGAs or GPGPUs. This is creating a network architecture where intelligence collected can be shared, processed and distributed in a more decentralized rather than in a point to point relay station manner.

Working towards such a capability is critical in an era where networks fight networks and these networks are increasingly looking to become mobile adhoc networks (MANET) to literally keep pace with an ever changing tactical battle area and rear. Making the sensor to shooter chain shorter requires ad-hoc networking that optimizes spectrum utilization when coupled with contemporary waveforms which in turn enables the real time delivery of video, image transfer, voice and data. The dependence on space to provide wider coverage continues to grow which is then sought to be linked with MANETs on the ground and in the air.

Much work however needs to be done for attaining this kind of network centricity in IA's EOB. And the reason for that is a little mysterious because the IA's plans in this direction go way back. In fact the current flagship IA program, the tactical communication system (TCS) was actually labelled TCS-2000 initially given that it was supposed to be rolled out by that year i.e 2000. After a decade long delay the programme was re-badged TCS-2010 and we are now in 2014. Clearly this program needs to be taken up on a priority basis.

Be that as it may, TCS which is sought to be developed under the 'make' category of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) has two competing development agencies- Bharat Electronics (BEL) and a consortium of L&T, Tata Power and HCL Infosys Ltd. TCS as currently envisioned is essentially a mix of a mobile vehicular ad-hoc network (VANET) and the more static wireless service network (WSN) technology at the corps level. It is designed to give IA the means to 'communicate on the move' even as it penetrates into enemy territory making TCS a very big enabler of the 'cold start' type doctrines.

Based on light weight high mobility vehicles which represent communication nodes, TCS will have the bandwidth to handle very high data rates and provide encrypted voice, video and data transmission though frequency hopping radio networks with multiple redundancies. Naturally this network will also have the mobile terminals necessary for satellite based connectivity as well and the firewalls necessary to prevent cyber intrusion given that cyber and electronic warfare techniques are increasingly melding with each other.

The project worth around 3 billion dollars will see each of the two competitors build a prototype TCS with the one being selected going on to build seven sets of TCS for seven corps of the IA. The TCS is however a harbinger of a truer MANET called the battlefield management system (BMS) which will facilitate high bandwidth real time communications from the battalion headquarters forward to the companies and platoons. Being fielded in all varieties of terrain the BMS contract value will probably be worth ten times more than the current TCS contract and a game changer in Asia. The IA actually has vast network centricity plans and envisages a tactical command, control, communications and information (TacC3I) system core which will encompass the command information decision support system, the Shakti artillery combat command and control system, the battlefield surveillance system including BFSRs and WLRs, an air defence control and reporting system augmented by newer generation 2D and 3D radars, and of course the BMS.

Meanwhile DLRL has been developing a tri-system radar finger printing system which will prove crucial to achieving 'jointness' in the electronic realm. This system has the capability of providing 'Unique Identification of emitters among a class of emitters' based on intra-pulse analysis of radar waveforms. The system measures the frequency, phase and amplitude variations within the radar pulse. Intra pulse analysis extracts as many parameters (features) of radar pulses as possible with fine grain accuracy.

The three services together are moving towards an overarching defence communication network (DCN) which once fully operationalized would give real meaning to the concept of 'jointness' championed by the three services. In the words of a former Defence Minister himself, 'DCN envisages a network of optical fibre cables, satellite earth stations and transportable and portable satellite terminals with high security features that enable conduct of simultaneous real time networked operations from multiple sites to cater for contingencies and failures, as well as hardware redundancies for fail-safe operations. Such a network will be the backbone of the proposed joint commands for cyberwarfare, special operations and space operations.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 23 Aug 2014 11:31

The above also shows the slow & steady progress of local Design & Development in supplanting the usual import/TOT stuff.
Khsitij (desi LORROS), TCR & Bharani (AAD's local radars), Shakti (ACCC&S for Arty), IMFS (integrated sight for infantry), Swathi WLR (for supplanting the AN/TPQ-37s), radar fingerprinting (here SJha is mistaken IMHO - this is something in service already with Navy & AF & being expanded to IA).
Where we are yet to achieve any headway, critical mass are IA SW C3I programs partly due to turf wars & unclear lines of responsibility. BMS being part of FINSAS and other programs too being one such victim.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 23 Aug 2014 11:37

I was in impression that we are not doing enough or anything at all(with all story of 1500 hp engine and titanium and all), but reading at DRDO/HAL/ISRO success stories were quite inspirational, so much inspirational that it did change way of my life as well.

Redundancy in Institutes is GOI problem, but they will argue why do we need more than 360 universities , why not have just 10. This idea of 10 universities grasping all funds at one center idea will work amazing in countries with low population, high standards of living, attractive salary, nice work culture and ethics, also and also the people in there country work for the own country and never leave it. While same story applied for India is no where near the same.

The moment a Indian joins govt R&D and get some experience there will be huge offers of attractive salaries from all over world while a list of average Indian feelings are here- there is no clarity or focus about country's future (this changed now a days after MOM launch, everyone are having a feeling we might go to Mars in future, which is a safe bet as we are busy destroying our own planet so), work ethics (worst one), salary I don't need to elaborate on this one (this is also changing because of incentives, some how it is corruption and reservation proof), enemies attacking every day at border at inside the territory- No security proof, worries one day they will engulf the country and my family have to face worst of it, oh I forgot to put there is no optimistic positive work environment- do this within this time, within this much money with only this much people, and if they fail they will be blamed to hell, no encouragement, no positive attitude.

Now where does redundancy helps in these issues, one way is it dilutes many of them. It breaks the big question into several smaller questions so that each bits of them can be achieved well in time. The side effect of it is - it also dilutes funds and focus and people. Then again GOI can still play GOD here by managing these three side effects, which I think we are already seeing now(optimistic again).

thats my 2 Rupees i put there.

Karan sir thanks for links, between I just went to post PIB news directly the whole thing, only to discover later that what!! we had a SFC plan secretly being working that to state of art (I don't care whether it borrowed tech or something, we have it feels secure) , never under estimate GOI, keep faith are my only words.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby kmkraoind » 23 Aug 2014 12:28

Means govt companies are acting as spring board for careers. Why people going abroad, may be they are unable to cope with internal politics, bureaucratic inertia, lack of growth. If we open up our private sector, if not all, many of these can work in private sector, then it a win-win situation for India. To tell our intent, let P75I submarines built in a private dock (L&T or Pipavav or Mundra or consortium of private companies). I read somewhere that welders and fitters trained for U-209 submarine are working in Gelf. Why our training and manpower be helpful for another countries. If there are private companies, they can re-hire such talent at short notices.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SanjayC » 23 Aug 2014 12:50

^^^ The babus would rather die than allow private sector and create competitors for their work. Babus recoil from competition as much as we recoil from eating shit.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jagga » 23 Aug 2014 13:01

Narendra Modi extremely unhappy with DRDO’s failure to meet deadlines in delivering products
Extremely unhappy about the state of affairs, Modi has put DRDO on notice. With the government approving 49% FDI in defence, the PM has asked the tardy organisation to shape-up in the face of competition from the private sector. Officials in the security setup of the country told ET that Modi has asked the defence minister to conduct a detailed review of the organisation, and if need be come out with a white paper on it.

Modi personally delivered a stern message to DRDO, asking the officers to give up their "chalta hai" (lackadaisical) attitude, during the annual award ceremony of the organisation on August 20. The PM had started the DRDO clean-up project even before he attended the award function. He ordered scrapping of a committee that was reviewing cases to grant extension of service to scientists, who had superannuated. The committee sent its recommendations to the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet.

As many as 15 top scientists of DRDO, including Director General (DG) Avinash Chander, are on extension. Chander, in fact, is now on contract after two extensions. Incidentally, he holds three posts — Secretary (Defence) R&D, DG (DRDO) and Scientific Advisor to the defence minister. It was the previous ACC, under the UPA government, comprising Manmohan Singh, AK Antony and Sushil Kumar Shinde that had granted him extensions and finally appointed him on contract in November 2013. About six to eight people were believed to be getting extensions each year in DRDO.

"The PM was not happy about it. As per a department of personnel and training (DoPT) ruling, only the best scientists of international stature should be considered for extensions. He asked for all the details. He was told about the high attrition rate among the younger scientists," disclosed a senior defence ministry official.

The review committee, scrapped by the government, comprised secretaries of Department of Atomic Energy, DRDO and ISRO as members. Modi is believed to have said that the secretaries of the same departments could not review extensions of their own personnel. He has now constituted the committee to include the Cabinet Secretary and secretaries of unrelated departments of science and technology and earth sciences.

"It is to weed out the dead wood that Modi made the announcement about employing only young scientists, not over the age of 35, in five of the 52 DRDO labs. It is a beginning and will send the message to everyone working in DRDO to deliver," explained the defence ministry official.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 23 Aug 2014 13:32

Victor wrote:Does Boeing or LM have a DRDO and NAL with wasteful overlapping functions to muddy the waters and provide deniability? No. As private businesses, one of their main responsibilities is to maintain efficiency and eliminate overlaps. (EADS is a multinational group of companies and doesn't fit the picture). As I have always maintained, none of this stuff should be in the hands of a corrupt centralized bureaucracy that is essentially ignorant and answerable to no one but if we are stuck with these neanderthals for the medium term because of labor issues, we need to at least get rid of the black holes.

If you cared to look a little more closely at my post, I did in fact mention the need fo active "feedback" from the floor to what is essentially an R&D "subsidiary" (National Aerospace Laboratories) of HAL/ISRO/DRDO while each also has its own R&D aeronautical activity. What a waste.

The key question here is why have a NAL at all? Or even a DRDO dabbling in aeronautics? Are these job-creating social schemes or institutions that are responsible for urgent defense needs? It is this type of fuzziness that resulted in DRDO (research) slapping together a phyter only to find that it was not suitable for mass production (HAL). Whether we like it or not, after 30 years of effort LCA Mk1 is good only for Republic Day flypasts. If IAF is lucky, it will get a usable LCA Mk2 in 10 years. This is not a system that should be acceptable to a country with some of the most dangerous enemies in the world.

I don't think you realize how juvenile this sounds.


In your own words.." I don't think you realize how juvenile this sounds." :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Zynda » 23 Aug 2014 14:58

NAL is supposed to assume NASA's functions i.e. conduct basic research on fluid dynamics, structural aspects relevant to airplanes & space applications. DRDO & ISRO as design agencies are supposed to use these data for engineering development.

I think DRDO should revisit their hiring practises...discouraging people over 35 from joining their workforce may not be that prudent. For an engineer to even start becoming competent in his field takes about 10 plus years of experience in his choosen field. Its great that DRDO offers training & development programs for young engineers who are recruited fresh off the school, but to completey discourage anyone over 35 from joining is not a wise movie IMHO.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rahul M » 23 Aug 2014 15:01

or like TsAGI of russia.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 23 Aug 2014 15:22

Zynda wrote:NAL is supposed to assume NASA's functions i.e. conduct basic research on fluid dynamics, structural aspects relevant to airplanes & space applications. DRDO & ISRO as design agencies are supposed to use these data for engineering development.

I think DRDO should revisit their hiring practises...discouraging people over 35 from joining their workforce may not be that prudent. For an engineer to even start becoming competent in his field takes about 10 plus years of experience in his choosen field. Its great that DRDO offers training & development programs for young engineers who are recruited fresh off the school, but to completey discourage anyone over 35 from joining is not a wise movie IMHO.

It is a Govt. body at the end of the day i.e. hierarchy will be maintained which means laterals are not welcome. There are ways to address this for instance to allow contractors/consultants to contribute but then given our security and background verification process not sure how will that work out.

Right way forward is to not have 1 umbrella org under DRDO but let all constituent labs have a distinct identity of their own . Be it PSUs or private cos beyond a certain size they all start loosing the ability to produce science/new things instead become a safe and cozy place to work while the private corporations can address this via job cuts DRDO cannot so imho way forward is to let different labs be identified as different orgs and compete for funds and budgetary outlay by producing proposals and projects which appeal to the end user.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Zynda » 23 Aug 2014 16:16

negi wrote:It is a Govt. body at the end of the day i.e. hierarchy will be maintained which means laterals are not welcome. There are ways to address this for instance to allow contractors/consultants to contribute but then given our security and background verification process not sure how will that work out.


DRDO has a program to hire highly accomplished NRIs engineers/scientists on contract basis and use their services. The criterion for accomplishment is fairly high and I know of several NRIs who are doing good in their field and can bring specific skill sets to the table but are not "highly accomplished". Such highly accomplished people would be in their 50s and it is quite unlikely at their age to start working in a new environment (India).

There may be a lot of small pvt companies working with DRDO, but their visibility is limited. None of the big desi pvt service sector employers engage with DRDO/Govt agencies in a very active manner and most NRIs or non-entry level Indian engineers target these companies. We need a scheme to make these small time companies visible and also be able to afford decent salaries to hire such talent.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby VinodTK » 23 Aug 2014 18:28

PM wants action, DRDO must fire on all cylinders
Achalta hai attitude won’t do anymore. This was what Prime Minister Narendra Modi pointed out to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) that has taken ages to conclude various weapon projects. Many of the projects that the DRDO has taken up over the years are 30 years old or even more. Akash, the medium-range surface-to-air missile, took about three decades. The same is true for Nag. The light combat aircraft, of which Tejas is part, is ready for use but hasn’t received operational clearance yet. As a result, the technology platforms that the DRDO had been using are becoming outdated and are being overtaken by more sophisticated technologies. In addition, this opens the way for further imports, putting a spoke in the wheel of indigenisation and creating fears of a stoppage in supplies by foreign sellers.

Mr Modi also talked about having an interface between scientists working in the 52 laboratories of the DRDO and the defence forces. This is essential because often it is the military’s objections that tilt the opinion of the Defence Acquisition Council in favour of importing. This is despite the fact that the previous PM, Manmohan Singh, had told the defence forces that the 15% hike in the procurement budget every year could not be forever assured. In view of this, it is all the more necessary that defence planning is streamlined. After taking charge as DRDO chief last year, Avinash Chander had said an expenditure model for R&D had not been developed. He talked about identifying a few focus areas such as the advanced medium combat aircraft and gun designing for the artillery. India spends about 5% of its defence budget on research and development, whereas the figure for China is 15%.

The DRDO in the meantime underwent restructuring last year. Seven top scientists, who were earlier chief controllers, were appointed director generals of various clusters. So they have now moved from an advisory role to that of a position where they would be in charge of execution. This has made it easier for the DRDO to be in a deal with Swedish company Saab to develop Tejas Mark II, which is expected to join the IAF by 2019. The new defence dispensation needs to review various pending proposals to see whether or not they are feasible. It also needs to smooth over some of the turf wars among the key ministries involved in research and development of new military technologies. But one thing is clear, the sort of inertia that had come to characterise the DRDO will have to change given the PM’s push to show results in this field.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chetak » 23 Aug 2014 18:55

Zynda wrote:
negi wrote:It is a Govt. body at the end of the day i.e. hierarchy will be maintained which means laterals are not welcome. There are ways to address this for instance to allow contractors/consultants to contribute but then given our security and background verification process not sure how will that work out.


DRDO has a program to hire highly accomplished NRIs engineers/scientists on contract basis and use their services. The criterion for accomplishment is fairly high and I know of several NRIs who are doing good in their field and can bring specific skill sets to the table but are not "highly accomplished". Such highly accomplished people would be in their 50s and it is quite unlikely at their age to start working in a new environment (India).

There may be a lot of small pvt companies working with DRDO, but their visibility is limited. None of the big desi pvt service sector employers engage with DRDO/Govt agencies in a very active manner and most NRIs or non-entry level Indian engineers target these companies. We need a scheme to make these small time companies visible and also be able to afford decent salaries to hire such talent.


Most of these guys are looking to line their pockets.

There are enough "scams" going on in the govt R&D space with retired folks being given cushy contract sinecures in their previous organisations at emoluments much higher than what they were drawing before they "retired"

kickbacks and crony targeted purchase orders are the order of the day. One crafty bunch places the purchase orders and another crafty retired bunch with brand new companies executes the orders or they land cushy jobs with existing vendors /companies and bring in lucrative orders to justify the fat salaries.

Most of the companies hire R&D folks with whom they have very recently worked and these guys siphon out drawings and software to sell back as "development" work or upgrades.

looks like these folks have learned well at the feet of their political masters.

I was shocked to hear of "extensions" repeatedly being given to a favored few senior DRDO "scientists". One can only imagine what quid pro quo must have taken place with every extension. These guys control budgets of hundreds of crores with very lax financial controls




Modi personally delivered a stern message to DRDO, asking the officers to give up their "chalta hai" (lackadaisical) attitude, during the annual award ceremony of the organisation on August 20. The PM had started the DRDO clean-up project even before he attended the award function. He ordered scrapping of a committee that was reviewing cases to grant extension of service to scientists, who had superannuated. The committee sent its recommendations to the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet.

Narendra Modi extremely unhappy with DRDO’s failure to meet deadlines in delivering products

greedy Avinash chander seems to have gobbled up three important posts all by himself!!! with this wonderful attitude, the cooperation that he would have got from his always ambitious and ever hopeful colleagues would have been next to nothing


and yet no nobel prize?? Is he really so great? Judging by results DRDO seems to have suffered badly due to shitty leadership and very poor organisational focus


Prime Minister Narendra Modi with awardees at the DRDO Awards 2013 function in New Delhi on August 20, 2014. (PTI photo)

As many as 15 top scientists of DRDO, including Director General (DG) Avinash Chander, are on extension. Chander, in fact, is now on contract after two extensions. Incidentally, he holds three posts — Secretary (Defence) R&D, DG (DRDO) and Scientific Advisor to the defence minister. It was the previous ACC, under the UPA government, comprising Manmohan Singh, AK Antony and Sushil Kumar Shinde that had granted him extensions and finally appointed him on contract in November 2013. About six to eight people were believed to be getting extensions each year in DRDO.

"The PM was not happy about it. As per a department of personnel and training (DoPT) ruling, only the best scientists of international stature should be considered for extensions. He asked for all the details. He was told about the high attrition rate among the younger scientists," disclosed a senior defence ministry official.

The review committee, scrapped by the government, comprised secretaries of Department of Atomic Energy, DRDO and ISRO as members. Modi is believed to have said that the secretaries of the same departments could not review extensions of their own personnel. He has now constituted the committee to include the Cabinet Secretary and secretaries of unrelated departments of science and technology and earth sciences.

"It is to weed out the dead wood that Modi made the announcement about employing only young scientists, not over the age of 35, in five of the 52 DRDO labs. It is a beginning and will send the message to everyone working in DRDO to deliver," explained the defence ministry official.

DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta could not be contacted for a comment.
Last edited by chetak on 23 Aug 2014 19:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 23 Aug 2014 19:13

Stop the blame game on any institutions, this is what we are now ! accept it, somehow we all are reason for it as well..

How can we make it better from here.?

Solve the attrition problem, otherwise they will become training centers for good job prospectus.
Little attention here-- UAE wants to launch Satellites to Mars, they will give attractive salaries, how many from ISRO will resist! may be for this generation, what about future gen people?

Solve the security problem there were reports scientists getting killed under mysterious circumstances.

Declare most important projects as "projects of national importance" and " projects of national pride" helps to pool out scientific talent. Bring on everything possible under earth to get it done.

Regarding Universities and IITs there ranking in world, many of the phoreign univ hire Noble prize winners it is kinda invisible biding, once they hire (permanent as well as visiting) , a few lectures to inspire people would indeed put them in world ranks. So please do not lecture and worry about world ranks anywhere, they are many of times not correctly made.

Do not Copy and paste the US and European models of scientific research and organizational things in India, they won't work, we have our own unique problems.

NRI scientists won't solve anything in India, please don't bring them here, it has never been a successful story (they spy, loot ideas, start new problems what not).

Build scientific infrastructure and industrial complex, many of experiments we could not do just because there were no labs and equipment to do it.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby RoyG » 23 Aug 2014 19:47

Karan M wrote:
RoyG wrote:Right right, and you do...All hail Karanji, PSU prophet.


More than you will ever have at any rate. Still clutching at mummy pappa's purse strings to act tough on the net or have you even graduated? Run off now..


Name a few products that did make it, ignore the fact that deliveries are behind schedule, keep blaming the gov for not investing enough, ignore poor production quality etc. Aren't people who clutch onto mummy papa purse strings thinking along the same lines? You know, sit in the basement, pretend like you're looking for a job, raid the fridge, and then whine when your parents pull you up for getting nothing done. But hey, you can always pull up the excuse that you showered, and you have some kind of plan and that you just need a little more TIME. Blame the lighting, blame your parents, blame depression, etc. At the end of the day you just have to get out there and compete. What are you afraid of? It's okay, sitting in the basement pretending to be an expert on manufacturing (I assume you also play with legos) will eventually become too much for your beloved parents that they will have no choice but to kick your a** to the curb and make you learn a thing or two about personal responsibility.

Don't worry Modi is experiencing quite a bit of unhappiness now after looking at DRDO and others. It's only a matter of time before he starts axing the hell out of it...notwithstanding the whiners on the sidelines. Keep at it though. Perhaps, you can post about how DRDO and OFB are producing world class small arms line, mosquito repellent, etc :lol: .

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 23 Aug 2014 20:19

Saurav Jha - Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister
Saturday , August 23, 2014 at 18 : 39

The new Narendra Modi government gave the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), a major vote of confidence in its first budget by substantially hiking both the revenue and capital resources available to India's premier weapons development agency. However it is understood that this hike is also intended to help DRDO complete existing projects and pave the way for future programs many of which will be pursued in mission mode. The idea is to create a substantial military industrial complex in India which not only caters to domestic requirements but also dovetails with India's wider geo-economic strategy with respect to manufacturing exports and job creation. DRDO today is being asked to not merely catch up with the west in the realm of military technology but actually create 'technological surprise' for the rest of the world.

DRDO itself realizes that for India to achieve this objective, the path taken may be a little different from that taken by say the United States or Russia. For instance while DRDO is being boosted by the current regime, the Indian defence market is also being opened up to greater foreign direct investment. DRDO will also be given more freedom in choosing production partners for its products many of whom are likely to be from India's private sector in times to come. Geek at Large caught up with the Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri and Director General DRDO, Dr Avinash Chander to discuss these issues and more...

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, DRDO's prowess in the area of strategic missile systems is now accepted by even your worst detractors, but the same cannot be said about tactical missile systems yet. How would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: Major systems that have already been realized in the tactical domain include the Akash surface to air missile (SAM) which has gone into bulk production and recent trials from production lot conducted by the Indian Army (IA) have been quite successful. IA will induct this system shortly. The Indian Air force has of course already inducted the Akash.

Then you have the Astra air to air missile (AAM) which has undergone successful launches from a Su-30MKI and will soon be tested from the same against actual aerial targets. We are very confident about trials against actual targets since the Astra has already intercepted aerial targets when launched from the ground. I think we have a world class system on our hands here with the Astra. Third on this list, is the Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM) which is headed for trials in September if things go according to plan.

So there has been significant growth even in the tactical missiles arena domestically.

Saurav Jha:So in that context what are some of the new tactical missile systems being developed under DRDO's recently unveiled 'missile autonomy mission?'

Avinash Chander: Our aim via the 'missile autonomy mission' is to cover a wider space as it were. Let me outline some of the new systems being progressed. A new man portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for which design is over and hardware is getting developed. A Longer ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board. A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage. An anti-radiation missile and a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued.

Saurav Jha: What is the status of the anti-radiation missile and the long range anti-ship missile?

Avinash Chander: For the anti-radiation missile design is in progress, in fact hardware is being readied for the first trials. We expect successful trials of this ARM from an aircraft in about the next three years.

The long range anti-ship missile is on the drawing board, and we are confident that in about six years we would be able to get it ready. The long range anti-ship missile is going to be a ballistic missile with a seeker which can hit ships at long range.

Saurav Jha: So this is a rough equivalent of the Chinese DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile? An anti-access/area denial system?

Avinash Chander: Something like that yes. So as you can see almost the entire spectrum of missile capability is being addressed. And addressed to meet state of the art requirements thereby giving full teeth to our armed forces.

Saurav Jha: Coming back to the Akash, is there a move to upgrade the Akash, with say the addition of an onboard seeker?

Avinash Chander: We are examining various options for Akash Mk-II so that it can operate over a larger profile. One of the options is putting a seeker on board. Of course it not simply a matter of adding a seeker since it changes the entire dynamics of the missile. Nevertheless we are looking at multiple options and are certainly working on a Mark 2 version of the Akash.

Saurav Jha: Moving onto the Astra, when can we expect Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) for it?

Avinash Chander: After the first air-launched trials against an actual target which will take place in October-November this year, we will continue to extend its total engagement envelope and by 2015 end we should be looking at induction clearance.

Saurav Jha: Why was the LRSAM beset with delays? What would your perspective be on this?

Avinash Chander: LRSAM is a state of the art system. The Armed forces had actually tried to buy such a system from abroad, but nothing was really available that would come with satisfactory terms. And that is how we got into a joint venture with Israel, the system had to be developed ab initio. So there were issues with respect to radar development, issues with respect to the actuation system as well which was initially supposed to be pneumatic but then had to be changed to electromechanical. Then there was the two pulse motor which was being done for the first time and that got into certain combustion stability problems. But the good news is that all those problems have now been overcome. We launched a massive program on the rocket motor and today we have a motor which is stable and will be tested shortly.

Saurav Jha: Many of the new missiles being developed under the missile autonomy mission will require an on board seeker given their functions. For true autonomy India will have to be sufficient in that domain at some level. So in that context has a new detector fabrication facility for seeker heads been approved?

Avinash Chander: We are committed to setting up a detector production facility. Normal process of dialogue and tendering, taking approvals etc is currently underway. We are going to have a detector production facility for focal point arrays.

On the radio frequency (RF) seeker front also there is a major thrust. Right from the device i.e source of RF to the stabilization system, to the processing, we are starting a national mission kind of thing. Like we did when it came to developing control laws for the LCA. We have also set up a national mission for engines, for the 1500 HP engine. Now we are setting up a national mission for seekers by involving multiple agencies. We are confident that in the next three years.

We are starting a national mission for seeker and we are confident in the next three years we'll have our own seekers in multiple spectral domains - X band, Ka-band etc.

Saurav Jha: Coming to strategic missile systems. Missile ejection tests for the Agni-V's canister were carried out recently. How successful were these and when will see an actual canisterized launch of the Agni-V?

Avinash Chander: We had two tests and both were quite successful. Prime requirement is that there should be full repeatability matching with the projections. Both requirements have been met and the missile has been cleared to be launched from the canister. It should happen after the monsoon sometime.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, given that China is investing in anti-ballistic missile systems, it seems that MIRVs are becoming an inevitability for greater leakage probability. So when will see a full blown system test?

Avinash Chander: First of all, there are many ways of countering a ballistic missile defence. MIRV is one of the ways of course, i.e. by increasing the numbers. There are other ways, putting in more intelligence, countermeasures, reducing RCS and so on. This is like the game between missiles and aircraft. Where you build better missiles, but that doesn't mean that you don't build aircraft. I don't think there can be system which can be 100 percent proof. As we build more and more intelligence, it will have a counter response.

Saurav Jha: Has the program for a domestic turbofan for the Nirbhay taken off? What is the rating of this engine?

Avinash Chander: We have taken up the development of this engine and it has come to the bench test level. It is currently undergoing tests and evaluation and we are confident that we can do it. It has 400 kg thrust engine. But once we have the capability we can achieve varied thrust ratings for engines of this class. Incidentally, Nirbhay is coming up in a big way.

Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven. There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it. More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.

Saurav Jha: What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: Designs are getting finalized. We are going through the final stages of reviews.

Saurav Jha: When will we see a prototype of the UCAV? Will we see it by 2017 or so?

Avinash Chander: I don't think it will come that fast. Aircraft prototyping the typical cycle is 5-6 years. But we are working on it.

Saurav Jha: Turning to the Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. What is the status of that program?

Avinash Chander: KMGT has been taken up as a major joint activity between DRDO and industry. Because it has vast potential.

Saurav Jha: Now while DRDO is a development agency, the real issue in India is that of effective productionization. In that context, will the missile autonomy mission see the emergence of private sector players as system integrators?

Avinash Chander: Today, private industry is very actively involved in many DRDO programmes in the developmental stage. The main issue as you have said rightly, is that of their involvement as system integrators and system deliverers. My feeling is that with a number of systems coming up in the next few years, since our aim is to create a vast array of capability in the next 5-7 years, it will not be possible to do all that with purely government investment. So we will have to involve the national manufacturing capability for which we have suggested a military industrial complex to be created, which can become a partner in development as well as in delivery. We hope that private industry will be playing a major role in this. Also for many of the critical systems, there can be parallel lines for export, which can be run by private industries. If we feel that public sector unit(PSU) capacity is saturated we can always create a parallel line which is purely profit driven. They will have to create a market... and once the need is seen and the profitability is proven, automatically capacity will enhance itself.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander doesn't this lead to that old chicken and egg situation, where the private sector doesn't come in without assured demand, but to create the demand itself you have to make upfront investments?

Avinash Chander: I think the scenario is changing. Because there has been an unnecessary hesitation in conveying the numbers. Fact is we need numbers. Everybody knows we need numbers. And if we need numbers, we can convey the numbers to whichever industry whether public or private, subject to that industry meeting the specified requirements. If it doesn't meet requirements, we don't accept, just like any other thing which we go and buy. If something doesn't meet my specifications, I go and return the item or I don't accept it at all. So there shouldn't be a worry, that if it doesn't meet (specifications), as to what one should do. I think a realization has dawned that if time cycles have to be cut down, if capacity has to be created, if people have to be drawn in to invest in the creation of knowledge, it is essential that an integrated planning approach be adopted. Wherein all stages from development to product support during the life cycle be treated as an integrated activity. Then only can we be cost effective, time effective, and can create state of the art products.

Saurav Jha: The numbers you mention are also attracting a lot of foreign majors. And India recently liberalized its FDI in defence norms. But India's experience has shown that no foreign major, really wants to transfer the latest technology simply in lieu of money, to put it crudely. So in that sense what do you think FDI in defence can do for you?

Avinash Chander: When one is in a competitive market, an induction of this kind (i.e. of FDI), is a sort of trigger. I am confident that Indian innovation capability, entrepreneurship capabilities, will create more emphasis on R&D at the industry level, to be competitive with the FDIs on the anvil. When that happens, foreign vendors will have no option but to bring in better technology. Because it would set up a kind of a cycle wherein if they have to survive they would have to bring in the latest technology. For instance today that we come to this stage of development in missiles and aircraft, we find that people are offering a much better level of technological cooperation to us. The United States for example has come with the Javelin co-production, co-development offer, which was unthinkable some time back. And this is all because of the domestic capability which has been created. I am sure FDI in the defence sector, will trigger, like it did in the automobile sector. There also nobody wanted to bring in the technology, but people learnt, they grew. And they created a competitive eco-system and today you see Indian automobile companies standing on their own stead.

Saurav Jha: But in some areas such as drive trains, the Indian automobile sector is not really at par with the rest of the world. So that suggests that some technology gaps may yet require public investment to be bridged. Again, the latest budget has seen a substantial increase in the outlay for DRDO, but is it enough? Does DRDO today have enough manpower and enough resources?

Avinash Chander: With the enhanced budget we are comfortable for the time being. Secondly, for many of the future developments there will be partnership from the armed forces, from industry and so on. All the money need not come from DRDO, should not come from DRDO in fact, because we want commitment from all segments.

Another important part that you referred to is of course manpower. That is a serious area of concern. We have been carrying on, but we are finding serious difficulties because today we are saturated at about 7500 scientists, which basically means that there are a very small number of scientists per program. We are finding different means for outsourcing some of the more routine activities, but what for all the major programs on the anvil we need around 300-350 fresh young minds to be inducted every year who would bring new ideas, new dynamism. Today we are inducting hardly seventy people to offset retirements. So we have put up a case to government for enhancement of manpower and are looking to induct some 2700 scientists in phases over the next decade, so that our base can become strong. That base will create the dynamism for the future.

Watch out for Part II of this interview early next week.

member_23694
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23694 » 23 Aug 2014 20:39

NRI scientists won't solve anything in India, please don't bring them here, it has never been a successful story (they spy, loot ideas, start new problems what not).


Sorry, is this based on too many instances in the past or some mindset issue in the defence R&D establishment ? Curious to know.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 23 Aug 2014 20:48

Zynda wrote:DRDO has a program to hire highly accomplished NRIs engineers/scientists on contract basis and use their services. The criterion for accomplishment is fairly high and I know of several NRIs who are doing good in their field and can bring specific skill sets to the table but are not "highly accomplished". Such highly accomplished people would be in their 50s and it is quite unlikely at their age to start working in a new environment (India).


Not true. Many have tried - will leave it at that. A lot are approaching 70s. There have been a number of Indians who have gone abroad and worked under NRIs and have returned to India too. They are being underutilized.

Having said all that, I feel that the Modi approach will make a difference for the future. And, to a lesser extent the strategic relation (I know, I know) between the West and India will also contribute.

I think/feel that Indian MIC will have a brighter future. A few major things still need to be ironed out, but it is doable.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 23 Aug 2014 20:57

Karan M wrote:Now for news on the new APFSDS

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... jun-tested

Minor nitpick there is no mention of new APFSDS as such , right ? It is a new round for bunkers and reinforced shelters and urban setting but not a APFSDS.

I ask because I wanted to know if we have made progress with long rods since the famous debate on 'Mango' round. :)

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 23 Aug 2014 22:51

Zynda wrote:
DRDO has a program to hire highly accomplished NRIs engineers/scientists on contract basis and use their services. The criterion for accomplishment is fairly high and I know of several NRIs who are doing good in their field and can bring specific skill sets to the table but are not "highly accomplished". Such highly accomplished people would be in their 50s and it is quite unlikely at their age to start working in a new environment (India).

Age is largely not an issue anywhere other than in a sarkari job where "seniority" is sacrosant. This is true even in the US where the govt made sure the entire MIC is private where only merit counts. It is very likely that even an NRI in his 30s or 40s may be able to contribute significantly and that DRDO is simply not giving the NRI enough of an incentive, most probably by design. This is not to say that age and experience don't count for anything as they certainly do but not as much as raw merit.

There may be a lot of small pvt companies working with DRDO, but their visibility is limited. None of the big desi pvt service sector employers engage with DRDO/Govt agencies in a very active manner and most NRIs or non-entry level Indian engineers target these companies. We need a scheme to make these small time companies visible and also be able to afford decent salaries to hire such talent.

Again, these small companies are chosen by design to be dependent to DRDO.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 23 Aug 2014 23:37

It is a mystery why some people equate PSUs exclusively to "Indian" and anyone who castigates the PSUs as somehow "anti-Indian". Are Tata and Mahindra not SDREs also? Is this merely a red herring or a difficult vritti that needs removal?

Another pesky thought modification is the notion that NAL/HAL/DRDO somehow compete with each other and thus must have separate R&D facilities to design and make aircraft, never mind that they are all really subsidiaries that have the same "stockholder"(GoI).

Karan M wrote:...Oh wait, per Victor's logic, these are private players so they should have R&D, evil PSUs shouldn't because they are wasteful. Oh, but more R&D focus would make them less evil. That shouldn't happen because because....they are PSUs and can never improve....

:shock: :?: Lay off the bad stuff will ya.

Unfortunately, your skewed post ignores real world manufacturing wherein even iterative developments proposed by a design group need to be changed to functional production oriented designs by an inhouse design group, let alone take up more advanced programs.

NaMo rests my case. IMO, the severe jhaapad he delivered to DRDO even while handing out sweets (double ouch!) is only the beginning as is the 49% FDI. The next step will end these dodos forever and thank God and NaMO for that. A true Indian this man. A regurgitation of alphabet soup mixed with numbers to denote accomplishments won't give the air force a fighter or the army guns.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby govardhanks » 24 Aug 2014 16:19

dhiraj wrote:
NRI scientists won't solve anything in India, please don't bring them here, it has never been a successful story (they spy, loot ideas, start new problems what not).


Sorry, is this based on too many instances in the past or some mindset issue in the defence R&D establishment ? Curious to know.

I certainly not have direct reference or links to things in bold, heard so, most incidents are not revealed.

Dhiraj ji I put in a way to generalized form I agree, let me give it some direction.. the success stories of NRI talented pool coming working in here are all in pvt organization, not in govt. Yes there were direct n indirect instances hinting that it is not going work. But too many, I am not clear here, so not going to say anything here.

Mindset issues, it looks like that from far, lets read some comments (go to comments section in blogs) directly from NRIs what they say, because I don't want to sprinkle some dirt here.

http://www.nrimatters.com/power-nris/am-i-an-nri-the-non-returning-indian
http://silenteloquence.suryaonline.org/2005/03/06/nri-the-non-returning-indian/
http://www.r2iclubforums.com/forums/showthread.php/15101-DRDO-NRI-jobs
http://www.r2iclubforums.com/forums/showthread.php/14427-What-is-the-value-of-IITs-and-IITians/page4
http://latestinindia.com/2006/06/16/return-to-india-opportunity-or-payback/
http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_5886667?nclick_check=1
http://indiarepat.blogspot.in/
http://www.delhiledger.com/working-in-india/


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