India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[vic]

Modi is simply saying that (we have increased your budget by 50%and) now buck up and deliver results. The foreign funded news traders are using it to browbeat DRDO and canvas imports.

[Victor]

Now if professional trolls have orgasm imagining Modi giving a "Jhaapad" or some kind of "axing" being imminent then their behaviour is understandable because being "professionals" that's the only way to stay relevant since lacking the capacity to add anything useful to any thread whatsoever they are hardpressed for choices but why are people who have spent enough time here indulging in peddling DDM ???

Now that added something useful to the thread.

Now if BRFites do the meherbaani of viewing the posted video

Guess the mithai was not detected as camo for the jhaapad by some people then. The act of doubling FDI in defence will be seen as a massive vote of confidence maybe. As will the announcement that labs will be set up consisting of only under-35 yr olds, including all decision makers. And the rejection of ALL extensions. The deadwood over-35s must be really cheered up now.

To me it sounded like a kind princi telling an underperforming kid that he has shown the potential but now needs to shape up or ship out and that he needs to be doing this, this and this. If that didn't send a chilling message, nothing will.

[member_23461]

Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time.

[/quote]

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.

[chetak]

err you seriously cannot compare a conversion training of a already qualified pilot to basic training to become a pilot?

Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time.

Combat pilots in the Forces of the advanced countries log much more simulator hours than flight hours. This saves fuel and maintenance costs to a huge extent, prolongs life of equipment, and does not detract from developing pilot skills. Once the bulk of a combat mission training is flown on the simulator, the pilot just needs a few flight hours on the actual aircraft to consolidate his training and/or evaluation.

It's extremely foolish of our guys to burn fuel and flight hours on something that can be done far more efficiently on a flight simulator.

[chetak]

Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time.

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.[/quote]

Sirjee, how about the extremely large GFP hours (general flying practice) logged almost every day more as a ritual than as a necessity.

I did not hear of such things when I interacted even years ago with ex German AF and Israeli AF guys.

[member_23461]

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.[/quote]

Sirjee, how about the extremely large GFP hours (general flying practice) logged almost every day more as a ritual than as a
I did not hear of such things when I interacted even years ago with ex German AF and Israeli AF guys.

We were talking trg, specifically conversion trg. "extremely large GFP" is extremely rare in trg.

[chetak]

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.

Sirjee, how about the extremely large GFP hours (general flying practice) logged almost every day more as a ritual than as a
I did not hear of such things when I interacted even years ago with ex German AF and Israeli AF guys.

We were talking trg, specifically conversion trg. "extremely large GFP" is extremely rare in trg.[/quote]

oops, wokay.

Sorry to have butted in, I was talking about everything else but training.

[negi]

IN and CG aviation arm needs more flight simulators specially how that even the Coast Guard is ramping up it's air operations big time , lot of it's recruits are dependent on IN's Dornier fleet for training and this after CG is open to those who get a CP license from private.

[Austin]

PM criticising DRDO is not a new thing , I recollect from PVN days PM has constructively criticised DRDO in various occasion and Modi criticising DRDO is nothing new more like been there done that.

[srin]

At the end of the day, money talks, and DRDO got a huge boost to its budget this year. That is a sign of support.

[Karan M]

Name a few products that did make it, ignore the fact that deliveries are behind schedule, keep blaming the gov for not investing enough, ignore poor production quality etc.

Why should I spoonfeed you child? There is enough data out there about the kind of programs that have made it & the challenges overcome. Of course, they require some knowledge to analyze and understand. Stuff which you lack & are too arrogant to gain either, given how silly your attitude is.

Is the world made up of people who have to pander to you baba log? When was the last time you posted anything useful or anything worth more than a rant?

Aren't people who clutch onto mummy papa purse strings thinking along the same lines? You know, sit in the basement, pretend like you're looking for a job, raid the fridge, and then whine when your parents pull you up for getting nothing done. But hey, you can always pull up the excuse that you showered, and you have some kind of plan and that you just need a little more TIME. Blame the lighting, blame your parents, blame depression, etc. At the end of the day you just have to get out there and compete. What are you afraid of? It's okay, sitting in the basement pretending to be an expert on manufacturing (I assume you also play with legos) will eventually become too much for your beloved parents that they will have no choice but to kick your a** to the curb and make you learn a thing or two about personal responsibility.

Ooh my - so here you were, making pompous comments about somebody you don't have a clue about, but when caught out with a pointed rejoinder, here comes the over the top rant. But no counter to the truth, that what I posted in turn was the plain truth. That you couldn't counter. So simple to see through the likes of you baba log...zero achievement, all f@rt, tough Archie andrews stuff of basement, legos included (ooh Amrika references ooh my).

Hmm, so truth hurts eh, that as things stand you are a snivelling kid, yet to do anything, eating off papa-ji's wallet, talking big on the internet & name dropping ("oooh my girlfriends dad is a bigshot") and similar BS to disguise your complete lack of any sort of practical knowledge?

Don't worry Modi is experiencing quite a bit of unhappiness now after looking at DRDO and others. It's only a matter of time before he starts axing the hell out of it...notwithstanding the whiners on the sidelines. Keep at it though. Perhaps, you can post about how DRDO and OFB are producing world class small arms line, mosquito repellent, etc .

Kiddo, Modi is not your BFF or anyone you know in person for you to speak on his behalf your deluded fantasies apart. "Doval is this", "Modi will do that"..fcks sake, Rahul Gandhi probably has a better idea of what Modi will do or wont do, than you do, and that's saying something.

Modi has a record of setting tough expectations and supporting organizations he believes in. The BJP manifesto makes that clear & in the current context, he did his bit, gave a positive speech, handed out awards, commented about the DRDO being "vedic rishis" etc and more importantly, has ensured a substantial hike in their budget, far more than any prior Govt in the past few terms. In short, because, he has hands on experience of administration & has an idea of technocratic programs.

In short he put his money where his thoughts were because, he unlike you, need not talk tough on the internet but somebody who understands how hard it is to do things & what it takes to get things done - which is funding.

So come back and brag, after you achieve something. In short, you find it easy to talk cr@p, because you have done nothing & have had a free ride.

Till then all you are, with your overweening arrogance and name dropping ("my so and so uncle, my chachaji, my mamaji) is yet another child with access to the internet and no common sense to your name

[Karan M]

At the end of the day, money talks, and DRDO got a huge boost to its budget this year. That is a sign of support.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/07/h ... et-no.html

Signalling decisively that India would place greater focus on building, not just buying, defence equipment, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has massively boosted funding to the Defence Research & Development Organisation. The DRDO’s capital allocation of Rs 5,975 crore, provided in February in the United Progressive Alliance’s interim budget, has been hiked by almost 60 per cent to Rs 9,298 crore, the largest-ever raise in the DRDO’s history.

Enough said.

[Karan M]

Oh even better, then there are folk/s who are not even indian residents, are now beholden to western laws et al, talking of "prince meant this" "under 35 year olds was lack of confidence in indian institutions". No contribution to Indian security whatsoever, trash talking those who actually defend it.

Spinning away every positive critique as some indictment. Bosslog, guess what, the SDREs are all doing well without your scintillating brilliance.

http://www.niticentral.com/2014/04/07/b ... 08549.html

BJP manifesto summed up in 22 key points

Strengthening DRDO and encourage private sector participation including FDI in selected defence industries.

In short, they clearly had a dialogue ongoing with the scientific community (many rtd folks are still active) & did exactly what they promised.

Deal with it.

[Karan M]

It is a mystery why some people equate PSUs exclusively to "Indian" and anyone who castigates the PSUs as somehow "anti-Indian". Are Tata and Mahindra not SDREs also? Is this merely a red herring or a difficult vritti that needs removal?

Another pesky thought modification is the notion that NAL/HAL/DRDO somehow compete with each other and thus must have separate R&D facilities to design and make aircraft, never mind that they are all really subsidiaries that have the same "stockholder"(GoI).

Bhaiyyajee, the TATA and Mahindra types don't need you to speak for them.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lio-tasl/2

"Today we consider the DRDO our guru," says Chaudhry (TATA SED CEO)

In short, your spin is entirely your own & reflects your mindset.

Lay off the bad stuff will ya.

Yeah, clearly, because the "good stuff" is being monopolized by you. And clearly, you don't intend to lay off it, but keep smokin' it..

NaMo rests my case. IMO, the severe jhaapad he delivered to DRDO even while handing out sweets (double ouch!) is only the beginning as is the 49% FDI. The next step will end these dodos forever and thank God and NaMO for that. A true Indian this man. A regurgitation of alphabet soup mixed with numbers to denote accomplishments won't give the air force a fighter or the army guns.

LOL at your "interpretation"- much the same as your "interpretation" and attempt to speak for TATA et al.

Boss, you are living in an alternate reality, wherein NaMo "didn't" motivate the folks who work for him (which includes all the Govt employees), wherein he "didn't raise" their budget by 70%.

In fact, the severe jhaapad that NaMo delivered is to you & your ilk which wish to tie the Indian defence industry to the coattails of powers abroad in the guise of "efficiency" (JSF woo hoo) & the kind of dodo's who support these moves.

Yes NaMo is a true "Indian" (resident in India, Indian citizen, Indian PM) and i daresay, he is going to continue to repose faith in Indian institutions (he's even a GOI employee, oh my!) and give you & your ilk severe khujli (that means tough India centric decisions on defence, trade/WTO etc) whilst showing what your wishes are worth. To begin with, bye bye ULH howitzers from abroad & more money for Indian orgs to compete as they need be.

So please take your crocodile tears elsewhere along with your "character certificate" of what shri Namo is and what he isn't, we who voted for him know perfectly well what he is & what he was elected to do, while you folks can wait & watch how nicely Indian interests will be served. Unlike your lot, he ain't confused, straddling two camps.

[Manish_Sharma]

Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time.

Combat pilots in the Forces of the advanced countries log much more simulator hours than flight hours. This saves fuel and maintenance costs to a huge extent, prolongs life of equipment, and does not detract from developing pilot skills. Once the bulk of a combat mission training is flown on the simulator, the pilot just needs a few flight hours on the actual aircraft to consolidate his training and/or evaluation.

It's extremely foolish of our guys to burn fuel and flight hours on something that can be done far more efficiently on a flight simulator.

Couple of years back I remember seeing a report by a journalist during an airshow. That a 50+ year russian pilot took him up in Mig-29 to do all sorts of gymnastics, while journalist had to wear G-suit the pilot didn't, when journo asked the pilot answered "I have been doing this for so many years that my body is used to it", so maybe the real flying embeds centain capabilities in body's memory that pilot is able to perform optimum when the real situation arises.

[Karan M]

Negi, when I said "now for news on FSAPDS" - I meant, I hope there is news on FSAPDS next. There were three ammo types to be qualified on MK2 - this thermobaric type round, the new FSAPDS & LAHAT. We have had news about two, we know a 125mm MK2+ round is also in development for the T series, only news about the 120mm FSAPDs is awaited. At Defexpo we had the first official confirmation about the round, but it was not heavy on details. The current Arjun FSAPDS round is actually very dated since its from the 90's & was held up in the infinite trials process over the entire Arjun saga. Now that production is underway & the tank is in regular IA service, new FSAPDS rounds are a necessity & part of a mission mode program per reports.

[Victor]

Bhaiyyajee, the TATA and Mahindra types don't need you to speak for them.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... lio-tasl/2

Quote:
"Today we consider the DRDO our guru," says Chaudhry (TATA SED CEO)


In short, your spin is entirely your own & reflects your mindset.

Selective quotes don't change the fact that when NaMo says Make In India, he does not mean "Make in Indian PSU". To everyone but the willfully blind, NaMo has asked the PSUs to pull up their socks and drop the chalta hai attitude or perish in the face of competition from both foreign and Indian companies that he has already unleashed.

From the same article you selectively quoted:

"We (that is Tata) are now ready to bid for tenders for full aircraft manufacturing and complete radar systems. These are two diverse areas that can be done in India today separately by two PSUs — Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). This shows you where private sector capacities in India have reached."

In short, both HAL and BEL have serious competition for the first time ever from a single Tata subsidiary. This is just the leading edge of the coming tsunamo.

In fact, the severe jhaapad that NaMo delivered is to you & your ilk which wish to tie the Indian defence industry to the coattails of powers abroad in the guise of "efficiency"

Heh, heh. The first thing NDA did was suggest upto 100% FDI (as in Foreign Direct Investment) for defense mfg but settled for 49% FDI for now which is double the previous level. This was done, using your words, "to tie the Indian defence industry to the coattails of powers abroad in the guise of "efficiency". Can you think of any other reasons?

In today's world, only the severely paranoid and insecure seek to insulate themselves from foreign influence for non-strategic run of the mill stuff like fighters and guns. Nobody can be 100% desi any more, not even America. Your chosen article above mentions that the US President's official Marine One Sikorsky contains several Tata components. Go figure.

Unlike your convoluted interpretation, what NaMo means by his slogan of "Make in India" is "foreigners, we want to give you incentives to come and make your weapons in India in partnership with Indian private companies".

Unlike your lot, he ain't confused, straddling two camps.

You're still plugging away at "Indian vs non-Indian" as if that was the main issue which it is not but it doesn't matter because you are right: NaMo ain't confused straddling two camps for sure. That's why he wants foreign companies to work in partnership with Indian companies and is giving them the incentive to do so. That's the kind of self assurance and confidence India deserves, not hide under Mama's petticoat PSU mentality.

[Rien]

Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time.

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.[/quote]

I am citing Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja that 90% of training on C-130J is simulator.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... pective/2/

In India, the numbers can be counted on one’s finger tips.

I0 is the maximum number he could mean. I'm going with the Air Marshall on this point, unless you have clear proof he is wrong?

[chackojoseph]

Tata Advanced Systems to supply airframes for Pilatus PC-12 NG

The partnership is also important in the context of Pilatus’ offset obligation resulting from the sale of the PC-7 MkII Training Aircraft System to the Indian Air Force”, says Markus Bucher, CEO of Pilatus Aircraft Ltd.

[srai]

quote]Almost all pilots learn on simulators in air forces across the world. The point lies that real life flying hours is a tiny minority of the time, 90% being spent on simulators. IAF is a massive outlier among AF. The article I linked mentioned China has 60 simulators, we are around 10! Israel, as an example of a high quality air force, also spends its time on simulator training. No other nation on this planet has this bizarre training methodology.

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 182813.htm

Only third world nations don't have simulators. No need for more Pilatus, we can develop the HTT-40 in its own sweet time. /quote]

What are you saying sir, I have trained with RAF and USAF, the simulator content is not 90 % as claimed by you. Its close to 40 % and is similar to what we follow in Hawk trg at IAF station Bidar. Your gen on number of simulators (only 10) is wrong. Bidar alone has six.

I am citing Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja that 90% of training on C-130J is simulator.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... pective/2/

In India, the numbers can be counted on one’s finger tips.

I0 is the maximum number he could mean. I'm going with the Air Marshall on this point, unless you have clear proof he is wrong?

Rien and DhruvB,

Here is an excerpt of the context of that statement:

...
Simulator training is applicable not only to the IAF but also to the civil aviation sector. Currently, there are about 1,280 Full Flight Simulators (FFS) in operation worldwide certified for pilot training in the Commercial Air Transport (CAT) sector by the relevant National Civil Aviation Regulatory Authorities. Out of these, about 550 are in the US, 75 in the UK, 60 in China, 50 each in Germany and Japan and 40 in France. In India, the numbers can be counted on one’s finger tips. Clearly, much needs to be done on this front.
...

He is talking about civilian simulators in India. There are only a few CAT FFS in India.

Coming back to the IAF training, look at the section "Present Status" in that article for all the different types of simulators the IAF uses.

[rakall]

Here is PM's full speech at DRDO..Please Listen to this, and each individual decide for self if he really "berated" or "criticised" DRDO as implied by the media..

Remember in his independence day speech he alluded to "mera kyaa.. mujhe kyaa".. that was a pointer to the attitude of public servants as a whole.. I felt he used the "chaltha hain" in a similar vein..

Whether it is reference to "mera kyaa.. mujhe kyaa" or "chaltha hain" or PM's references to cleanliness -- also reflection of not only public services, but also the inherent tendency in the society in general..



http://youtu.be/T8e3YnS45HI

[NRao]

A lot more of a motivational speech than anything else.

Perhaps other PMs/politicians/leaders have provided "criticism" - but have they provided the funding boost that Modi has? As far as I can see Modi has done two right things: funds first, followed by a nice doze of motivation.

The other thing I seem to have noticed is his clear leaning to include all of India, not just PSU.

All this will take some time (5 yearish), but glad he got that ball rolling.

[NRao]

DRDO Committed to Meet 4 'S': Chander

They are on a roll with these alphabets:

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has committed to meet three ‘S’-Speed, Skill and Scale - besides adding Swadeshi (fourth S) to it.

According to Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and DRDO Chief Avinash Chander, in order to fully explore and harness the potentiality and make it economically viable, it is essential to create a credible export market for Indian defence products as outlined by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The DRDO head said the premier research and development organisation has set a number of targets to achieve in the coming year. They include final operational clearance of LCA, user trials of Samudrika EW system and software defined radio, flight test of Indo-Israel LRSAM, first flight of Rustom-II in full configuration, induction of AEW&C, technical trials of next generation ALTAS sonar and user trials of Arjun Tank fired thermo-baric ammunitions, one of the first of its kind being developed in the world.

“We have taken two major initiatives to improve performance. Firstly, activating a cohesive multi-layered interactive system with armed forces, defence production and industry and secondly, to involve students and academia to create a workforce of 5,000 to 10,000 in academic institutions working for defence through centres of technology being created in multiple institutions across the country. This will fuel technology innovation. We are also committed to work towards technology leadership in defence”, he said.

Describing the achievements of the DRDO in recent years, Chander said production of Akash, Brahmos and Pinaka-I has added a new punch to Indian armed forces. Current orders for production of DRDO items cost `1.69 lakh crores. “The success of Akash has instilled confidence in armed forces to use indigenous missile instead of planned imports,” he pointed out.

Highlights of the successes, the DRDO achieved recently, were the initial operational clearance of LCA, successful test of ICBM Agni-5, clearance for the induction of Agni-4, criticality of Arihant, India’s first nuclear submarine, flight test of state-of-art air-to-air missile Astra, test of rocket Pinaka-II with enhanced range of 65 kms and user evaluation of indigenous ammunition BMCS for Artillery guns.

“In line with the long term integrated perspective plan, DRDO is launching several new programmes including man portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile, SLCM, Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft and Un-manned Combat Air Vehicle, long range torpedo and high energy weapons. Besides, cyber security and welfare of the soldiers continue to be thrust areas”, the DRDO chief added.

[SaiK]

A family is normally counted by the number of kids in it. A zero kid family will not define anything about production quality. but, then I can't expect much from an R&D venture though!

[nash]

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/cnbc-t ... 64443.html

However, the caveat is that company seeking permission of the government for FDI up to 49 percent should be an Indian company owned and controlled by Indians.

It also said that the Indian company involved should have some kind of design and development capability.

[Indranil]

Tata Advanced Systems to supply airframes for Pilatus PC-12 NG.

Very interesting. Chacko sahab, any ideas on what parts they are making.

Coincidentally, PC-24 was rolled out recently. In April, I had a long conversation with an engineer from Pilatus working on the PC-24. He observed that the PC-24 is the cheapest in its class and by a big margin. This, according to him, was because they were reusing many existing parts. In my perception, that could not have accounted for the difference in price that he was quoting. So either the price difference is lower and/or there are other factors in play which he did not know or want to divulge.

Anyways, the point of my post is that HAL/NAL should look at making a jet-powered version of Saras. Afterall, the PC-24 has 3 primary claims to fame:
1. It is a business jet with turboprop like properties, i.e. it can take off and land in short unpaved runways (820m)
2. It provides great cabin height (5'1") for its class.
3. It is highly reconfigurable.

In May 2014, they sold 84 PC-24s at the European Business Aviation Conference and Exhibition.

Saras has very similar features:
1. It was designed for short unprepared runways too. It currently needs a runway of 850 mtrs.
2. It has cabin height of 5' 7.5".
3. It was designed as a multirole aircraft which can be configured in the field to have commuter, luxury, ambulance, and combination versions.
4. It already has a low-wing, T-tail configuration, fuselage mounted engine configuration. If required, the stretched version for 17-19 seats (Saras-S) should be revisited.

To start off, the planes can use off-the-shelf turbofans. Future versions can be powered by the HTFE-25 versions. I think such a plane would have given the PC-24 and the entire light jet category (Phenom, Learjet, Citation) a run for their money, quite literally. Unfortunately NAL/HAL move so slowly that there is a time-wrap. I have been waiting for Saras to fly again in "fifteen days" since January!

[VijayN]

Not sure if this was posted before (Hope this is the right thread).

Recent visit of Chuck Hagel -Deals offered by US

http://dailythepatriot.com/us-opens-def ... -on-table/

[Victor]

HAL/NAL should look at making a jet-powered version of Saras. ...such a plane would have given the PC-24 and the entire light jet category (Phenom, Learjet, Citation) a run for their money, quite literally. Unfortunately NAL/HAL move so slowly that there is a time-wrap. I have been waiting for Saras to fly again in "fifteen days" since January!

Agree and I had posted about this a couple of years ago too.

NAL should try mating the straight-wing Saras with small jets like the ERJ-135-140-145 (which IAF uses). Who knows, the jets may solve the Saras' weight problem too. Worth trying anyway as the cost should be minimal. If it works, go with more powerful jets, swept wings and longer fuselage.

Airlines the world over have moved from turboprops to jets for short-medium passenger aircraft and it makes no sense plugging on with the prop version which will have almost zero export potential and limit production numbers. Don't understand the snail's pace here.

[member_28108]

HAL/NAL should look at making a jet-powered version of Saras. ...such a plane would have given the PC-24 and the entire light jet category (Phenom, Learjet, Citation) a run for their money, quite literally. Unfortunately NAL/HAL move so slowly that there is a time-wrap. I have been waiting for Saras to fly again in "fifteen days" since January!

Agree and I had posted about this a couple of years ago too.

NAL should try mating the straight-wing Saras with small jets like the ERJ-135-140-145 (which IAF uses). Who knows, the jets may solve the Saras' weight problem too. Worth trying anyway as the cost should be minimal. If it works, go with more powerful jets, swept wings and longer fuselage.

Airlines the world over have moved from turboprops to jets for short-medium passenger aircraft and it makes no sense plugging on with the prop version which will have almost zero export potential and limit production numbers. Don't understand the snail's pace here.

Actually as far as fuel efficency goes truboprops are considered more efficient for short and medium distances and there is an argument for the returm of turboprops in this era of low profit margins .

[Indranil]

I agree. Turboprops have the advantage of efficiency. In fact, we will most probably see a burgeoning market for a sturdy, slower, cheaper and more efficient turbofan powered plane like the GA-18.

I only meant that there should be a turbofan powered version because there is another spectrum of the market where time is of higher priority than costs. There are two reasons for doing this:
1. It is a low hanging fruit.
2. Growth potential: A much bigger pusher propeller plane is highly unlikely. On a 30-40 seater turboprop, the engines will most likely be mounted on the wings.

Lastly, NAL is a great lab, but project management doesn't look like its forte. So, I feel a commercial project like this one should be managed by someone else and NAL should be used as a design lab only. CNM-5 is a great example of this. Contrast that with the fate of Hansa-S.

[Rien]

He is talking about civilian simulators in India. There are only a few CAT FFS in India.

Coming back to the IAF training, look at the section "Present Status" in that article for all the different types of simulators the IAF uses.

Sorry Srai. I was careless about reading the article. My main point, which was adequately supported by others above in this thread. Up to 90% of flight hours can be simulated(C-130 J example), and China for example uses many more flight simulators than we do. So does USA, Israel etc.

So there is no operational need for more Pilatus because we can just use simulators. That is my main point which was entirely lost on this digression about simulators. This means we can wait for HTT-40 development and can cancel those Pilatus orders.

Indian pilots used to train on Kirans and Deepaks. I would like IAF pilots to know they can trust and rely on Bharat maal, and how better than through direct experience? If you've come up as a pilot flying on HTT-40, Sitara and Tejas you will automatically benchmark everything videshi against desi maal. And that will mean less imports. A big win.

[ManjaM]

Lastly, NAL is a great lab, but project management doesn't look like its forte. So, I feel a commercial project like this one should be managed by someone else and NAL should be used as a design lab only. CNM-5 is a great example of this. Contrast that with the fate of Hansa-S.

Has the NM5 been certified? Last I heard MM was trying to get it certified in Australia after DGCA expressed their inability to certify a new design.

[NRao]

Lastly, NAL is a great lab, but project management doesn't look like its forte. So, I feel a commercial project like this one should be managed by someone else and NAL should be used as a design lab only.

Each institution needs PM. No use having an outside entity Manage projects. Perhaps even allow natives, within an entity, to change track and be trained as PMs.

But, yes, I have been saying this for years, the problem with India is PM (Management in general).

CNM-5 is a great example of this. Contrast that with the fate of Hansa-S.

Indian owned perhaps, but designed and built by a non-Indian entity. Although the ownership has been transferred, the good practices have been retained.

In India such practices have to be built up.

[Indranil]

Lastly, NAL is a great lab, but project management doesn't look like its forte. So, I feel a commercial project like this one should be managed by someone else and NAL should be used as a design lab only. CNM-5 is a great example of this. Contrast that with the fate of Hansa-S.

Has the NM5 been certified? Last I heard MM was trying to get it certified in Australia after DGCA expressed their inability to certify a new design.

Not yet, but the process is on. It is in the pipeline after GA-10 gets certified, this fall. The C-NM5 will get certified by CASA, FAA, EASA and DGCA, which is great! It is supposed to hit the market in 2015 and has already got orders for 20 aircraft (from China).

Indian owned perhaps, but designed and built by a non-Indian entity. Although the ownership has been transferred, the good practices have been retained.

In India such practices have to be built up.

Nope, it was designed completely in India in 3 years (2006-2009). Mahindra joined in 2008. Then a prototype was built using rapid prototyping methods at GippsAero in 10 months and test flown in 2011. It is slated to be manufactured at Mahindra's upcoming plant at Malur.

[Zynda]

Nope, it was designed completely in India in 3 years (2006-2009). Mahindra joined in 2008. Then a prototype was built using rapid prototyping methods at GippsAero in 10 months and test flown in 2011. It is slated to be manufactured at Mahindra's upcoming plant at Malur.

Who designed this? Satyam? Or GippsAero has an office in India?

[srai]

Saurav Jha - Interview with the Chief of DRDO, Avinash Chander -Part II

Thursday , August 28, 2014 at 12 : 59

Saurav Jha: Talking about the future, one area that is always supposed to be 'five years away' is that of directed energy weapons (DEW). India too has programs in this sphere with weaponization being pursued in labs such as CHESS. So what is the status of India's DEW pursuits?

Avinash Chander: We have been for too long on the fringe of this area. Our initial aim was to create a centre which will look at how to convert technologies into weapon systems. That centre has just come up. But definitely within the next decade we are looking for sufficient deployable capability. We must have a deployable weapon system within one decade.

Saurav Jha: Which of the two technologies is likely to be weaponized earlier, high power microwave or solid state laser?

Avinash Chander: lasers will have better opportunities to start with. Because for harnessing microwave power in a more 'directional' way, much more work has to be done.

Saurav Jha: Turning to cybersecurity, there is today a sort of melding between cyber and electronic warfare techniques with American programs such as 'Senior Suter'. How is India keeping pace with such trends?

Avinash Chander: Well, India needs to create a cyber test range. That is very critical and very important. Cyber is an area where nobody shares and you cannot share either, understandably. You can share information but not the tools. Each side has to develop its own tools and that is where our stress is. The good part is that Indians are rather keyed up in the information technology domain. I think we have to only channelize that manpower towards more innovative defensive applications.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, aerospace is another domain where India is looking to emerge with credible homegrown platforms. In that sense, will the Tejas Mk-I attain final operational clearance this year?

Avinash Chander: We are working hard to do that. I am sure all the weapon trials will be over. There may be some delay in the refuelling system, but other then that we are confident that we'll meet targets.

Saurav Jha: What is the rough unit cost of a Tejas Mk-I?

Avinash Chander: I can't comment on the exact figure, but I think it is around Rs 200 crores plus. HAL will be able to give you the exact figure.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, it seems that in-house design for the Tejas Mk-II is complete and ADA is moving towards design validation?

Avinash Chander: Yes.

Saurav Jha: So how will a partner for design validation be chosen?

Avinash Chander: At the moment we are only looking for a consultant, like we had for Mk-I. We are not really looking at a partner for production. But if a viable interesting offer comes in, I am sure the government will take a look at it.

Saurav Jha: Even on a bilateral basis?

Avinash Chander: Even on a bilateral basis. But irrespective of that the program will continue. It is not dependent on any international collaboration.

Saurav Jha: At the same time given that the Americans, have started preliminary studies on sixth generation fighters, and are producing their second fifth generation fighter, what is the status of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project?

Avinash Chander: AMCA is going to be a fifth plus generation aircraft. Once again, the design is getting completed. And we are making a detailed feasibility study which has to get accepted. Broad parameters and configuration have been generally agreed upon. We are looking to complete this part within a year or two and then move further.

Saurav Jha: But Dr Chander don't you think the engine issue could become an impediment to quick progress on this program as well?

Avinash Chander: For the moment, we are planning to import the engine, either through a joint development or through an agreement. In any system today, it is impossible to have a zero foreign exchange component. What matters is the IP of the total aircraft, which is Indian. In that there will be components that you might be buying from elsewhere, because it is more cost effective. There are ICs that you will be buying anyway, but what you make with those ICs is ultimately your system, your design.

Saurav Jha: But in the defence domain there are operational security considerations...

Avinash Chander: Well, as far as the engine is concerned, yes. But then that is where you have to have a certain relationship, certain equations. And you have to see over a period of time, as to how to secure your supply line. It may be through purchase, it may be through setting up a parallel line, through some in house activities. But once you see the process... then the solutions also evolve.

Saurav Jha: Now one area most crucial for operational capability is the availability of ammunition. We often hear about the military being worried about shortages in this sphere. Do you see this situation changing in the next ten years?

Avinash Chander: This is one area where DRDO was not really involved or looking much at because most of the things were being imported or being produced here under transfer of technology. But of late because of the critical gaps that have emerged we have started entering this sphere along with OFB. So there are many areas now where we are getting in, like tank ammunition for instance. Particularly FSAPDS, which we are now going to benchmark with imported systems.

Saurav Jha: So are you looking at comparative trials between indigenously developed and imported FSAPDS?

Avinash Chander: Yes we are going to have comparative trials and we are confident that our system will meet requirements.

Saurav Jha: What are some of the other ammunition initiatives that are advancing well?

Avinash Chander: Well, there is the 155 mm bi-modular charge system, which was one of the most critical items held up, has already been evaluated and has proved to be very successful. We are confident that bulk orders for production will be coming soon. And a huge plant in Nalanda is coming up for that which will become operational by 2016 or so. A very effective joint process between DRDO and OFB has shaped up this system and it is now performing better than what we have been importing.

Similarly, coming to other areas such as mines, grenades etc. We have developed grenades like the Shivalik multi-mode grenade, which have much better performance than what was being earlier produced, better safety record and so forth. We are also doing very well in different kinds of mines.

So there are a wide area of munitions that we have started getting into, mostly need driven.

Saurav Jha: What about artillery rockets such as the Pinaka Mk-II?

Avinash Chander: Pinaka MK-II has been tested and we are offering it for user evaluation trials. It has a range of 65 km and we are now starting work on a Pinaka-III which will be a fully guided rocket with better accuracy and longer range.

Saurav Jha: And what would the guidance scheme be?

Avinash Chander: Inertial with satellite updates.

Saurav Jha: Multi-constellation satellite update? From the IRNSS as well?

Avinash Chander: Yes it will be able to receive updates from multiple constellations including the IRNSS.

Saurav Jha: Turning to tube artillery, what is the status of the Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS) programme?

Avinash Chander: ATAGS programme is going strong. We expect the barrel firing to be done by the end of this year. The programme is on schedule.

Saurav Jha: Will it be available for trials by 2017-18?

Avinash Chander: Yes the entire gun should be available for trials by 2017-18. 2017 in fact.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, what about small arms?

Avinash Chander: We have developed a joint venture protective carbine, which we have offered to the Army for evaluation trials. We have also developed a corner-shot rifle, which is also available for trials. Beyond that we aren't taking up that many small arms projects. OFB of course is doing some other things. But today I feel this is an area where domestic industry can play a major role, because industry has the full capability to do this class of systems. We should see how we can involve industry in this area.

Saurav Jha: Indeed, in the United States there is a veritable cottage industry based around AR-15 derivatives...

Avinash Chander: Exactly, there's nothing in these systems which cannot be done by any good engineering industry. So I think we need a policy relook which gets private industry into small arms. They can use their own technologies, some joint ventures, some DRDO based products and then they will prove themselves over time. I think we have done good products in this sphere but have not been able to market it effectively. And if people here don't want it, we can always give it to a private player who can look for export avenues.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, all kinds of convoluted arguments are sometimes made in this country against Indian military exports, even though imports are somehow deemed thoroughly moral by the same set of people. How would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: If you see any market, it is the need which creates the capacity. Nobody creates idle capacity hoping for a market. If a market is seen to exist for exports you will have any number of private players willing to come forward to take part in it. What India needs is the freedom to create. All these years we have been bogged down by controls.

The government is committed to military exports and we are also committed because today we have many indigenously developed world class technologies under production. Given that these are actually replacing imported systems, they can definitely be deemed export worthy. If we want to make our systems cost effective, if we want to have an area of influence, India has to get into military exports.

[Indranil]

Nope, it was designed completely in India in 3 years (2006-2009). Mahindra joined in 2008. Then a prototype was built using rapid prototyping methods at GippsAero in 10 months and test flown in 2011. It is slated to be manufactured at Mahindra's upcoming plant at Malur.

Who designed this? Satyam? Or GippsAero has an office in India?

Mostly CSIR-NAL. Designers from Mahindra Aerospace Private Limited (MAPL) helped as well.

[member_23694]

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, what about small arms?

Avinash Chander: We have developed a joint venture protective carbine, which we have offered to the Army for evaluation trials. We have also developed a corner-shot rifle, which is also available for trials. Beyond that we aren't taking up that many small arms projects. OFB of course is doing some other things. But today I feel this is an area where domestic industry can play a major role, because industry has the full capability to do this class of systems. We should see how we can involve industry in this area.

Saurav Jha: Indeed, in the United States there is a veritable cottage industry based around AR-15 derivatives...

Avinash Chander: Exactly, there's nothing in these systems which cannot be done by any good engineering industry. So I think we need a policy relook which gets private industry into small arms. They can use their own technologies, some joint ventures, some DRDO based products and then they will prove themselves over time. I think we have done good products in this sphere but have not been able to market it effectively. And if people here don't want it, we can always give it to a private player who can look for export avenues.

Nice to hear this and hopefully apart from small arms, industry is considered competent for a lot of other projects too.

[RoyG]

Unlike some on BRF, even the head of DRDO is now coming out and saying that private industry is now competent enough. He knows that PSU culture is on its way out. It's only a matter of time before they are reduced to a DARPA type agency. OFB will be finished all together.

[NRao]

Who designed this? Satyam? Or GippsAero has an office in India?

Mostly CSIR-NAL. Designers from Mahindra Aerospace Private Limited (MAPL) helped as well.

Apologies. You are right.

It says it right there on their web site and I read right past it!!