Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[arthuro]

Interview with Colonel Jerome Bellanger, Commander of BA 113 "Commander Antoine de Saint-Exupery," Saint-Dizier.

[...][MRO:]

We are organized according to a logic of activity to achieve and not a logic of availability to have [1]. It is therefore to be able to have the right parts at the right time in the shortest possible time in order to repair the aircraft and return it to flight level. Concretely , this means, in particular, the presence of industrial inside the base: industrial facilities are near the aircraft and provide ,with a direct link with the parent companies, the right boxes at the right time. Last June, Dassault joined Snecma and Thales at Saint Dizier. It's a bit like a stand of formula 1 when a machine comes up with a failure, we are immediately in a position to fix it. This also applies when supporting our aircrafts abroad.
[...]
These reforms have resulted in a cumulative increase between 20 and 30% in matter of activity . This gain allows us to best meet the needs of our units for their training. Indeed, a versatile aircraft like the Rafale has many configurations (with or without pod, tanks, ... missiles.). Whereas before we put on the parking Rafale with rather generic configurations, which simplified the preparation of the aircraft, now we reconfigure if necessary and at any time, according to the wish of the flying units.
[...]
What is your assessment at this stage of the evolution of the Rafale and its support?

It was always said that the Rafale was an airplane with a huge potential. It is a reality. The Rafale keeps its promises and demonstrates it in operation. This is not stonewalling , it is a reality. It is an airplane that is constantly upgraded with successive standard and merely keep the promises attributed to it from the beginning. With the first F1 ,Navy, F2 standards, there was a bit of air to ground. Today the standard F3-3 offer "Reco" NG, ASMP-A, laser shooting, AESA radar. With this active antenna radar, it is now a successfull system whose strength, more than range, agility or reliability, is truly its sensor fusion. Tomorrow the F3R standard , scheduled to be commissioned by 2018, will be further enriched by the lessons learned from recent OPEX, with among others the Meteor missile and the PDL-NG (new generation targeting pod [also called Talios] to replace the Damocles).

Conversely, as the standard has evolved, the use of the Rafale was different, depending on the theater it was involved . [...] :

• In Afghanistan, it was relatively conventional and basic mission: the type of mission that any pilot has experienced in his career.

• With regard to Libya, we took off from St. Dizier to perform missions with extremely short reaction time. We had only a few days between the pre-notice of the intervention and the UN vote.

• This was the same situation in Mali, with an additional challenge: to demonstrate our ability to last. Mission accomplished, as we took off from Saint-Dizier with a 9:45 mission to treat about 20 AASM targets in Mali, and took off again with the same aircrafts [from Ndjamena ] to perform a new mission within hours after.[...] Mali was in this sense an extremely successful mission where all the air power was used at short notice in order to strike pre-determined targets which were rescheduled during the flight.
[...]
In conclusion, we do not encounter any recurring problems and the aircraft has been operational for a long time.

http://www.operationnels.com/2014/09/01 ... um=twitter

[SaiK]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21239
French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard

Not OT considering the country source of origin for MMRCA.

[RoyG]

Rafale deal will either be completely/partially scrapped. Too much money at this stage and we won't be getting much technology. It's crunch time and the french have to hand over the keys to some sensitive tech if they want at least a chance to keep the deal alive.

[eklavya]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21239
French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard

Not OT considering the country source of origin for MMRCA.

So, what does this news story tell us about Rafale/MMRCA?

[eklavya]

Rafale deal will either be completely/partially scrapped. Too much money at this stage and we won't be getting much technology. It's crunch time and the french have to hand over the keys to some sensitive tech if they want at least a chance to keep the deal alive.

I'm a bit confused by your post: Will it be scrapped or not? What technology will we be getting, and what won't we be getting that we wanted? What sensitive technology do we want to keep the deal alive?

Specifics please, if you have any.

[NRao]

AF can’t afford delay in Rafale deal: Air chief

[...]In an exclusive interview to HT, Raha said, “It will not be appropriate to make any changes in the process. The current government has set the pace of work and things are moving fast enough on the fighter deal.” The IAF chief refused to set a deadline for signing the Rafale deal but said “it’s going to happen soon”. India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January 2012 after Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.
“Rafale has run through the finish line. It’s too late in the day to parachute into the race. The door is closed,” a senior defence ministry official said on the counteroffer made by the European consortium.[...]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 59339.aspx

I thought France was asked to revise the cost structure:

Air chief marshal Arup Raha has said that it is critical to keep the $25 billion (Rs 1,50,000 crore) French Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF cannot afford any more delays.

The Administration did not mean an increase Arthuro!!!!!!

[RoyG]

Rafale deal will either be completely/partially scrapped. Too much money at this stage and we won't be getting much technology. It's crunch time and the french have to hand over the keys to some sensitive tech if they want at least a chance to keep the deal alive.

I'm a bit confused by your post: Will it be scrapped or not? What technology will we be getting, and what won't we be getting that we wanted? What sensitive technology do we want to keep the deal alive?

Specifics please, if you have any.

Rafale in its present form is too expensive. Moreover, ToT is just a buzzword. France will not part with its critical tech. For the cash we are throwing at them its just not worth it. Either two things IMVHO may happen:

We cap the number at or below 80 and replace the jags and 27's. Even then, I really don't feel comfortable with it given that it will take more than 10 years if the contract is signed now to get all of them.

We scrap the deal and dump the money into the LCA program and all associated radar, weapons, and sensor technology and free float the engine program among private companies. Production and all future r&d should also go to privates overtime.

Honestly put a good radar and engine into it coupled with a HMCS and IR and radar missiles and we'll hold off the Chinese and Pakistanis off quite well. If it comes to a point where we are using laser guided munitions on Pakistani soil, it means that the country broke in half. We don't need a bomb truck aircraft anymore.

[Manish_Sharma]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21239
French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard

Not OT considering the country source of origin for MMRCA.

So, what does this news story tell us about Rafale/MMRCA?

It tells us that even after paying through our nose, the french are still haggling after 8 years of signing the deal. Negotiations/haggling is still going on for torpedo tubes ToT.

So regarding MMRCA we must be careful that all sorts of ToT etc. are signed beforehand and not left for later stages like chidu-scamthony did during scorepene signing.

Stupid hindustantimes shouldn't write things like these:

“Rafale has run through the finish line. It’s too late in the day to parachute into the race. The door is closed,” a senior defence ministry official said on the counteroffer made by the European consortium.

As during scorpene negotiations the NDA govt. had the U-boat german company removed from black list to put pressure on french, the german delegation was here with their proposals; these things help in negotiating.

I'm writing everyday on Mygov.in about asking french to do complete torpedo ToT on scorpene.

Other poster should too.

[member_26622]

AF can’t afford delay in Rafale deal: Air chief

[...]In an exclusive interview to HT, Raha said, “It will not be appropriate to make any changes in the process. The current government has set the pace of work and things are moving fast enough on the fighter deal.” The IAF chief refused to set a deadline for signing the Rafale deal but said “it’s going to happen soon”. [...]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 59339.aspx

If their is even an inkling of truth that the Air Chief said this then someone should drop a hint that India cannot afford AF if it persists with these outlandish demands.

and when are we going to get over this TOT fascination-never worked in the past and will never work in future. No shortcuts to hard work and perseverance.

[member_20292]

The MIG-27s are long in the tooth.Their airframes have limitations,thus there was no point in wasting money in a deep upgrade with the planned pensioning off of the type from 2017.

They aren't significantly older than the Jaguars (except for newer batches of the latter). Given the number of Sukhois that have suffered engine failures, the Al-31 equipped MiG-27's margins (though improved from current standards) would still have been unsafe, even for a third generation aircraft.

Reg. the German MIG-29s,they had the earliest versions,but even these were in close combat "unbeatable" according to the Luftwaffe.Read the _ and + aspects in this report.

I've read reports from Germany and Bulgaria and they aren't nearly as complimentary. The MiG-29 would almost certainly have registered a loss at the BVR stage itself against the APG-68/AMRAAM combination. Plus as a platform, it was thoroughly outclassed in terms of serviceability, MMI and endurance.

The upgraded versions will have eliminated the shortcomings in the first avatar of the Fulcrum.29Ks have even better rcs figs with stealth coatings and greater use of composites.

The F-16 meanwhile has gotten the HMCS, Aim-9X more or less equilizing the WVR equation, while still fielding a superior radar (APG-80/SABR), EO accessories and probably a better EW kit as well. As for RCS, it incorporated a treated canopy and RAM in the late 80s itself. Also got an IR topcoat with the Have Glass II.

I dont see any country apart from the USA who will be able to compete and support us in our competition with China over time.

its. only them who have the supply chain constantly upgrading itself .

and if we buy from them, it is likelier that we can influence them over time.

Russia and China are standing together now. its time to go slower on them.

[Yagnasri]

Heavy cost is going to kill the deal. I do not think AF and other supporters of the MMRCA deal will not be in a postion to push the deal now. Of course all paid media type people will try to push the deal and lose and NM and AJ may not be willing to spend huge amounts.

[NRao]

What the CAS is saying is true. IAF can no longer wait.

The problem is that some wise person decided to delink the selection from the pricing.

And India is home to Satya Savitri. So, rules being rules, and having to follow rules one has to go through without withdrawing - was cancelling part of the rules? Not that we know of.

So, France has no reason to back down. And we can see that in the constant postings of Arthuro - as an example, France must be doing the same. Talk of urgency of the plane and feign ignorance on cost. Keep hammering on IAF needs Rafale.

I do not see reduction in numbers. I do not see cancellation. Production in France is a possibility. More than likely India will shell out 30 billion and enter the record books. And France will happily toot that horn for decades to c one of how India should be proud of that record.

[deejay]

If their is even an inkling of truth that the Air Chief said this then someone should drop a hint that India cannot afford AF if it persists with these outlandish demands.

and when are we going to get over this TOT fascination-never worked in the past and will never work in future. No shortcuts to hard work and perseverance.

Yes Sir, ever since I started reading BRF, I have always got this feeling that India cannot afford the Air Force. We need to shut it down.

[Manish_Sharma]

25 billion isn't as much a big price as made out to be, imagine paying 2.5 billion dollars for 22 apache and 15 chinooks, that too readymade off the shelf purchase. What does it come to, average 100 million $ per helicopter?

Or a 2010 year $647 million M777 howitzer deal is now going to cost $885 million.

[member_20453]

DJ sahab, the apache deal is for 1.4 Billion and the remaining 1.1 Billion for Chinook and the deal including life time service/maintenance contracts as well as weapons. 22 choppers have a total cost of 64 million per bird and 15 chinooks have a cost of around 73 million per bird (expected since a much bigger chopper)

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/in ... elicopters

Actually in the grand scheme of the deal 64 million per armed bird including service and maintenance is actually very good for the value it delivers.

If the Government of India selects the Boeing-U.S. Army proposal, the Government of India will request a possible sale of 50 T700-GE-701D engines, 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 12 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles, 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles, and 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors, rockets, training and dummy missiles, 30mm ammunition, transponders, simulators, global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, communication equipment, spare and repair parts; tools and test equipment, support equipment, repair and return support, personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to be provided in conjunction with a proposed direct commercial sale of 22 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters. The estimated cost is $1.4 billion.

[merlin]

If their is even an inkling of truth that the Air Chief said this then someone should drop a hint that India cannot afford AF if it persists with these outlandish demands.

and when are we going to get over this TOT fascination-never worked in the past and will never work in future. No shortcuts to hard work and perseverance.

Yes Sir, ever since I started reading BRF, I have always got this feeling that India cannot afford the Air Force. We need to shut it down.

Not a bad idea, once you said it and I thought about it. Transfer all aircraft to the IN and we are done.

[NRao]

25 billion isn't as much a big price as made out to be

On my cell, so cannot link a pdf. But Google "MMRCA 6-7 billion".

In 2005 the expectation for the MMRCA was $6-7 billion, with $30 billion for the entire expenditure over 5 years!!!!!

[Manish_Sharma]

DJ sahab, the apache deal is for 1.4 Billion and the remaining 1.1 Billion for Chinook and the deal including life time service/maintenance contracts as well as weapons. 22 choppers have a total cost of 64 million per bird and 15 chinooks have a cost of around 73 million per bird (expected since a much bigger chopper)
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/in ... elicopters

Now tell me Septimus ji, all this will provide jobs for americans. While in Rafale whatever conditions %age of ToT and manufacturing we asked for is included, we don't know what level of raw material to finished product manufacturing is going to be done here. Actually no one does aside from the fact that here 126 Rafales will be procured with their SPECTRAS, RADARS and other paraphernalia. Other than frenchmen, Bharatiya technicians, engineers will be employed and mfrg the product here on Bharatbhumi.

The thing is if we were buying 15 chinooks made in france for 1.1 billion dollars lot of muharram would have happened by some people here.

What I'm seeing is that every expensive C-17, chinook, m777 deal is made out here by some as a supercheap and perfect deal. The four-five posters are same who have to support each and every american deal and oppose other deals.

If I were to pose a question to these gentlemen about if SH was shortlisted would the price wouldn't have compounded the same way; I'll get no clear-cut answer, but a koan-ish riddlish go-figure-yourself-i'm-not-effing-here to teach you full of brackets and #s post.

The thing is BRF has been calling media DDM for some reason. The thing is no DM no officially MoD ever put a price, it was DDM price of 6 billion dollars. And if meen-mekh has to be done then it should have been done at the time when two extreme platforms lightest grippen of Tejas class and SH 30 ton of almost sukhoi class were called.

Of course if SH would've won the MMRCA these very gents would be educating me here at how Bharat is so lucky to get SH airframe, AESA radar, 2 GE 414 engines, plus the IRST hanging on fuel tank for a piddly 36 billion dollars.

Who was controling the media report or it was a bhed chaal that every 16-18 months it kept becoming 6 billion to 8 billion to 10 billion to todays 12 to 25 billion no one knows.

I can't believe that those with firm belief in data are taking DDM's figures which have ranged from 12 to 25 billion dollars in just last 15 days.

[Manish_Sharma]

25 billion isn't as much a big price as made out to be

On my cell, so cannot link a pdf. But Google "MMRCA 6-7 billion".

In 2005 the expectation for the MMRCA was $6-7 billion, with $30 billion for the entire expenditure over 5 years!!!!!

You're right I read the news first time with Super Hornet AESA Radar and 6 billion in Times of India 2005 myself. It had read "IAF pilots are drooling at SH AESA radar which for the first time in history of airwar has a radar which is capable of looking beyond the range of its missile...."

9 years after it is DDM (remember the term) that is throwing 12 to 25 billion dollars at will. Now if from 2010 to now 640 million it can become 900 million dollars for M777 and still acceptable to you, for sure some sort of price escalation is expected in mere 9 years !!!

15 Chinooks for 1.1 billion dollars, for goodness sake, now I know it includes the two sets of rotors and engines too!!!

[Ganesh_S]

I dont see any country apart from the USA who will be able to compete and support us in our competition with China over time.

its. only them who have the supply chain constantly upgrading itself .

and if we buy from them, it is likelier that we can influence them over time.

Russia and China are standing together now. its time to go slower on them.

So, after all those precious posts of yours supporting Indigenization, here you reveal your true colour. Yenna rascala

[abhik]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

"The president of the republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place," it said in a statement.

[Cosmo_R]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

"The president of the republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place," it said in a statement.

Anyone who still thinks French purchases are 'sanction proof' needs to rethink.

If The US puts enough pressure, the Frenchies will wilt.

[Manish_Sharma]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

"The president of the republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place," it said in a statement.

Anyone who still thinks French purchases are 'sanction proof' needs to rethink.

If The US puts enough pressure, the Frenchies will wilt.

Bias total bias, its very amusing to see what lengths people will go to coverup american crimes and do porki terrorist outfits (US) = RSS (France)

- Everything from falkland war to now russian sanction will be brought up to show that french are as bad as khan!

- WHAT IS OUR EXPERIENCE? america put sanctions on Bharat, even now LCA delay is lot due to that! Statesman Shri Jacques Chirac at that critical moment made a great statement "We understand Bharat's compulsions....", even russians had to do token criticism like "we didn't expect this from our friend Bharat..."

american koc#$uk*% were openly wounding Bharatvarsh, they didn't sanction china on '96 tests, but went after us.

Eff the sanctions against russia who cares? What matters is that French didn't sanction us, if we're to do tests again they won't I say this here, BUT AMRIKA WILL !!! Let amrikan ba$tards bring all the pressure they can on France but france won't wilt!

[Indranil]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

Anyone who still thinks French purchases are 'sanction proof' needs to rethink.
If The US puts enough pressure, the Frenchies will wilt.

I think this is an unfair comparison.

There is US pressure, but I am unsure of its weight on this decision. France has always been quite slimy in how it handles US/NATO pressure. But in this case, France cannot just pocket the money and not care about the consequences. This time both "warring' parties are European, the war is in Europe and the result affects EU and France considerably in all aspects. So, I think this is France's own decision which I don't dislike as at least they make their own decisions unlike the rest of NATO-countries. This incidentally ties in nicely into their sense of nationalism (JMT).

Anyways, I couldn't care less whether France sells the Mistrals to Russia or not. I would like to know if those under production will be up for sale at lower prices to alternate customers . But that is for another thread.

[JTull]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

Anyone who still thinks French purchases are 'sanction proof' needs to rethink.

If The US puts enough pressure, the Frenchies will wilt.

+1

But, instead of US pressure, we must look at it in the context of European compulsions. Russia is at their doorstep and all these countries have 70 years of bitter history.

[kmkraoind]

In other news news...
Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

"The president of the republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place," it said in a statement.

If true, where are mahasayas who are telling us that France military ware is sanction proof? In future, if we collude directly with NATO or US (remote possibility), then I bet France will also sanction us. Since already we have started importing huge armaments from US, go for F-35 or F-18, because known devil (US) is better than an unknown god (France). US ware and ammunition is far cheaper than French.

[Aditya_V]

25 billion isn't as much a big price as made out to be

On my cell, so cannot link a pdf. But Google "MMRCA 6-7 billion".

In 2005 the expectation for the MMRCA was $6-7 billion, with $30 billion for the entire expenditure over 5 years!!!!!

The IAF was looking at M-2000 with better Avionics, that would have been workable, by doing the entire MMRCA deal thingie, the powers that be have ensured IAF is weak as our enemies would like it to be.

[Philip]

From another td.

(Hitesh) France not agreeing to abide by the agreement in the first place probably damaged Dassault's chances of a getting a deal signed by GoI. MoD & GoI bought french weapons under the impression that France wouldn't bow down to int'l pressure and impose sanctions. That thinking just went out of the window.

The French surrendering to the Yanqui diktat ,as M'Hollande is in shock and awe of the White House,could not have come at a better time for the GOI/MOD.Spending more than twice as much on a 4++ gen aircraft when superior 5th-gen aircraft are on the cusp of entering service and the US plans its 6th-gen strike aircraft to have AI,would be an act of imbecility. The good CoAS might indeed demand a quick fix as the IAF is truly in sh*t street with declining numbers and capability,but supposing just for the sake of argument that the French and Euro-Peons do not deliver on the safeguards of supply as we're now seeing with the Mistrals for Russia,what then?

The MOD must demand that the IAF come up with Plan B/C/whatever in case Rafales and EFs are unaffordable.

The options are there."More of the same" at lower prices of either MKIs,MIG-29UG std.,accelerate the LCA development as well.There was some heartening news about this latter aspect as the media reported that the DCoAS flew the trainer version in BLR. This is with a view to the faster accomplishment of FOC of the MK-1 version. For MK-2,to also escape the sanctions regime,we must develop a version with the EJ engine as an alternative to the GE 414. If the IAF intends "ploughing its lonely furrow",Rafale or bust,it must be busted.The chief can then find the money out of his own pocket and that of his service!

[kmkraoind]

No doubt US sanctions in 1998 hurt us, but later there are many geopolitical alignments. If US really wants, it can put pressure on Israel, then LCA radar, A2A missiles and its avionics will become kaput. I not mentioning about LCA engine. I say go for SH, its best 4.5 bird there. Its avionics, radar and low observability profile is unmatched. No doubt, its not acrobatic bird, but we have plenty of acrobatic birds in the form of Mig29, SU-MKI and even PAKFA, so go a bomb truck.

If US agrees on these things, then go for SH:
1. Access to complete software code of radar.
2. Whole airframe to built in India (not like Russia where it send Titanium blocks and we just chisel). This time, it will be from metallic ore to finish up, everything will be built in India.
3. Ditto for GE 414 EPE engine, with rights to India to produce as many as it wishes and right to modifications.
4. A2G smart munitions to be build in India.

[member_20453]

I never said C-17s/C-130Js/ P-8Is or any other US deal as being inexpensive, the deals however include costs of service/weapons (in the case of Apaches) and maintenance over life time. The bigger and more complex the bird, the costlier it gets, do note even the A-330 tanker deal for 6 birds is worth well over a billion. Atleast with Unkil deals we are getting on time delievries and no issues in terms of after sales service. We have reliable birds that can operate in adervse conditions and some have already proven themselves in the Indian context.

I believe the 22 Ah-64 for the IAF would be very useful, they can be excellent air commanders for IAF's helo fleet, they would be able to guide IAF's helo assets to the battle and guard special packages closely, they would have great view of the ground and a can also provide advanced recon while controlling UAVs as well. Actually 64 million per bird with weapons and a life time of service/maintenance is a great deal for the Apache. IAF doesn't need more but IA can certainly order another 45 or 3 sqds, they can act as great threater commanders for IA's fleet of Rudras/LCHs etc.

My main issue with Rafale is not the aircraft itself rather its peddlers, Dassault is great at making good birds but they are even better at ***king up deals as proven in every single Raffy deal so far. Raffy is no doubt an expensive proposition, the cost over the first 10 year alone is being quoted upwards of 22 Billion, then there is an eventual MLU and costs over the next 30 years (which remain unknown). All in all the Raffy deal is a pricey one and will remain a pricey one for the rest of its service life. AF seems to be pushing for this deal to go through due to sheer delays and shortages and Govt. is trying hard to get the price down. If the SH cleared trials and was being offered at piggly 36 billion I for one would oppose it.

If EF's counter offer now is cheaper by over 20,000 crore as mentioned, SH can be far cheaper, it is proven to be a cheaper bird to acquire and operate over a life time. For 36 billion you would easily get 220 SHs with weapons and a local assembly line with a decent amount of TOT.

But the reality now is Dassault would really have to try hard to ***k it up I mean, all they really have to do it cut the price and the deal is theirs but then again its Dassault, no guarantees here. I would hate a smaller number of raffys, rather we might as well buy 200 of them and get it over with, it will be expensive over its life to operate but it would be a good aircraft. We should focus on integrating ARM, Astra mk-2, Sudarshan LGB/ GPS glide bombs, CBU-105SFW (we should order more of these), brahmos mini and nirbhay mini, Astra MK-1 with IR seeker? etc as soon as the first birds start arriving and save costs by only having local weapons on them.

[Yagnasri]

I do not see NM committing the kind of money required for Raff. Firstly he will demand to know what we are getting and if same things can not be obtained at a much cheaper rate elsewhere. Second even if he is ok for the first one then he will not be so willing to pay the huge amount required at this point when some sort of alternative in the form of Indian LCA Mk2 is available soon. He wish to make India a producer of defense equipment not its importer. He is also not likely to be easy to be persuaded by IAF Head. If IAF wish to press for it, better get all the justifications ready beforehand.

[member_20317]

My hunch is that Jet Li has been posted into the Defmin only to close the Rafale and a few other close deals. Legacy items, getting rid of which is important to be able to start focusing on new projects where your presence and effort can yield results.

In any case the time invested in testing the MMRCA and the 'need' and the sheer incapability in the present to have this kind of product available with this kind of promise will ensure that this deal goes through.

Though there is rationale in curtailing the numbers to limit costs. Increasing the numbers to cut costs is possible but will absolutely kill LCA for sure. The whole growth path of the IAF will likely change if increase in numbers is adopted.

..............

My uneducated wishlist (Plain vanilla deal) would be to bump up the direct imports to 60 and use some stocking to provide for difficult times and nothing to be made in India. No ToT, no options, nothing.

And to increase investments on LCA et al.

[Philip]

The way the world is going ,in the days of economic crisis.Why should poverty stricken India buy ONLY the equiv. of a Rolls or Bentley in the form of the Rafale?

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014090 ... s-take-off
3 September 2014
The low-cost fighters to serve tomorrow’s air forces
By Angus Batey

Fighter jets, like the Lockheed F-35, are becoming increasingly expensive. Is it possible to make something much cheaper? Angus Batey reports on a new breed of plane poised to take to the skies.

With the cost of modern warplanes spiralling, one US aircraft maker is going back to basics, with a plane designed to carry out combat roles at a fraction of the cost.

At this summer's Farnborough Air Show in England, the talk was dominated by the mishaps of one plane: the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter. Due to be adopted by major air forces in the decades to come, it was supposed to be the star of the show. But in the end, the $100m-a-unit jet failed to turn up to its coming-out party after an engine fire in one of the production models grounded the fleet.

But another new jet fighter, which had taken less than two years to design, build and fly, did make it to Farnborough. The Textron Scorpion costs $20m, still not exactly a bargain by most people's standards, but a fifth of the cost of the F-35. It suggests that not every advanced defence project has to necessarily come in years late and billions over budget – and points to a new twist in not only the future of fighter-jet design, but also in more humanitarian roles that a budget jet could carry out.

The Scorpion took only two years to go from concept to its first flight (Textron)

As Textron AirLand president Bill Anderson has said, the majority of work devoted to designing and developing fighters over the last several decades has focused on creating expensive, sophisticated machines. Whether it's Lockheed’s F-35 and F-22 Raptor, the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Boeing F/A-18, the designs have reflected the desire for advanced performance over affordability. Yet in today's economic environment, cost is becoming an unavoidably compelling issue for even the richest western nations.

Budget busters

Textron aren’t the only ones creating the tech to address this issue. The single jet fighter JF-17 is a Chinese design, currently being built in collaboration with its sole export customer, Pakistan, and is said to be available for around the same per-plane price of US$20m. Meanwhile, a Russian design, the Yak-130, has also been touted as a low-cost plane to carry out everything from air combat to reconnaissance, as well as train pilots.

There are three main classes of potential customers for planes like the Scorpion, which has a top speed of around 520mph. The first are air forces who want a small jet aircraft capable of carrying out a range of strike and intelligence-gathering missions, and who have either never flown combat jets before or are looking to replace older aircraft. The second are countries who already have, or are developing, high-end fighter forces, but who might buy fewer of the more expensive jets to obtain a larger number of cheaper aircraft. The third are the major military powers who will need the advanced jets for simpler missions in low-risk environments.

The Russian Yak-130 is being marketed as a light strike fighter as well as a training aircraft (AFP/Getty Images)

But how exactly do you make something as complex and technologically challenging as a fighter plane cheaper? Textron looked to its existing suppliers and used components that were already in production, rather than designing everything from scratch (the F-35, for example, uses an engine which was developed especially for the aircraft). The development team was deliberately kept very small, so Anderson and Scorpion chief designer, Dale Tutt, could make decisions quickly.

"Once we'd developed the initial design concept we set high-level design requirements for the team, and we didn't overburden them with a lot of detailed requirements," Tutt says. “We didn't have to invest time in developing, for example, a new engine or ejection seat. We were able to focus on putting those components together for the airplane and get it flying."

Patrol role

Textron also had the advantage of not having to meet the requirements of a specific nation or an air force. This meant that the development team could make changes to the design if they felt it would help the overall project.

"A great example is [British ejection-seat specialists] Martin Baker," says Anderson. "They sent a group of engineers over and they looked at our cockpit cup design, and they said, 'Well, our seat's not gonna work. It'll be several million dollars and 18 months for us to redesign it. But if you can give us about five more inches of volume - three in length and two in width – it will work.' So guess what we did? We made the cockpit tub a little bigger."

The Chinese JF-17 is a supersonic fighter plane with a price tag the same as the slower Scorpion (AFP/Getty Images)

The Scorpion followed its Farnborough appearance with a demonstration at an exercise in Textron's home state of Kansas, designed to simulate the aftermath of a natural disaster (a major tornado strike) on the region. The jet wasn't used in a fighter role: instead it supplied full-motion video surveillance footage to ground commanders, in a role much like the one carried out today by drones in Afghanistan. Textron wants to enter the Scorpion in the competition the US Air Force will run next year to buy 350 jet trainers to replace its obsolete fleet of T-38s, which have been serving since the 1960s. It also points to additional roles, such as border surveillance, humanitarian assistance and maritime patrol, as jobs the jet can also comfortably carry out.

"Even among the very wealthy countries we're speaking to, everyone is recognising we have to become more economical," Anderson stresses. "No doubt we need high-end fighters: but pilots need to fly, and we can't afford the airplanes we have and to fly the pilots enough to make them combat-sufficient. I think most countries recognise that you don't always need a high-end aircraft.”

[Cosmo_R]

^^^"Jet Li has been posted into the Defmin only to close the Rafale and a few other close deals. Legacy items, getting rid of which is important to be able to start focusing on new projects where your presence and effort can yield results."

AJ has been posted to both MoF and MoD because these two entities have been at loggerheads for umpteen years. The UPA always ensured underspending of the defense budget in each FY to fund the 'social programs' to reach vote banks.

AJ's job is to get MoF and MoD reading from the same page.

[Cosmo_R]

^^^"Bias total bias, its very amusing to see what lengths people will go to coverup american crimes"

Who exactly is doing the coverup and what are the lengths? Missed the point amidst the colorful language.

Nothing is sanction proof. Yeltsin gladly acquiesced on the cryogenic engines did he not?

[SaiK]

There are b@lls being held by others than India getting to drive things from buyer's market perspective. I don't think even France thinks this is something they won already and will expect some big bucks.

Time to rethink on big tickets... it is not late than tomorrow.

[srai]

The way the world is going ,in the days of economic crisis.Why should poverty stricken India buy ONLY the equiv. of a Rolls or Bentley in the form of the Rafale?

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014090 ... s-take-off
3 September 2014
The low-cost fighters to serve tomorrow’s air forces
By Angus Batey

Fighter jets, like the Lockheed F-35, are becoming increasingly expensive. Is it possible to make something much cheaper? Angus Batey reports on a new breed of plane poised to take to the skies.

With the cost of modern warplanes spiralling, one US aircraft maker is going back to basics, with a plane designed to carry out combat roles at a fraction of the cost.

At this summer's Farnborough Air Show in England, the talk was dominated by the mishaps of one plane: the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter. Due to be adopted by major air forces in the decades to come, it was supposed to be the star of the show. But in the end, the $100m-a-unit jet failed to turn up to its coming-out party after an engine fire in one of the production models grounded the fleet.

But another new jet fighter, which had taken less than two years to design, build and fly, did make it to Farnborough. The Textron Scorpion costs $20m, still not exactly a bargain by most people's standards, but a fifth of the cost of the F-35. It suggests that not every advanced defence project has to necessarily come in years late and billions over budget – and points to a new twist in not only the future of fighter-jet design, but also in more humanitarian roles that a budget jet could carry out.

The Scorpion took only two years to go from concept to its first flight (Textron)

As Textron AirLand president Bill Anderson has said, the majority of work devoted to designing and developing fighters over the last several decades has focused on creating expensive, sophisticated machines. Whether it's Lockheed’s F-35 and F-22 Raptor, the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Boeing F/A-18, the designs have reflected the desire for advanced performance over affordability. Yet in today's economic environment, cost is becoming an unavoidably compelling issue for even the richest western nations.

Budget busters

Textron aren’t the only ones creating the tech to address this issue. The single jet fighter JF-17 is a Chinese design, currently being built in collaboration with its sole export customer, Pakistan, and is said to be available for around the same per-plane price of US$20m. Meanwhile, a Russian design, the Yak-130, has also been touted as a low-cost plane to carry out everything from air combat to reconnaissance, as well as train pilots.

There are three main classes of potential customers for planes like the Scorpion, which has a top speed of around 520mph. The first are air forces who want a small jet aircraft capable of carrying out a range of strike and intelligence-gathering missions, and who have either never flown combat jets before or are looking to replace older aircraft. The second are countries who already have, or are developing, high-end fighter forces, but who might buy fewer of the more expensive jets to obtain a larger number of cheaper aircraft. The third are the major military powers who will need the advanced jets for simpler missions in low-risk environments.

The Russian Yak-130 is being marketed as a light strike fighter as well as a training aircraft (AFP/Getty Images)

But how exactly do you make something as complex and technologically challenging as a fighter plane cheaper? Textron looked to its existing suppliers and used components that were already in production, rather than designing everything from scratch (the F-35, for example, uses an engine which was developed especially for the aircraft). The development team was deliberately kept very small, so Anderson and Scorpion chief designer, Dale Tutt, could make decisions quickly.

"Once we'd developed the initial design concept we set high-level design requirements for the team, and we didn't overburden them with a lot of detailed requirements," Tutt says. “We didn't have to invest time in developing, for example, a new engine or ejection seat. We were able to focus on putting those components together for the airplane and get it flying."

Patrol role

Textron also had the advantage of not having to meet the requirements of a specific nation or an air force. This meant that the development team could make changes to the design if they felt it would help the overall project.

"A great example is [British ejection-seat specialists] Martin Baker," says Anderson. "They sent a group of engineers over and they looked at our cockpit cup design, and they said, 'Well, our seat's not gonna work. It'll be several million dollars and 18 months for us to redesign it. But if you can give us about five more inches of volume - three in length and two in width – it will work.' So guess what we did? We made the cockpit tub a little bigger."

The Chinese JF-17 is a supersonic fighter plane with a price tag the same as the slower Scorpion (AFP/Getty Images)

The Scorpion followed its Farnborough appearance with a demonstration at an exercise in Textron's home state of Kansas, designed to simulate the aftermath of a natural disaster (a major tornado strike) on the region. The jet wasn't used in a fighter role: instead it supplied full-motion video surveillance footage to ground commanders, in a role much like the one carried out today by drones in Afghanistan. Textron wants to enter the Scorpion in the competition the US Air Force will run next year to buy 350 jet trainers to replace its obsolete fleet of T-38s, which have been serving since the 1960s. It also points to additional roles, such as border surveillance, humanitarian assistance and maritime patrol, as jobs the jet can also comfortably carry out.

"Even among the very wealthy countries we're speaking to, everyone is recognising we have to become more economical," Anderson stresses. "No doubt we need high-end fighters: but pilots need to fly, and we can't afford the airplanes we have and to fly the pilots enough to make them combat-sufficient. I think most countries recognise that you don't always need a high-end aircraft.”

LCA Mk.1/2, a 4+ Gen multi-role combat aircraft, @ just $26-30 million should do well against competition like the Scorpion. Or even combat variant of IJT-36 or HTT-40 @ $8-15 million would be competitive. But India needs to learn how to sell its products.

[ramana]

Philip, The speed with which France reneged on the Mistral ships to Russia about to be delivered makes them a suspect supplier for such a long term project as the Rafale. Cant trust the philandering French!

[Karan M]

France is under russian nuke threat too the comparison to indo france relations is completely off.

[NRao]

France is under russian nuke threat too the comparison to indo france relations is completely off.

Besides that the rough comparison to the Indian situation would be if India decided to invade someone. Would France behave similarly? Testing nukes is a totally diff level of the game.