Discussion on Indian Special Forces

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 11 Sep 2014 15:16

Garuds in action..!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Sep 2014 02:07

Cant ARDE develop new ammo for the MP-5 to penetrate BPJs and the like? Would be a waste to ditch the proven MP-5 just because of its ammo.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Sep 2014 09:32

Cant ARDE develop new ammo for the MP-5 to penetrate BPJs and the like? Would be a waste to ditch the proven MP-5 just because of its ammo.

MP-5/10s were manufactured for USJSOC units for a while chambered to 10mm ammo. These guns eventually transitioned tot he .45 UMP
(SOCCOM has moved even their side arms to .45 calibre)

There is also a MP-5/40 chambered for .40 ammo (done by S&W)

I remember reading somewhere that the UMP and MP-7 are actually cheaper to manufacture than the MP-5 and that was one of the key reasons HK started to push the new SMGs

@karan ji although informative , the thread have been hijacked !
after ITBP may be NSG will complain of fighting naxals. COBRA too have the mandate of hostage rescue . why NSG ? NSG is elite and it should not be diluted.

IMO Cobra maybe less effective than previously imagined. Other than posting pics of fancy gear on FB their ops have met with limited levels of success. Somebody on another fora stated that his mates in COBRA are not allowed to their their TAVORs, etc out of camp because the higher ups are scared the expensive gear will get damaged. dont know how true that is ofcourse.

Also NSG maybe involved in taking out HVTs wih extremely credible intel or be used as fast moving chase teams.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 09:34

^^ is that last line a wish or a statement of chaiwalla fact.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 09:54

afair, delta force started out as a HRT unit for american locations and citizens overseas (as by law mil cannot act inside and FBI HRT/SWAT does that)
but due to a lack of opportunity, they changed their orientation and are a full fledged military SF unit now while perhaps retaining some HRT training.
prior to delta the army green berets had some kind of QRT based in germany for the role as planes were getting hijacked right and left in europe and middle east in 70s.

with namo in charge, its high time and muscular indic SOCOM be funded with tri-services rotating command and staffed and equipped appropriately. some the shiny new chinooks and LCHs can be given, as also priority claims of C130J as needed. perhaps one base in Vizag, one in Chakrata, one in Mizoram and one in Karwar-Belgaum for peacetime training.

the army parachute regiments can either be part of SOCOM or outside , probably outside is best.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Sep 2014 11:07

^^ is that last line a wish or a statement of chaiwalla fact.

Sirji its a wish..Because if its not and the NSG is duplicating what CoBRA should be doing then we have wasted a bucket load of money and men on CoBRA.

with namo in charge, its high time and muscular indic SOCOM be funded with tri-services rotating command and staffed and equipped appropriately. some the shiny new chinooks and LCHs can be given, as also priority claims of C130J as needed. perhaps one base in Vizag, one in Chakrata, one in Mizoram and one in Karwar-Belgaum for peacetime training.

The SAS can commandeer a BA flight as and when they choose incase of any emergency and with minimal warning. Its high time we instituted such a relationship with Indian Airlines (Public/pvt)....

DELTA outside of being HRT was also a Deniable CT unit to do offensive operations in deniable territory against terrorist threats. Their first operation being the Iran Fiasco.

AFAIK their operations in Somalia (1992) and Iraq and Astan for the most part fit the bill. Conventional SOF duties went to MARSOC, Force Recon, Line SEALs, Special Forces and the like. ST6 and Delta's primary mission was taking out terror cells, leaders / infrastructure, etc

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Sep 2014 11:24

rkhanna wrote:
Cant ARDE develop new ammo for the MP-5 to penetrate BPJs and the like? Would be a waste to ditch the proven MP-5 just because of its ammo.
MP-5/10s were manufactured for USJSOC units for a while chambered to 10mm ammo. These guns eventually transitioned tot he .45 UMP
(SOCCOM has moved even their side arms to .45 calibre)

I meant
Not rechambered guns but 9 mm ammo itself...steel cored..with a fragmentation component...something like that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 11:27

>> Its high time we instituted such a relationship with Indian Airlines (Public/pvt)....

this has been done post the mumbai episode for all our airlines not just IA. no more need to wait for a IL76 or C130. there will be planes flight ready at the major metros even at dead of night as they are parked overnight after the last landing around 10-11pm and cleaned/checked.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Sep 2014 11:29

Singha wrote:>> Its high time we instituted such a relationship with Indian Airlines (Public/pvt)....

this has been done post the mumbai episode for all our airlines not just IA. no more need to wait for a IL76 or C130.

Delhi IGI Airport nowadays have 2 x IL-76 permanently parked in the ARC area. Not to mention that there is DET from NSG also at the airport for quick response.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 11:36

not really needed imo as delhi and mumbai have highest number of flights in between them something like 50 a day....and NSG travels with maybe trunks of light gear not big palletized shakinaw kit like 105mm ULG on land rovers

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Sep 2014 15:38

Coming back to body armour and to service the made in India lobby..

http://www.mku.com/BalisticOvervest.aspx

These guys make a range of Protection gear and looking at their helmet offerings wouldnt take them much to come up with a FAST type modular helmet. if their Kevlar technology is good then coming up with a design mold is hardly an issue.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2014 17:17

there is one more player - tata group
http://www.tamlindia.com/personal-armor.htm

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 01:15

Last i checked, MKU imported their kevlar..

The LOC vid shows TWIRs, hand held UAVs with IA...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 03:09

Truly an ack thoo on MMS and the entire INC gang

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... less-india

+++

It was the third week of August 2013. The myths around Bhatkal did not dampen the team’s confidence. The plan was in place. The five of them would leave for Nepal in a Mahindra Bolero posing as tourists. There was only one constraint: money. As a junior official, the team leader earned only a modest salary. “Almost 30 per cent of our salaries is spent on operations. We don’t get paid enough. We have meagre savings. If we still persist with enthusiasm in our assignments, it is primarily because many of us are passionate about our work. We move out of our comfort zone often in the line of duty,” in the words of an SOG officer.

The team leader obtained a Rs 40,000 loan from a friend to buy Nepali SIM cards and cover the other expenses of the team. By 2 pm on 20 August, they reached Motihari and sought out SP Vinay Kumar. They filled him in with the broad plan without mentioning specifics, and found him keen to join their mission. This suited the unit perfectly well. The SP arranged two more vehicles for the men to use. Later that day, the group left for Pokhra—a 280 km journey—from Birganj, just a few kilometres across the border from Raxaul.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Sep 2014 09:48

^^^ For some people like the UPA II team, everything was politics and personal gain. Had it not been for the man on the street our nation would have collapsed. Here's a big cheers to people like above who constantly donate 30% of their salaries in keeping us safe.

An unsaid story above was the strange role of Bihar Govt and the Bihar DGP after Bhatkal's arrest. It absolutely defies logic and reason. So desperate were these people to please vote banks.

And then we cringe in recognising and rewarding them? Which member on that team had not risked their entire career on that Ops? Which member did not risk jail terms in Nepal? And how many were recognised? Will it be corrected now?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 13:23

deejay wrote:^^^ For some people like the UPA II team, everything was politics and personal gain. Had it not been for the man on the street our nation would have collapsed. Here's a big cheers to people like above who constantly donate 30% of their salaries in keeping us safe.

Its always been the case thanks to the great GOI and INC which ran this country. Doctors I know used their salary as Govt doctor to buy medicines for poor patients since the Govt compounder, was always short of medicines.

An unsaid story above was the strange role of Bihar Govt and the Bihar DGP after Bhatkal's arrest. It absolutely defies logic and reason. So desperate were these people to please vote banks.

And then we cringe in recognising and rewarding them? Which member on that team had not risked their entire career on that Ops? Which member did not risk jail terms in Nepal? And how many were recognised? Will it be corrected now?

Votebank politics and the misguided "benevolence" of the Gandhi/Nehru-Gandhi group towards minority extremism is what led us to this path.

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 13 Sep 2014 13:31

This is a little off topic but there has there been any news of arms being recovered by the Army as a result of the flood? Or any terrorist captured or hideouts busted?

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 13 Sep 2014 14:07

Karan M wrote:Votebank politics and the misguided "benevolence" of the Gandhi/Nehru-Gandhi group towards minority extremism is what led us to this path.

+100

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Sep 2014 15:51

Karan M wrote:Truly an ack thoo on MMS and the entire INC gang

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... less-india <SNIP>

Karan - the way I see it, slowly but surely, the dirt about UPA and MMS and SG are coming out in public.

I don't think this article happened by chance; this was facilitated by someone to tell Indians the true story of the rot that had set in during UPA-1 and UPA-2 and but for few brave patriots, this country would've gone completely to dogs.

I like the fact that article mentions effect of witch hunting on IB Officers after Ishrat ' Bihar ki Beti' Jahan case and dubious role of NIA. Ramana has been saying from Day 1 that NIA was set-up by Chidambaram to replicate CBI in the anti-terrorism domain - basically, use it to further the devious policies of CONGgress party.

Awaiting more such revelations to come forth.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Sep 2014 16:12

RV - its depressing. But I hope more and more of this stuff comes out so that the average Indian person realizes to what depth our national structure was compromised by these people over the past decade.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 Sep 2014 05:28

Is there anyway the anti-national elements within government are charged with treason and given death penalty? How long we will continue with these anti-national elements within our government.
Kudos to the Indians who do selfless service to the motherland. Proud to be an Indian. Jai Hind.

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 14 Sep 2014 10:30

There has been a lot of discussions on not using NSG, Garud for regular CT activities. My question is that a situation like say Mumbai hostage happens rarely (thankfully). How do we keep teams like NSG ready? Training is one part, but nothing like live action. Could they be inducted in Kashmir for short periods, say 6 months, before being sent back to their parent establishments?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 14 Sep 2014 12:28

rajatmisra wrote:There has been a lot of discussions on not using NSG, Garud for regular CT activities. My question is that a situation like say Mumbai hostage happens rarely (thankfully). How do we keep teams like NSG ready? Training is one part, but nothing like live action. Could they be inducted in Kashmir for short periods, say 6 months, before being sent back to their parent establishments?

I do remember reading here about an injured NSG guy who said that they have been involved in over 100 operations in J&K. Can't seem to find it though.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 16 Sep 2014 08:16

Read in full.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/shouted-for-azad-kashmir-and-laughed-at-it-later/

On the night of September 12, responding to an SOS, a team of five Army personnel led by an officer launched a relief operation at Srinagar’s Lal Chowk, a separatist stronghold. Carrying out rescue work in the area needed recce and more importantly concealment of identity.

Dressed in civvies, the team began its operation at 2 am and worked till late in the evening on September 13. During the day-long exercise, the personnel witnessed firing at Army boats trying to ferry out stranded people to dry areas, and raised slogans of “Azad Kashmir” to maintain their cover even as they laughed at the rumours that Pakistan had sent 80 helicopters to help rescue operations.

“On the night of September 12, we received an SOS for two people. By 2 am, we were on our way. Knowing that it is a notorious area, we decided to conceal our identities. Dressed in civvies, we went in a Sumo vehicle. After crossing Gupkar, we realised that the vehicle could not go further. We did not have life jackets… and decided to swim… we waded through 800 metres,” said an Armyman involved in the operation.

At one point, the group found an abandoned wooden boat with no oars. Rowing the boat with their hands, the group reached Exchange Road adjacent to Lal Chowk at around 5 am. “There were four women and they did not have food or water. We had to ask our operation commander to send air support. We needed to be stationed at a height to receive the air support, and thus got on to one Dena Bank building,” the official said.

Considering the difficulty that the incoming helicopters might have in locating the team from amongst several others atop the houses, the group told their commander that they would “remove their shirts and stand in two groups — a few feet from each other — waving black clothes”.

“We sent the supplies, including some specific medicines. And with the peculiar arrangement that our men created on the top of the building, the helicopter located them easily,” said the operation commander. One of the flood-victims provided relief was an 84-year-old Kashmiri Pandit woman who was being looked after by a Muslim family.

After distributing the air-dropped aid, the group started rowing the wooden boat to return to its base. “At this time, two Army boats on routine rescue mission entered from south and were fired upon. We told the boats to retract and disengage. To row away from the scene, we navigated to a muhalla. Three Hurriyat men got onto our boat… they told us that Pakistan had sent a help of 80 rescue helicopters, which India denied.We went to a mosque. I told the maulavi to pray that the water recedes soon and peace prevails.The maulavi said that the tragedy has brought people of Kashmir together and prayed for Azad Kashmir… to remain under cover, we too shouted for Azad Kashmir.We all laughed at this later… (but) at that time, we were one amongst them,” said a member of the Army team.

I am guessing these chaps are from MARCOS.

"Kashmiries should roll their Kashmiriat and shove it up each others ass****"

member_28539 · Post by **member_28539** » 16 Sep 2014 16:02

Is it good to expect that a lot of hidden stuff in those dingy KM homes will now be in open? I mean a good intelligence gathering opportunity for our boys..right?

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Sep 2014 16:11

^^ Most of the weapons dumps all over the valley must have been washed away and most of the earlier no-go areas would have been well mapped out by now!

So, a blessing of sort ( though tragic for the common folks) for SDREs and their agencies,i guess

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Sep 2014 16:27

SagarAg wrote:Read in full.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/shouted-for-azad-kashmir-and-laughed-at-it-later/
The maulavi said that the tragedy has brought people of Kashmir together and prayed for Azad Kashmir… to remain under cover, we too shouted for Azad Kashmir.We all laughed at this later… (but) at that time, we were one amongst them,” said a member of the Army team.
I am guessing these chaps are from MARCOS.
"Kashmiries should roll their Kashmiriat and shove it up each others ass****"

Nice psyops to broadcast this. Now they won't know if they can trust whoever is shouting for "Azad kashmir"

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Sep 2014 20:12

All of India should shout Azad Kashmir. Then make it India Kashmir! That will be a great goal

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Sep 2014 11:37

svinayak wrote:All of India should shout Azad Kashmir. Then make it India Kashmir! That will be a great goal

Stop trolling

I said these men (MARCOs or Paras) went undercover and into danger and by publishing an account (which is probably a deliberate leak), sow confusion in terrorist ranks.

Looks like you have a comprehension or an attitude problem.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2014 12:30

IBNLIVE

Gurgaon: Home Minister Rajnath Singh on Tuesday inaugurated the Diving Training Tank, developed to train commandos in underwater operations, at the NSG camp here, an official said.

Rajnath Singh visited the National Security Guard (NSG) camp, Manesar for the first time after becoming Home Minister.

After paying homage to the NSG martyrs by laying a wreath at the Martyrs' Memorial, he was briefed on the various aspects and issues pertaining to the force by Director General JN Choudhury and other senior officers

The minister addressed the senior officers and assured them that he would look into the issues raised by them.
He also saw a demonstration of various skills by the NSG commandos.
While addressing a gathering of approximately 800 commandos, Rajnath Singh complimented the NSG for the role that it has played as the elite federal counter-terrorist force of the nation.

Before leaving, he said: "Visiting NSG gave me an opportunity to meet officers and jawans and also see demonstration of their skills. I am thrilled. NSG as an organisation instils a sense of security and confidence in the minds of the countrymen. We are proud of this organisation. I wish the force all the very best."

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 17 Sep 2014 13:29

Special forces photos will not be published in any other nation. But I guess too much to expect such sense in our prestitutes.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 18 Sep 2014 12:13

Gurus why is there a difference in uniform and the insignia on beret of the last person...he looks ripped and mean.!!!

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 18 Sep 2014 12:47

^^^^^
That guy is an officer, others are Airmen of the IAF Garud commando force.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Today ... aruds.html

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 22 Sep 2014 01:57

A RajyaSabha TV report on NSG with shooting from NSG's Manesar center. Good watch..could have been better... They also talked about Phantom Commandos ...anybody head about them earlier?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nb4BjW1ZA4

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 24 Sep 2014 20:36

Attaching a link to a very well written article on the composition, ethos and operational aspects of Rashtriya Rifles by Gen Syed Ata Hasnain.

This is something you can add to a curated Must Read List for CI/CT.

member_28703 · Post by **member_28703** » 24 Sep 2014 23:07

^^^^^
Good catch ravip

First time i'm noticing 2 gps sets in a single squad.
(second and third sgts from the right)

These ones are the Garmin 62S.
Pretty much top of the line that one can get in India off the shelf.
gr8 antenna/water proof/can share waypoints/data wirelessly with other 62s's.

Good to see them get quality gear..but looking forward to the day we get our own constellation and dedicated sets for the forces.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 25 Sep 2014 10:20

One thing about GARDUS is that they are more media frenzy....showing all toys and they say their clearance course is the toughest one with 52 weeks or something....IAF top brass has certainly taken the non co-operation wid the army to some next level, not that i am ranting but it's just an observation...but they have surely invested time and money for this force with top of the line equipment...but in d above pics the non-commissioned persons have tummy....and again i am making myself clear that i respect forces however they are and not ranting...its just that this evil indoo eyes always wants something to see soothing, mean, ripped....

member_28703 · Post by **member_28703** » 25 Sep 2014 21:48

regarding the clearance course being the toughest ect..i'm not the right person to talk abt it.

But its often said of Tier 1 SF's that getting IN is the easiest part. Its a screening process for the force to see if the chap has wht it takes to last in the force.There are regular tests of performance/endurance that the chap has to clear for a continued stay in the SF.Any time he fails, he's out of active service until he get back to the std.

Most people think that oh..force X has the most extreme/toughest entry course so it has to be the toughest SF.
Nothing can be farther from the truth.

Its just a fraction of the story.
The different training modules after induction(and how realistic they are).
The freedom given to the team members to THINK/PLAN on their own and learn from their mistakes.
The eqpt and resources given and their ability to use them effectively.
Soft skills..eg.languages
and a host of other factors like morale determine how good a force is.

The initial course just makes sure the force is getting chaps in peak physical/mental health.
Force X with the toughest entry course can still get it wrong if it does not address other issues.

Would be nice if someone has any idea abt the attrition rates in various SF's AFTER making the grade.
Not considering guys moving out due to age/injuries ect.
(if at all we follow the same idea of GET THEM AT THEIR PEAK AND KEEP THEM AT THEIR PEAK)

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Sep 2014 22:48

But its often said of Tier 1 SF's that getting IN is the easiest part.

A question. In India what constitutes Tier I? We know how the Americans/Brits define it. How do we - Is it Training / tasking ? Do we even have a concept of Tier I as mostly i just see specialized commando units. From little i know and few people i have spoken to SG maybe the only real "Tier I" we have.

member_28703 · Post by **member_28703** » 26 Sep 2014 22:17

^^^

SG maybe the only real "Tier I" we have.

I agree with you , though in India AFAIK we have no system of Tiers.
Based on the sheer numbers/size of our special forces it highly unlikely that all of them can be considered Tier 1.
Maybe some special units within Marcos,Garuds ect may be considered.

Not to get the whole thread back in a loop but i'm of the opinion that the recent rapid expansion of our SF units is against the very core concepts of SF.
The sooner we come up with our own Special Forces doctrine that is tailor made for our needs , the better.But integrating all SF under one dedicated 3/4star Gen is the way to go.The way things are heading in the world at large and the increasing role played by smaller specialized mil teams i think the SF umbrella org should be headed by a 4 star officer with a dedicated HQ/Budget/direct access to the political chain of command.