LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 17 Sep 2014 09:26

Will the LCH be able to use the longbow, to guide the Helina. Or for that matter will the AH 64 be able to share that information with the LCH.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rkhanna » 17 Sep 2014 12:09

Why would the army be interested in an armed variant of Dhruv when LCH was available?
Both are having similar MTOW and weapons. Even the EW suite seems to be the same.


Because an Armed Transport and a Attached Helo are an apples and oranges comparison.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 17 Sep 2014 16:50

^^^^ why ppl forget that LCH is still not available. The best way for IA to get some serious air fire power was and still is rudra. well , apple and oranges being different still are fruits !

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_20453 » 17 Sep 2014 17:52

All this discussion is a waste of time, the deal for the Apache is already clear, it will be acquired first for the IAF 22 and probably another 39+ for IA. They clearly seem to have plans on using them for their needs. Question remains how will they use them.

People forget that the Apache datalink that needs to work with Indian UAVs needs integration work and none of this capability is off the shelf but offcourse all these possibilties exist and will be exploited just like the P-8I had plenty of Indian components, it is not difficult for the Longbow's datalink to be programmed to work with Rustom/Seachers Mk1/2 & Heron's datalinks. I am pretty sure, the Indian Apache's will end up having a lot of the key tech from P-8I i.e Data Link 2, Speech Secrecy, IFF Interrogator/transponder, Satcom, perhaps Fingerprinting etc.

Furhtermore, The Apache Block 3 in the Indian context will only make the LCH/ Rudra that much more effective.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 17 Sep 2014 19:40

^^^^ as far as data link is concerned , data link II is for IN , can some one tell what type of link system it is. our UAVs will be getting BEL manufactured C band LOS and sat base link system.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 19 Sep 2014 00:02

Dennis wrote:Are these Rudras?
Rudras should have the EO ball above the nose and weapons
I think they might be Dhruv MkIIIs.
These are not Rudras which are primarily the ALH (WSI) meant for the Indian Army's AAC, the bird in the picture is an IAF bird (see the colors and the name).

These are probably from a set of birds IAF inducted for a Surveillance SQ. Anyway, this is probably one of the very few in this cofiguration.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 19 Sep 2014 00:10

koti wrote:Why would the army be interested in an armed variant of Dhruv when LCH was available?
Both are having similar MTOW and weapons. Even the EW suite seems to be the same.

Koti, LCH is not available then (or even now)... on the other hand Druv was, they realized that one can get a quickfire solution with the DRUV WSI and hence was born the Rudra.

One update on the Rudra: IA has ordered 60, utmost 20 could be in IA's hand by mid 2014 (first 2 were handed over in AI2013), the IAF has ordered 16 (1 SQ) and the Navy and Coast Guard have ordered 16 each. It looks like the latest order cleared by Jet-Li for IN and ICGS was for the Rudra and not the Druv.

IN and ICGs are planning to use it for coastal surveillance.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 19 Sep 2014 05:50

^Thanks.

On a side note, Naval Dhruv was considered inferior because it was not float capable like Seaking and the like. Is it now?
I don't think cheetak is too but none the less.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 21 Sep 2014 00:12

When we now want to build the naval MR med. helos in India,with no foreign purchases,why is this policy not being followed for the attack helos? Why is the US being stroked over the attack helos when we already have an Indian alternative unveiled and in the air? The number of attack helos ultimately will be around the same number of naval ASW/MR helos.What's the difference between the two acquisitions?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2014 03:32

koti wrote:On a side note, Naval Dhruv was considered inferior because it was not float capable like Seaking and the like. Is it now?
I don't think cheetak is too but none the less.

Yes it does (from GKN aerospace).
Image

LUH will also have this capability. There was a tender this June regarding the same. The arrangement was pretty much the same as Dhruv.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 21 Sep 2014 07:38

^^^ indranil sir, the floatation gear remains in inflated condition or is there an inflation mechanism?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2014 08:42

No sir/ji please. Indranil, Nil, Indra, Inder, all are fine.

There is a mechanism to deploy. They are are stowed away in containers attached to the skids during flight. However, the helicopter is certified to fly and land in the case of inadvertent deployment.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 21 Sep 2014 13:16

^^^ And any safe float duration certified?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 21 Sep 2014 16:46

^That's good news.
But I was thinking all Naval Dhruvs have tire based retractable landing gear instead of skids. Is this applicable for them too?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2014 19:00

If the innards of WSI-Dhruv visible in the picture below are anything to go by, the chopper will have limited troops carrying capacity. Further, we also need to factor in the residual payload capacity after it has been armed to teeth with full compliment of weapon systems.

One good thing about whatever residual payload the chopper can carry is that it can move elements of it's support team organically to forward operating bases. Not only men but material as well.

http://356007295890291112.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/3/5/18358769/7251916_orig.jpg

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2014 21:52

deejay wrote:^^^ And any safe float duration certified?

This is the requirement from LUH. I am pretty sure this is the same from ALH as well.
Helicopter shall remain upright & afloat in Sea State 6, and for at least 5 minutes in Sea State 5 with all Float Compartments intact, 30 minutes under Sea State 4 with all Float Compartments intact and for at least 30 minutes in Sea State 2 condition even with one compartment of Float damaged.


koti wrote:^That's good news.
But I was thinking all Naval Dhruvs have tire based retractable landing gear instead of skids. Is this applicable for them too?

Yes. Also, ADRDE is trying to indegenize this system for some time now. This was its status in 2010 (source)
ADRDE is at present involved in the design and development of emergency floatation system of ALH. The emergency floats are required to be deployed by helicopter during ditching. The float system has been developed. The electrical activation system has been designed, developed, and tested as per MIL specificat-ions. The pneumatic system and the polycarbonate float pack covers are under development

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 23 Sep 2014 11:39

rohitvats wrote:If the innards of WSI-Dhruv visible in the picture below are anything to go by, the chopper will have limited troops carrying capacity... One good thing about whatever residual payload the chopper can carry is that it can move elements of it's support team organically..
Rohit there is another picture in the same location shot during AI2013. it shows very limited space in the cabin... most likely for stores... but it is also possible for a soldier with a door mounted MMG to fire from there..
see link here at http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-drElz9-HMWI/URIxLlmedQI/AAAAAAAAS3o/nHAeUvRTtCU/s1600/DSC08289-733758.JPG

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby chiru » 24 Sep 2014 18:22

^^ saar, i think the photo shows that there are lots of data gathering equipment in the cabin. In the production version the entire WSI system will be controlled by the two pilots upfront and the whole rear cabin will be empty.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 24 Sep 2014 19:01

I think so too. There are several retractable seats inside.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 25 Sep 2014 12:24

chiru wrote:^^ saar, i think the photo shows that there are lots of data gathering equipment in the cabin. In the production version the entire WSI system will be controlled by the two pilots upfront and the whole rear cabin will be empty.
I don't think the whole rear cabin will be empty... see all those Green colored boxes, I don't think these boxes are going to be removed later.
Also the model shown in AI-2013, is a production model being handed over to the Army. not some prototype to have data gathering equipment (by which you mean telemetry equipment).

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 25 Sep 2014 14:17

^^^ It may be possible to remove the external hard points and guns fitted thus use the space.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby jamwal » 25 Sep 2014 14:49

It'll still need space for ammunition. A lot of those boxes are ammunition boxes.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 26 Sep 2014 01:18

deejay wrote:^^^ It may be possible to remove the external hard points and guns fitted thus use the space.
Even if you remove all external stores (which BTB are slung on stubs), how will it increase space??? Based on open source pictures of Rudra available, there is very limited space available in the cabin. as Jamwal said above, Ammo and other gear uses up most of the available space, lets not forget the additional sensors and their associated processing equipment Rudra carries in comparison to ALH Mark III.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby brar_w » 26 Sep 2014 01:46

koti wrote:True but not entirely.
Only a subset(12?) of the 22 on order will have Longbow.


No one including the US Army operate or plan to operate their entire fleet with the longbow radar. The networking capability in the standard Delta and the increased networking capability of the current Echo allow for a few apaches with the LB Radar to work alongside other non LB Apaches and execute missions. No need to have a radar on all of them. In fact the US Army with the Block 2 Deltas took off the long bow radar on their apaches in afghanistan because they did not require as many with the radar.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby koti » 26 Sep 2014 03:00

Agreed.
My response was to a suggestion that this acquisition is centered around the LongBows to be used as eyes to LCHs.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby darshand » 26 Sep 2014 12:51

brar_w wrote:No one including the US Army operate or plan to operate their entire fleet with the longbow radar.


The UK did buy their entire fleet equipped with longbow radars. Though all other operators I know of have only a subset of their fleet equipped with the radar as you said.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby deejay » 26 Sep 2014 13:01

Shrinivasan wrote:
deejay wrote:^^^ It may be possible to remove the external hard points and guns fitted thus use the space.
Even if you remove all external stores (which BTB are slung on stubs), how will it increase space??? Based on open source pictures of Rudra available, there is very limited space available in the cabin. as Jamwal said above, Ammo and other gear uses up most of the available space, lets not forget the additional sensors and their associated processing equipment Rudra carries in comparison to ALH Mark III.


Sir, If the external points and guns are removed, you will carry ammo for what?

The pods, FLIR cameras and other fittings in the nose and tail sections will not be occupying cabin space, though they may impose weight penalties.

Anyways, I am trying for conformation from horses mouth rather than speculation.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Ranjani Brow » 26 Sep 2014 13:05

Any news on LCH prototype-3 ? :|

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 26 Sep 2014 13:31

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 76015.html

India likely to pick S-70B Sea Hawk helicopters during Modi's US visit
Washington: As Prime Minister Narendra Modi begins his high-profile US visit on Friday, a news report says that India is expected to choose Sikorsky Aircraft's S-70B Sea Hawk helicopters for a 16-aircraft tender worth over USD 1 billion.

The Sikorsky deal would be one of several large US arms purchases by India that are nearing completion - including over USD 2.5 billion in orders for Boeing Co's AH-64D Apache and CH-47 Chinook helicopters.

The Obama administration is expected top push hard for the sale of M-777 ultra-light howitzers and Javelin anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby merlin » 26 Sep 2014 16:48

I thought that all 16 and the follow on taking the total to 91 odd were to be built in India. Or was it buy and make in India which means that they get built in India under ToT and as usual we get no benefit from it other than learning how the American's use screwdrivers?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby member_22605 » 26 Sep 2014 17:02

I thoroughly support the govt's push towards manufacturing but making a foreign heli in India doesn't do much to the indigenous capability, I feel we are capable but we need a challenge and a tough one at that which would call for a fully Indian design much like how the Soviets operated that would really give us the capability and independence.
Last edited by member_22605 on 26 Sep 2014 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 26 Sep 2014 17:03

further details on the deal

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/09/2 ... FK20140925

Exclusive - India eyes Sikorsky helicopter, other big U.S. arms buys
Those deals could in turn lay the groundwork for a much larger order of 123 helicopters for the Indian Navy, said one of the sources, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

...
Rahul Madhavan, senior manager for aerospace and defense at the U.S.-India Business Council lobby group, said the Modi government appeared to be embracing the Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), which aims to increase collaboration on 17 specific defense projects.

"The Indian administration is taking this DTTI initiative forward and it is no longer perceived as just being a U.S. centered type of affair, or a one-way street," he said. "The win-win situation is now more apparent for both sides."

...
An Indian official said the Javelin deal fit with Modi's "Make in India" strategy, but New Delhi remained concerned that Washington was not offering the latest version of the missile.

Speculation on my part:

1. Tradeoff between having indigenous stuff vs long pending force requirement impacting operational capabilities of the forces. So split between domestic and foreign stuff to manage both the declining op capability and the domestic defense industry.
2. May be the whole package will be contingent to getting one manufacturing line, as part of 51/49 India/US JV, to relocate completely to India. All sub-systems to be farmed out to local Indian vendors. Would that protect our investment and operational preparedness at all times?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2014 18:05

In the short to medium term I see no option other than to keep importing big ticket items like those helos.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby uddu » 26 Sep 2014 18:48

These could well be propaganda articles. Lobbies putting them out.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Multatuli » 26 Sep 2014 19:10

uddu wrote:

These could well be propaganda articles. Lobbies putting them out.


That could well be the case, as GoI gave no indication of such a deal.

Anyways, as other posters already said: the India Navy has no option left but to quickly order 40 or so helicopters like the Sea Hawk to equip the new ships and to replace some of the Sea King helicopters on the destroyers and frigates.

I hope that GoI negotiates for a production line of the Sea Hawk in India as a compensation, since the IN has a requirement for 140+ of these helicopters and for the Apache Longbows India will acquire (22 + more for the Indian army).

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby KrishnaK » 26 Sep 2014 21:43

raghuk wrote:I thoroughly support the govt's push towards manufacturing but making a foreign heli in India doesn't do much to the indigenous capability, I feel we are capable but we need a challenge and a tough one at that which would call for a fully Indian design much like how the Soviets operated that would really give us the capability and independence.
The Soviets had independence because they had their own oil and were not dependent on trade with anybody else. I suggest we go back to having zero trade so we get halfway on the path to soviet style independence.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Sep 2014 23:02

i think the key point is if modi-obama will see common intersection of interest expand, and thrash back stabbing exclusions and policies that caters to only their point of interest. modi should drive hard on the fact, make in india is fine, but at no cost it can affect defence preparedness and/or choke points for us. must be black and white, transparent and open to public RTI.

imho, we should have this deals and opening for make in india in a separate agreement, and then defence deals in a separate agreement., of course the later should have a required former as predecesor, with clear clause on restrictions and controls.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 26 Sep 2014 23:20

The *main* event is next month, when AJ visits the US.

Even then there are ton of issues that both sides have to overcome. The best one can hope for and will probably get is the "Javelin". Potential is huge, but so are obstacles on both sides.

The meeting next month is attracting 4 cabinet level members - which is the key. For perhaps the very first time they will have both the Def and State in the same room - along with the Indian rep.

Let us see what happens. The outlook will be better towards the end of Oct.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 27 Sep 2014 04:21

PM Modi's US Visit: India eyes $1 billion Sikorsky helicopter deal, other US arms.

India is expected to choose Sikorsky Aircraft's S-70B Sea Hawk helicopters at a 16-aircraft tender worth over $1 billion, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The decision could come during a high-profile visit to the United States by Prime Minister Narendra Modi that starts on Friday.

The Sikorsky deal would be one of several large US arms purchases by India that are nearing completion, including over $2.5 billion in orders for Boeing Co's AH-64D Apache and CH-47 Chinook helicopters. Sikorsky Aircraft, a unit of United Technologies Corp , declined comment on the potential helicopter order.

Those deals could in turn lay the groundwork for a much larger order of 123 helicopters for the Indian Navy, said one of the sources, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

Boeing continues to negotiate with India on the Apache and Chinook helicopters and hopes to have signed contracts by the end of the year, said spokeswoman Caroline Hutcheson.

US industry executives are excited about possible opportunities in India but caution that such deals often take longer to negotiate than expected.

Boeing already has a huge presence in India due to its sales of P-8 maritime surveillance planes and C-17 transport planes. Modi is slated to meet with Boeing Chief Executive Jim McNerney during his US visit.

Boeing is due to deliver a sixth P-8I plane to India later this year, and two more next year. India may also exercise options for four additional P-8 aircraft next year, Boeing officials said.

The US unit of Britain's BAE Systems is also ready for talks with India about the possible sale of up to 145 of its M777 towed 155mm howitzer artillery pieces, a deal valued at up to $885 million.

Rahul Madhavan, senior manager for aerospace and defense at the US -India Business Council lobby group, said the Modi government appeared to be embracing the Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), which aims to increase collaboration on 17 specific defense projects.

"The Indian administration is taking this DTTI initiative forward and it is no longer perceived as just being a US centered type of affair, or a one-way street," he said. "The win-win situation is now more apparent for both sides.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 28 Sep 2014 09:14

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake 1h

#HAL sources tell Express that Light Combat Helicopter #LCH project is heading towards the expected Initial Operational Clearance #IOC.


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